Palin's 'going rogue,' McCain aide says

[markalot]

Palin's 'going rogue,' McCain aide says

* Story Highlights
* Sources say there is brewing tension between McCain aides and Palin
* Palin aide says she is trying to take control of her message
* "She is a diva. She takes no advice from anyone," says a McCain adviser

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/POLITICS/10/25/palin.tension/art.palin.saturday.ap.jpg

From John King, Peter Hamby and Dana Bash
CNN

ALBUQUERQUE, New Mexico (CNN) -- With 10 days until Election Day, long-brewing tensions between GOP vice presidential candidate Gov. Sarah Palin and key aides to Sen. John McCain have become so intense, they are spilling out in public, sources say.

Several McCain advisers have suggested to CNN that they have become increasingly frustrated with what one aide described as Palin "going rogue."

A Palin associate, however, said the candidate is simply trying to "bust free" of what she believes was a damaging and mismanaged roll-out.

McCain sources say Palin has gone off-message several times, and they privately wonder whether the incidents were deliberate. They cited an instance in which she labeled robocalls -- recorded messages often used to attack a candidate's opponent -- "irritating" even as the campaign defended their use. Also, they pointed to her telling reporters she disagreed with the campaign's decision to pull out of Michigan.

A second McCain source says she appears to be looking out for herself more than the McCain campaign.

"She is a diva. She takes no advice from anyone," said this McCain adviser. "She does not have any relationships of trust with any of us, her family or anyone else.

"Also, she is playing for her own future and sees herself as the next leader of the party. Remember: Divas trust only unto themselves, as they see themselves as the beginning and end of all wisdom."

A Palin associate defended her, saying that she is "not good at process questions" and that her comments on Michigan and the robocalls were answers to process questions.

But this Palin source acknowledged that Palin is trying to take more control of her message, pointing to last week's impromptu news conference on a Colorado tarmac.

Tracey Schmitt, Palin's press secretary, was urgently called over after Palin wandered over to the press and started talking. Schmitt tried several times to end the unscheduled session.

"We acknowledge that perhaps she should have been out there doing more," a different Palin adviser recently said, arguing that "it's not fair to judge her off one or two sound bites" from the network interviews.

The Politico reported Saturday on Palin's frustration, specifically with McCain advisers Nicolle Wallace and Steve Schmidt. They helped decide to limit Palin's initial press contact to high-profile interviews with Charlie Gibson of ABC and Katie Couric of CBS, which all McCain sources admit were highly damaging.

In response, Wallace e-mailed CNN the same quote she gave the Politico: "If people want to throw me under the bus, my personal belief is that the most honorable thing to do is to lie there."

But two sources, one Palin associate and one McCain adviser, defended the decision to keep her press interaction limited after she was picked, both saying flatly that she was not ready and that the missteps could have been a lot worse.

They insisted that she needed time to be briefed on national and international issues and on McCain's record.

Schmitt came to the back of the plane Saturday to deliver a statement to traveling reporters: "Unnamed sources with their own agenda will say what they want, but from Gov. Palin down, we have one agenda, and that's to win on Election Day."

Yet another senior McCain adviser lamented the public recriminations.

"This is what happens with a campaign that's behind; it brings out the worst in people, finger-pointing and scapegoating," this senior adviser said.

This adviser also decried the double standard, noting that Democratic nominee Sen. Barack Obama's running mate, Sen. Joe Biden, has gone off the reservation as well, most recently by telling donors at a fundraiser that America's enemies will try to "test" Obama.

Tensions like those within the McCain-Palin campaign are not unusual; vice presidential candidates also have a history of butting heads with the top of the ticket.

John Edwards and his inner circle repeatedly questioned Sen. John Kerry's strategy in 2004, and Kerry loyalists repeatedly aired in public their view that Edwards would not play the traditional attack dog role with relish because he wanted to protect his future political interests.

Even in a winning campaign like Bill Clinton's, some of Al Gore's aides in 1992 and again in 1996 questioned how Gore was being scheduled for campaign events.

Jack Kemp's aides distrusted the Bob Dole camp and vice versa, and Dan Quayle loyalists had a list of gripes remarkably similar to those now being aired by Gov. Palin's aides.

With the presidential race in its final days and polls suggesting that McCain's chances of pulling out a win are growing slim, Palin may be looking after her own future.

"She's no longer playing for 2008; she's playing 2012," Democratic pollster Peter Hart said. "And the difficulty is, when she went on 'Saturday Night Live,' she became a reinforcement of her caricature. She never allowed herself to be vetted, and at the end of the day, voters turned against her both in terms of qualifications and personally."

CNN's Ed Hornick contributed to this report.


Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/25/palin.tension/index.html

[justa bill]

there's enough drama in this (these) election(s). why do people have to go digging for new drama. :rolleyes:

[skidminix]

What else can you expect from a maverick?

[silentpaul]

* Sources say there is brewing tension between McCain aides and Palin

Bada bing

What else can you expect from a maverick?

Bada boom

[the happy prole]

It's tough when the campaign isn't going well. Beyond all the personal pressures of keeping a team together when things are hitting the fan, there's a distinct difference in what they want out of this campaign.

McCain's in a position where he's old, this is the last rung of the ladder for him anyway, and he has his Senate seat to fall back on. Palin has to think more longterm. The VP nod was great pub for her, and a marginal loss where she still looks good will be a career building. A bad loss where she ends up affiliated with McCain would be a step back.

And also, this is just a symptom of the schism in the Republican party. Palin represents the right wing faction that has never really liked McCain much and that McCain has never liked either. You can see he's just getting sick and tired of compromising-- whether that means helping Palin and the far right or taking potshots at Obama. You get the feeling he's at the point where he's like "Fuck it. If I'm going down, I'm going down doing what I believe in."

