Alert

[shivui]

anyone notice that we as americans seem to be in more danger of attack since dubya's been the boss?

i'm not saying anything, i'm wondering why i'm suddenly supposed to feel threatened all the time.

any thoughts you political beasts?

[alternachild]

Ever heard of 9-11?

It really seems like many people will find anything to hate Bush. I do not favour him either, but this is ridiculous.

[tobedawg]

Ever heard of 9-11?

Ever heard of the Iran Contra Affair? Ever heard of the Bush Families ties to the Bin Ladens? By the way, Where is Osama Bin Laden? Where is Saddam Hussein? Where are those orgasmic "Weapons of Mass Destruction"?..

[alternachild]

It seemed he was just asking why we are in danger right now, at the same time that Bush is our president. I think it could be anyone in office and we'd be in danger of terrorist attacks. If that is not what he was referencing, then I apologise.

I DID say I don't favour the Bushes, so I already covered that base.

[tobedawg]

Sorry Alternachild!! Didn't mean for my post to sound so brash.

I got home from work and I guess I'm on my nightly rag. So I apologize:(

[alternachild]

Nightly ra.......nevermind. :p Remember sarcasm does not translate well over the internet.

[Duemellon]

we have always been under attack from terrorists.

Klan, Militia, basic nutcases, coherent plans, and inconsistent unrelated attacks,...

terrorists have been in our midst since the declaration of this land as a European-based nation.

I doubt we'd all be as regularaly terrified if Bush wasn't in office. Even AFTER 9/11. Sure, we'd have that "heightened" state of "don't let it happen again", but really? 4 times in the orange in 14 months?

The Iraqi highlight footage making time is over. We are eager to go back to our quiet lives earning what little money is available, and forgetting that we are in a state of emergency. Thanks to the administration we are able to stay focused on being terrorized by our own govn't.

Aren't you glad we kicked out the Taliban?
oh.. don't forget we're at war..
Now we're invading Iraq. Aren't you glad we're doing something about your fears?
yay! the govn't is protecting us.
Now the Iraqi invasion is over, aren't you glad we confronted them?
oh.... don't forget we're still at war...
Set the warning to HIGH to show them we're still dilligent.

terror, terror, terrible

[monkey neck]

Originally posted by Duemellon
Thanks to the administration we are able to stay focused on being terrorized by our own govn't.

:rolleyes:

Due....ah, hell. It's no use. Nevermind.

[Duemellon]

yes yes, MNeck, our govn't isn't flying planes into buildings, but they're causing terror? right?

[monkey neck]

Originally posted by Duemellon
yes yes, MNeck, our govn't isn't flying planes into buildings, but they're causing terror? right?

Tell me, how is our government causing terror? Can't you just see it for what it is? They have the security levels to warn us that there may be danger coming our way and to protect you and me with higher security at sensitive locations. Why do think it's some ploy by W to exert his control over all of his Americanlings?

[Huxley]

Originally posted by Duemellon
yes yes, MNeck, our govn't isn't flying planes into buildings, but they're causing terror? right?

i just thought it was fox news. Hey, do you think Fox news will hire the guy the new york post fired last week for plagerism? I mean its a step up from giraldo isn't it?

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by Huxley


i just thought it was fox news. Hey, do you think Fox news will hire the guy the new york post fired last week for plagerism?

NY Times.

[Huxley]

pardon me, thanks for looking out. I still think he'd be a good fit.

[classicgrrl]

I think we have more to fear from inside than out. always have.

una+bomber

[Duemellon]

They're coming, be careful; look out; keep on your toes; go about your daily business but be aware you may be a target; code "orange"; terrorists are still active; we are seeking suspects; believe in us to protect you because no one else can; watch your neighbor they may be AlQ; look for odd behavior; report odd behavior; report suspicious settings, devices, abandoned bags, and mail; keep in contact with your local law enforcment; we are tracking you for your protection; we are tracking your neighbor for your protection; we are asking you to keep an eye out for these generally described appearances; remember there are terrorists in our midsts waiting for the opportunity; we are at an elevated level; expect delays and random inspections; compliance is more important than comprehension of the facts; security is more important than intellectual liberties; patriotism is more important that cynicism; your President is synomous with your hero; dissenters are the enemies to your livelihood; remember 9-11; remember the Cole; remember who was on the planes; remember who wishes they were on the planes; remember we are under attack; remember we are fighting a battle which can have no clear victory versus an army without a flag throughout all corners of existance every hour of every day and you are the target of these evil men

How much of that is true?

If I told you that I would protect you from mosquitoes by watching over your sleeping body in the middle of a swamp, do you think I could?

If I told you that you should personally trust me to personally protect you from crime while I'm busy guarding my own home, do you trust me?

Why do people want to believe the government can protect us from an enemy they truly can't find and is everywhere, and does what they can whenever they can?

Terrorism is not just the grandiose destruction of bombs, hijaackings, and infernos. The DC Sniper shut down the city killing one person a day. The Son of Sam shut down NY. SARS shut down Toronto. Terrorism is the way we feel now, we are terrified, skittish, looking over our shoulders, changing our lifestyles, and asking our government for protection.

Meanwhile, our government throws in terrifying statements here and there, like campfire ghost-stories, and crying "wolf". There really is nothing our government can do to stop domestic terrorism on a small scale. There really is no way for us to protect ourselves.

[monkey neck]

Whatever, Due. It's my opinion that most people know the government can't filter out all of the "evil doers" and some will get through to accomplish their mission. I obviously could be wrong, because I'll concede that I thought most people don't associate Saddam directly with 9-11 (Although I still have doubts about the accuracy of some of those polls).

