Damn, the interweb can't be used as evidence...

[markalot]

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081031/NEWS0106/810310417/1055/NEWS

Obama challenge rejected

By Sheila McLaughlin
smclaughlin@enquirer.com

Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner won’t have to prove Barack Obama’s citizenship or throw him off the ballot.

A Warren County magistrate didn’t buy David M. Neal’s argument that Brunner had a duty to verify whether Obama qualified to be president. Neal relied too much on what he read on the Web, Magistrate Andrew Hasselbach said.

“The onus is upon one who challenges such public officer to demonstrate an abuse of discretion by admissible evidence – not hearsay, conclusory allegations or pure speculation,” Hasselbach wrote in his decision issued shortly before noon today.

“It is abundantly clear that the allegations in Plaintiff’s complaint concerning ‘questions’ about Senator Obama’s status as a ‘natural born citizen’ are derived from Internet sources, the accuracy of which has not been demonstrated to either Defendant Brunner or this magistrate.”

Neal, of Turtlecreek Township, filed suit last week seeking to force Brunner to demand documents from the Federal Elections Commission, the Democratic National Committee, the Ohio Democratic Party and possibly Obama himself to verify that the candidate was born in Hawaii. Neal asserted that the short-form birth certificate posted on Obama’s Web site was not an original document.

The U.S. Constitution requires presidents to be natural-born citizens who are at least 35 years old.

Yet this controversy has lingered even though various fact-checking groups and journalists have concluded that Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate appears to be authentic.

"When I enrolled my son in Knothole, I had to show his birth certificate ... This guy is running for president of the United States," said Neal, who runs a political Web site and claims to be part of a nationwide grass-roots movement questioning Obama's qualifications.

Brunner's legal team, two assistants from the Ohio Attorney General's Office, said little at the hearing. Their arguments to have the lawsuit thrown out of court were filed just before the hearing.

Brunner's legal team had argued against Neal's request for several reasons, including the lateness of the filing. They noted that Ohio is a dead-heat state where turnout could run as high as 6.5 million voters.

"One can conservatively estimate that more than 3 million Ohioans intend to vote for Senator Obama. Mr. Neal asks this Court to disenfranchise those 3 million voters based solely on rumor and innuendo," Mike Schuler, an assistant attorney general wrote.

Hundreds of thousands of voters who already have cast absentee ballots for Obama would also have been affected.

[drougan]

I'm curious though....what if you were born to American parents living abroad? Foreign Service in the State Dept, Missionary work, AmeriCorp, or the like. What's the deal with that?

[clonE]

If you're born on US soil you're a citizen. That includes embassies and military bases elsewhere but not, for instance, your Americorp baby born in a village.

At least that's my understanding.

[drougan]

If you're born on US soil you're a citizen. That includes embassies and military bases elsewhere but not, for instance, your Americorp baby born in a village.

At least that's my understanding.

Yes, but, one would presume that the American consulate doesnt have any hand in delivering babies, and birth would just be done the normal way at the local hospital, or by midwife, or whatever.

I know there isn't generally considered an issue with citizenship in these cases, but the birth certificate is issued by the local authorities (I think) and technically the kid has dual citizenship in some countries. There may be some procedure also for the citizenship of the baby verified through the embassy or whatever.

I used to know people with interesting citizenship status but I've either a)forgotten who they are or b)fallen out of touch with them.

[geoboy]

If one of your parents is American, then you're considered a natural-born American citizen, and so is your Peace Corp baby.

[drougan]

Hmmm...excellent, so let's figure out the absolute minimum qualifying scenario.

An expat from some other country becomes a naturalized american citizen, let's say he's male.

Xpat man joins US army, is stationed overseas, knocks up a local woman

let's assume the parents get married and move back to US. That baby can run for prez.

But what if they don't get married and the kid stays with mom. There comes a time where he has to declare his citizenship and he opts for US to come and attend college with dad. I guess the kid can run for prez too as long as one parent is a citizen and that kid never claims citizenship in another country.

