I'm ALLOWED to beg

[JohnnyRoyale]

My goodness.....


It's law: Panhandlers must register with city


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By Gregory Korte
The Cincinnati Enquirer


Starting next month, you'll need a license if you want to panhandle in Cincinnati.

City Council reversed itself on the issue Wednesday, passing an ordinance that would require street beggars to register with the Police Department.

Gone from the proposal is a plan to spend $50,000 in tax money for a social worker to help panhandlers stop panhandling. Instead, Downtown Cincinnati Inc. will pay for the social service program through assessments to downtown property owners.

Shifting those costs won the support of Councilman Chris Monzel, who voted against the registration scheme last week. The revised ordinance passed 5-3.

The ordinance is an attempt to rein in panhandlers, whose speech is constitutionally protected but whose aggressive tactics have scared away visitors to the city's downtown, according to downtown merchants.

Panhandlers would be required to obtain a free photo identification card from a health clinic. Panhandlers who break the law can have their registration revoked; after that, police can arrest panhandlers for begging without a license even if they haven't otherwise broken the law.

"If you can't ban it, the next best thing is to regulate it out of existence," said Councilman Pat DeWine, the main sponsor of the ordinance.

Critics of the plan remain convinced that licensing panhandlers could backfire and encourage more of them.

"I have a feeling that this could go down, ultimately, as one of the dumbest ideas ever to come out of City Council," said Councilman John Cranley. "The only people who would get a license are people who want to be in the permanent business of begging for money. There's no better evidence that City Council has lost touch with common sense."

Cranley said the ordinance would create a new "bureaucracy for begging." Joining him in voting against the ordinance were Y. Laketa Cole and Alicia Reece.

The revised ordinance also added a "sunset" provision, meaning that City Council would have to reauthorize the registration scheme after a year, so the city can evaluate how it's working.

"This proposal has been subjected to ridicule and derided as coddling, ineffective and wasteful; but I haven't seen anything come forward that's any better," said co-sponsor David Crowley.

Councilman James R. Tarbell weighed in: "To me, it's one of those things that nobody likes it, so it must be all right."

The Greater Cincinnati Coalition for the Homeless withdrew its support for the plan Wednesday, saying City Council seemed to be abandoning the "compassionate approach" that came with the $50,000 in city spending on a social service program for panhandlers.

"Ultimately, no one knows who is panhandling or why, but we do know this: Panhandlers are men, women and children whose needs are not being met," said Georgine Getty, director of the homeless coalition.




People will actually have a license to beg? WTF?
I'm curious if the guy at Reds' games with the sign that reads "Why lie? I just want beer!" will go and apply.

[Kwyjibo]

What horse's ass dreamed this one up?

Thank God my taxes don't pay for this sorta shit.

[Kittymld]

Ok, if they don't have a license they will be arrested. Does that entail going to jail or just a fine? Because if they're homeless at least in jail they have a dry place to sleep and 3 meals a day. And if it's a fine, how in the hell does the city expect them to pay it?

[BigSugar]

big freakin' hairy deal.....they have to get a free picture ID and wear it while they beg....whoopdefreakindo.....in the grand scheme of lifes worries, this falls somewhere in between jock itch and hangnails....

[lawdog]

I think you underestimate the nuisance of jock itch, sir.

[butter_of_69]

Flip side of that, I once got a hangnail and wondered "wow, the only thing worse than this would be panhandling without a license."

[Docta]

the idea is that begging to a point is within a person's first amendment rights, excessive begging is against the law. by requiring them to get a license we can track (arrest) the excessive beggars and outright arrest those without a license at all. the thought process is that many/most will not get a license so we can arrest more than we could before for the smallest infraction.

the other idea is that we can track the homeless/beggars in the city and provide them with necessary services to help them out of the gutter. it could also provide some data as to where these people are coming from and what lead them to this life.