Due, I'm sincerely not trying to make this a personal thing, but you and a few others here strike me as the type that if we didn't have the warning system in place and an attack happened, you'd say "Why didn't the populace know about this? You heard 'chatter' that an attack was imminent. Don't keep this information under wraps." Nothing the government does will be right by you.

[Duemellon]

Due, I'm sincerely not trying to make this a personal thing, but by it's nature that statement is personal.

Here's how the scenerio of a successful terrorist attack plays out with our alert system:

Let's say the govn't elevates it to Red, which not only means there is DEFINITELY an imminent attack, but that it is HUGE and CATASTROPHIC in it's effects.

The government gets as specific as it can, tell people to go about their daily lives, but avoid airports, nuclear facilities, and high-profile targets.

Boom, boom, boom, and boom. Four different terrorist explosions occur in a school, business office, Florida government building, and a resturant. A few dozen dead, hundreds wounded. Government responds with explanation about how the unpredictable nature of terrorist plots cannot prevent all attacks, but without the warning in place the response would've been slower and more casualties would have taken place.

...

Without the warning system.

Everyone goes to about their business as usual. The government issues it's appropriate warning to their agencies and related services, but don't release such a thing publicly.

Boom, boom, boom, and boom.

Same number killed? Right? Wasn't everyone going about their business as usual in model A as in model B? Wouldn't the same number of people be in the same spot?

In both scenerios both agencies would be prepared for some attack, and the response would be quicker than usual.

===
What does it benefit the govn't to have us on our toes and paranoid? We aren't trained professionals. We won't exactly return to our pre-9/11 behaviors at this point anyway. Our self-defense will more likely lead to incorrect leads, false accusations, and hieghtened tensions between neighbors.

no, i don't think I'd be upset if we had no "warning" system and an attack happened. The warning system doesn't make us more self-empowered.

[Sovrana]

Originally posted by Huxley
pardon me, thanks for looking out. I still think he'd be a good fit.

The Washington Post fired a writer for plagiarism as well.

NY Time + Washington Post = NY Post?:)

[RichmondVA]

Originally posted by Duemellon
no, i don't think I'd be upset if we had no "warning" system and an attack happened. The warning system doesn't make us more self-empowered.

So you'd rather have the government have some sort of secret code to protect it's own agencies and employees, and NOT alert the public about the situation?:rolleyes:

[Duemellon]

to protect it's own agencies and employees, conjecture, inferred, not what I said. But oh well, that's what you want to take it as, no need to go down THAT road.

[RichmondVA]

I'm not infering a thing. That is exactly what you said in your post.

Without getting into the politics of the war, is there any doubt that attacking Iraq increases the likelihood of attack against us?

The codes are directed primarily towards government agencies and border personnel. Local, state, and federal agencies have protocols for increased security measures depending on the code.
Which means that you might not be able to travel abroad, visit the Washington monument, or even travel on the DC metro that runs through the Pentagon.

You stated yourself that the codes put government agencies on heightened alert. That increased security may affect your daily life. If the government does something that affects you, shouldn't they notify you?

[Duemellon]

what you said, and what I said were 2 different things...

we, the general populace, should not be informed of every terror threat possible because WE are not capable of stopping them.

the agencies involved need to be alerted, repeatedly, and such. They need to be on the alert system.The codes are directed primarily towards government agencies and border personnel. and no, that's not true. These codes are directed towards ALL people in the US. That's the reason they were put in place, and that's what they're for. That's why they're presented in the fashion they are.

When was the last time you were aware of what DefCon level we were at?

U dont really need to kno? do you? Because if you DID know it COULD effect your daily life? See, the govn't CAN keep secrets.

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by Duemellon
we, the general populace, should not be informed of every terror threat possible because WE are not capable of stopping them.

Duemellon--what is your opinion on weather reports?

Actually, I haven't been following this debate, so I'm not sure who's arguing what. Carry on.............

[RichmondVA]

If there's a code red, you won't be able to travel abroad. If you have children, there's a good chance their school will be closed. Even under code orange, many airports increase security, including removing e-ticket self check-ins and requiring more id's when travelling domestically. These things all affect the general populace.

Like slow-dog said, even if you can't alter the situation, you can plan around it.

[monkey neck]

Originally posted by Duemellon
but by it's nature that statement is personal.

Understood, and you have my apologies, I'm not trying to flame, here. (yeah I know, I'm moody. And I see I use commas, way, too, much.)

Thanks for your clarification about your feelings about the warning levels, because you do have a very valid point. There is not much we can do. But we are a society that wants to know what the heck is going on. Personally, I think the warning system benefits us. That's my 2 cents, whatever it's worth.

[Duemellon]

no, the involvement of the citizenry is directly called for. Citizens are not just feeling the effects of hightened security, they BECOME the security.

As for inconveniences due to elevated or high security risk, why do we need to be told? Why does a credible threat in NY effect air travel in Waikiki? Is this our method to protect ourselves from terror by telling everyone to become ultra-sensative when threats happen? to become fearful and invaded by our security teams? To demand the average citizen put themselves in harm's way in the name of "defying the terrorist attempts at terrorizing" but at the same time be anxious, suspicious, edgy?

