Obama's Magically Shrinking Tax Cut

[BigSugar]

So, we all know that Obama has for the last 2 years of his campaign said "i will cut taxes for those making under 250K per year, right? just the rich get hit....stupid rich fuckers....how dare they make more money!

So i'm watching TV last night and an Obama ad comes on and in big bold numbers, he announces that anyone making under 200K per year will get a tax cut........huh?? where'd the 250K go? even my dog looked at the TV funny like she'd smelled her own farts.....

Then I see Biden on TV in Scranton touting the Obama tax cut saying that anyone making under 150K will get a tax cut......Say WHAAAA!!???

So, in the last three days, Obama and Biden have taken their "we love the middle class and will tax those rich bastards making a cool quarter mil a year or more" to "yeah, some of you middle class families are gonna take it in the chops too, b/c we just can't fund our projects only taxing 250K and above.....

Do i hear 100K? 75K!? Going once........going twice.......

talk about arrogance...the fucking moron can't even wait until after election day to renege on his campaign promises! LOL!

From NBC's Mark Murray and NBC/NJ's Mike Memoli
The McCain campaign is jumping all over Biden's interview yesterday with a Scranton TV affiliate, in which Biden said that people making under $150,000 per year would get a tax cut under Obama's tax plan.

McCain even mentioned it during his speech today in Pennsylvania, noting all the different numbers Obama and his campaign are citing on the tax issue. “Sen. Obama has made a lot of promises," the Arizona senator said in remarks his campaign passed around to reporters. "First, he said people making less than 250,000 dollars would benefit from his plan. Then this weekend, he announced in an ad that if you're a family making less than 200,000 dollars you'll benefit. But yesterday, right here in Pennsylvania, Sen, Biden said tax relief should only go to 'middle class people -- people making under 150,000 dollars a year.' It's interesting how their definition of rich has a way of creeping down. At this rate, it won't be long before Senator Obama is right back to his vote that Americans making just 42,000 dollars a year should get a tax increase. We can't let that happen.”

[justa bill]

yeah, i noticed that too. i don't think any campaign promise is safe...

[markalot]

Calculator:

http://taxcut.barackobama.com

Odd.

However if you are single and make 150K you will get $34 bucks back as long as you don't have any dependents. Hmmm.

[Duemellon]

Did you notice? It's not hard math.

Over 250k your taxes increase
Under 200k your taxes decrease

Which means what about those over 200k & under 250k?
It means they weren't mentioned.

Now, as for $150k? That's just a gaffe. Get over it.

[markalot]

Joe Biden gaffed? No!

[the happy prole]

But why would Obama start backing down on promises before he's elected?*
If it's a legitimate change in stance, I'm guessing the state of the economy may have something to do with it.

Either way it's fine with me. It actually makes his budget more fiscally responsible.


*My guess:
1) Biden didn't gaffe. He said tax cuts should got to the middle class, meaning 95% of people. It wasn't intended to be an exact figure out of the tax plan.

2) $250k for households, $200 for single filers.

[markalot]

But why would Obama start backing down on promises before he's elected?*
If it's a legitimate change in stance, I'm guessing the state of the economy may have something to do with it.

Either way it's fine with me. It actually makes his budget more fiscally responsible.


*My guess:
1) Biden didn't gaffe. He said tax cuts should got to the middle class, meaning 95% of people. It wasn't intended to be an exact figure out of the tax plan.

2) $250k for households, $200 for single filers.

The calculator indicates the opposite. :)

[the happy prole]

Whatever. ;)

The thing is that between $200-$300k the differences are so minimal it's really not worth arguing about. Effectively, they are unchanged.

And no one really knows what someone's tax cut will be, it's based on analysis by different groups. So there's just a fuzziness between whether they are talking about the same filers, the same tax analysis, or misinterpretation the way Due points out that "People making <$250k will not have taxes increased" is not the same as "People making <$250 will have their taxes decreased."

I'm not saying this because I'm biased in favor of Obama. It just doesn't make any sense for him to change his platform now. He's winning. And if he were to change, he'd go in the other direction. He's taking heat over the "redistribution" thing, why would he go and redistribute MORE wealth?