[Sovrana]

"Docta?" the way this guy talks...sounds more like a teacher to me. ;)

[BigSugar]

good points....it just such a minimal impingement upon begging, as to amount to almost no impediment at all....

i've never understood the "free speech" argument behind begging either.....guess that's why i'm not on the Supreme Court....that an 10 million dollars in contributions to political parties....

Bobby Rehnquist, Bill's half-brother

[lawdog]

Good points, Doc. I'm just afraid that the cynic in me sees the scenarios in your first paragraph as more likely to occur than those in your second.

[Docta]

Originally posted by lawdog
Good points, Doc. I'm just afraid that the cynic in me sees the scenarios in your first paragraph as more likely to occur than those in your second.

me too dog, especially since they voted down funding for the additional social worker.

[Docta]

Originally posted by Sovrana
"Docta?" the way this guy talks...sounds more like a teacher to me. ;)

yuk yuk yuk
8-)

[Kwyjibo]

Originally posted by Docta
by requiring them to get a license we can track (arrest) the excessive beggars and outright arrest those without a license at all.

Exactly how are they going to track who is an excessive beggar, and who is not? You don't expect their going to report their "earnings" do you?

I say save your money on this program and help them find jobs. That's what they need, not a regulated forum for keeping themselves planted firmly in the gutter.

Besides, who's going to enforce the beggar licenses? I can't say there's ever been a cop around when I've been harassed by a panhandler.

The answer to the problem is pretty simple anyway, just stop giving them money.

kwyji'heybuddygotaquarteryeahcanIseeyourlicense'bo

[BigSugar]

"really, i'd give you a quarter, but i see you've failed utterly to walk the two blocks up the street to have your picture taken to get the FREE beggars license. Please play again tomorrow."

my next question Jason, is why in the hell are "we" charged with finding the beggars jobs (notice i didn't say homeless, b/c most of these guys have homes)? as a courtesy maybe, but if they can walk, and they can stand there for hours and hold a cup asking for cash, then they can damn well walk or catch one of the frequent busses to the local fast food joint and get a damn job themselves making $7.00/ hour.....and meals come free with the job too...two birds, one stone. unless of course they are just drunks wanting a handout.....but that's so rare with the homeless. maybe they just make way more begging than they would being productive members of society.

[Docta]

Originally posted by Kwyjibo


Exactly how are they going to track who is an excessive beggar, and who is not? You don't expect their going to report their "earnings" do you?


oops, sorry, when i say excessive i don't mean in how much they beg as a whole, but in how relentless they are with their "customers." it's a line between begging and harrassment. if they are wearing their badge and harrassing you, then you could report them i suppose.

[Duemellon]

it could also provide some data as to where these people are coming from and what lead them to this life. I think the more humane way would be to get some crackshots shots to load up a few camoflagued copters and shoot tranqs into the fleeing beggars and when they are sedated, place a metal band with a homing beacon on their ankle so we can track their movements through the concrete jungle.

Maybe then we'll understand how they feed, grow, and reproduce.

Yeah, making beggars register is a waste of time, a major inconvience for the casual beggar, but those of us with steady funds can sit back and relax.

Until we need $$ for a phone call or bus fare.

Of course, if a cop comes up to you and asks for your license, but you're dressed descently and explain that you really do NEED bus fare, they'll be lenient right? Maybe that's a test we can do.

Send 2 people, in obvious opposite demographics, and place them a distance away from each other, and each person tries to BEG their money away (instead, giving nickels, pennies, and such, to strangers after approaching them in the same "beggar's" modality). And see which one gets busted.

The one dressed affluently in demographic 1, or the other.

Kinda like performance art, u'kno?

[Kwyjibo]

I agree with you whole heartedly sug. My point was more along the lines of "if they have to waste their money on the panhandling problem that will never get resolved why don't they..." rather than "we owe them this....".

Docta, I don't disagree with you man, but I have yet to be stopped by a panhandler that could take no for an answer. I think, if you think about it, more of them are harassing than not.