Imagine the fiasco surrounding that one. :eek:

[BigSugar]

At the time of Obama's birth, simply being born to a US citizen parent did not convey citizenship on the baby. You had to be born on US soil (Obama says Hawaii, the federal suit by Berg says that he was born in Kenya, and Obama has produced a few documents to prove it, one of which was the photoshopped Certificate of Live Birth of his sister). There are issues as well with his declared citizenship in Indonesia when his mother married and moved to Indonesia and changed his name...Obama traveled on an Indonesian passport as an adult, which means that he had to be a citizen of Indonesia at the time (Indonesia didn't allow dual citizenship). If he indeed was a citizen of Indonesia, AND he was born in Hawaii, then he would have had to renounce his Indonesian citizenship and re-take the oath of citizenship to the United States in front of some consular official and would have the corresponding records. Those don't exist.

If he wasn't born in Hawaii (which is a 50/50 proposition until discovery is complete in the federal suit) and his mother never changed her citizenship back to US after her time in Indonesia as an Indonesian citizen, he doesn't qualify under any years laws as a "natural born citizen" of the United States under the Constitution and cannot run for president.

Naturalized citizens are not eligible to be president or VP.

I had a similar situation come up in a case: my client was born to a mexican mother and allegedly a US soldier in Mexico. she's got her US passport/SS#/etc....a US citizen for all intents and purposes. However, it turns out that her purported father wasn't really her father and she has no right to citizenship. in her criminal matter, ICE mentioned this fact, and they had the documents to slam her, but chose not to pursue the issue. So my client was able to maintain her US citizenship as a "natural born citizen" and wasn't deported. This stuff is way more common than you would think.....the laws are different now than when Obama was born, but it can still be a little sticky if you're born outside the US. My sister was born in Mexico (two US parents) and held dual citizenship til she was 18, when she was asked by the US govt. to choose one or the other. She chose wisely, thereby avoiding deportation to a country she hadn't been to since she was 3 years old. :) The movie Born in East LA was out around that time as well, so we all got a good laugh out of that.

[the_birds]

The Swamp
Is Barack Obama a US citizen? Yes.

By John Crewdson

Just when you thought it was safe to turn on the TV......

It took some weeks to settle the ultimately irrelevant and immaterial question of whether Arizona Sen. John McCain, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, was eligible to become president. Irrelevant and immaterial because, should McCain win the election, can you imagine the courts invalidating his triumph by declaring him constitutionally ineligible to hold the office to which he had just been elected? Been down that road, as I recall.

Nevertheless, senators from both parties (Patrick Leahy and Tom Coburn) and constitutional scholars of the left and right (Lawrence Tribe and Theodore Olsen) examined the law and the facts and announced that McCain, who was born to American parents in a U.S. naval hospital in the U.S.-administered Panama Canal Zone, met the Second Amendment's requirement that a president must be a "natural-born citizen."

The Constitution doesn't define "natural-born citizen;" as generations of jurists have pointed out, much of that document's brilliance lies in its ambiguity. But a little research showed that the question had actually been asked and answered way back in 1790, when the very first Congress passed a statute declaring that "the children of citizens of the United States, that may be borne beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural-born citizens of the United States." The Senate unanimously passed a resolution recognizing that "John Sidney McCain III is a natural-born citizen." On to more important things.

Or so we thought.

Now making the Internet rounds is a posting questioning whether McCain's presumptive Democratic opponent, Illinois Sen. Barack Obama is a natural-born citizen and therefore constitutionally qualified to be president. I suppose it was only a matter of time.

Anyway, this particular post, whose authorship is unclear, suggests that Obama is "not legally a U.S. natural-born citizen under to the law on the books at the time of his birth...". According to the poster, if only one parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of birth, the citizen-parent "must have resided in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16." Obama's father, of course, was not an American citizen, having been born in Kenya. That leaves his mother, who was a natural-born citizen, but who was only 18 when Obama was born, on August 4, 1961. In the poster's opinion, Obama fails the constitutional test because his citizen-mother had not resided in the U.S. for five years after the age of 16--not old enough, at the time of Obama's birth, "to qualify her son for automatic U.S. citizenship."