I dont kno why i bothered to look this up, I'm sure that even though these are straight from the horse's mouth, it doesn't matter. This is to refute the tangent argument of "the citizens do not participate according to the levels" and "the levels are only for govn't agencies"...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020910-5.html
As we have been forced to do in the past, today we once again call on the American people to remain alert, but defiant in the face of this new threat. We are not -- we are not recommending that events be cancelled, nor do we recommend that individuals change domestic travel plans or that the federal work force not report to duty. We are not making those recommendations. read: So please, continue to be in harms way as a show of defiance. Thanks.This call, which Americans have heard before, is based on specific intelligence that heightened awareness and readiness deters terrorism. Each of us has the ability to increase the security that we need -- security for ourselves, security for our families, and security for our communities. Today we call on Americans to exercise this responsibility with special care and vigilance.Simply being aware you're about to be blown up will keep you from being blown up. That's logic enough for ME!The nation's Homeland Security Advisory System provides a national framework to inform and facilitate decisions appropriate to different levels of government and to private citizens, either in the workplace or at home. and to private citizens.... and to private citizens,... one goal of the HSAS is to reach the private citizens,... why do they need to tell the private citizens about something the govn't takes care of? I guess we'll see... At the very least, we want to ensure that security is more visible, as a part of deterring terrorist activity.That only deturrs terrorism against civilian targets, not govn't or military. Heh, the terrorists are already expecting such a thing for govn't/mil.I know we've called on them before, but the Attorney General, the FBI Director, and I see on a fairly regular basis what happens with citizen involvement when they are extra vigilant, extra careful, when they become very alert to suspicious activity. We're going to call on them to maintain that high level of awareness. As the Attorney General said, be alert, but be defiant. Let's make sure that every individual citizen who sees something suspicious reports it, to either the Joint Terrorism Task Force or the local law enforcement. no more watching your shoes, or pretending you didn't see that guy with the ticking breifcase and the long beard. Nope, can't just pass them by anymore. Oh, but when the level is at Yelo, or Green, you can ignore them.Now, beyond these very, very important steps, our advice to America as we engage the local law enforcement, the state law enforcement, the private sector, as we engage everyone who has critical responsibilities to reduce vulnerabilities and protect our homeland, our advice to America is to continue with your plans.let's look up what "critical responsibilities" are for the private sector. CEO of a large company or sole-proprietorship of a gun store?I might add that I don't think America needs to be reminded that we are at war. However, this announcement is a reminder that there are people around the world who would do us harm. And our response is to continue to be America, but to be alert, to be vigilant. We have persevered through this, we'll persevere now, and ultimately we will prevail. Ask England if they walk around with an alert regarding terrorist attacks after centuries of them. They've prevailed... and they're still prevailing. Their terrorists haven't stopped yet!

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020312-1.htmLow Condition
Green
Low risk of terrorist attacks. The following Protective Measures may be applied:

Refining and exercising preplanned Protective Measures
Ensuring personnel receive training on HSAS, departmental, or agency-specific Protective Measures; and
Regularly assessing facilities for vulnerabilities and taking measures to reduce them.

Guarded Condition
Blue
General risk of terrorist attack. In addition to the previously outlined Protective Measures, the following may be applied:

Checking communications with designated emergency response or command locations;
Reviewing and updating emergency response procedures; and
Providing the public with necessary information.

Elevated Condition
Yellow
Significant risk of terrorist attacks. In addition to the previously outlined Protective Measures, the following may be applied:

Increasing surveillance of critical locations;
Coordinating emergency plans with nearby jurisdictions;
Assessing further refinement of Protective Measures within the context of the current threat information; and
Implementing, as appropriate, contingency and emergency response plans.

High Condition
Orange
High risk of terrorist attacks. In addition to the previously outlined Protective Measures, the following may be applied:

Coordinating necessary security efforts with armed forces or law enforcement agencies;
Taking additional precaution at public events;
Preparing to work at an alternate site or with a dispersed workforce; and Restricting access to essential personnel only.

Severe Condition
Red
Severe risk of terrorist attacks. In addition to the previously outlined Protective Measures, the following may be applied:

Assigning emergency response personnel and pre-positioning specially trained teams; Monitoring, redirecting or constraining transportation systems;
Closing public and government facilities; and
Increasing or redirecting personnel to address critical emergency needs.
just for the written-definition/principles

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020312-14.htmlAnd most importantly, it empowers government and citizens to take actions to address the threat. For every level of threat, there will be a level of preparedness. It is a system that is equal to the threat. again, empowering citizens. Empowering them to be pushed around by new security measures? or actually encouraging them to be active?Now, for the moment, for the time being, as we are developing this system with our state and local partners, these protective measures will apply solely to the federal government. In time, they will apply to all levels of government, every community, and hopefully, with buy-in from the private sector, the companies in the private sector, as well. then why dont you keep it to yourself? Oh, that's right, "private sector", sorry.We anticipate and hope that businesses and hospitals and schools, even individuals working with their community leaders to develop the local plan, will develop their own protective measures for each threat condition. This system is designed to encourage them to do just that. this was stated in reference to "orange/high" leve, u'kno, the one we're at now.The Homeland Security Advisory System also allows us to designate a threat condition for the entire nation or a portion of this country. If we received a credible threat at one of our national monuments, obviously, the Secretary would be very interested in that -- it could be designated orange, while the rest of the country remained at yellow. that's nice, could you guys try that... once? just once? instead of putting all 50 states and territories on alert? yeah yeah, of course I don't know about the alerts you didn't announce, but really, getting us all to walk on eggshells because of this?Now, we will not mandate -- the federal government cannot mandate the use of this system. As the name implies, it is advisoryah, the secret behind it. It's not law, it's a suggestion. Not an official alert, but it is... uh... somewhere in between.

