Rape

[foolsgold]

I have a real simple question:

Why is prison rape considered, by many, a humorous subject? It is still forced, unconsentual sex, right?

For me, I don't see much humor in it (although, I confess I once did. Amazing what a near prison experience will do to turn a guy around). I've heard the arguement made that because these people committed some sort of crime, they are probably deserving of it and to me, that is akin to saying a woman deserved to be raped because she was wearing provacative clothes.

I dunno, it has been on my mind lately, for one reason or another. What are your thoughts?

[sadgirlseven]

i agree with you. it's not funny. it's scary for a lot of people who end up in prison. you pretty much have to try to protect yourself 24-7 while you're there.

i think what you said is spot on. yeah.

[butter_of_69]

Same mindset that spawns 3 strikes and you're out probably finds it funny. I think you hit it near the head by saying that people feel that when you go to prison you get "what you deserve" since you committed some crime to get there (although the incarcerated innocent seem to be forgotten somewhere along the line).

That being said, in the right context, nearly anything can be funny. This is the same board that once had a thread devoted to dead baby jokes.

[postfeminist]

I agree; rape is never humorous, and for several years now, i've been saying that i wish movies would warn you when there is a rape scene. i think of any number of films i've gone into the theater to see and had no idea what i was going to find-- Leaving Las Vegas comes to mind-- and ended up being VERY upset by a rape scene.

Prison rape is something I don't know much about, but i certainly don't find it amusing...inhumane treatment by humans to other humans is rarely funny to me, and while i don't have any statistics on the frequency of rapes perpetrated in prison, i am sure that it's probably way more often than we'd like to think (since i'd like to think it never happens).

we live in a rape culture. we're taught to think that we deserve it, and that's not ok-- just as i'm sure that "weaklings" in prison are conditioned to think they deserve it too.

[Duemellon]

but what about the S&M Homosexual nympho who wants to be in prison to get raped?

Ok, horrible "pseudo-joke".

Hey, I have rarely considred the actual effect of a prison rape. When I meet someone who's actually been in jail I find myself fighting the urge to put them into the category of "bitch" or "butch". Amazing how these "jokes" can introduce a thought pattern into our minds about the behaviors & capabilities of an individual. Amazing.

And also... imagine that...
The stereotype feeds the behavior.

I feel like I can take this somewhere, ... but I'm trying to recall what stereotypes of behavior would be analogous

heh, I said "anal"ogous.

sorry, trying to be serious about the subject. Too many jokes in my mind regarding. I'm acknowledging that and trying to comprehend the truth, but it's hard with all these anectodes and stories

[BigSugar]

"NEXT.....and what are your qualifications...."
"Cattle russlin', murder, rape, stampeding, rape....."
"Wait...you said rape twice!?"
"I like rape....."
"Kinky....here are your badges...."
Blazing Saddles

that clever reparte aside, my brother spent 29 months i jail in the late 80's and spent some of that time fighting to, as he put it, "keep his ass cherry".....pretty nasty thought when it comes down to it....one time he actually got into a shiv fight and was cut pretty bad on the arm (about 30 stitches worth)....he stabbed the rapist in the gut with his shiv and left him there for the guards.....needless to say, he didn't talk about it much when he got out.....to the day he died, he wouldn't tell me whether that guy lived or died....

[Juliana]

Savage Love (http://www.theonionavclub.com/savage.php?savage_id=22) this week deals with rape. here's the link from the onion av club page. Hope it works

[MonkeyGirl]

Originally posted by postfeminist
i think of any number of films i've gone into the theater to see and had no idea what i was going to find-- Leaving Las Vegas comes to mind-- and ended up being VERY upset by a rape scene.

Yeah, that is one that really disturbed me as well.
I don't find any form of rape humorous and don't think anyone really deserves it. That excludes one person-my ex-husband who happens to be a convict. I've been known to wish him to be "someone's bitch" is prison as much as I'd wish he'd just overdose already. But that's cause he's really a piece of shit person. I still don't find it humorous...I dunno.

[Bronzetree]

I disagree. There ARE some people that deserve to be raped. Those who have raped. Especially as it concerns child molestation. Some fucker raped my niece when she was eight and is still serving time almost twelve years later. I hope his asshole is big enough to drive a truck through by this point.

