Something to bring the left and right together on Iraq!

[BigSugar]

http://www.gulfwardrinkinggame.com/

my addition....shots of American Whiskey every time the Iraqi Information Minister denies the presence of US troops in Badgdad!! we'll never want the war to end!

[IPrayForSound]

I like the fact that there isn't any particular time you have to play. Just wake up, check the news, do some drinking, go to work, check the news, do some drinking, go home, check the news, do some drinking, go to bed, repeat.

[BigSugar]

it may be the greatest drinking game ever invented.....

we should do beer bong every time they find chemical or bio-weapons caches!

NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO reporter John Burnett said top officers of the U.S. 1st Marine Division told him warheads had been found south of Baghdad in a warehouse near the airport by soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division.
The officers told him the warheads were on Iraqi BM-21 unguided rockets. Those rockets are about 10 feet long, with a range of approximately 15 miles. The BM-21 is a 40-year-old truck-mounted system with 40 rocket tubes, intended for close support of troops.
The U.S. commanders said the rockets appeared to be ready to fire. It was unclear whether any Iraqi troops were in the area when the rockets were found.
NBC’s Dana Lewis reported from near Karbala on Monday that U.S. Army commanders say they have discovered more than a dozen barrels of chemicals in an agricultural facility 30 miles northeast of there that have tested positive as blister and nerve agents.
And the Wall Street Journal reported that U.S. military officers had told troops that soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division had captured an Iraqi BMP Armored Personnel Carrier that was believed to contain sarin gas and mustard gas

everybody better get a sh*tload of beer!

[GWB]

Originally posted by BigSugar
NBC’s Dana Lewis reported from near Karbala on Monday that U.S. Army commanders say they have discovered more than a dozen barrels of chemicals in an agricultural facility 30 miles northeast of there that have tested positive as blister and nerve agents.

NO!!!! NO!!!! NO!!!! THAT CAN'T BE TRUE!!! SADDAM DOESN'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE!!!! THAT'S WHAT HE TOLD THE U.N. INSPECTORS!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[IPrayForSound]

Wrong thread, Mr. President. :)

[BigSugar]

Hey now, we can't read anything into this.....maybe the rockets were supposed to spread the "agricultural chemical" over the infidel crops of Iraq!!! "HOW DARE YOU FEED MY PEOPLE YOU TRAITOROUS FIELDS OF WHEAT!!" we should send Hans Blix and Scott Ritter in to dip their heads into the barrels and test the effects.....i just bid on one of the barrels on ebay....i love this new kind of war! Hey Due, i've got your Xmas present coming early this year! no peeking!!..... :D

[monkey neck]

How many shots if France surrenders?

[dcXhc]

Originally posted by monkey neck
How many shots if France surrenders?

It doesn't require any actual shots to get France to surrender...

[BigSugar]

1 shot of Jaeger if France surrenders.....2 if Jacques Chirac does it in a cocktail dress.....3 if he hums the Battle Hymn of the Republic while signing the treaty of surrender....

[GWB]

Originally posted by IPrayForSound
Wrong thread, Mr. President. :)

I new I should have invested in them Reading Is Fundamentalist books.:)

[monkey neck]

How many for this?

[Duemellon]

i love this new kind of war! Hey Due, i've got your Xmas present coming early this year! no peeking!!but you have me on ignore... oh that's right. U don't. (of course you can't respond to THIS post unless you admit that... u love me).

Wow, all these pro-war people* are dancing a jig and trying to shove all the anti-war people's faces into the dog-doo of chemical weapons singing "We told you so! We told you so! You were wrong! You were wrong to oppose this war!"

Okay, now's the moment of truth for the anti-war people...
Those people who were against the war because they believed Iraq didn't have these weapons, time to apologize.

For all those people who are against the war, YET BELIEVED ALL ALONG THAT IRAQ HAD WoMDs and CHEM/BIO WEAPONS, can continue to oppose the war for the varying reasons you had before.

So, as part of this moment of truth, those pro-war people happy b/c we found WoMD & Bio/Chem can leave those who had OTHER REASONS TO OPPOSE THE IRAQI WAR alone.