(part 1)

[Duemellon]

The Homeland Security Advisory System is designed to encourage partnerships. And this can't be emphasized and reiterated enough. The system is designed to encourage partnerships between the public and the private sectors, between all levels of law enforcement and public safety officials, and between -- and among all levels of government. between who and who? just govn't and govn't? nope, looks like private sector gets another shoutout.Our emerging national homeland security strategy will rely on the anti-terrorism plans of all 50 states and the territories. But there are 3,300 counties and parishes, and there are about 18,000 cities. So we all need to work together to coordinate and collaborate our effort to be prepared. Working together is the only way this system will work. It's the only way we can have a national system. so, to not assist, comply, commit, to it is to be the "weak link". Don't be the "weak link" y'hear?It often starts with one doctor, one police officer, one eyewitness. They are America's eyes and ears. And we must work to get that information from the grass roots to government in as quick a time as possible. WHOOT! again with the direct association with the private citizenry.However, we should not expect a V-T day, a victory over terrorism day anytime soon. But that does not mean Americans are powerless against the threat. On the contrary, ladies and gentlemen, we are more powerful than the terrorists. We can fight them not just with conventional arms, but with information and expertise and common sense; with freedom and openness and truth; with partnerships born from our cooperation. If we do, then like the men and women who fought Nazism and Fascism 60 years ago, our outcome will be equally certain: victory for America, and safety for Americans. the "we" creating the victory is the people, not the government, "we" are the ones being charged with this task.But, as I said before, we're asking all federal departments and agencies make this system work immediately, integrate their plans into this advisory system, and work with us over the next 135 days to a final system. it is well passed those 135 days now.

When the alert goes up, it is YOUR job to protect us as a private citizen. This is not simply something the govn't does and it adversely affects us. We are directly annointed with the responsibility.

Just paruse (as if i spelled that right) the site, read what you will. I'm sure you'll say I'm manipulating this or that because you'll claim "out of context" or "highlighting the negative", so go ahead. But that is what I see in addition to the other things.

Fear. How to make you and me fear.

[shivui]

somehow when i started this thread i was unable to put the 9/11 thing and bush together. that does make sense but hear me out here. 9/11 spawned this great united america theme that pulsed through the nation. that feeling ended quite a long time ago, but the fear never went away. i guess for me it just doesn't add up.

taking it back to what it's about. this is becoming a psychological thing. i don't watch tv or listen to the radio that much. i lead a simple life of going to work, listening to music and enjoying life's pleasures. once and again i read the newspaper or i hear a little snippet of the news. sometimes i hear that our warning level has increased. hearing that makes me think that i should be in fear of something. why?
first of all, this is a perfect example of the boy that cried wolf. i already think this whole warning system is a crock. i guess it was designed to help, but really. what am i going to do? jack, that's what. i don't fly, but if i do... am i going to stop someone from bringing a box cutter on board? nope. the only thing i can manage is to take the plane down like the few men did on 9/11. lets face it, it's over for me anyway. not a whole lot i could do there.
when you constantly warn people you make them scared. this has nothing to do with politics now. this is just human nature. when people get scared they overreact. they make bad choices. just ask the members of god speed you black emperor. they got arrested for being alleged terrorists. that's a frikin joke. now you might say that one day someone will do that and we really will catch a terrorist, but do you think the people who's lives are made more complicated are going to agree?

recently there has been some breakins at work. cds and players have been stolen. i was lucky. the day my fellow driver's cd collection was snatched, i was leaving my car unlocked with easily four hundred cds in it. do you know how heartbroken i would've been had they been stolen? yes i know it would've been my fault. but don't you think it makes me a little edgy? sure does. i leave the store and i'm constantly eyeing people, making sure no one's being suscipious(kinda like a terrorist, eh?). there are people back where we park ALL the time that look like they're up to something. i couldn't report them all hoping someone will turn up with my coworker's loot. i do lock my car and roll up my windows now, but i refuse to be afraid of someone breaking in and stealing my things. if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. as it would happen, i'd probably have a better chance of stopping my house from catching on fire while i'm at work then stopping someone from robbing my car. like with terrorism, i'm doing all i can with the cds thing.
we shouldn't be afraid when we're doing all we can. bottom line. i don't care who's telling us to be afraid... DubYa, CNN, or FOXNews.

i can't stop a terrorist attack... can YOU?

keep in mind that's if the attack's done well

[RichmondVA]

One autumn morning, four westbound planes filled with ordinary travellers are hijacked. In three of the planes, there is no warning that the hijacking is anything out of the ordinary. In fact, this is a highly planned, highly well-executed terrorist attack. The travellers comply with the hijackers demands and the planes are crashed into predetermined targets.

In the fourth plane, the people on the flight are aware of the hijackers' plans. What happened?

And yes, Duemellon, I do think you are highlighting the negative and putting a spin on the message so that no matter what the government does it is wrong.

I put myself in the place of someone who in charge of someone else's security. In fact, it doesn't even have to be the terrorist codes-- it could be shivui's example of the stolen cd's. Or it could simply be advice to someone going to a dangerous part of town.

The message I would want to send out would be this:

1) Be careful and be aware. There's a threat so take some reasonable extra precautions (like locking your doors and windows if you are shivui).

2) Don't panic, don't go overboard trying to be a hero. Don't let the worry get to you so bad that you it significantly alters how you live. The odds are good that nothing will happen to you. For the most part, try to go about your regular routine.

3) There will be extra security around. Due to this extra security, you might run into problems that you are not used to. If you see lots of extra policemen or guards, or you are asked to submit to a security check please understand why we are doing this.

Distributing the information vs. causing undue panic requires careful balance. It's not easy. It's possible the government has gone too far, but I find it silly when people are determined to badmouth them no matter what they do.

[Duemellon]

Distributing the information vs. causing undue panic requires careful balance. It's not easy. It's possible the government has gone too farand that is where we are now.

No, i don't badmouth the govn't no matter WHAT they do, but i have NO REASON to speak out FOR the things they do RIGHT.

Heh.. here's Due's thread title:

Technology is relatively easy to access, isn't it great?

or

The poorest of our poor are richer than the richest in other countries, isn't that great?

or

I went to work today in the car I own.