[lawdog]

I see your point, Bronze. Really, I do. And at a gut level, I agree, insofar as I feel no sympathy for a rapist or child molester who is a victim of prison rape. Those guys are usually the ones who are picked on the most in prison, though, and guards often look the other way, based on this same attitude. However, I wonder if that isn't a counterproductive attitude: shouldn't we try to protect or shield these particular people from being raped in prison? I say this because I wonder if being a victim while in prison makes a person more likely to recidivate upon his release.

I don't have any statistics or studies on this, but here's my reasoning: Most people will tell you that rape is a crime of power, not of sex (child molestation may differ). Rapists are rapists because they enjoy the feeling of power and control. Might being on the other end of such an exchange only increase the feelings of disempowerment that drove them to become rapists in the first place, and make them more likely to do it again? I don't know, but it seems like it might. Alternatively, knowing what it feels like to be a victim might make them feel some empathy towards their victims, but I doubt it. If you're a rapist, empathy and compassion are surely two traits that you do not possess.

I don't know what the answer is. I just know that prison rape troubles me, for that reason (and not because I feel bad for the poor imprisoned rapists). (Of course, if you made a rape conviction a mandatory life sentence, recidivism wouldn't be a problem, but that's whole other can of worms).

[yoshomon]

Originally posted by Bronzetree
I disagree. There ARE some people that deserve to be raped. Those who have raped. Especially as it concerns child molestation. Some fucker raped my niece when she was eight and is still serving time almost twelve years later. I hope his asshole is big enough to drive a truck through by this point.

Does the man who did that deserve a shitload of pain? yes. Nothing anyone does to him will even compare to the trauma he caused your niece.

That said, him getting raped in prison will most likely make him even more dangerous when he gets out. For any adult man to rape a girl like that they have to be more than just a little wrong in the head - child molestation should have a mandatory 25 year prison sentence then life in an asylum.

What if they set up leper colonies for child rapists?

(edit: Lawdog said this a lot better than I did)

[solomon]

I disagree. There ARE some people that deserve to be raped. Those who have raped. Especially as it concerns child molestation. Some fucker raped my niece when she was eight and is still serving time almost twelve years later. I hope his asshole is big enough to drive a truck through by this point.

So you are eye for an eye then? I'm not against that necessarily, but would you be for having rape actually being an official part of his sentence? Why make it implicit?

So she is 18 now? Don't you think its horrible that she, the victim, is actually paying the costs of his meals and incarceration?

Sol

[Sovrana]

Originally posted by solomon
So she is 18 now? Don't you think its horrible that she, the victim, is actually paying the costs of his meals and incarceration?



the costs you mention here are so incredibly minute against the costs she has already paid...making your statement incredibly insensitive.

what's your option? freedom so he can pay his own rent? :confused:

[watusi]

Originally posted by Sovrana



the costs you mention here are so incredibly minute against the costs she has already paid...making your statement incredibly insensitive.




i couldn't agree more. as someone who had another someone who was very close to me experiance this as a child, at the hand of a family member no less, i can tell you the pain never,ever goes away. one does not get over it.
and i also experianced first hand that when you are close to a person who is dealing with this, you yourself become a victim of it. we spent many nights talking,crying,screaming at ghosts to no avail.
it becomes easy to adopt the eye-for-an-eye response to it. even though i know that it may not be the most healthy way to deal with it, i can't help but still want to kill the bastard that inflicted this lifetime of pain on another.

[Bronzetree]

I, personally, have no idea how my niece feels about the situation. She's never brought it up, nor are we close. I don't know if the rape had anything to do with it, but she's kept most family at arm's length for years. For a while, she fell in with the wrong crowd (though doesn't hang with them anymore), barely graduated high school and now, at 20 years old, has 2 children with 2 different guys and changes jobs like I change underwear. She's inherently a good kid, but makes some horrible choices. I tried everything I could to help her get on the right track and she kept pushing me away, so I said fuck it, and let her do things her way. Figured she'd learn some life lessons that way. Who she is as a person, I don't even know, really. That's why I don't know how the rape has affected her. Doesn't change how I feel about the scumbag who did this, though. A person we all knew and never would have expected it from.