[Docta]

Originally posted by Kwyjibo

Docta, I don't disagree with you man, but I have yet to be stopped by a panhandler that could take no for an answer. I think, if you think about it, more of them are harassing than not.

ya, and i am not quite sure yet how i even feel about this measure myself so..... i am just posing the arguments for it's merits or lack there of.

[postfeminist]

just keep in mind that national estimates have said that about 25% of the homeless are mentally ill (goodwill stats) and for the most part, unable to hold down a job. improved services for the mentally ill would help to alleviate some of these same issues...

[alternachild]

Originally posted by Duemellon
I think the more humane way would be to get some crackshots shots to load up a few camoflagued copters and shoot tranqs into the fleeing beggars and when they are sedated, place a metal band with a homing beacon on their ankle so we can track their movements through the concrete jungle.

Maybe then we'll understand how they feed, grow, and reproduce.

Yeah, making beggars register is a waste of time, a major inconvience for the casual beggar, but those of us with steady funds can sit back and relax.

Until we need $$ for a phone call or bus fare.

Of course, if a cop comes up to you and asks for your license, but you're dressed descently and explain that you really do NEED bus fare, they'll be lenient right? Maybe that's a test we can do.

Send 2 people, in obvious opposite demographics, and place them a distance away from each other, and each person tries to BEG their money away (instead, giving nickels, pennies, and such, to strangers after approaching them in the same "beggar's" modality). And see which one gets busted.

The one dressed affluently in demographic 1, or the other.

Kinda like performance art, u'kno?

I really do not understand you most of the time. Complete sentences and proper grammar always help.

[Duemellon]

bah! complete sentences are for my interoffice mail, not msgboarding!

[Kwyjibo]

Originally posted by postfeminist
just keep in mind that national estimates have said that about 25% of the homeless are mentally ill (goodwill stats) and for the most part, unable to hold down a job. improved services for the mentally ill would help to alleviate some of these same issues...

I agree with that completely, well played. My points have been to the fact that they're not solving the problem, just adding bureaucracy.

How does Cincinnati help panhandlers? They give them a form to fill out.

[Kwyjibo]

Originally posted by Duemellon
bah! complete sentences are for my interoffice mail, not msgboarding!

Besides, what does a malcontent like Due need with social interaction skills?

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
but I have yet to be stopped by a panhandler that could take no for an answer

kinda of like advertising?

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by BigSugar
maybe they just make way more begging than they would being productive members of society.

nail/head/hit

[Duemellon]

Besides, what does a malcontent like Due need with social interaction skills? I'm not a malcontent, I just see the miserable world we live in that you don't see.

and keep your pot-shot barbs to yourself!

[shivui]

i heard on the radio years ago that cincinnati wanted to pass a law that made it illegal for panhandlers to lie to you. now that's a joke.

btw, i have encountered many many people that take no for an answer.

i've actually wanted to go down to the skywalks and play guitar for a little extra change. i don't see a problem with it.

is anybody here really bothered by panhandlers? seriously? maybe i don't spend enough time in the city, but when i do it's not that bad.

i was sitting outside topcat's waiting for mike doughty to play when a lady came up to me and asked for some change. i gave her a dollar or something but she didn't leave. she asked why i was waiting and i told her about the show. she went on and on about how she hoped it wasn't metal, because she didn't like that and she wouldn't let her children listen to it. she even went on about her banged up ankle and how it hurt all the time. i kept asking myself why in hell this lady kept talking. she got what she wanted from me($$$), but as annoyed as i was, i started to realize she just wanted to talk. she probably didn't care who to or what about. she just wanted to talk, maybe for nothing more than to just hear herself mumble the words and have someone there who might be listening. as much as i was annoyed i thought it might have been more important to listen to her story than it was to give her a dollar. she could get a dollar from anyone.
of course then she could be an absolute freak and went to talk to the park bench after i left. who knows? i just thought i did something nice.

[Duemellon]

btw, i have encountered many many people that take no for an answer. to make a generalized statement regarding demographics:

It has been my experience that people unfamiliar with the territory are unable to say "no" to such people in an effective manner.