....

I only talk about issues that concern me, u'kno, that I see are probs. So, therefore, you only hear that I'm upset.

[RichmondVA]

If you think the government has gone too far, then yeah I agree with you as far as a lot of Homeland Security goes. I have a lot of problems with some of the actions we have taken, but not so much with the codes themselves.

My point isn't that you only point out the negative, but that you give no way for the government (at least in this situation) from doing anything positive. If they say nothing, or tell you to go about your regular routine and not panic, then you say they are telling you to "continue to be in harms way as a show of defiance." If they warn you, then you interpret it as an attempt to instill and manipulate us through fear.

Do you really want the government to leave you in the dark? Especially when, as I pointed out, a group of average citizens WAS in fact able to act on information and thwart (somewhat) a terrorist attack. Granted they got their info. from friends via CNN, but it's entirely logical that next time it happens, the gov. may have the information itself. What do you suggest the gov. do?

As for this:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But, as I said before, we're asking all federal departments and agencies make this system work immediately, integrate their plans into this advisory system, and work with us over the next 135 days to a final system.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All the federal, state, and local departments and agencies do indeed have extensive protocols for each of the code alerts. For my agency alone, there is a 20 page document that describes what each of the codes means as far as building security and our own agency, and what impact it has on the average employee and member of the public. And I'm in a 25 person state agency that does nothing with security and is definitely not one that would be targeted.

This is what I meant when I said the codes are directed primarily at government entities. The amount that Virginia has spent upping security for government buildings is not inconsequential by any means, especially during a budget crunch. All you have to do is stay on your toes. As they said, for the average citizen the codes are just an advisory.

[Duemellon]

If they say nothing, or tell you to go about your regular routine and not panic, then you say they are telling you to "continue to be in harms way as a show of defiance." If they warn you, then you interpret it as an attempt to instill and manipulate us through fear. That's not quite what I said. What I said was that the govn't wants to tell you there's danger out there, and to go face it BRAVELY as if it wasn't there.

That's telling us to beleive in our govn't and for the average citizenry to place their lives on the line for the society on the whole.

If they want us to live normal everyday lives, then don't tell us about the terrorists in our midst. If they want us to be terrified, then they should keep doing what they're doing.

As for "mostly for govn't agencies". That's kinda like a 'duh', but you knew what I was saying. The warning is intended to get ALL people on 'edge" and aware, watching for suspicious things, and be more diligent.

If they tell us to act normal, but tell us to live differently, how is that possible? And when it comes to something regarding life & death, how could we possibly be expected to act as if everything is fine? That is where the terror is reintroduced into our daily lives by govn't warnings about the "mean ol' people across the ocean bent on killing everyone".

Kinda like when you told your lil' sister about the "guy with the hook" who steals little girls in who keep stealing your nickels from jars (more specifically, your jars, that lil' crook).

Oh, except your story is intended to cause fear in her, the govn't is for our protection. yes, They both have the same effect.

[dcXhc]

When the government first started issuing warnings to local authorities after 9/11, they were not publicly disseminated. There were inevitable leaks, which raised a substantial hew and cry from the press and the public about why they were being kept in the dark about these "alerts." In response to this the government established a formal alert system that would be released to everyone.

It's just that simple.

[Duemellon]

i heard no such thing. Do you have a source?

Besides, there have always been "leaks" in threats, why is this one treated differently?

[dcXhc]

Originally posted by Duemellon
i heard no such thing. Do you have a source?

Besides, there have always been "leaks" in threats, why is this one treated differently?

I'll dig up some sources later, but I'm sure you remember some of the incidents -- The purported threat to the Golden Gate Bridge that Gray Davis received from the FBI was probably the most notable. There was another time when banks in the Northeast were supposedly warned of potential terrorist attacks. Some of them closed and the press was clamoring for an explanation. There were also purported warnings about the Hoover Dam and nuclear power plants.

The point was that warnings were being issued piecemeal and not to everybody. When somebody would catch wind of a reported "alert" there was the likelihood of misinformation and overreaction. By establishing a coordinated alert system (cheesey as a color-coded system might be) the government sought to ensure that any warning was given everybody to eliminate the side effects of misinformation generated by purported leaks.

[Duemellon]

The purported threat to the Golden Gate Bridge that Gray Davis received from the FBI was probably the most notable. There was another time when banks in the Northeast were supposedly warned of potential terrorist attacks no need to go digging them up, i remember them now that you mentioned them.

Heh, i remember having the same reaction when I heard those stories by the popular media. "God, how much could they scare us? Could they JUST leave us alone for a bit." News is news, and they will gladly drag our fears out to get us to watch their special weather forcast with triple doppler.

So, yes, I had the same reaction, wishing the authorities would keep it to themselves. Yes, I realize they would have a hard time keeping some things under wraps (When the GGBridge suddenly has twenty po-po on it, and heli-patrols, you know something is up)..

I just would like the media & our govn't to stop, give it a rest. Let us decide just how scared we want to be. Stop reminding us that we are constantly under the THREAT of, and let us live our lives.

My story didn't change because of your reminder, it simply reminded me an old antagonist. Sorry.

[solomon]

This thread just got me thinking...

Do you guys think these terrorists are a bust? I mean honestly, they really are starting to not scare me anymore. After 9/11, I thought they were much more determined, and much more capable, than it seems they really are. 9/11 was almost two years ago, after that I figured we'd start getting pretty hard-hitting attacks like every few months...and yeah they've blown some shit up overseas, but no homeland attacks really. Not one right? Am I missing something? No suicide bombers. No snipers. No high profile kidnappings. I don't even BELIEVE some of these plans the gov claims to have stopped. I mean, I'm not an engineer, but exactly how does ANYONE go about blowing up the golden gate bridge? Just seems totally ridiculous. Anyway, I'm just getting the feeling that we severely overestimated their diligence, strength, and competence. But a nuke could go off tomorrow in a big city and that would prove me totally wrong. I just have to say I'm surprised at the lack of activity thus far.

