Oops, look what came back...

[Duemellon]

Sorry Lawdog, your efforts were in vain...

Why keep a thread that has so much anger and stuff in it?

[Duemellon]

i've just skipped over alot of these posts... the due/frost thing took too long to read, so i skipped it, but i gotta say something that i just picked up on my radar.

1) there are lots of assumptions about people's races.



i think people are assuming that rightstarter is black, when i'm not sure that rightstarter ever divulged a race...only alluded.

we're all assuming that everyone else in the conversation is white. i think that this assumption is being made because we are on a modern rock bulletin board, and some folks assume that only crackers like modern rock, or our avatars depict honkies (just being silly)



just pointing out what i noticed...

power to ALL people...

[Duemellon]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BigSugar
fine, so every time a black person is denied a job because of race, we should kill the business owner who refused to hire. or every time some moron walks down the street and yells "nigger", we should just summarily shoot, beat and maim them for being morons.

that's so full of crap, and yet you can't see it. you say you want to , but what about the racists without power, does that make it ok b/c they can't affect you? what about the black racists with power like Farakhan(sp?) and Sharpton? does racism only become "bad" when an extreme minority of the majority race exercises that racism? is it the racism, or is it the effect of the racism??

fuck it, lets just nuke it all and start over.....clearly violence is the answer.....

you know what, i'm with bronzetree....i can't believe i let myself get dragged back into thread #8000 on this issue....agree to disagree.....buh bye.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




if you ever addressed the contradictions between your approval for the us army and the war, for freedom, coupled your simultaneous disapproval of violence in other forms, for freedom, then maybe we'd have a start.

if you'd rather not look inside yourself, then it is indeed adieu, lawyer boy

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by monkey neck


Well, no, not really. I guess it was a clever analogy, but I don't agree with it. Black racists are as despicable and virulent as white or any other race. However, to me, white racists irk me just a little more because of their political and economic "power" (for lack of a better word).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



yeah, and the bengals players train hard too. they run sprints and do drills and practice and try their damnedest to execute and win. but the crowd isn't always behind them, is it? i mean sometimes even in their home stadium, the crowd has more steeler fans than bengal fans... the more powerful team... and sometimes the bengals freak up and win.

but when you look at the record for the last 10 years, blanko...loss after loss after loss.

the point here is, if we get good enough to beat the packers and patriots and rams, we can probably beat the bengals.

people want to have that W in the win column, but they do NOT sit there and *worry* about the bengals. they *worry* about the good teams.

Worry about the powerful team that has a big fucking stadium and hordes of adoring fans all over the nation. worry about THOSE fuckers and quit bugging me about the damn bengals, okay?

The team to beat right now has hall-of-fame racists in it, and you want me to sweat the bengals cause they have one pro bowl player on their roster? (farrakhan) ?

[Duemellon]

1 racist or 1,000 racists, it's all the same, man. Racism itself is the same regardless of what side of the tracks you're on.

[Duemellon]

Okay I will chill. Look, it's like this: I'm as tired of fighting on the issues of equality as the next guy. I don't have to deal with the racist and bigots the way a black person does, but I constantly have to explain to people who think I'm a nice white boy how I really feel. I am constantly disappointing and angering people because of my views. I'm tired of it. Every time I think I might have a new friend, or I think I'm getting along fine with a co-worker, they find out about my real feelings and that's it. All of a sudden I'm blacklisted, or I become their pet project, the boy they will save. I do get very angry with these people, but mostly I just feel a large degree of disappointment over the sheer number of people who are either racist or sexist, or homophobes, all of the above, or a bigot for some other reason. I don’t need somebody in my camp going A-wall and making things worse by provoking the racist with violence. Minorty ethnics, women, and homosexuals are slowly gaining more power, but even if things become equal in that regard nothing garentees that they are not racist or sexist, or homophobic, or heterophobic. But anywho.