Now pay strict attention, because I'm only going to explain this once: Is Barack Obama a natural-born citizen of the United States and therefore eligible to become president? The answer is yes, according to Ron Gotcher, a noted California immigration lawyer and The Swamp's resident expert on presidential eligibility.

"The poster's confusion," Gotcher writes, "is over the concepts of jus sanguinis and jus soli." Under jus sanguinis, a person's citizenship is transmitted "by the blood" - by inheritance from his or her parents or grandparents. In the United States, we recognize citizenship through parentage in a number of cases.

But it is not necessary to look to the statutes that deal with citizenship through jus sanguinis, since Senator Obama's citizenship derives from jus soli - citizenship through place of birth.

According to Gotcher, "The Fourteenth Amendment commands that "[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States , and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside."

"This was clarified by the Civil Rights Act of April 9, 1866, which provided that 'All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power are declared to be citizens of the United States.'"

"Senator Obama was born in the State of Hawaii two years after it became a state on Aug.21, 1959 As such, he acquired United States citizenship automatically at birth. While it is not necessary to go into all of the other legal errors contained in the posting (and there are many), the simple fact is that, with rare exceptions (children of diplomats), everyone born in the United States is a citizen of the United States at birth."

But what about the age of Obama's mother? Remember jus soli--citizenship through place of birth? (c'mon--there IS going to be a quiz). In that case--which happens to be Obama's case--the age of the parents has nothing to do with anything. Under jus soli even the children of illegal aliens are U.S. citizens at birth--just ask the pregnant women from Mexico near the end of their third trimester who try to sneak across the border in hopes their child will be born in a San Diego hospital and leave with a U.S. birth certificate clutched in his or her tiny hand.

Except for the children of diplomats, every child born in the U.S. is a natural-born U.S. citizen, period. The parents could be citizens themselves, could be from France, could be Coneheads. Nothing else matters. Only if the child is born OUTSIDE the United States to one citizen-parent does the issue of the parents' age, citizenship, or whatever, come into play.

"All that matters is that the child is born here, " Gotcher says. "This is the reason that you are hearing so much fuss in Congress about changing the law that grants 'birthright citizenship.'" But even such a law, however unlikely to pass, would not be retroactive. If Barack Obama wins the presidential election he can begin choosing the furniture for the Oval Office without watching for immigration agents over his shoulder.

Posted by Naftali Bendavid on June 12, 2008 2:59 PM

[Sovrana]

At the time of Obama's birth, simply being born to a US citizen parent did not convey citizenship on the baby. You had to be born on US soil (Obama says Hawaii, the federal suit by Berg says that he was born in Kenya, and Obama has produced a few documents to prove it, one of which was the photoshopped Certificate of Live Birth of his sister). There are issues as well with his declared citizenship in Indonesia when his mother married and moved to Indonesia and changed his name...Obama traveled on an Indonesian passport as an adult, which means that he had to be a citizen of Indonesia at the time (Indonesia didn't allow dual citizenship). If he indeed was a citizen of Indonesia, AND he was born in Hawaii, then he would have had to renounce his Indonesian citizenship and re-take the oath of citizenship to the United States in front of some consular official and would have the corresponding records. Those don't exist.

If he wasn't born in Hawaii (which is a 50/50 proposition until discovery is complete in the federal suit) and his mother never changed her citizenship back to US after her time in Indonesia as an Indonesian citizen, he doesn't qualify under any years laws as a "natural born citizen" of the United States under the Constitution and cannot run for president.

Naturalized citizens are not eligible to be president or VP.



This is the part I don't understand.
Obama says Hawaii and Berg says Kenya. Obama has a birth certificate and Berg has....isn't it a recording of a women alleged to be Obama's grandmother saying she was in the delivery room in Kenya? Is this what makes the the proposition 50/50? And how?