And yes, I'm an eye for eye kind of guy. People can sit here and wax sociology with me about how raping a rapist might make him more liable to do it again when he gets out, but what about the fact that he's hanging out in a large, enclosed building for extended lengths of time with a bunch of other people who think it's OKAY to rape, kill and steal? Sounds like the perfect environment for positive reinforcement to me.

[solomon]

the costs you mention here are so incredibly minute against the costs she has already paid...making your statement incredibly insensitive.

what's your option? freedom so he can pay his own rent?


I think maybe you misunderstood me. My point was that it's really fucked up that, adding insult to injury, not only does she suffer the scars and memories of what happened, but she also is paying for his incarceration and meals in taxes.

Sol

[Sovrana]

Again, these costs are so small, in fact sometimes welcomed since what comes with it is a certain sense of security.

However, to better address this through an elaboration of your idea sol:

There is a certain frustration that could come with this. Not the issue of money but a thought that the rapist is now in a secured environment: meals, clothing, housing, and even healthcare without having to be concerned about losing these basic essentials.

It is not unusual for the victim to continue her or his life in a storm of instability. As with Bronze's niece...her seemingly inability to keep a job may be reflected in most aspects of her life....an inability to commit to certain things or people due to fear. With this, she as well as many victims will struggle for a stable life that insures the basic essentials that the rapist has just by being incarcerated! Again, it's not the money as much as it is a continuous struggle to see this as fair.

On a different point that has been repeated here...the wish by many who know a victim, that the rapist was dead.

This is a common and understandably powerful sentiment yet here is something that may surprise many of you who are incredibly supportive of the victim.

Oftentimes the vicitm may not wish the death of her or his rapist. Sure, she or he may agree with you as a way to soothe YOUR anger but death is not usually considered an option and I think this is why:

From the moment of the rape, the victim feels responsible and generally holds a sense of responsibility from this point on. She or he may not continue to believe "this was all my fault" as the literature states, but I think the victim who will live with this for the rest of her or his life will continually ask the question, "what could I have done to avoid this?"

With this haunting question, the thought of death to the rapist is seen as blood on the victim's hands, because the victim will almost always feel a sense of responsibility (however small) no matter how much she or he knows the rapist was the one who performed this violent act.

Just a couple thoughts for those of you trying to understand or help those you care about with this pain.

[Duemellon]

Wow, talk about a statement that will alienate me from 99% of the group... here comes Due with a completely askew point...

Rape, of any kind, is horrible and shouldn't be done whatsoever.

Rape is specifically defined for those above a specific age as a physical assualt against their will. If the older individual is incapacitated, and unable to judge properly, it can be considered rape with further extenuating evidence.

When it comes to child molestation we lump it under the horrible title of "rape." Yes, there are incidents where children have been forced into it, and there are times they were incapacitated, but there were also times that children were experimenting, confused, or coerced through suggestion and manipulation.

I make the distinction because of our issue with sex in this society. As a child I experienced many different situations which, if I prescribed to society's definition of healthy sexual development, are extremely deviant and people should be in jail for. Yet, the bulk of the pain comes from the social stigma gnawing at my conscious, not the actual experience or it's aftermath.

Yes, some of the things were 'bad' some were 'good', but if I grow up and participate in society in a meaningful way, and ignore the stigma of it being a crime against morality, then I can function. When someone comes along and reminds me of "how bad it is when a child experiences sexual contact" before a certain age, I start feeling guilty, twisted, and such.

I believe our determination that any sexual contact with a child is inheirently damaging to that child is a blanket statement that causes a lot of the pain to the 'victim' because they're told they're weird, odd, bizarre, and a victim.

I really wished that we didn't need to show Elizabeth Smart's pic to find her, and my heart really goes out to her as she has probably done the same and justified situations in her mind as "stuff" but people around every corner will remind her how bad it was for her.

No, I'm not trying to suggest she was a willing participant, but I am suggesting that our society makes it worse.

[foolsgold]

I kind of see where you are going with this Due and it might be important to define what rape actually is. What is the difference between sexual assualt and rape in the eyes of the law?