I could see if Obama was totally kicking ass like up 60-40 and the election was in the bag why he might start to soften things up, but he doesn't have that commanding a lead. I mean, he's up, he'll probably win, but it's not a "start celebrating at the 10 yard line" kind of lead.

[supra-genius]

From the tax policy center, as reported on CNN Link (http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/29/news/economy/candidates_tax_plans/index.htm?cnn=yes)

BREAKING DOWN THE NUMBERS
Here's how average tax bills could change in 2009 if the candidates' tax proposals were fully in effect.* An average decline doesn't mean everyone's bill in a given group would fall, nor does an average increase imply everyone's bill goes up.
_______________MCCAIN________OBAMA
Income_______ Avg. tax bill ___ Avg. tax bill
Over $2.9M____ -$577,148____ +$699,872
$603K and up___-$109,214_____+$121,689
$227K-$603K ____-$15,877_______+$942
$161K-$227K_____-6,322_______-$2,796
$112K-$161K_____-$3,736______-$2,135
$66K-$112K______-$1,487______-$1,264
$38K-$66K________-$608_______-$1,118
$19K-$38K________-$259_______-$892
Under $19K________-$65________-$567


* Not all proposals are slated for 2009. Example: Obama's proposal to increase what high-income earners must pay into Social Security. The campaign said such a measure wouldn't take effect for 10 years.

[Docta]

the line is that no one making under a quarter million dollars per year will see an income tax increase. those making 200-250k per year will not get a tax cut but will not see a tax increase. anyone have a quote of him actually saying everyone under 250k would get a tax cut?

[berzerker]

the line is that no one making under a quarter million dollars per year will see an income tax increase. those making 200-250k per year will not get a tax cut but will not see a tax increase. anyone have a quote of him actually saying everyone under 250k would get a tax cut?

Exactly.

And, fuck the middle class anyway, right? Only the rich people matter. All others are stereotypically only worthy of scorn and belittlement.

[Lonestar]

The GOP are searching for anything ANYTHING to knock Obama.. His tax plan is crystal clear.. Stop listening to 15 second snippets on Fox and read his plan...

[markalot]

Exactly.

And, fuck the middle class anyway, right? Only the rich people matter. All others are stereotypically only worthy of scorn and belittlement.

What's the difference between that attitude and the fuck the rich attitude?

A tax rate based on percentage of income guarantees that the more I make the more I'll pay. It should be a flat percentage, in my opinion, with a cutoff below a certain income.

What's funny is how people view others who make more than they do. They should be able to afford it, right? You ready to set the limit on how big a house or how much stuff they can buy? How about you? Do you live better than someone who makes less than you? How fucking dare you!


Make more, spend more.

[OldManIndieKid]

The quotes that Suntzu posted below do not say that you will receive a tax cut if you make less than 250 K. I agree with Docta, Obama never said this. His message has been consistent.

And Biden didn't lie did he? If you make less than 150K, you will get a tax cut? Where's the lie? ;-)

[the happy prole]

A tax rate based on percentage of income guarantees that the more I make the more I'll pay.

I guess I just don't see a problem with this at all.

I mean, sure if for every $10 you make they take away $9 or even $5 I could see how you might be like "Hey, it's really not worth it."

But if you make an extra $10 and they take away $1, you're $9 ahead which is a considerable amount. I just can't see how you can tout someone as a heroic awesomely hard-working brave American if they're going to just focus on the $1 they lose instead of the $9 they gain and just give up.

It's like "I don't care how much I get paid, I will always give 100% at my job because I was brought up to believe in the value of hard work. Oh wait... the government's taking away a $1?!? Fuck that, I quit."

You can see it in that spam email. Ol' Corey Miller's complaining about the attitude of people who won't work hard unless they get more money, and then basically cops the exact same attitude. And if his stories about how hard he's working just to "save a little for retirement" are true, he's not even in any danger of passing $250k in persona income. He's probably going to get a tax BREAK. So he's all worried about crap that doesn't even affect him.