The party doesn't have a unified message because it's split in two. To the extent they have some talking points they are compromises between sides, and no one feels like compromising anymore since it looks to be a doomed effort anyway.

Personally, I would love to see McCain go back to the 2000 version. He might get across a few things that resonate with voters and help the GOP going forward. They need to ditch the Rush-type neocons and they just can't shake them. He may not be able to salvage this elections, but he could still save his party.

[Artpunchehorse]

Wish she was going comando:)

[Mr. Mystery]

Unless I heard the quote wrong, wasn't Biden's full comment about Obama being tested that one would find he has a "spine of steel"? I didn't hear the comment first hand, but not exactly undercutting if that's what it was.

[akip]

Personally, I would love to see McCain go back to the 2000 version. He might get across a few things that resonate with voters and help the GOP going forward. They need to ditch the Rush-type neocons and they just can't shake them. He may not be able to salvage this elections, but he could still save his party.

i dunno. maybe the party really needs to see this affiliation crash and burn. there's still a lot of denial out there, excuses and counter-narratives.

anyway, it'll take someone other than mccain---somebody fresh and appealing. mccain has the same curse as bob dole. they were heroes, but it's also made them bitter. even though people like their stories in the abstract, they don't like the resulting dark side of their personalities.

mccain should've won instead of bush in 2000. i'd really love to know how things would've played out in that scenario. but that's his tragedy, and probably ours.

[akip]

there's enough drama in this (these) election(s). why do people have to go digging for new drama. :rolleyes:

'cause the new drama will continue on...i think she'll still be a populist force. there are a lot of people out there who see her as a messenger from jesus and they aren't going away.

[deetums]

http://www.wcvw.org/fark/spaceballs-suck2blow.jpg

"She's gone from suck to blow!"

[justa bill]

'cause the new drama will continue on...i think she'll still be a populist force. there are a lot of people out there who see her as a messenger from jesus and they aren't going away.

wow. really. i didn't know anyone was saying that. but i don't watch this stuff 24/7.

i am still amazed at how 'tolerant, liberal' people have treated her. i just wonder if some of the shocking sexism displayed (even around here) would be received if it was racism that was thoughtlessly displayed instead of sexism. or if her religion would be mocked so much if it was another religion. they're all pretty unrealistic... but they're not all ridiculed.

i think liberal standards about acceptance have been completely forgotten and now ring pretty hollow. conservatives will always be able to say, "remember how you threated Palin."

i'm friends with a number of republicans and work with a lot more of them. i haven't heard ANY thing said about Obama's race, but hardly a day has gone by without my democrat friends making a typically-quite-disgusting joke about Palin, and those jokes all have one thing in common: the fact that Palin is a woman. some throw in her religion as well. it's really sad.

:shrug:

[Breeze]

i'm friends with a number of republicans and work with a lot more of them. i haven't heard ANY thing said about Obama's race, but hardly a day has gone by without my democrat friends making a typically-quite-disgusting joke about Palin, and those jokes all have one thing in common: the fact that Palin is a woman. some throw in her religion as well. it's really sad.


On the other hand, the majority of the disparaging remarks I personally hear about Palin have to do with her unfamiliarity with the office she seeks, her incoherence in interviews, her glancing relationship with reality, her anti-intellectualism, and her divisive nature.

Any and all of those are reason enough to question her fitness for office; she's stunningly unprepared for the position--in these times, in particular--regardless of her gender, religion, family, and so on.

ETA:

As for the "liberal standards of acceptance," whose standards are they? The liberals' or the ones to which you hold liberals? Are there such standards for other points on the political continuum--e.g., the "big tent" of the GOP?

[miami2112]

i'm friends with a number of republicans and work with a lot more of them. i haven't heard ANY thing said about Obama's race, but hardly a day has gone by without my democrat friends making a typically-quite-disgusting joke about Palin, and those jokes all have one thing in common: the fact that Palin is a woman. some throw in her religion as well. it's really sad.

:shrug:

sounds quite similar to the anti-hillary crap i'd heard all through her run up to and through the primaries.

*the following is not directed to/at justa, just a thought i had*

i'd be curious if those who feel that palin is being attacked felt the same for hillary.

[Mr. Mystery]

those jokes all have one thing in common: the fact that Palin is a woman. some throw in her religion as well. it's really sad.
:shrug:

While I don't condone any actual sexism, I think it's fair to point out that Palin's gender has been used as a selling point by her own supporters and staff--she's been pitched as the Hillary-replacement, been described as a "feminist", and a favorable Fox News piece about her was titled "An American Woman." When gender is used in the platform, its use will be part of the criticism.
Same goes for religion. Despite the supposedly secular nature of our government and political process, a candidate who does not put their Christianity front and center has a distinct political disadvantage. Palin is no exception. When religious views are part of the selling points, they become part of the debate.

[justa bill]

i'd be curious if those who feel that palin is being attacked felt the same for hillary.

i can't imagine anyone--even that one crazy far-right hater that used to post around here--starting a thread about things he would rather do than (screw) hillary. well, that guy... maybe he did. but statements like that make it as if that is the whole reason for a woman's existence. ridiculous.

and no, Breeze, i've lived in an urban, predominantly african-american neighborhood for the last eight years, so i know A LOT more democrats than republicans, and every joke i have heard uses Palin's sex as either the main focus or the final punch in the joke.

i just think it's doing everyone--especially future female national candidates--a disservice. especially if that candidate has young children.