Sol

[Duemellon]

Do you guys think these terrorists are a bust?
...
I just have to say I'm surprised at the lack of activity thus far.HAhahaAhhaAHAHahAhaHaHahhaHahaHaA

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by solomon
I just have to say I'm surprised at the lack of activity thus far.

Me too. I'm not so worried about them trying something on the scale of 9/11, but what if they found 100 guys or gals to simultaneously blow themselves up at malls in the largest 100 cities in the U.S. The damage wouldn't be that big of a deal, but would certainly freak some people out.

[blue_kitten]

Originally posted by monkey neck
Nothing the government does will be right by you.

hmmmmm...I think you're on to something mn.

[blue_kitten]

Originally posted by Duemellon

If they want us to live normal everyday lives, then don't tell us about the terrorists in our midst. If they want us to be terrified, then they should keep doing what they're doing.


Funny, I'm more terrified after watching the local news reports than hearing that our national terrorist alert code has been upgraded. Are you really THAT TERRIFIED? I pity you.

[dcXhc]

Originally posted by solomon
Do you guys think these terrorists are a bust?

How many of them have been "detained"?

I work with a guy named Mohammed Atta (really) who, although he is a born and raised American, has a hell of a time traveling by plane these days.

Don't forget that, ostensibly, the upside to a loss of civil liberties is an increase in security. Maybe its working.

Then again, Bin Laden has shown himself to be patient in the past.

[shivui]

soloman, do you know somebody who was killed in the 9/11 attack? i'm just wondering. i don't, but even though it was two years ago i still think it's effect lingers. i also thought that we might get attacked in greater frequency than before, but i would never underestimate these or any terrorists. if you managed every five years to kill thousands of people i think you're accomplishing quite a bit.

i would not call these terrorists a bust.

bluekitten, i've got to agree with you. the local news is quite a bit more depressing and scary than talk of terrorists. there's just too much controversy in the cincinnati area to be at peace for an extended period of time.

my thoughts-maybe if the pres or whoever got on the horn and just reminded us to make sure we're taking precautions to be safe, then it wouldn't be such a problem. hearing that we're in danger of an attack strikes fear. if they just tip toed around it and were more subtle, i think the reaction would be a bit different.
everyone's just too uptight. where's lewis black?

[solomon]

soloman, do you know somebody who was killed in the 9/11 attack?

No. And I don't want you to get the idea that I am downplaying 9/11. It changed the world and the country in particular (and in a bad way since I think it was completely taken advantage of by govt). I just mean that when it happened, I really thought the shit was ready to hit the fan, in a serious way. And that hasn't really been the case.

but i would never underestimate these or any terrorists.

I just don't get it though. I mean, that was MY first reaction: these guys mean business, they are willing to die, they have a lot of resources - we are in trouble. But where ARE all these zealots? What's the reason that we haven't had ONE, not one, suicide bomber in the US? This would be so easy to pull off. And yet....nothing. Yet. I'm just surprised.

i would not call these terrorists a bust.

Well, again, I would say they're either a) not very together, or b) stupid. Look at slow-dog's example. We can sit here and name the easy ways available for terrorizing americans. Get 100 guys to start pulling off beltway-type snipe attacks. Rent a corner apartment, pack it with explosives, and blow the building up. Do straight-up palestinian style suicide bombings. It just doesn't seem that hard, if they were as strong or determined as I THOUGHT they were. And I don't think they could pull off something the scale of 9/11 again, unless it's a nuke.

Sol

[shivui]

heh, maybe they just figure americans kill eachother enough.

[Duemellon]

Terrorism is meant to cause terror. If they did some act and no one ELSE started being terrified, it isn't terrorism.

Why do they need to do anything more? We're already scared of them. When we start forgetting is when they will do more. Just to say "Hey, remember us? remember your nightmare? well, we're still here."

Why do people feel that someone who was in NYC or lost someone in the attacks has a more intimate definition of what was at stake here? They were there, or directly impacted, but those who experienced it are individuals and digested the situation differently. There are those who have already forgiven, there are those who still want vengence, there are those who are glad the attacks took place (in respect to the greater good of the world) and those who wish it never happened. Just because you were there doesn't make you an expert per-se, it simply means you experienced it.

And if you lost someone in it, but your conviction are still in place, how are you an expert?

Someone who lost their friend to drug overdose felt the pain of losing someone to OD, but doesn't REALLY make them wiser, more reliable, or anything like that. It means they went through a horrible and unfortunate experience unlike anything most anyone will ever have to go through and they carry that baggage around with them.

It didn't make them the epitome or idol for how we should be afterwards.

[RichmondVA]

Originally posted by Duemellon
Why do they need to do anything more? We're already scared of them. When we start forgetting is when they will do more. Just to say "Hey, remember us? remember your nightmare? well, we're still here."

Ask someone from the West Bank or Northern Ireland what it's like to be scared of terrorists.

I highly doubt the reason for the inactivity is because the terrorists are sufficiently happy with the damage they've caused US.

[shivui]

besides, isn't their objective to destroy us anyway? they certainly haven't accomplished that.

with the "did you know someone killed" thing... i was assuming someone who knew a victim of 9/11 would be a bit more moved by it than say some 21 yr old in fairfield chanting political bs on a computer and having no real relation to anyone involved in the conflict. perhaps perhaps i've been mistooken.