[Duemellon]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Danosaur
Okay I will chill. Look, it's like this: I'm as tired of fighting on the issues of equality as the next guy. I don't have to deal with the racist and bigots the way a black person does, but I constantly have to explain to people who think I'm a nice white boy how I really feel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry dude

are you saying they try to "save" you from being tolerant?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by monkey neck
1 racist or 1,000 racists, it's all the same, man. Racism itself is the same regardless of what side of the tracks you're on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



theoretically, sure.

in practice, no.

look at it this way. if it were a bunch of black racists with power, trying to keep that power, i'd feel the exact same way, that we needed to get rid of the black racists in power.

i mean really, the bengals analogy says it all



LOL, that's cracking me up
hey, at least they're good for something right?

[Duemellon]

Okay, let's see what we've got....

White racists, historically, have used more racism to affect more people, because they made the rules to benefit themselves.

Black racists, historically, haven't been able to use their racism as well because they weren't included in the policy-making, and as such weren't provided the means to affect the masses as easily.

White racists pass their hate on to their children, often without being overt as it's just part of their daily life, and these kids grow up with no idea that what their thinking is abnormal or wrong.

Black racists pass their hate on the their children, often without being overt as it's just part of their daily life, etc etc.

White racists are ignorant bastards.

Black racists are ignorant bastards.

Substitute any other race for "black" in all of the above, and it holds true as well.

I don't think anyone has ever questioned the total affect, or which group has done the most harm. What I question is the fact that so many people blame everything on whitey. How can you try to preach in favor of diversity while ignoring the diverse group that's causing the problem? Racism isn't a white problem. To try to simplify it to that extent is to ignore far too much history in this country and in almost every other country, empire, tribe or kingdom throughout history.

[Duemellon]

They try and keep you a good little white boy. That means telling you that conservative religion is law and you need to turn to god, repent your sins, and stop hanging out with the "fagots." The racist part is subtle, no one is going to tell you to stop liking blacky. You just start going to all white church, you get promoted based on your cultural likeness, and you turn your head to the outrageous incarceration rates among blacks. And the women issue is simple, welcome to your male savior and your father God and his loving patriarchy. It's not the same for blacks and whites, and I realize I get a lot of perks being white, but I do rally against privilege based on my skin, sex, and sexual orientation. But, that doesn't mean I don't benefit from white privilege, I do. If I get hired for a job though, I will most likely never know if it had anything to do with being white and male, though I'm pretty damn sure I have gotten jobs based on those criteria. I forgot looks, I am a pretty okay looking guy, and that adds to it as well, if you're ugly you got a much worse lot in life than if you got good looks.

[Duemellon]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BigSugar
....i can't believe i let myself get dragged back into thread #8000 on this issue....agree to disagree.....buh bye.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You think you feel bad? I started this crap. I'm so ashamed. I never dreamed that this would degenerate into such madness. All those in favor of me deleting the whold damned thread, say "aye! '

[Duemellon]

All those in favor of me deleting the whold damned thread, say "aye! 'ah, don't be a coward about it. Let it live. Skip it if you like.

This isn't making NEW enemies, this is simply redrawing lines that may have been forgotten. I'm glad that this is such a sensitive issue, one that fosters massive discussions and emotions. If a post about racism caused no reaction, it's equivalent to a post about another KMart closing.

Now, as for those people who are frustrated at being "brought back into this".

Stay out.

That simple. Let those who have something to say, say it, and stfu. It's not that hard. If you get upset at what they have to say, then CLOSE YOUR EYES. Again... not that hard.

now, back to the whole "I won't join you because of they way you talk, how you want to get there, and who you are." Here's all I have to say to get you to fall in line to where you will understand where I'm coming from.

I dont care.

Okay, time to move on.

The progress made in the last 400 years for equality is notable and commendable. You must also recognize the reason why it is in place and who put it in place, and then wonder... why haven't they simply gotten rid of it the way they started it? Sounds like a half-ass job to me.

Other perspective.