Oh, i just realized, only one or two people who posted in this thread doesn't have me on ignore....
hahaHaHAAHAHaHahahAHAHaHaHaHaHAahAAH

* Gross generalization. This is meant only to include those people who think they've won some debate against anti-Iraq war people b/c of this discovery

[BigSugar]

I was the high bidder on the 55 gallon drum of sarin toxin on Ebay!! Woohoo!! Due, i'm having it shipped directly to your house for "storage".....ignore the leaks....try some on your breakfast cereal, it's Grrrreeeeaaat! ;)

of course, one of the other lawyers in my office just told me he thought that the stuff was clearly planted by the US military....basing this on pure conjecture and distrust of the govt.....seems solid, maybe i'll give it to CNN to run with....

[lawdog]

Duemellon:
YET BELIEVED ALL ALONG THAT IRAQ HAD WoMDs and CHEM/BIO WEAPONS
Wow, Due, you're one of the select minority who recognize that "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and Chem/Bio weapons are not the same! I've seen a few people in the press get this right, and a few people in the administration (Colin Powell, notably), but most people (Dubya, notably) conflate these two demonstrably different categories of weapons into one.

[BigSugar]

Originally posted by lawdog
Wow, Due, you're one of the select minority who recognize that "Weapons of Mass Destruction" and Chem/Bio weapons are not the same! I've seen a few people in the press get this right, and a few people in the administration (Colin Powell, notably), but most people (Dubya, notably) conflate these two demonstrably different categories of weapons into one.

WOMD.....designed to kill many people w/0 discriminating b/w soldier and civilian, combatant and non/combatant.....right?

if a VX rocket explodes over a city and kill 40,000 people, and a nuclear bomb goes off over a city and kill 100,000 people, besides the raw numbers and destruction of buildings/infrastructure, why would you declare one a WOMD and one something else? is it the mere act that nuclear weapons destroy brick and mortar while chem/bio weapons leave them in place (although uninhabitable). just not sure there's much of a distinction.

[Duemellon]

if a VX rocket explodes over a city and kill 40,000 people, and a nuclear bomb goes off over a city and kill 100,000 people, besides the raw numbers and destruction of buildings/infrastructure, why would you declare one a WOMD and one something else? is it the mere act that nuclear weapons destroy brick and mortar while chem/bio weapons leave them in place (although uninhabitable). just not sure there's much of a distinction.this guy is a genius, isn't he?

Lessee..
Rarely will any bio/chem weapon kill more than 1k as a single shot. They are rarely more effective than conventional weaponry and rely heavily on favorable conditions. The thing that makes bio/chem weapons so "heinous" in most pplz minds is the way in which the victim dies.

yes, bio/chem have different characteristics, such as being able to "silently" creep over the front into foxholes, or have a residual effect, even being able to be passed on from victim to victim. But their true effectiveness as a weapon of war has always been in doubt when compared to conventional.

Now, WoMD, designed to destroy large areas of land at once, well..

we all know that REALLY means nukes. Who the hell we kiddin? We just made a few bombs go off in Iraq, non nuclear, which are coming close to rivaling the ones dropped on Hiroshima & Nagisaki! Yet, they weren't nuclear. So, yeah, we call them conventional, but once a bomb gets the ability to destroy the WTC, the Pentagon, the White House, or the Sears tower in one fell swoop, then you have a WoMD, dont you?

If I was to pack a ship with 10,000 passengers and someone dropped a grenade the in "gas tank" that grenade is a WoMD? right?

WoMD = Nukes
Bio/Chem = incredibly heinous ways to die

Oh, again, u have my on ignore, yet u take pot-shots at me.

Childish coward.

[yoshomon]

Originally posted by Duemellon
Childish coward.

Or a very manly coward who looks cute in camo...

[DudeMan]

I gotta agree with BigSug on this one... Due, who ever said that WoMD meant only nuclear weapons?? (or nucular, as our prez likes to call 'em). I thnk it's generally known and understood the definition to include nucular, chemical and/or biological weapons, not just nukes.

We know that Saddam has had a nuclear weapons program in the past, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone posit that he'd produced any. (yet)

You are correct in saying that it is difficult to efficiently weaponize chemical weapons, but that doesn't mean they aren't classified as WoMDs.