[BigSugar]

Originally posted by foolsgold
What is the difference between sexual assualt and rape in the eyes of the law?

penetration, either digital penetration with fingers, or with the penis or another part of the body or object. the degree of rape depends upon the instrument used in many circumstances (ie: penile penetration = 1st degree rape, while digital penetration = third degree. age of the victim and of the perpetrator is also a factor in the determination of degree.

it's a little more complex than the above paragraph, but it's close enough for today's purposes class.

[eyeball]

I have a close friend in prison in Ely, NV. He has spent the last 12 years looking out for his "sweet spot" as he calls it. He tells me stories sometimes that would curl your hair... He will probably spend the rest of his life trying not to be someone's bitch and I hate that. I don't think its funny and I don't think he deserves it.

[bluewilco]

I don't know what I think about prison rape. I've laughed at movies that use it as a joke (Half Baked, for example), but I don't think I've ever thought about it (in serious context) as being as hostile as non-prison rape, which I know that it is. I guess I equate it to this; if you did something to be sent to federal pound you in the ass prison, you should be watching out for yourself--I didn't say it was right, and I don't think rape is any viable form of punishment, but since you did something to be sent up the river for (unless you've been hosed by the system--it happens), maybe watching out for your cornhole will make you think twice about ever going back to that place if you're lucky to get out.

[Duemellon]

So, BW, is this implying that prison rape is an unwritten but palatable part of their sentence? That if someone does a crime where they have to be locked up in a situation where rape is possible, that it is part of their correctional process?

What about dealing with the violence, threats, beatings, and brutality by the officials as well? Is that part of the implied sentence?

I'll tell you what ISN'T part of their sentence...

They have cable, a workout faciility, and a library w/o late-fees. That's my money going to them so they can watch cable. I don't have cable. I'm a perfectly model citizen (at this point in my life) without it. I don't think cable and comfortable beds should be part of their correctional process.

Criminals do not stop being humans when they are convicted. They aren't magically returned to humanity when they are released. Our treatment of those who have committed crime and when through a correctional process is deplorable (especially since they've been "corrected" right?). One day I'll include freedoms for ex-cons and the humanity for prisoners...

but i'll have to admit I'll put their rights behind my personal struggles for freedom & equality for now.

[bluewilco]

Originally posted by Duemellon
So, BW, is this implying that prison rape is an unwritten but palatable part of their sentence? That if someone does a crime where they have to be locked up in a situation where rape is possible, that it is part of their correctional process?

What about dealing with the violence, threats, beatings, and brutality by the officials as well? Is that part of the implied sentence?

I'll tell you what ISN'T part of their sentence...

They have cable, a workout faciility, and a library w/o late-fees. That's my money going to them so they can watch cable. I don't have cable. I'm a perfectly model citizen (at this point in my life) without it. I don't think cable and comfortable beds should be part of their correctional process.



I'm not justifying anyone raping anybody, but I'm not going to feel sorry for them. That's not saying that I don't think anyone can't reform, or better themselves, but as the saying goes, you do the crime, you do the time...

I think prisons have gotten too nice. Inmates don't need TV, weights, etc...they don't deserve them. They lost that right when they infringed on someone else's rights. I miss the days of yore when prisons like Alcatraz existed. All inmates need is food, water, and other essentials during their sentence--they don't deserve any luxuries.

[eyeball]

Originally posted by bluewilco


I'm not justifying anyone raping anybody, but I'm not going to feel sorry for them. That's not saying that I don't think anyone can't reform, or better themselves, but as the saying goes, you do the crime, you do the time...

I guess I don't see where paying for your crime involves being raped. Say you (just pretend of course) decide to knock over a gas station...no gun...you get caught. land yourself in a state facility for 2 years. do you deserve to be ass raped for the next 2 years? I mean paying for your crime and all.

[Duemellon]

When someone is incarcerated, do we simply put them in a pen with other boys who don't play nice and let what happens happen? Or are we responsible for enforcing the laws even within those walls? Are they due basic human rights while in there?

What did they forfiet when they were busted for doing their crime?

Because of a stupid mistake someone made, or an intentional malady but then reformed, is the next 50 years of their life the continuation of their sentence?

Let's put the correction in the correction facility.