[the_birds]

This is the part I don't understand.
Obama says Hawaii and Berg says Kenya. Obama has a birth certificate and Berg has....isn't it a recording of a women alleged to be Obama's grandmother saying she was in the delivery room in Kenya? Is this what makes the the proposition 50/50? And how?

The part I listed below, in Bold, Italics and Underlined, nullifies any claims against Obama's citizenship. The same argument from the birthing throes of the country that makes McCain a citizen, also makes Obama a citizen. If you're born to a US citizen, you're a US citizen.

Only if you were to remove that point would it be subject to his place of birth. But this is all an exercise in futility.

[BigSugar]

The part I listed below, in Bold, Italics and Underlined, nullifies any claims against Obama's citizenship. The same argument from the birthing throes of the country that makes McCain a citizen, also makes Obama a citizen. If you're born to a US citizen, you're a US citizen.

Only if you were to remove that point would it be subject to his place of birth. But this is all an exercise in futility.

i just did a quick US Code search and couldn't find that statute that was cited from 1790. will look more when have a chance and try and cite it.

if he indeed though had an Indonesian passport and citizenship, then he would have had to renounce his US citizenship to get it.....if he did that (or his mother did it for him as a minor), then he would have had to re-affirm his US citizenship at some point after reaching adulthood. i personally believe that if his mother was a US citizen, then regardless, he should be considered a natural born US citizen, absent him renouncing it at some point.

i think it's all a political game when all is said and done, but it definitely begs the question "why not just pony up the right documents in the first place and end the issue", and why the inconsistencies in the historical record that has been produced or discovered.

[Sovrana]

i just did a quick US Code search and couldn't find that statute that was cited from 1790. will look more when have a chance and try and cite it.

if he indeed though had an Indonesian passport and citizenship, then he would have had to renounce his US citizenship to get it.....if he did that (or his mother did it for him as a minor), then he would have had to re-affirm his US citizenship at some point after reaching adulthood. i personally believe that if his mother was a US citizen, then regardless, he should be considered a natural born US citizen, absent him renouncing it at some point.

i think it's all a political game when all is said and done, but it definitely begs the question "why not just pony up the right documents in the first place and end the issue", and why the inconsistencies in the historical record that has been produced or discovered.

And this is the other part that gets me. Taking the time to justify the question (citing legal documents, tape recordings, etc. only to say "hey, I'm sure he's a citizen. Why didn't he just prove it?" This is exactly how this debate always ends.

[BigSugar]

And this is the other part that gets me. Taking the time to justify the question (citing legal documents, tape recordings, etc. only to say "hey, I'm sure he's a citizen. Why didn't he just prove it?" This is exactly how this debate always ends.

right, but he's a smart politician. and smart politicians don't let shit like this linger. but he has.....

i could produce my original birth certificate in about 10 minutes, or expedite a new original from the state of kentucky and have it in a week if i needed it. why would Obama leave this thing linger like this....all it does is add to the conspiracy theory....produce the document, have a press conference and call the ignorant bastards out for what they are and end the issue. or let the issue hang there like a nasty white castle fart in a windowless room. one is a smart move, the other could easily lead to suffocation death. :)

[Sovrana]

I suppose so.
How long did it take for the birth certificate to show up on his website?

[Duemellon]

John McCain wasn't shot down in 'nam & in fact, he was doing ridiculous stunts & crashed.

I've brought this up before & no one has provided evidence to the contrary other than his own testimony & the Viet Kong. We know the Viet Kong would love to exaggerate their victories so any report of them shooting or killing anyone better be followed up with heads or dogtags.

We should know the whole truth. John, what really happened in 'nam?

[miami2112]

do we really think the dem party did not have this checked out and verified before nominating him?

[Sovrana]

I suppose so.
How long did it take for the birth certificate to show up on his website?

oh...I meant to ask. Are we still waiting for McCain, Palin, and Biden to provide us with proof of their citizenship? I keep forgetting to ask about them.