[Duemellon]

besides, isn't their objective to destroy us anyway?no. it is not their goal. I really hope that you could see past the drivel being drilled into our heads that these people are truly evil and bent on rampant destruction because they hate us with some undefinable grudge.

As if ANYONE hates freedom, or wealth, or things like that.

Their goal is specific:
US leave the mideast to their own affairs.

That's a bit more complicated than simply agreeing to their terms, but that's what they want. Obviously, we can't leave Isreal to their own devices, nor could we abandon Kuwait. Further, we can't exactly remove strategic missle placements in various mideast entities.

But please, dont fall for the "evil people bent on wanton destruction" crap.with the "did you know someone killed" thing... i was assuming someone who knew a victim of 9/11 would be a bit more moved by it than say some 21 yr old in fairfield chanting political bs on a computer and having no real relation to anyone involved in the conflict. perhaps perhaps i've been mistooken.and that's what I was addressing. Those individuals directly effected by 9/11 are INDIVIDUALS. They will react however they want, and if you could really judge a person's heart then you could say "This person here is more concerned than this person"

But you can't. There are people terrified in Nebraska of a terrorist attack. To the point of frequent panic-attacks. There are people who ran down the steps of a crumbling tower and knows most of their coworkers didn't make it, yet they're ready to make a vacation trip to Egypt.

I find it absurd to request wisdom from the survivors as if they are experts on the situation. They are not. I further find it trivializing when we ask one who is a survivor to represent what we/I should feel "if we were in the same situation".

We weren't. We don't know how we would be affected. To say that someone living in Kookamunga is not as, or even MORE terrified, than a survivor, dismisses the difference between personal methods of handling situations and experience.

[blue_kitten]

Originally posted by Duemellon
When we start forgetting is when they will do more. Just to say "Hey, remember us? remember your nightmare? well, we're still here."

Okay, so this clarifies why we have the alert- so we don't forget and so they (the terrorists) know we haven't forgotten.

If someone in Nebraska is having panic attacks over the alert, then they should seek psychological help for their unreasonable fears and anxiety problems. If it was a reasonable fear, we'd all be having panic attacks. To my knowledge, no one I know is having this type of anxiety from an alert system.

[Duemellon]

price of never forgetting your happy trip to Disneyland =
having a fond memory that makes you warm & fuzzy inside

price of never forgetting you were molested as a child =
having nightmares, relationship problems, and fighting the stigma

price of never forgetting your 'special night' after the prom =
having a great story, some form of validation & closure to the HS experience

price of never forgetting terrorism =
fear, the fear they WANT you to have

Every "reminder" has a cost. To me, this reminder's dividends are too expensive.

on the OTHER point I made:
Now, I AM interested in either having some form of acknowledgement that the terrorists aren't simply out to terrorize us for the FUN of it. Some form of conscious recognition that they are attempting to change policies would be appreciated. I am really bothered by the portrayal of these terrorists as "strictly evil people bent on havoc for the sake of mayhem."

[dcXhc]

Originally posted by Duemellon
price of never forgetting your 'special night' after the prom =


Nursing a vicious hangover and hoping you remembered to cloak your dagger........

[RichmondVA]

You don't sacrifice your life and leave behind wives and children for kicks. So yeah there's an objective, but the question is what is the objective.

It's foolish to think that Muslims or people from the Mideast are inherently evil and bent wiping out all who resist. But it's equally foolish to think that the hardcore terrorist faction will go away peaceably if we withdraw from the mideast and say let's be friends. There are a lot of different factions in that region with varying objectives and degrees of hate. To lump them altogether as either evil or reasonable is a huge mistake.

We have to acknowledge what has happened and learned from it. In the short term, this means keeping your guard up and not trusting them too much. In the long term, it means coming to understand their viewpoint, how it got this way, and the massive amount of work it will take to make lasting peace.

[shivui]

understanding their viewpoint and how it got this way might take quite a long time. if my paranoia serves me correctly, i wouldn't think many (do nothing wrong) americans will like it.
trying to steer clear of "nothing US does is right" thing... paranoia.

[shivui]

Originally posted by Duemellon
that's what I was addressing. Those individuals directly effected by 9/11 are INDIVIDUALS. They will react however they want, and if you could really judge a person's heart then you could say "This person here is more concerned than this person"
couldn't i just take their word for it. in my experience, the ones who are more directly effected are the ones more upset. i guess i just judge what i know.

i might be wrong again, but...
a soldier from vietnam may be able to carry on a normal life and take a vacation to egypt but if you bring up the war, they shut off. this might've been a little bit what i was talking about.

i guess i don't know much of anything. i'll keep my comments to questions.
-powerless

[postfeminist]

I had sort of promised myself that i would exhibit some restraint and stop posting in current events for awhile; it was making me a bit too grumpy, but this morning, back at work, i find myself posting in current events.

I'll be honest. I'm also pretty surprised that more terrorist acts haven't been done here on US soil... For years, i quipped every July 4th as i sat under the sky at the fireworks in Evendale, "if you ever wanted to attack america, the best day would be today...we're all drunk, sitting on our asses staring up at the sky."

The alerts keep us from feeling like we can sit on our asses looking up at the sky. i live in a college town 75 miles from the capital city of ohio, and i feel totally safe. i don't worry that terrorism will strike athens, that the university will be bombed or anything-- not the way my comrades in Bosnia or Israel have felt (or Ireland, as someone else mentioned.)

As always, I'm SO grateful to live here where I can bitch and whine about america because i have the freedom to. i don't like the alerts because while it does not incapacitate me, it does worry me--i start worrying about friends and family in LA, Seattle, Boston, NY, etc... but i personally feel pretty safe.