[akip]

palin was quite disagreeable in her "palling around with terrorists" phase. yet she seemed likably self-deprecating on SNL. the truth of her is probably in between. i'd like to see her distance herself from the jesus freaks---in some respects it might actually be better if she were more calculating and mercenary and less of a true zealot. but i am no fan of non-evangelical populism either---on the left OR the right. i think people who aspire to public office ought to know more than joe the plumber, a hockey mom, or a consumer rights advocate---or they should at least have the ability to absorb and synthesize information rapidly like clinton or obama, or assemble some team of very smart pragmatists to do it for them, like reagan.

bottom line, i'm not sure what palin's real abilities are 'cause they're so undeveloped. what does come through loud and clear is she is very confident of herself and very ambitious. if her skill set could catch up, she'd be formidable. but the gap seems to be the grand canyon right now.

[frizgolf]

wow. really. i didn't know anyone was saying that. but i don't watch this stuff 24/7.

i am still amazed at how 'tolerant, liberal' people have treated her. i just wonder if some of the shocking sexism displayed (even around here) would be received if it was racism that was thoughtlessly displayed instead of sexism. or if her religion would be mocked so much if it was another religion. they're all pretty unrealistic... but they're not all ridiculed.

i think liberal standards about acceptance have been completely forgotten and now ring pretty hollow. conservatives will always be able to say, "remember how you threated Palin."

i'm friends with a number of republicans and work with a lot more of them. i haven't heard ANY thing said about Obama's race, but hardly a day has gone by without my democrat friends making a typically-quite-disgusting joke about Palin, and those jokes all have one thing in common: the fact that Palin is a woman. some throw in her religion as well. it's really sad.

:shrug:

The Messenger From Jesus angle is a new one on me. Wouldn't shock me, though.
I agree with you about acceptance standards, at the very least from reading comments here on this board. I've been a member now for four years, and I really like to think I've taken from it a more compassionate outlook toward my fellow human beings. But this election has shocked me in how that message can be lost when political ideology is involved. It reminds me of the reverse of the stereotype of the Catholic religion: sin for six days and repent on Sunday, except here we are inclusive and accepting for three and a half years until the election cycle, where anyone who dares not agree with the liberal talking poits seems to become a gun-toting religious right-wing nut case who bombs abortion clinics.
My head is spinning. Can we have the doggone election already and get back to warm hugs?

[juggles]

palin was quite disagreeable in her "palling around with terrorists" phase. yet she seemed likably self-deprecating on SNL. the truth of her is probably in between. i'd like to see her distance herself from the jesus freaks---in some respects it might actually be better if she were more calculating and mercenary and less of a true zealot. but i am no fan of non-evangelical populism either---on the left OR the right. i think people who aspire to public office ought to know more than joe the plumber, a hockey mom, or a consumer rights advocate---or they should at least have the ability to absorb and synthesize information rapidly like clinton or obama, or assemble some team of very smart pragmatists to do it for them, like reagan.

bottom line, i'm not sure what palin's real abilities are 'cause they're so undeveloped. what does come through loud and clear is she is very confident of herself and very ambitious. if her skill set could catch up, she'd be formidable. but the gap seems to be the grand canyon right now.

To me, she's been disagreeable from her unveiling at the RNC.

The fact that she was willing to throw herself into the fire so unprepared speaks very poorly of her abilities. She says that when McCain asked her, she "didn't blink." That shows an incredible lack of judgment to me. She should have blinked. She should have asked a lot of questions and prepared herself for the media onslaught that was inevitable and predicable. "Confident and ambitious" look a lot like arrogant and foolish if there's no substance behind it. The result is the kinds of scandals, lies and abuses of power that appear to be the real hallmark of her tenure in Alaskan politics. Caesar was confident and ambitious too. Look where it got him.

[akip]

The Messenger From Jesus angle is a new one on me. Wouldn't shock me, though.


though a recent pew poll showed her strong support among evangelical voters going down a tad (some younger evangelicals are attracted to obama's eco-friendly brand of faith) the dobson crew seems squarely behind her. and she's campaigning with them now, no doubt with her political future in mind:

palin says election result rests in god's hands (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gOk9t_aHv9C5h0pxR6KbVY11gUlQD93VMJL81)

By ERIC GORSKI – 10/23/2008

DENVER (AP) — Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin describes herself as a "hard-core pro-lifer" and expresses confidence that in spite of disheartening polls, "putting this in God's hands, that the right thing for America will be done at the end of the day on Nov. 4."

In an interview with evangelical leader James Dobson that aired Wednesday, Palin said she thought Republican presidential candidate John McCain would implement the GOP platform if elected — "I do, from the bottom of my heart" — but McCain doesn't support the platform on three issues important to evangelicals: abortion, gay marriage and embryonic stem cell research.

The platform calls for a constitutional ban on gay marriage, an issue McCain says should be left to individual states. Similarly, the platform seeks a constitutional ban on all abortions; again, McCain supports allowing states to decide the question. McCain supports research using embryonic stem cells, which the platform opposes.

Palin called it a "strong platform" and told Dobson, "They are there, they are solid, we stand on them and, again, I believe that it is the right agenda for the country at this time."

The Alaska governor talked by phone with Dobson for about 20 minutes Monday while she was in Colorado campaigning. Dobson's Focus on the Family radio program aired the interview Wednesday.

Dobson asked whether Palin was discouraged by polls showing the GOP ticket behind.

"To me, it motivates us, makes us work that much harder," Palin said. "And it also strengthens my faith, because I'm going to know, at the end of the day, putting this in God's hands, that the right thing for America will be done at the end of the day on Nov. 4. So I'm not discouraged at all."

Palin has not focused on her faith on the campaign trail, but it clearly has energized evangelical leaders like Dobson, whose radio show reaches an estimated 1.5 million Americans daily.