[Shlep]

I can't say I am an expert on the finer points of the law vis-a-vis the eligibility requirements for American citizenship; I am fairly certain that the progeny of Americans citizens deployed abroad at the behest of the government-- such as military and diplomatic personnel-- are automatically citizens, if only because the spot to which they are sent to tends to be regarded as US soil by the US government, the host government, or both.

Whatever the case, I think it's a damned good thing-- and in the very bests interests of both parties-- that this petty, idiotic, and execrable eleventh-hour attempt to derail Baracks' campaign fell on its ass and got tossed out. Even if it succeeded and Obama was obliged to bow out, I feel quite certain that is would have inspired undecided or otherwise apathetic voters to register their disgust by heading to the polls in droves to vote for Biden (assuming he was elevated to the #1 slot on the ticket) or whoever else may have been offered the job.

do we really think the dem party did not have this checked out and verified before nominating him?

Unless my sources are flawed, I'd say that one would certainly hope so, seeing as how one of the immutable eligibility requirements for the office of Senator is that the prospective candidate be a citizen for at least nine years prior to making their bid for the job.

John McCain wasn't shot down in 'nam & in fact, he was doing ridiculous stunts & crashed.

I've brought this up before & no one has provided evidence to the contrary other than his own testimony & the Viet Kong.

I'd say that this would be because everyone assumed you were kidding, especially since you spelled "Vietcong" wrong. If you were serious, then I can't imagine anyone would want to dignify this palpably absurd notion with a detailed rebuttal.

[Ambassador V3.0]

I'd say that this would be because everyone assumed you were kidding, especially since you spelled "Vietcong" wrong. If you were serious, then I can't imagine anyone would want to dignify this palpably absurd notion with a detailed rebuttal.

I'd say if it were Hong Kong, that is not a half bad place. The VC on the other hand, would be a different story. :cool: No rebuttals or dignification needed. :D

[frizgolf]

I'd say that this would be because everyone assumed you were kidding, especially since you spelled "Vietcong" wrong. If you were serious, then I can't imagine anyone would want to dignify this palpably absurd notion with a detailed rebuttal.

Are there buildings tall enough for the Viet Kong to climb?
We all know his cousin King knocked down planes. If you asked Viet, would he even admit it?

[ICONOCLAST420]

oh...I meant to ask. Are we still waiting for McCain, Palin, and Biden to provide us with proof of their citizenship? I keep forgetting to ask about them.

McCain was born in the Canal Zone. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html)

[Slar]

McCain was born in the Canal Zone.[/URL]Palin was born in Alaska, but you could see Russia from the hospital.

[Frost]

Just to put this little bit of nonsense to bed and kiss it goodnight-


Obama's Birth Certificate Verified By State (http://www.kitv.com/politics/17860890/detail.html)


The state's Department of Health director on Friday released a statement verifying the legitimacy of Sen. Barack Obama birth certificate.

The state has received multiple requests for a copy of Obama's birth certificate. State law does not allow officials to release the birth certificate of a person to someone outside of the family.

There were rumors that Obama was born in Kenya, where his father is from. The Constitution requires that the president be a natural born citizen of the U.S.

While many sites and news organizations have released copies provided by the Obama campaign, the rumors have persisted.

"There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record," DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

Fukino said she and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate.

"Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures," Fukino said.

Fukino said that no state official, including Gov. Linda Lingle, ever instructed that Obama's certificate be handled differently from any other.

Some Obama critics claim he was not born in the United States.

Multiple lawsuits were filed to try and force Obama to provide proof of citizenship. Earlier Friday, a southwest Ohio magistrate rejected a challenge to Obama's U.S. citizenship. Judges in Seattle and Philadelphia recently dismissed similar suits.

[monkey neck]

Are there buildings tall enough for the Viet Kong to climb?
We all know his cousin King knocked down planes. If you asked Viet, would he even admit it?

Probably not, but his other cousin Donkey would. Then he'd throw barrels at you.

[frizgolf]

Probably not, but his other cousin Donkey would. Then he'd throw barrels at you.

You're killing me here, man. :p