Beggars never bothered me, and if they did, they didn't for long.

Heh, I went downtown/w my gf and one of her guy-friends. He was some peacenick hippie kid with "love abounding" and respect for all life.

Well, that went out the window when some guy walked up to us and asked for change.

My gf cringed like she just found a dead squirrel in her bedroom, tucked herself behind me, and her friend literally jumped a lil' jump in the air, snapped his head around, quickened his pace, and huddled behind my gf.

Heh, I started laughing, the beggar started laughing, and everyone else around (there were a few ppl standing at the corner store) started making remarks.

Me? the only thing that scared me was how much of scene those people I was with were making.

[penelope22]

Cincy is ridiculous. Seriously..there are not enough "panhandlers" to even be concerned with harrassment. I mean of course the quarter guy in covington gets on my nerves. But give him a quarter for heavens sake! It's just like this city to have some crazy form to fill out that will result to nothing in the end. If follow through was met and there were measures taken to help people..that would be excellent. But I am pretty sure that this was put in effect for some uppity conservatives to make them feel better about themselves.

[Kwyjibo]

Originally posted by shivui

is anybody here really bothered by panhandlers? seriously?

Yeah, I'm bothered by them. My experiences with them have always been that, as I said before, they don't usually take no for an answer. I usually have to deal with them starting to yell for me from 50 feet away, following me all the way to my car, asking if I've got any money, not believing when I say no (and I hardly ever carry cash, and never change), then asking for a specific amount, then a smaller amount, then a smaller still amount, etc. Not to mention the few times I have given them something, they always ask for more. Several times I've had to endure all of that then having to endure them trying to sell me pot, beer, or porno movies. Once, a guy actually grabbed my hand and the little lady's and forced us to our knees and commenced to praying for our sins, and talking about how he wasn't afraid of this "white devil" etc. etc.

Yeah, I have a problem with them, I just want to get to my car and be left alone.

[Duemellon]

Yeah, I'm bothered by them.
...
I usually have to deal with them starting to yell for me from 50 feet away, following me all the way to my car
...
I've had to endure all of that then having to endure them trying to sell me pot, beer, or porno movies
...
Once, a guy actually grabbed my hand and the little lady's and forced us to our knees and commenced to praying for our sins, and talking about how he wasn't afraid of this "white devil" etc. etc. sorry, i laughed.

Tragic man, truly tragic.

Isn't it funny how social-conditioning affects our interactions with others?

I have never experienced things so dramatic, except when around certain other friends.

Heh. Funny stuff, funny.

[shivui]

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
Yeah, I'm bothered by them. My experiences with them have always been that, as I said before, they don't usually take no for an answer. I usually have to deal with them starting to yell for me from 50 feet away, following me all the way to my car, asking if I've got any money, not believing when I say no (and I hardly ever carry cash, and never change), then asking for a specific amount, then a smaller amount, then a smaller still amount, etc. Not to mention the few times I have given them something, they always ask for more. Several times I've had to endure all of that then having to endure them trying to sell me pot, beer, or porno movies. Once, a guy actually grabbed my hand and the little lady's and forced us to our knees and commenced to praying for our sins, and talking about how he wasn't afraid of this "white devil" etc. etc.
like i said i don't spend that much time downtown, but that sounds like a lot of bad luck.

[JohnnyRoyale]

Never had an experience as bad as Kwyjibo, but when I was real young I would give to them all the time. That all ended once when I really didn't have any change or money on me and the guy got a real attitude toward me and swore. Since then, I steer clear of them. Have all of the stupid parking meter cops in the town escort these people to the un-employment agency. It'll give them something better to do than writing useless tickets for people out doing something constructive with their lives.
What I do feel sorry for are the pets of these people. I can't stand seeing some dog lying on his side probably half-starved and thirsty stuck to a homeless person by way of leash.

[shivui]

that's messed up. i haven't been exposed to that.