Dobson has come around to supporting the McCain-Palin ticket after previously saying he could not in good conscience vote for McCain. He endorsed former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee late in the primaries.

Palin thanked Dobson and supporters for their prayers and — when Dobson inquired about the importance of faith in her life — said: "It is my foundation, yes, my Christian faith is."

She also used terms like "prayer warrior" and "intercession" — words that might be unknown to the average listener but are common vocabulary in Pentecostal Christianity. Palin spent 20 years in a Pentecostal Assemblies of God Church, but she usually refers to her faith generically as Christian, not even evangelical.

"It is that intercession that is so needed and so greatly appreciated," Palin told Dobson. "And I can feel it too, Dr. Dobson. I can feel the power of prayer, and that strength that is provided through our prayer warriors across this nation."

She continued: "When we hear along the rope lines that people are interceding for us and praying for us, it's our reminder to do the same, to put this all in God's hands, to seek his perfect will for this nation, and to of course seek his wisdom and guidance in putting this nation back on the right track."

Describing herself as a "hard-core pro-lifer," Palin said the birth of a son with Down syndrome was "this opportunity for me to really be walking the walk and not just talking the talk. There's purpose in this also and for a greater good to be met there."

Palin said the campaign had to have faith that its message will be heard "minus the filter of the mainstream media."

"That filter has to be erased," she said. "So we have to have faith in the wisdom of the people that they'll understand what our message is. But even bigger that then, I have to have that faith that God is going to help us get that message out there."

[Shlep]

WOXY NEWS BREAK: ELECTION 2008

THIS JUST IN: The developing story behind rumors that Sarah Palin may be "going rogue" took an abrupt and surprising turn earlier today when informed sources close to WOXY News revealed that the entire incident now seems to have been the result of a nothing more than a simple typographical error.

According to Steve Shmuckatelli, a senior member of Palins' Media Relations team who agreed to speak with WOXY News on condition of anonymity, the entire incident was sparked by...ooooh, shit...look, just forget you saw that first part...don't look back, okay? Anyway, an anonymous source close to the Palin campaign indicated that the origin of this latest incident was traced back to e-mail conversation between two other staffers shortly before her recent shopping trip to Neiman Marcus became public knowledge.

One of the folks on Palins' team e-mailed another regarding questions about her choice of makeup and clothes, and at some point in the e-mail, the sender indicated that Palins' image consultant convinced her that she should eschew the use of flatter, 'earthy' tones and instead try 'going rouge' with her makeup. Apparently, it was hoped that doing so would cause Palin to project a more glamorous, upscale image more appealing to voters than the folksy, homespun one previously associated with her.


ALBUQUERQUE, New Mexico (CNN) -- With 10 days until Election Day, long-brewing tensions between GOP vice presidential candidate Gov. Sarah Palin and key aides to Sen. John McCain have become so intense, they are spilling out in public, sources say.

"Long-brewing"? It hasn't been two full months since she was nominated to fill the #2 spot on the GOP ticket.

A Palin associate, however, said the candidate is simply trying to "bust free" of what she believes was a damaging and mismanaged roll-out.

First, it was strident liberals, then a smattering of conservative media flacks, and then a growing number of GOP heavyweights criticizing the way Palin was added to the McCain campaign. Now...Sarah Palin is criticizing how Sarah Palin was foisted upon the voting public.

Just when it seemed it couldn't get much worse...

[akip]

apparently karl rove said on fox news sunday that the feuding in the mccain camp is a "sad sight to see," and attributed it to undisciplined, disloyal campaign workers.

[twentyshots]

apparently karl rove said on fox news sunday that the feuding in the mccain camp is a "sad sight to see," and attributed it to undisciplined, disloyal campaign workers.

surprised he even commented on it.

[akip]

surprised he even commented on it.

he's busy protecting his rep as well. everyone is analyzing what's gone wrong, though mainly blaming the economic collapse, without which, they say, mccain would've had a fighting chance.

[REMgirl]

Rove ought to be interviewed in a prison cell, wearing an orange jumpsuit. I can't believe anyone even cares what he thinks about anything now. Bush looks pathetic; no lame duck was ever lamer than he is, and everything Rove and Cheney touched has turned to shit.

It's grimly satisfying to watch the McCain/Palin debacle play itself out. They're all like a pack of dogs, snapping and snarling at each other inside the campaign circle. Today when Tom Brokaw told McCain that he was trailing as much as fourteen points in some polls, McCain told him that he didn't accept those poll numbers. He mentioned Zogby polls, and said they only had him three points back. Well, I don't even think that's right. I think Zogby had him down this week by ten or so. The man is in denial.

[Predot listener]

"That filter has to be erased," she said. "So we have to have faith in the wisdom of the people that they'll understand what our message is. But even bigger that then, I have to have that faith that God is going to help us get that message out there."

There's about an ocean's worth of chasm between saying one has faith that God will help get her get a message out and claiming one is a messenger from God.

[akip]

There's about an ocean's worth of chasm between saying one has faith that God will help get her get a message out and claiming one is a messenger from God.

you're twisting what i said. i said evangelicals believe she's a messenger from jesus. actually, what i should've said is evangelicals believe she's a warrior for jesus. that's more accurate.

[akip]

actually, what's closer is that they---evangelicals and palin---share the belief that they are all the carriers of God's word. that's what "evangelical" means---the gospel, the good news. any evangelical is supposed to spread the word---and not only within the personal realm, but in the activist political sphere as well. the terms that palin uses in the dobson interview are politically loaded.