The progress made in the last 400 years for equality is notable and commendable. You must also recognize it is incomplete. Even though you can advance unlike any of your predecessors, attain knowledge, and have freedoms unheard of, it is still not fully equality and empowerment. Now is not the time to rest on your laurels, you must finish the quest.

What happened 200 years ago, 400 years ago, and the climate of the time is only useful for a historic perspective. If you forget that such things happened and look at the current situation can anyone say that everything is fine? Can anyone even say that things should not be changed?

Now, you can't really address solutions for our current situation without recognizing the history and the effects of that history on the current situation. But you don't really need to compare the plight of current black people with those who were enslaved because it trivializes the issues we as a society are facing. A massacre of 10,000 natives in the 1850's is bad, and a massacre of 3000 civilians in 2000's is bad, one isn't less tragic than the other is it?

(to anyone who would answer)
I really would like to understand the reason for bringing up how someone today doesn't feel the same degree of persecution as someone enslaved did. It would seem to me that such a statement implies an imperative of "It's better, be happy!" So I want to understand this as such a statement is made with some frequency.

Thnx IPFS for being clear about the effects of different races being racist. Too often racists have been placed in the same category of capability. It's clear that a 2yr old who is a racist is not as dangerous as a 40 yr old, drunk and with a gun, yet so many want to say "all racism is bad and must be address simultaneously or else attack on racism regarding a specific race, is ALSO racist!"

[Duemellon]

MwhuHahAHaHaAhAHaHahahahAa

[Danosaur]

Yeah I'm not really into the whole letting a post go for awhile and then all of a sudden pulling out some better than though move by saying your done with the thread (just not responding would suffice). So I will respond.

IT IS BETTER!

YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE HAPPY ABOUT IT, BUT IT IS A WHOLE SHIT TON BETTER!

Having someone call you nigger doesn't compare to “hey nigger shine my shoes, work my fields, and send your teenage daughter to my bedroom tonight or I will whip the lot of you until you’re almost dead”.

C,mon Due.

The protections and freedoms that Blacks experience today though not equal are far superior to those of the enslaved black.
Does that mean we say we've done well enough, lets quit? Hell no!

But we have entered a time when the problems of racism have less to do with black and white and more to do with culture and human nature. The direction we must go in is vastly different from the civil rights movement. The future holds a long persistent fight to change people's opinions. Law has done its part, Blacks have the same rights as whites, but public opinion cannot be regulated by law.

[Duemellon]

But we have entered a time when the problems of racism have less to do with black and white and more to do with culture and human nature. The direction we must go in is vastly different from the civil rights movement. The future holds a long persistent fight to change people's opinions. Law has done its part, Blacks have the same rights as whites, but public opinion cannot be regulated by law.There are parts I agree with and parts I don't.

Yes, the laws are in place, but the enforcement isn't. Heck, the laws were really in place when our country became a country, but as is the problem you ALSO illustrate...

it's how it's interpreted/enforced that is the matter.

I can make a law that said "if you steal, you will be shot".

That can still be interepreted many different ways. Even if you make a statement alluding to the "intent of the law" there are ways around it.

I'd like to see a law that can't be reinterpreted in a fashion that can seem contrary to the intent of the law.

So, with that in mind, yes, we are beyond introducing NEW laws. We were beyond that when this society first started.

So, we much change SOCIETY, not government. People's opinions and traditions must be attacked and destroyed. Can that be done throught legislation and force? coersion and talking? bribery and such?

i am here to say: By any means necessary.

Dan, just be careful when you say "You have it much better than your great-great-grandfather did", because I'm sure black people interpret that as "leave it alone, it's good enough." k?

[Victrola7]

You've got WAY too much time on your hands...

[Duemellon]

You've got WAY too much time on your hands...
:P PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

[postfeminist]

what the fuck happened to the original thread???????

i'm going to bed. gotta get up early tomorrow and drive to columbus so i can watch The Matrix Reloaded in a real movie theater. the athena isn't cutting it for these good flix.

nighty night...