[lawdog]

Originally posted by BigSugar


WOMD.....designed to kill many people w/0 discriminating b/w soldier and civilian, combatant and non/combatant.....right?

if a VX rocket explodes over a city and kill 40,000 people, and a nuclear bomb goes off over a city and kill 100,000 people, besides the raw numbers and destruction of buildings/infrastructure, why would you declare one a WOMD and one something else? is it the mere act that nuclear weapons destroy brick and mortar while chem/bio weapons leave them in place (although uninhabitable). just not sure there's much of a distinction.

Hmm...I think Due made the point that no Chem/Bio weapon is going to give you those kinds of numbers. In fact, some say that the reason WE decided to forego these kinds of weapons was not for humanitarian reasons, but because we doubted their efficacy.

For more on the distinction between Chem/Bio and WMD/Nuclear weapons, check this (http://slate.msn.com/id/2070188) article out.

I'd like to address one other thing from your post. You defined WMD as "designed to kill many people w/0 discriminating b/w soldier and civilian, combatant and non/combatant." With the exception of the very latest satellite guided weapons, how does that differ from ANY missile or bomb? If a Tomahawk missile and a VX rocket both slam into a hospital chock full o' orphans and nuns, they'll be dead either way. Your entire argument seems to rest on a misapprehension of how powerful Chem/Bio weapons are.

Sure, as the Tim Noah article notes, it's theoretically possible to wipe out a lot of folks with Chem/Bio weapons, but conditions would have to be right, and you would need a lot of the stuff, in multiple rockets with multiple warheads (in other words, you'd need a lot more and better missiles than what Saddam's been lobbing across the desert).

[lawdog]

Originally posted by DudeMan
I gotta agree with BigSug on this one... Due, who ever said that WoMD meant only nuclear weapons?? (or nucular, as our prez likes to call 'em). I thnk it's generally known and understood the definition to include nucular, chemical and/or biological weapons, not just nukes.

We know that Saddam has had a nuclear weapons program in the past, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone posit that he'd produced any. (yet)

You are correct in saying that it is difficult to efficiently weaponize chemical weapons, but that doesn't mean they aren't classified as WoMDs.

True, Bush, Cheney, and some media outlets refer to them as such, but that doesn't make it a correct classification or distinction. "Nucular" weapons are in class of their own, and lumping other, vastly less potent weapons in the same class undermines the seriousness with which we ought to treat true WMD.

Okay, that's all the ranting from me today. I'm feel like I'm turning into Duemellon here, and this town ain't big enough for two Duemellons.

[lawdog]

One more post...I just realized this thread was originally about posting the link to the drinking game, and not intended to be yet another bicker-fest. My apologies for contributing to its highjacking (although the thread starter was complicit in this as well). As soon as I get home, I'll do a shot as punishment.

[DudeMan]

Originally posted by lawdog

Okay, that's all the ranting from me today. I'm feel like I'm turning into Duemellon here, and this town ain't big enough for two Duemellons.
'sokay...

You've heard of the Dew Point, right? Well, there is a little-known corollary condition known as the Due-Point, which is the sudden and shameful epiphany that many Boarders have from time to time that they may have gotten a little out of hand. Chances are we've all reached the Due-Point at least once or twice.

Symptoms pointing to the possibility that one may have reached the Due-Point include (but are not limited to) the following:

1. Excessive ranting or rambling about something that no one quite understands
2. Repeating oneself endlessly
3. Completely missing someone else's point and then arguing vehemently against it
4. Hanging out in the Current Events/Politics forum a little too much
5. Hijacking a thread and turning it into a debate about something totally off-subject
6. Repeating oneself endlessly
7. Being overly-earnest and not cracking a joke every now and again
8. A "fondness" for liberal "use" of "quotation" marks
9. Shortening of words in a haphazzard and bizarre manner (eg, pplz for people)
10. Not giving the other guy the benefit of the doubt that even though you may disagree with him vehemently, he's still probably a good, well-meaning guy who it'd be fun to sit down for a beer with


Reaching the Due-Point needn't become chronic or permanent. (aka, 'Perma-Due'). In fact, it is reversible simply by relaxing and chilling out a little. Do a shot, smoke some herb, go for a run, turn off your computer for a while, etc., and you'll be feeling better in no time.

[Duemellon]

I'm simultaneously flattered and insulted. I'm not to sure to cry a happy laugh, or laugh a happy cry.

[monkey neck]

Yeah, hey, weren't we talking about getting thoroughly ripped a while ago? Y'all went and got all technical on us, usin' them big words like "Conflate" and "Conjecture".