[justa bill]

actually, what's closer is that they---evangelicals and palin---share the belief that they are all the carriers of God's word. .

see i guess that's the thing: doesn't every religion believe that?

i think i'd be disappointed in a religion that said, 'well, you know, we just kinda made some stuff up. we don't really believe it. and you wouldn't want to know about it anyway...' at that point you don't have a religion, you have the Free Masons or something. :p

[classicgrrl]

see i guess that's the thing: doesn't every religion believe that?

i think i'd be disappointed in a religion that said, 'well, you know, we just kinda made some stuff up. we don't really believe it. and you wouldn't want to know about it anyway...' at that point you don't have a religion, you have the Free Masons or something. :p

no. every religion does not believe that. Society of of Friends does not beleive they carry the word of God. they carry man's ntrepretation of God.

also, they do not agree with evanglism which is why there are not too many of them any more. However, evanglism in a Quaker's eyes is manipulation and is wrong.

Quaker = thinking man's religion

[silentpaul]

Quaker = thinking man's religion

Agreed. My good friend's a Quaker, and she's one of the smartest, most well-read people I know.

As with anything, there are branches of Quakers. They run the full spectrum of religiosity, too.

[justa bill]

no. every religion does not believe that. Society of of Friends does not beleive they carry the word of God. they carry man's ntrepretation of God.

also, they do not agree with evanglism which is why there are not too many of them any more. However, evanglism in a Quaker's eyes is manipulation and is wrong.

Quaker = thinking man's religion

Quaker = a religion? it's a branch or a sect or a denomination of christianity, right. most every other 'belief' believes all others are wrong of course... :rolleyes:

quakers are still "thinking" there's a god, aren't they?

i always thought budism was the thinking "man's" religion, though... or maybe it's scientology. i mean it's got science right in its name.

[akip]

see i guess that's the thing: doesn't every religion believe that?

i think i'd be disappointed in a religion that said, 'well, you know, we just kinda made some stuff up. we don't really believe it. and you wouldn't want to know about it anyway...' at that point you don't have a religion, you have the Free Masons or something. :p

though theoretically all christians are supposed to "witness," mainstream sects generally ignore all that. for evangelicals, it's central. but we all know what i'm talking about here---jerry falwell, pat robertson, ralph reed, gary bauer, james dobson, etc. the activist evangelical movement without which george w. bush would never had been elected president.

the christian coalition (http://www.cc.org/)

focus on the family (http://www.focusvoter.com/)

american values (gary bauer) (http://www.amvalues.org/about.php)

once this election is over, palin isn't stuck with mccain anymore. she can move over to the wing of the party where her heart is and where she's almost unanimously adored.

[Predot listener]

you're twisting what i said. i said evangelicals believe she's a messenger from jesus. actually, what i should've said is evangelicals believe she's a warrior for jesus. that's more accurate.

Then what was the point of the bold-faced text?

If you have actual examples of evangelicals claiming she's a messenger from Jesus, slap some links on me. But I fail to see how what you provided relates in any way to the previous claim.

[akip]

Then what was the point of the bold-faced text?

If you have actual examples of evangelicals claiming she's a messenger from Jesus, slap some links on me. But I fail to see how what you provided relates in any way to the previous claim.

go read post #27 again. i'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseum. and read up on the evangelical political movement while you're at it. but you're arguing against what you already know.

[Predot listener]

go read post #27 again. i'm not going to repeat myself ad nauseum. and read up on the evangelical political movement while you're at it. but you're arguing against what you already know.

You claimed evangelicals consider her a "messenger from Jesus" (Despite the fact Palin herself doesn't consider herself evangelical).

When Friz said he hadn't heard that, you pointed to an interview with Dobson where she uses Christian-friendly terms and specifically boldfaced a quotation that, as I argued, was could not reasonably be interpreted as Palin herself being a messenger of Jesus.

Then you accused me of "twisting your words."

So I repeat, what was the point of the boldfaced text?

[Breeze]

You claimed evangelicals consider her a "messenger from Jesus" (Despite the fact Palin herself doesn't consider herself evangelical).

This guy (http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=YB007F5G&GroupID=2A004N9G)seems to think she is just that: "Sarah is that standard God has raised up to stop the flood. She has the anointing."

[classicgrrl]

Quaker = a religion? it's a branch or a sect or a denomination of christianity, right. most every other 'belief' believes all others are wrong of course... :rolleyes:

quakers are still "thinking" there's a god, aren't they?

i always thought budism was the thinking "man's" religion, though... or maybe it's scientology. i mean it's got science right in its name.

Quaker is a religion. Properly called Society of Friends and it is a sect of Christianity. the more left leanings of the second oldest protestant sect in the country state that there is not a wrong religion as long as it doesn't harm the believer and believes in one god.

and akip - no not all sects of christianity believe in witnessing. Quakers historically do not. they believe that actions serve as a true witness - not words.

it's a pretty left leaning sect and frankly the only one I've found I can stomach.

[Predot listener]

This guy (http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=YB007F5G&GroupID=2A004N9G)seems to think she is just that: "Sarah is that standard God has raised up to stop the flood. She has the anointing."

I'm not questioning the idea there are some who are doing that. I simply contested the idea that Palin's quotes to Dobson's, particularly the boldfaced portion, were in any way evidence of that, and wondered what relevance they have to akip's statement. To this point, that question hasn't been answered.

[frizgolf]

I'm not questioning the idea there are some who are doing that. I simply contested the idea that Palin's quotes to Dobson's, particularly the boldfaced portion, were in any way evidence of that, and wondered what relevance they have to akip's statement. To this point, that question hasn't been answered.

As for the part where Palin was quoted, I really don't see anything leaders in this country haven't been doing since the inception of the Republic.