[lawdog]

Originally posted by postfeminist
what the fuck happened to the original thread???????


Um, sorry about that. I started the original thread, and it had degenerated into a pointless, never-ending snipfest, to I posted a question asking for anyone who wanted me to delete to say "aye." After getting some positive response, I deleted it. That was probably a bit uncalled for, and I apologize to all the people (e.g., you) who were being reasonable. If I start another thread that turns into a dick-measuring contest, I'll just ignore it and let it be (esp. since Due will just end up reviving it anyway...)

[Duemellon]

I start another thread that turns into a dick-measuring contest, I'll just ignore it and let it be (esp. since Due will just end up reviving it anyway...)You're reaction is understandable. I did want to note that no bitter & irreverent attacks on personas have taken place since BS & BT decided not to join us.

It is actually a discussion.

Oh, but nevermind, the degeneration of the discussion is rarely ever blamed on them, it's blamed on someone else.

One goal:
The destruction/elimination of race as a crucial characteristic in determining a person's rights, value, and/or expected behavior.

From something as overtly inhibiting as an all-black school, to as seemingly necessary as a census reading. Any time you must take into consideration an individuals' race to determine their capacity or rights, you are doing society harm.

This must be taken out, at the same time a new perception must be put in place:

The realization must be made that all people are individuals. Their historic heritage is HISTORY and they are here to forge a new future for themselves and the people they care about. Every person, regardless of appearance, is a mystery, and must be approached with the same attitude of acceptance and distance, as you find out that individual's capabilities and behaviors.

After all, if you remove the legislative need for racial categorizations, but leave the social standard for basing decisions on inconsequential characteristics, you still have the same problem as you do today.

Those are the biggest problems, those are the first thing to get rid of.

Any suggestions?

[IPrayForSound]

Originally posted by Duemellon
I did want to note that no bitter & irreverent attacks on personas have taken place since BS & BT decided not to join us... Oh, but nevermind, the degeneration of the discussion is rarely ever blamed on them, it's blamed on someone else.I'm not trying to start anything, and I don't dislike you, and I'm not out to "get" you... I'm just trying to offer some perspective. Did you notice that you bitterly attacked those two, essentially saying "they started it and everything's their fault!" right in the middle of your statement about how everyone's simply discussing things now? Not to mention the blanket accusations of bias against everyone else in that thread, implying that no matter what, we're going to blame you. Even more than your arguing tactics, I think that exposes the victim mentallity you often fall back on when things aren't going your way.

Next time you go out of your way to publicly inform us of your benevolent intentions, keep it friendly. It'll help your cause and your case more than you know.

[Bronzetree]

Originally posted by IPrayForSound
I'm not trying to start anything, and I don't dislike you, and I'm not out to "get" you... I'm just trying to offer some perspective. Did you notice that you bitterly attacked those two, essentially saying "they started it and everything's their fault!" right in the middle of your statement about how everyone's simply discussing things now? Not to mention the blanket accusations of bias against everyone else in that thread, implying that no matter what, we're going to blame you. Even more than your arguing tactics, I think that exposes the victim mentallity you often fall back on when things aren't going your way.

Next time you go out of your way to publicly inform us of your benevolent intentions, keep it friendly. It'll help your cause and your case more than you know.

Exactly. Thanks for saying EXACTLY what I was thinking.

And sorry, Danosaur, when an attack on MY character come from someone who bitches about others attacking his ( not true, I attacked his methods, not his character) continues to carry on, I have zero desire to continue "discussing" it.

[Duemellon]

Did you notice that you bitterly attacked those two, essentially saying "they started it and everything's their fault!" right in the middle of your statement about how everyone's simply discussing things now?Yep, because I'm still bitter. I know you don't want to go down THIS path, but if they don't respond, that's that.