He should be all like "More Weight" and then I'd be all "A fearsome man, was Corey Giles" instead of "A total whiner, was Corey Miller."

[jneale]

Increase taxes on one group – give the another – at what point do you address the deficit OR ever increasing government spending?

Pander to the masses - take from the rich & give to the poor – that isn’t going to help anything.

To be fair and balanced – McCain talking about cutting taxes is foolish too – the only way to fix things is to start paying the bills – NOT increasing debt or social programs

[Duemellon]

What's the difference between that attitude and the fuck the rich attitude?

A tax rate based on percentage of income guarantees that the more I make the more I'll pay. It should be a flat percentage, in my opinion, with a cutoff below a certain income.The only reason I don't agree with a flat tax is that not every bit of income is properly taxed. Furthermore, once you get rich enough, you don't need anymore income. You just live off of what you earned. Therefore, no more income tax. If you got $1mil in one bundle & paid 25% of your income

If you get $1mil over the course of working 30 years, you still paid 25% of it until you got your last paycheck.All's fair right?

Well, it's about getting the $ up front versus getting it over time. Especially considering places that you can earn income without taxes (specifically: Dividend Tax). That means the full $1mil can work for you without paying anything for the income. Sure, you can't necessarily live off of 10% of $1mil for a year, but that's the idea I'm getting to.

[the happy prole]

isn't 200K less than 250K? really, what am I missing here.:confused:

His message is consistent in the way Duemellon mentioned:

"If you make less than a quarter of a million dollars a year, you will not see a single dime of your taxes go up."

If you make $200k or less, your taxes will actually go down. If you make $200-$250k, your taxes will be the same. Thus, no one making less than a quarter of a million dollars a year will see their taxes go up.

If the structure is:

<$200k-- taxes go down
$200-$250k-- taxes stay the same
>$250-- taxes go up

then all of Obama's statements you quoted are consistent with that structure.

[markalot]

Does a bigger font help? :p

a middle-class tax cut for people making less than $200,000



I'd take a tax increase if the money was guaranteed to pay off debt, but that can't happen because politicians would just increase spending somewhere else and add the debt back.

[berzerker]

October 7, 2008 Debate (http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2008c.html)


So let's be clear about my tax plan and Senator McCain's, because we're not going to be able to deal with entitlements unless we understand the revenues coming in. I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of Americans, 95 percent.

If you make less than a quarter of a million dollars a year, you will not see a single dime of your taxes go up. If you make $200,000 a year or less, your taxes will go down.

October 15, 2008 Debate (http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/debates/transcripts/third-presidential-debate.html)




edit: Obama himself said $150K back in June (http://bourbonroom.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/07/28/obama-defines-middle-class/)

isn't 200K less than 250K? really, what am I missing here.:confused:

He was comparing his tax plan to McCain's - his plan would provide a tax cut (by staying the same) vs. McCain's proposed increase.

Context, man. You should get one.

[the happy prole]

Increase taxes on one group – give the another – at what point do you address the deficit OR ever increasing government spending?


Under Obama's plan, the amount generated by increasing taxes on the rich exceeds the amount of tax breaks to the poor.

Thus, Obama's plan would reduce the deficit if spending remained the same, although you are right that we will also have to look at the spending side of the equation to know for sure.

[the happy prole]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/surlyman/venn.jpg

People with incomes under $150k getting a tax decrease? Yes
People with incomes under $200k getting a tax decrease? Yes
People with incomes under $250k not getting a tax increase? Yes

[jneale]

Under Obama's plan, the amount generated by increasing taxes on the rich exceeds the amount of tax breaks to the poor.

Thus, Obama's plan would reduce the deficit if spending remained the same, although you are right that we will also have to look at the spending side of the equation to know for sure.

& I wish they'd both talk about that big IF - tell me 'bout how you are gonna cut the need for taxes...

The truth is they both have been reading this tax script they created over a year ago - things have changed & we're fools if we belive either of their plans as i doubt EITHER plan has been adjusted for the recent turn of events.

[dannyboy]

All of this is also assuming that they can get their plans through Congress.