[justa bill]

Quaker is a religion. Properly called Society of Friends and it is a sect of Christianity. the more left leanings of the second oldest protestant sect in the country state that there is not a wrong religion as long as it doesn't harm the believer and believes in one god.

i don't know that i would call The Church of Christ, Sunni-ism (probably not a word), or any other sect a "religion"... they're denominations of a religion. but whatever...

i've known two Quakers over the years, and they're just as goofy as any of the other religious people i've known... i went to three parties once at a friend-of-a-friend's house before i found out the whole crowd went to Crossroads. when one does a shot then says 'see ya in church tomorrow'... whoa... :\

[akip]

i think you guys are being deliberately dense. i'm not going to waste my time digging up info that's all out there. palin is an evangelical christian; her platform is their platform (supreme court majority to overturn roe v. wade, creationism taught in science class if locally desired, defense of prayer in school, faith-based initiatives, the laws of the nation all in conformity to god's law, as well as all the populist moves that go hand-n-hand, like repealing affirmative action, etc.)---she is appealing to evangelicals by speaking in the terms that all evangelicals understand, not only in the last highlighted lines, but throughout the interview with dobson, which i could've highlighted in its entirety, it's so packed with their rhetoric. evangelicals are all messengers of god's word; they are entreated to vote in accordance with the tenants of their faith. mccain picked her to energize the base---the evangelicals being the most critical component of that base 'cause when they believe someone is one of their own they will get on church buses and vote in huge numbers. it is very obvious the majority, many of which show up in those huge crowds (10,000 for her speeches v. 1,000 for mccain's) believe she is quite sincere, and that, yes, as an evangelical, she is as much a messenger for jesus as they are. though fitz seems to think they're just showing up 'cause they think she's a babe.:p

it's possible that palin is purely cynical and just doing what all politicians do, which is talk one line to dobson and talk another to charlie gibson, where she has to appeal to swing voters. but since she's polling badly with swing voters, my guess is, post-election, she's going back to her roots. while her form of evangelism is western, not southern, which means she's more libertarian about gays (though she states clearly in her speeches that she believes in the defense of marriage act), she is an evangelical christian, albeit alaska-style. as she's telling dobson, "i don't just talk the talk; i walk the walk."

[frizgolf]

though fitz seems to think they're just showing up 'cause they think she's a babe.:p


What? There's another reason to show up? :p

[Duemellon]

actually, what's closer is that they---evangelicals and palin---share the belief that they are all the carriers of God's word. ]see i guess that's the thing: doesn't every religion believe that?Simple answer for JBill:No. You're wrong.most every other 'belief' believes all others are wrong of course... :rolleyes:To say "most" is an exaggeration. To say "believes all others are wrong" is an oversimplification too.

Now, it seems you're one to categorize religions with their major headings. Such as any protestant or Catholic denomination is just "Christian" like any other variation. I'll argue the similarities to other religions don't end there & if you want to talk about "derivities" you need to combine Christianity & Judaism. And, of course, you can't do that without including their stepbrother: Islam.

So they're all Abrahamic-based faiths (I call them Abrahamic faiths because, well, up to that point they agree on every single aspect of their religions). Out of the Abrahamic ones, only 2 of the 3 are evangelical. Jews aren't trying to convert anyone but other Jews if at all.

So, as for the amount of worshippers of Abrahamic faiths, you have a huge amount of the population, & combined, they beat all other faiths individually.

There are many more religions than the Abrahamic ones & their derivatives. Most of those are not "are way or the highway" minded. Many of those non-Abrahamic faiths don't care if you even practiced more than one! They may defend their religions when feeling threatened but they only feel threatened by the evangelical ones.

[classicgrrl]

i don't know that i would call The Church of Christ, Sunni-ism (probably not a word), or any other sect a "religion"... they're denominations of a religion. but whatever...

i've known two Quakers over the years, and they're just as goofy as any of the other religious people i've known... i went to three parties once at a friend-of-a-friend's house before i found out the whole crowd went to Crossroads. when one does a shot then says 'see ya in church tomorrow'... whoa... :\

Crossroads is decidedly NOT Quaker.

and you know three Quakers now and I'm probably goofy too so there ya go.

Quakers were once killed for their goofiness. my point is that generalizations are often incorrect.

[Duemellon]

my point is that generalizations are often incorrect.What's the likelidhood that those generalizations you just stereotyped are in fact correct?

[Predot listener]

i think you guys are being deliberately dense. i'm not going to waste my time digging up info that's all out there. palin is an evangelical christian; her platform is their platform (supreme court majority to overturn roe v. wade, creationism taught in science class if locally desired, defense of prayer in school, faith-based initiatives, the laws of the nation all in conformity to god's law, as well as all the populist moves that go hand-n-hand, like repealing affirmative action, etc.)---she is appealing to evangelicals by speaking in the terms that all evangelicals understand, not only in the last highlighted lines, but throughout the interview with dobson, which i could've highlighted in its entirety, it's so packed with their rhetoric. evangelicals are all messengers of god's word; they are entreated to vote in accordance with the tenants of their faith. mccain picked her to energize the base---the evangelicals being the most critical component of that base 'cause when they believe someone is one of their own they will get on church buses and vote in huge numbers. it is very obvious the majority, many of which show up in those huge crowds (10,000 for her speeches v. 1,000 for mccain's) believe she is quite sincere, and that, yes, as an evangelical, she is as much a messenger for jesus as they are. though fitz seems to think they're just showing up 'cause they think she's a babe.:p

it's possible that palin is purely cynical and just doing what all politicians do, which is talk one line to dobson and talk another to charlie gibson, where she has to appeal to swing voters. but since she's polling badly with swing voters, my guess is, post-election, she's going back to her roots. while her form of evangelism is western, not southern, which means she's more libertarian about gays (though she states clearly in her speeches that she believes in the defense of marriage act), she is an evangelical christian, albeit alaska-style. as she's telling dobson, "i don't just talk the talk; i walk the walk."