2 shots for using the word "Conflate".

GAME ON!!!
:D

[Phreon]

How 'bout raising your glass for a moment in rememberance of those who have died in this war? Friend or foe, American or Iraqi, good or evil, the death of any human is reason for pause.


Phreon.

[Duemellon]

How 'bout raising your glass for a moment in rememberance of those who have died in this war? Friend or foe, American or Iraqi, good or evil, the death of any human is reason for pause.sounds good to me. Let's set a syncronized time for 10:59 pm tonight. Everyone grab a drink and take a moment to reflect on the loss of lives, innocents and enlisted, and say any appropriate spiritual things you want.

This is a serious response.

[lawdog]

A serious response, and a good idea. While we've been alternatively joking about this and arguing semantics, people half a world away are dying and/or having their lives uprooted. In an odd bit of synchronicity, I'd already poured a drink when I opened this thread. I'll take a moment at 10:59 for some reflection. Thanks, Phreon, were reminding us of the humanity of all this.

[BigSugar]

man calls me a childish coward and expects to get away with it....

Due, just to prove you wrong (again and again and again), i went to the University of Bristol UK (first site that popped up with the search term "VX") and found this:
_________
Synthesis of VX Gas
As well as being a weapon of mass destruction, the synthesis of nerve agents is highly dangerous to the scientist that does so. The synthesis of VX gas is also complicated and secret. Therefore, it cannot, and should not be described here.

The vital precursors are phosphites, phosphorous chlorides, and alkyl-diethanolamines. Sales of these chemicals are restricted under the Chemical Weapons Convention, most likely in an attempt to make synthesis of nerve gases more difficult.
___________

I'll keep going to find the kill ratio's if you really want me to slap your silly stupid head around some more.....

punk ass bitch.....and yes, i am a genius.....(btw, i only read your post b/c Yosh's included your amazingly weak slam on me, and i had to know exactly what kind of drivel you were spewing against me.)

so drink muthafucka, drink muthafucka, drink muthafucka DRINK!

beer shotgun if Due can actually prove me wrong!

[BigSugar]

From Magdallen College, Oxford England:

VX has not been used to its fullest potential yet because it is too dangerous to use for local attacks with wind that could blow the VX back onto the base. This factor has helped to keep VX from being used to cripple local nations. If these weapons were launched against a nation then there would be the possibility of a nuclear counterattack because VX is a weapon of mass destruction that spreads from impact point killing all in its path. This would be countered by another, which in a lot of cases, would be a nuclear bomb.
________________

there's that terminology again....weapon of mass destruction. as applied to a chemical weapon. guess Due really is wrong....again....

guess a little bit of research and a little less ego might have prevented another needless flaming.....it's sad that the children had to see this....they're so impressionable.

CDC Information on VX, Sarin and Mustard Gas (http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/vx/ctc0006.asp)

Interesting Link discussing the three types of weapons of mass destruction (Chemical, Biological and Nuclear) (http://www.be-prepared.info/vx-nerve-gas.html)

[Duemellon]

**yawns**

yeah, and one could find information that says the Bubonic Plague would kill millions, or that smallpox is the biggest threat to our society.

I dismiss your findings out-of-hand knowing that chemical agents from a single warhead may linger, or drift, but they do dissapate and become inert relatively quick limiting the ability for them to cause massive deaths.

A nucular bomb, however, instantly decimates an area and destroys buildings causing greater amounts of collatoral casualties. Honestly, there are many more ways to survive a chem/bio attack than a nucular attack.

But, nm, u'r on an ignorant rampage. Please contine "not to read" my posts yet respond and take pot-shots at me. It's amuzing arguing with you by proxy.

[BigSugar]

Conclusive Proof that Duemellon is Wrong (http://www.cfrterrorism.org/weapons/)

It's tough being a genious.....and again, a little bit of research on your part might have saved you some egg on your face for your incorrect assertions that chem/bio weapons don't "linger" and don't kill in the tens of thousands, and that they are not WoMD. God, it's such a chore being right all the time. I really should bottle my DNA and sell it on the black market. I could make billions! :)

[lawdog]

Oh, for God's sake, BigSug! There is no "conclusive proof" on either side! All you've done is post a couple of links that do characterize nerve agents as WMD. Due could post pages that don't (in fact, earlier, I did post a link to an article that discussed reasons why CBW shouldn't be considered WMD). I realize that Duemellon is not the most popular cat around here, but you're the one who's being completely unreasonable by just flaming people.