[TripleShockPowa]

I make less then the difference between these two sums.

WTF do I care! IMHO, $150K/yr is NOT middle class!

To me, after you crest $75k/yr you're starting to leave middle class.

[drougan]

I make less then the difference between these two sums.

WTF do I care! IMHO, $150K/yr is NOT middle class!

To me, after you crest $75k/yr you're starting to leave middle class.

Depends on where you live.

[jneale]

Depends on where you live.

& if it is single or married, hitting $75k, or even $100k isn't difficult for a married couple

[Fourthisto]

i don't think any campaign promise is safe...Just like every other election, for either party. At least neither candidate is saying "READ. MY. LIPS...."

Promises, ideas and agendas change the second they get in the big chair in the oval office. Vote for whose judgment you can trust when they get there, not the double-talk they feed to television.

_______________MCCAIN________OBAMA
Income_______ Avg. tax bill ___ Avg. tax bill
Over $2.9M____ -$577,148____ +$699,872
$603K and up___-$109,214_____+$121,689
$227K-$603K ____-$15,877_______+$942
$161K-$227K_____-6,322_______-$2,796
$112K-$161K_____-$3,736______-$2,135
$66K-$112K______-$1,487______-$1,264
$38K-$66K________-$608_______-$1,118
$19K-$38K________-$259_______-$892
Under $19K________-$65________-$567
This is a fun little thing. So if I plan on hitting the lottery or making more than $66,000 a year, vote for McCain, if I plan on making less than $66,000 next year, vote Obama. Is it really that simple? :)

All of this is also assuming that they can get their plans through Congress.Exactly, and assuming things don't change by the time they get there.

[Slar]

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/thread.gif

[berzerker]

And, fuck the middle class anyway, right? Only the rich people matter. All others are stereotypically only worthy of scorn and belittlement.

What's the difference between that attitude and the fuck the rich attitude?

Neither of them are healthy.

Unfortunately, lots of people have an "us vs. them" mentality that is counterproductive to actually getting anything accomplished.

[markalot]

Neither of them are healthy.

Unfortunately, lots of people have an "us vs. them" mentality that is counterproductive to actually getting anything accomplished.


Screw them, we're better than that! :D

[berzerker]

Screw them, we're better than that! :D

People like us need to stick together... :);)

[the happy prole]

Did he at some point say that he was only going to cut taxes for those under $150k and not those above? I'm not saying he didn't, just that none of those statements say that explicitly.

This is the quote:

OBAMA: You know, what I would say is, if you are making more than $250,000, than you’re more than middle class. You’re doing better. If you are making less than $250,000, then you are definitely somewhere in the middle class.

And if you’re making $150,000 or less, than I think most Americans would agree that you’re middle class. So that’s why the fact that if you are making less than $250,000, you will not see your taxes go up under an Obama administration. And you will get tax cuts and more money in your pocket if you make less $150,000.

He's using $150,000 to define what the public views as middle class, and saying they will get a tax cut. That is true.

I guess his view is that $250,000 is middle class, so his plan also ensures that those who make $250,000 or less don't see a tax increase.

[emmanuellewis]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v496/surlyman/venn.jpg

People with incomes under $150k getting a tax decrease? Yes
People with incomes under $200k getting a tax decrease? Yes
People with incomes under $250k not getting a tax increase? Yes

hold on a second... let me see if ive got this.

so if i made over 250K, obama wants to lower my taxes. yet if i make anything less than 200K a year, he wants to raise them?

fairness my ass.

[emmanuellewis]

just kidding

[Slar]

just kiddingI knew we could count on you! I even found a picture of you making the "O"bama hand gesture.

http://b1ff.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/emmanuel_lewis.jpg

[upwithpeople]

I knew we could count on you! I even found a picture of you making the "O"bama hand gesture.

http://b1ff.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/emmanuel_lewis.jpgRemember the amazing days of the past (24 years ago!) when a woman losing 120 pounds was worthy of a blurb on a magazine cover? I bet that sort of weight loss barely makes the back page of community newspapers nowadays.