As for "victim" mentality...
Even though I suffer from this perspective, does it mean that I am any less of a victim of personal attacks and such? Really, honestly, I can say they are/were the ones the deviated...

ah... I interrupt this post to return it to it's intent. Your point is taken, it was a cheap shot.

Please note the last 2 posts prior to this one, and participate if you'd like. What are your feelings about approaching this as a social ill vs. a legislative matter?

How do you feel we can go about getting there?

Are there things you can elucidate on that we miss in our society which perpetuate the categorization of people according to inconsequential characteristics?

etc. etc. etc...

[Danosaur]

I bitch about people attacking my character? I guess I prolly have. I have posted too much shit to know better. Just don't remember. I have shit for a memory though.

P.S. Hey, it's all bullshit in the end. We ain't excaclty saving the world around here, what's the difference if we bitch on and on? I just don't understand it is all. So say I put a post up and it goes in some other direction, so. It's not a post if others can't effect it. Beyond that, if you're done, you're done, move on. But you can't help following it. You don't want to discuss it, but you've prolly read this response. I'm not responsible for your lack of self-control. I'm just sayin.

The reality for me is that I like all the scwabbling, it's something to do in my boring life. And I guess some of this shit has made me think differently, but mostly it's just enertainment. If it's no fun, just move onto another thread.

[Duemellon]

heh, and Dan reveals the darker side of poster-bickering.

Well, in actual FACTUAL reality I am doing something about this. I am involved in committees, organizations, talking with civil leaders, and sending letters, participating in protests, and staying aware.

I really hope that scares the CRAP out of people who think I'm doing it wrong, but who want the SAME thing.

At this point I don't care where the action comes from as long as people get active, u'kno?

[Bronzetree]

Originally posted by Danosaur
I bitch about people attacking my character? I guess I prolly have. I have posted too much shit to know better. Just don't remember. I have shit for a memory though.

Sorry if you thought so, but this was totally not directed at you.

[Danosaur]

I wasn't sure. I thought it didn't after I read your response a few times, but by then I already posted my message. Anywho cool. Glad to know my second thought was correct. No hard feelings?

[BigSugar]

Originally posted by Duemellon
You're reaction is understandable. I did want to note that no bitter & irreverent attacks on personas have taken place since BS & BT decided not to join us.

It is actually a discussion.

Oh, but nevermind, the degeneration of the discussion is rarely ever blamed on them, it's blamed on someone else.

self-agrandizing, victim-complex, know-nothing Tool. (i like hyphenation - it reminds me of the slash across my throat that Due threatened in another thread - :)

Laci Petersen

[Duemellon]

self-agrandizing, victim-complex, know-nothing Tool.YAY! He's back.

Isn't everyone glad?

I'm sure he's the reason why everyone LOVES to post here. They would hate to get caught in the BS/BT-Due crossfire.

Are you people scared yet?

[postfeminist]

i think that the Laci Petersen joke was in horrible horrible taste. but that goes w/o saying. The violence against women by the men who supposedly love them that goes on this country isn't really funny to me. (nor is the violence against men by the women that supposedly love them, nor the violence in same-sex couples...you get my drift.)

the fact that someone would think that was cute within the context of an anti-racism discussion just proves my earlier point that racism and violence and sexism and all oppressions are intersectional...

[Danosaur]

Not to get off topic, but we must address the issues that cause men to abuse women before anything will change. In this world men are taught to hid everything and compete like starving dogs. Men are taught they are suppose to be stronger than anyone else, but we know they're not. Men are taught they are suppose to be the protectors of society and home, but women shoot a gun, or drive a tank as well as a man, yet the draft is still sex specific. Our society teaches men to hold it together no matter what, the last thing men are allowed to do is cry and confess their weaknesses. Of course there are varying degrees to which men experience this, but we still all experience it to some degree. This teaching may seem old school but it has taught to a new generation of men thanks to ganster rap. All of this leads to eruptions of emotion and anger. I don't want to victimize men who hurt women, but we must address the way we socialize men.