Sept. 11, 2001 didn't bother me nearly as much as I think it affected many of my friends and family. I saw it as being equally tragic with the civilians killed in terrorism and war all over the globe--i do not value american lives above somalian/palestinian/israeli/bosnian (ad infinitum) lives. i didn't put a flag sticker on my car, and i was able to tear myself from the tv set, and the tears i shed for Lisa Beamer and other grieving folks were the same tears i shed when i read about the 1st female palestinian suicide bomber, who took the life of an israeli girl the same age-- tears of grief and sadness for the global lack of respect for other human lives, no matter what the differences are. the same tears i shed for african babies who are raped by men who have been told it will cure them of AIDS are the same tears i shed for the abortion doctors who have been murdered by the Army of God. they are tears of disappointment, disgust, sadness, but not hate.

if there were no alerts, and something happened, the people would clamor "You could have warned us!" If there are alerts and no one attacks, they say "you worry us for nothing!" the citizenry is much like a Jewish mother (i'd know--someday i'll be one) you can't please her no matter what. If you call to say you're late, she's mad that you're late--but if you don't call, she's mad that you didn't call.

yup. going to smoke. :D

[RichmondVA]

Just got the word we are back on "yellow" alert.

[Duemellon]

Now, let's review what just happened...
GWB was making his campaign for reelection. He was looking to have the tax-thingy passed. And AmerIdol was starting to reach it's end.

ORANGE! people ORANGE! Don't forget we're here to protect you, and don't forget we are at WAR. Don't forget we're in constant danger. ORANGE ORANGE ORANGE!

Oh, the bills passed?
My camera op of my image as "great protector" passed?
And AmerIdol is over?

Okay, we don't need your attention anymore. Just in time for the NBA finals.

Wait until the Dems hold their national convention, ooooh baby, u'd better be happy we dont go to RED.

[RichmondVA]

Ummm. I'm not sure if you were joking or not?

But I'll tell you what. Whether or not you were joking, you've put forth the idea that all these alerts are just to dupe the public. And I'm willing to give you a fair shake. I don't think any President running for election is above a little manipulation in order to secure it, and I distrust Bush so maybe you have a point.

Here's what we'll do:

If you can call when the next alert change will occur, what it will be (up or down) and some brief basis for why-- within one week-- I'll believe you.

You don't have to do it now. Just whenever you think it's going to happen, raise a flag and post it on these boards. It just has to be within one week BEFORE the alert occurs. You can start a new thread and keep a running commentary.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I'm dead serious about this. If you can truly make the prediction, I'll change my views on the whole alert thing. And you can cut and past that last senetence and rub it in my face if I'm wrong. And you'll probably change a lot of other people's minds too.

What do ya think?

*In the case of an extreme event, I reserve the right to void your call. I mean, I think we can both accept that if Iraq drops a nuke or something, we will go to red and that would be legit.

I do mean EXTREME. We had two terrorist bombings that killed Americans right before we went up to orange this time, but I still couldn't have predicted if or when we would go to orange so if you had called it I'd give it to you. I won't weasel out. And hey, if something extreme happens and you want to say we WON'T change alerts even though it seems we, I'll give you credit for that too.

[Duemellon]

Joking, and not joking.

I'll take you up on that. I don't believe that the alert system is created SOLELY to distract us or increase our patriotism, but it definitely has that effect and they (the powers that be) are QUITE aware of it.

In all actuality, the attacks in Saudi and... oh god I can't forgive myself for forgetting the name.. that other country, happened a week before we went to orange. A week. We waited until the chatter increased to levels "similar to 9-11" before we increased our alert, but also cited the recent attacks on US interests as the reason... a week later.

Does this mean that our intelligence HEARD the increased chatter regarding these other countries but wasn't concerned about it occuring in the homeland? Or does it mean that the chatter was typical and the attacks were a surprise? And the fact that chatter increased and nothing happened, but when it was normal and SOMETHING happened, does that mean we're using the correct meter?

Or, actually, does it all boil down to the thing even I don't want to believe (and currently don't fully):

The alerts are just to dupe the general populace into submission.

[RichmondVA]

Originally posted by Duemellon

In all actuality, the attacks in Saudi and... oh god I can't forgive myself for forgetting the name.. that other country, happened a week before we went to orange. A week. We waited until the chatter increased to levels "similar to 9-11" before we increased our alert, but also cited the recent attacks on US interests as the reason... a week later.

Exactly. There was a good reason for the alert, but there was arguably some odd timing involved. AFTER the fact, I can say that it was because we were gathering evidence and making sure or you can say it was to get everyone good and hyped.

But like I said, I couldn't say for sure what would happen until afterwards-- so if a similar thing happens and you call it beforehand then I'll take your views seriously. Or you can really school me by saying "We'll wait 8 days, then do it."

Maybe we can make some money on this. You call the dates and we'll take bets on yes or no and over/under.

[Duemellon]

Maybe we can make some money on this. You call the dates and we'll take bets on yes or no and over/under. Toru:
"But master, " (looks quizzickly into camera in direction of Uncle) "I do not see how we can predict those things."

Uncle:
(without change of expression he reaches up and somehow smacks Toru across brow with two fingers)
With reeeeeeeeeeesearch Toru. Have you learned nothing?"

(u gonna make me work for this, huh?)

[monkey neck]

Originally posted by Duemellon
The alerts are just to dupe the general populace into submission.

Sure are. Boosh called me on my Bat-phone and told me what to do. I sat, I stayed, I spoke, I rolled over, I chased the plush squeaky toy he threw over my head, I brought it back to him, happily, tail wagging.

Good dog.:rolleyes:

[shivui]

mmm dog biscuits are good.