I suspect that's what you want, though, with your "conclusive proof" rhetoric--you're just trying to get people riled. Hopefully this will make you happy:

Oh, and nice job with making that Magdallen College page. Very official. I'm guessing that was a page a student cobbled together from various sources. Everyone knows the most authoritative sources of information come from webpages with big pictures of fuckin' Nic Cage movies at the top. I also try to get all my political advice from pages with pictures of Martin Sheen, and any information on the Military from pages with Sly Stallone. You know it's credible information when it comes from a someone who plays an expert on TV or the Movies!

[BigSugar]

LOL. when a tool of the devil calls me a "childish coward" and resorts to completely incorrect scientific information to support his specious claims, then yes, i flame the f*cker. and if there were so many pages to support the other side, please post them....i think the Council on Foreign Affairs page is pretty self explantory....and the CDC pages on exactly what these weapons do is ghastly....opinion pages on why chem/bio weapons "shouldn't" be categorized as WoMD to me aren't as convincing as scientific fact as to why they are. VX/Sarin/Mustard will kill and keep killing....and it renders a place unihabitable for up to 90 days after it's released. it's (VX anyway) incredibly stable and hard to destroy...Simple mustard gas killed over 5000 kurds in the late '80's when Saddam dropped a couple artillery shells into their village....i'd say that's pretty "mass" in the destruction category.

quite frankly, i just enjoy bashing Due's proverbial skull against the wall when he's wrong....esp. when he resorts to name calling.

new drinking game.....1 shot if due/I fight....2 if either of us are right....Finish the bottle if it's Due! :)

[Duemellon]

quite frankly, i just enjoy bashing Due's proverbial skull against the wall when he's wrong....esp. when he resorts to name calling. but you have me on ignore and lob haymakers from across the wall.

childish coward.

Look, i could spend all day flaming you, I'm sure I'd have some satisfaction from it. In an attempt to be clear on this, there are some bio/chem weapons, when done properly, could be a WoMD, but that depends on what you call a WoMD. Where is the precise description, the discrete point, when a weapon changes from beina WoModerateD, to a WoMD? Is it when it kills 1,000 in 10 sec? Or 100 within 500' feet of each other? or perhaps when it causes damage for an area greater than a single target?

So, therefore, WoMD and bio/chem could be considered independent classifications. However, in your attempt to "bash Due" you're missing the point. Just take a breather, relax, think of happy things, like ...

does anything make you happy?

[Duemellon]

oh, that's right, you're (BS) aren't out for a true debate, so you haven't read anything I wrote... however, you will respond occassionally with "conclusive proof Due is wrong".

Please, I ask again, even though it falls on deaf ears...
How is the description of bio/chem related to WoMD directly? Or are they independent classifications?

I mean, I could give someone AIDS intentionally, that's Bio/Chem with potentially wide-spreading effect... is that a WoMD or a just a Bio/Chem?

I could put a thousand people into a condemned building, kick the main-support out with a sledgehammer (run like hell) and then my sledge-hammer is a WoMD.

WoMD, in my mind, implies nukes. Why? Because no matter how big one of our bombs are, as long as it doesn't include fission or fusion, we won't consider it using WoMD. And the world will let us. If we went to war with Japan and one of these bombs took out the Yakamoto building (completely fabricated name) with 5000 ppl in it, is it not a WoMD strike?

I'm just calling you to the mat again for takin snipes at me and my arguments but not trying to hear the contrary side.

CC

[Danosaur]

Sweet, a little heat. Look guys what is done is done. Saddam is in power no more, and most Iraqi's rejoice in this fact. Weapons of mass destruction or not, Saddam would have killed us all in a second if he could, and I am for sure he would have liked to kill the Bush's a few times over. It's all true, Saddam was trying to collect weapons of mass destruction. Bush's hatred of Saddam was also a family thing. The Bath party was destroying the people of Iraq. We jumped the international gun and we also had troops in Iraq before our own deadline. It's all true, but now it's done. What of the future? One question I would like for Bush to answer is how he can be for guns (i.e. "guns don't kill people, people do") and be for preemptive strikes, Weapons of Mass Destruction don't kill people, Gov'ts do, right?