Well, if Palin doesn't consider herself an evangelical, I'm not really interested how you define her. And frankly, I couldn't care less either way. She's a devout Christian, saying stuff devout Christians say.

The remarks to Dobson no different than thousands of Chrsitians, evangelicals, mainline Protestants and more than a few Catholics, say every day. They ask for God's help in every aspect of their life, from the meaningless to the meaningful to the inappropriate. "Dear Lord, please help me a) Get this job for my family, b) hit this home run, c) bag that hot 19-year-old temp in accounting without my wife finding out." The fact Palin offers similar remarks about getting the Palinized version of the McCain message out is neither surprising nor particularly meaningful. And the fact that she uses phrases and language that appeals to evangelicals when speaking to Dobson is no more revelatory or significant than Obama tailoring different messages to the UAW and AARP.

There are at least three very simple, very real reasons for people of all ideaologies to reject Palin:

her work and educational history do not offer any reason to believe she's cut out for the job;

she shows very little knowledge of the issues at hand or the responsibilties of the job she's seeking;

she doesn't seem particularly curious about finding out.

For folks of a liberal bent (myself included), you can throw in that the policies she advocates are in direct contrast to what you and I think are good for this country.

Focusing on her faith (the reasons behind her terrible policy positions) is not particularly helpful, and is more likely detrimental to the cause.

[Buzzstein]

I think justa bill and predot are goofy. :p :D

[Arkansas]

Well, if Palin doesn't consider herself an evangelical, I'm not really interested how you define her. And frankly, I couldn't care less either way. She's a devout Christian, saying stuff devout Christians say.

The remarks to Dobson no different than thousands of Chrsitians, evangelicals, mainline Protestants and more than a few Catholics, say every day. They ask for God's help in every aspect of their life, from the meaningless to the meaningful to the inappropriate. "Dear Lord, please help me a) Get this job for my family, b) hit this home run, c) bag that hot 19-year-old temp in accounting without my wife finding out." The fact Palin offers similar remarks about getting the Palinized version of the McCain message out is neither surprising nor particularly meaningful. And the fact that she uses phrases and language that appeals to evangelicals when speaking to Dobson is no more revelatory or significant than Obama tailoring different messages to the UAW and AARP.

There are at least three very simple, very real reasons for people of all ideaologies to reject Palin:

her work and educational history do not offer any reason to believe she's cut out for the job;

she shows very little knowledge of the issues at hand or the responsibilties of the job she's seeking;

she doesn't seem particularly curious about finding out.

For folks of a liberal bent (myself included), you can throw in that the policies she advocates are in direct contrast to what you and I think are good for this country.

Focusing on her faith (the reasons behind her terrible policy positions) is not particularly helpful, and is more likely detrimental to the cause.

Thanks for saving me some time. I couldn't agree more with everything you said. I often ask myself why people get sidetracked with these arguments that are useless and divisive. I haven't answered myself yet. Pick your battles folks. Better yet, pick the battles that are easy to win. You can't win an argument concerning ones personal beliefs. The basis of evangelical faith makes it impossible to argue with. The only time these people have a paradigm shift is when it occurs in their own time, not as a result of criticizing them. Everyone thinks that their beliefs are right for their particular habitat. I think that our government should be agnostic(which is what I think Obama is deep down). I wish that I could do something to affect that. There is nothing different between me wanting that and Palin wanting what she wants.

[Predot listener]

I think justa bill and predot are goofy. :p :D

See, that I can't argue.

[the happy prole]

Isn't the best reason for voting against Palin because you don't agree with anything she stands for?

And considering how central her faith is to her known policy stances, it's somewhat relevant. I mean, Palin hasn't said who she'd appoint as Supreme Court justices, but I think we have a pretty good idea.

The difference between me and Palin is I'm not running for President and making a bunch of rules that affect everyone in the nation.

On a personal level, she can believe whatever she wants however she wants. And I get to not vote for her because I think she's a crackpot and I don't want to live in her world even if she likes it.

[Arkansas]

Isn't the best reason for voting against Palin because you don't agree with anything she stands for?

And considering how central her faith is to her known policy stances, it's somewhat relevant. I mean, Palin hasn't said who she'd appoint as Supreme Court justices, but I think we have a pretty good idea.

The difference between me and Palin is I'm not running for President and making a bunch of rules that affect everyone in the nation.

On a personal level, she can believe whatever she wants however she wants. And I get to not vote for her because I think she's a crackpot and I don't want to live in her world even if she likes it.

Well, yeah. I hate almost everything she stands for and I reaaalllllly hope she doesn't obtain any more power than what she has already.
I'm just trying to say that it really isn't productive to argue for or against a canidate based on their religious beliefs. All that seems to accomplish is polarizing people. Personal belief is relevant in that it does show what kind of policies a canidate will support.
Yeah, I'm not running for office either but if I were my platform would not include any mention of any faith of any kind. I want politicians to operate on fact and a well versed knowledge of history. It completly astounds me that canidates are taken seriously who say, "it's gods will" for a b or c to happen. To me that says they will basically just sit back and let "god" control the goings on of the government. No matter how fucked things are they can just say, "welp, guess it's what god wanted". WTF?

[Duemellon]

I'm just trying to say that it really isn't productive to argue for or against a canidate based on their religious beliefs.Agreed.

...but just like minority status, family, or family in the services... if you bring them/it into your campaign as a reason to vote for you then you made it fair game.