[Duemellon]

[aboard the train]
chugga chugga, chugga chugga, WHOO WHOO

All aboard, the "America the Free train"

chugga chugga, chugga chugga, WHOO WHOO

[sound of horrible wreck as the train is derailed]

Everyone is granted free ride on the "Latest Racism Thread Express"

chugga chugga, chugga chugga, WHOO WHOO

Next stop: Masculine dominated society impedes civil rights

I just love conversations, they can go ANYWHERE!

[Bronzetree]

Originally posted by Duemellon
YAY! He's back.

Isn't everyone glad?

I'm sure he's the reason why everyone LOVES to post here. They would hate to get caught in the BS/BT-Due crossfire.

Are you people scared yet?

Actually, yeah, there are several people who gave up posting in these threads because they were tired of the crossfire.

[Bronzetree]

Originally posted by Duemellon
[aboard the train]
chugga chugga, chugga chugga, WHOO WHOO

All aboard, the "America the Free train"

chugga chugga, chugga chugga, WHOO WHOO

[sound of horrible wreck as the train is derailed]

Everyone is granted free ride on the "Latest Racism Thread Express"

chugga chugga, chugga chugga, WHOO WHOO

Next stop: Masculine dominated society impedes civil rights

I just love conversations, they can go ANYWHERE!

Well, I'll be damned. He DOES have a sense of humor.

[BigSugar]

annika sorenstam should be ashamed of herself.

[postfeminist]

socialization does have a lot to do with sexism/racism/classism/heterosexism... and i think it's good to acknowledge that. but if there are a handful of people trying to raise their kids as anti-racist and nonsexist, the way i want to raise my kids, it's such a daunting endeavor because the minute they go off to school or a friend's house, you can't intercept those socializing messages anymore. you just have to hope they can think for themselves...

need a cigarette, going outside.

[BigSugar]

Originally posted by postfeminist
you just have to hope they can think for themselves...

need a cigarette, going outside.

and that's where good parenting comes in, right? if you've done your job as a parent, then odds are that the kid will make the right choice....not always, but more often than not.

don't smoke. it's bad for you. :)

[Danosaur]

You’re an ass Rightstarter if you don't think messages that promote gang violence and treating women like a commodity to be bought and sold aren’t having a negative affect on the youth of America. Gangster rap has made a commodity of criminal life and the gangster rap industry is selling it to our youth.

Gangster rap is creating a brand new version of the good o'l boy network where men rein supreme and all who are not a member are suspect.

Maybe most pay little attention to these messages, but it's fuel for the fire for many young men looking for power in their lives.

This not a rant against rap music, this is a rant against gangster rap. Why aren't more rap artist who speak for positive change not being heard? It's not because they lack talent.

[Danosaur]

Okay, okay, you gotta point there. The good o'l boy network has always been around and gangster rap is something to align itself with. But the shit gets on my nerves. Specially when I see wanna be shits; I just want to walk up to them smack ‘em in the back of the head and say get a clue. But whatever.

P.S. I would never be for the censure of gangster rap. Not that you were implying I would, just wanted to make that clear.

[Duemellon]

you can't intercept those socializing messages anymore. you just have to hope they can think for themselves... aah... now we get into the dangerous mindset of social-programming development.

Wouldn't it be great if you, or me, or someone intelligent and wise enough, could bottle and sell the proper and kind society which brings the proper degree of equality, responsibility, and protection, for all members through their individual committment to social standards and behaviors?

Wouldn't that be great?

Oh, that's right,...

thanks to TIA (now renamed to TERRORIST Information A..., instead of TOTAL Information A..., that damned ominous Illuminati-ish EYE was removed, and their motto changed to something less 1984ish), Patriot Act, Battle-line drawing (with us, against us), Red White & Bluism, manipuation of war coverage, and such, we ARE being drawn into submission of a social design.

Yay, we have it, celebrate it.

or be shot.