[Duemellon]

what experiences! This is truly amazing. I have never experienced anything so dramatic in my years of working and travelling downtown.

I can't help but wonder what it is that I do that you don't do, or visa versa, that keeps me from such incidents.

un-fuckin'-believable stuff.

[Kwyjibo]

Originally posted by Duemellon
I can't help but wonder what it is that I do that you don't do, or visa versa, that keeps me from such incidents.


We are outside of our houses after dark, and in large gatherings. You know, things you wouldn't know about.

The more people there are in a place the more bums there are wanting a hand out.

[foolsgold]

Originally posted by Duemellon
what experiences! This is truly amazing. I have never experienced anything so dramatic in my years of working and travelling downtown.

I can't help but wonder what it is that I do that you don't do, or visa versa, that keeps me from such incidents.

un-fuckin'-believable stuff.

I was wondering the exact same thing. Maybe I'm just very lucky or totally oblivious to those throngs of meany panhandlers.

[Kwyjibo]

Now wait a minute. I never said I had them hanging off of me in bunches like bananas, but I do have to deal with a couple everytime I go downtown. And they can never take no for an answer. I never said anything about there being "throngs" of them.

I can't be the only one that gets hassled by bums.

[Juliana]

I can vouch for the guy who made us pray with him. He wouldn't let go of my hand. It freaked me out a little, especially the white devil comments. Then I remembered that I'm technically hispanic (ethnically speaking of course), so I hoped that I wasn't the target, so I relaxed and said a silent goodbye to Kwyj. Then I remembered that I can't drive his car, so I'd be stuck downtown, while having to wait for my parents to come get me, so I got nervous again.

[Duemellon]

Then I remembered that I'm technically hispanic (ethnically speaking of course), so I hoped that I wasn't the target. nah, when someone is being racist they use thier stereotypes to categorize, not actual-factual data. So, nice try, but I'm sure he meant you too.
We are outside of our houses after dark, and in large gatherings. You know, things you wouldn't know about. sorry, being the dungeon-dwelling troll I am, I have no knowledge of such things. You're right, my limited experience of working for years downtown and going to games & bars doesn't count. I'll crawl back into my cave.[victim alert] someone explain to me what I said that sparked such ire? God, this is ridiculous [/victim alert] I can't be the only one that gets hassled by bums. "bums", such a harsh term. Try "panhandler" or "beggar" there's more of an old-world charm to it. Maybe try "alternative social-assistance seeker" or "small-time solicitor for a sole-beneficiary charity".

I think, actually, it's ur definition of unbearable harassment. I had to think about it, but I am frequently approached by such people, but I doesn't bother me as much as it appears to bother you. Could this be a disparity in viewpoint? or is it more tertiary and my interactions or mannerisms reduce the likelihood of being so malaciously harassed? (personally I think it's more the external than the perception).

Many of them harass people they feel they can influence into giving them money, or inspiring fear. One gets them what they seek, the other gives them a sense of importance. They get neither from me. How am I so different?

[Kwyjibo]

Originally posted by Duemellon
[victim alert] someone explain to me what I said that sparked such ire? God, this is ridiculous [/victim alert]

"bums", such a harsh term. Try "panhandler" or "beggar" there's more of an old-world charm to it. Maybe try "alternative social-assistance seeker" or "small-time solicitor for a sole-beneficiary charity".

You're not a victim Due, you can jab, why can't you take a jab now and then? You don't exactly come off as the type of person that spends much time outside of the nerdery.

I refuse to be PC about bums, but I do like your alternates, that's really nice.

[Duemellon]

You're not a victim Due, you can jab, why can't you take a jab now and then? I do from MNeck, and a select few, but when such "jabs" escalate so quickly to hateful flame wars, it makes a person weary, u'kno? It scares those casual posters with the occassional urge to contribute.

So, sorry if I overreacted to your verbal pugalism, but I'm a little tender now, be gentle and get me some BenGay.