Now, if you make it clear you are steered by that particular thing you're highlighting then it becomes paramount to vote based on it. U'kno? Like, if you said you're a minority, inject it into the conversation, & then start saying how you're specifically going to do things for that minority, you force others to vote based on that.

Just as if you say you're going to do God's will when you're in a position of power. Sorry, I now have to vote based on what I believe your god wills you to do.

[the happy prole]

No, I guess I see Arkansas' point now.

Palin injects her religion into her public statements so it can be said to be fair game for us to criticize her. But what does it accomplish?

I mean, people who vote for Palin simply because she is Christian are not going to change their mind. And Palin is not suddenly going to renounce Christianity.

It's a waste of time.

[markalot]

Oh wait,

I think they meant Palin was going rouge.

http://nicedeb.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/palin-in-the-car.jpg

My bad.

Nevermind.

[Arkansas]

Good one Mark. How long did it take you to find that picture that perfectly illustrated your joke?

[Duemellon]

No, I guess I see Arkansas' point now.

Palin injects her religion into her public statements so it can be said to be fair game for us to criticize her. But what does it accomplish?

I mean, people who vote for Palin simply because she is Christian are not going to change their mind. And Palin is not suddenly going to renounce Christianity.

It's a waste of time.Now I will say I didn't like any of her views that could be seen as secular, but I know that when she talks about her Christian views being a huge focus of her decision process & starts giving things that should be under her control (or out of her control) to the hands of a zombie Jew's father who raped his mother & created the devil just to confuse people to go to Hell... when she does that, I'm against her.

Now Barack, however, has been saying alot of very Christian stuff. He's talked about his relationship with it & it does make me uncomfortable. However, he's not leaving fate in his god's hands, nor talking about some mysterious will/plan his god has for us.

[Arkansas]

Now I will say I didn't like any of her views that could be seen as secular, but I know that when she talks about her Christian views being a huge focus of her decision process & starts giving things that should be under her control (or out of her control) to the hands of a zombie Jew's father who raped his mother & created the devil just to confuse people to go to Hell... when she does that, I'm against her.

Now Barack, however, has been saying alot of very Christian stuff. He's talked about his relationship with it & it does make me uncomfortable. However, he's not leaving fate in his god's hands, nor talking about some mysterious will/plan his god has for us.

I was about to say whaaa? but then I got it. You're over my head sometimes.
I think that Obama's christianese is pandering. I really don't think that he believes deep down in one true god.

[OldManIndieKid]

I think that Obama's christianese is pandering. I really don't think that he believes deep down in one true god.And if it is pandering, so what? Could he ascend to the presidency if he admitted he didn't believe in one true god? Sadly, not in today's America. I wish it weren't so, but it's not. But in my book, it's a non-issue.

[Arkansas]

And if it is pandering, so what? Could he ascend to the presidency if he admitted he didn't believe in one true god? Sadly, not in today's America. I wish it weren't so, but it's not. But in my book, it's a non-issue.

Oh no, I know, I feel the same way that you do. Read the rest of our conversation to get the context. I think that it just how he is playing the game because like you said, it's just the way it is. It's bullshit, but it is how things are done. I'm glad he's smart enough to play along cause I like his vision for the country.

[justa bill]

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/7296/parahsailing221oy7.jpg

[ThomasC]

http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/7296/parahsailing221oy7.jpg
LOL :D
la la la

[berzerker]

Palin vs Rogue?

No question. I'd pick Rogue...

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060522/15288__rogue_l.jpg

[OldManIndieKid]

Read the rest of our conversation to get the context.Gotch ya. Sorry 'bout that. That is the bane of forums right? When some idiot (me) jumps into the middle of a conversation because he only sees the last post made and is too lazy to read the previous three pages. ;)

[akip]

people's private religious beliefs only enter politics when they organize and aggressively pursue an agenda that is peculiar to a narrow dogma rather a more generally accepted ethic.

example: banning of the use of embryonic stem cell tissue in scientific research


palin's religious political activism is fair game.

[Arkansas]

Gotch ya. Sorry 'bout that. That is the bane of forums right? When some idiot (me) jumps into the middle of a conversation because he only sees the last post made and is too lazy to read the previous three pages. ;)

Don't sweat it man. I hardly ever go back to read the previous posts. I don't think you're an idiot.


MMMMM... Rogue.

[miami2112]

MMMMM... Rogue.

rouge wave?

i must admit, i just dont see palin fitting in with these guys.
http://www.burgoblog.com/wp-content/roguewave2.jpg

[Arkansas]

rouge wave?

i must admit, i just dont see palin fitting in with these guys.
http://www.burgoblog.com/wp-content/roguewave2.jpg

Noooo, Rogue from the X-men.

She wouldn't but strangely enough that dude in between the bald guy and afro guy looks just like me 10 years ago. weird.

[Duemellon]

Nonsense...first, it is silly that we look to the president as the end all be all of issues like stem cell research. However, McCain supports it, Palin doesn't. Big deal. Nobody is actively pursuing banning it. Just like neither is pushing creationism in schools or whatever other fantasy people are dreaming up.It's not silly we're looking to the pres. It's silly it got this far. As technology advanced & the complexity available for government increased many new items were placed under the jurisdiction of the president instead of being under other branches of the government.

As for banning stem cell research & other things the pres might want to do...
McCain & Palin would not strike down Roe v. Wade. What they will do, however, is circumvent it or dillute intentionally to make way for it's eventual dismissal. Things like reducing privacy. Cut fundings for orgs that do/support it. Make it more difficult. Or even... worst of all... de-federalize the right by saying it's a state-decision *yikes!*

As for teaching Creationism, the fact you'd have a Creationism-friendly administration would allow states to decide it instead of federalizing it officially. Other things that would get challenged, or challenging other things, to make sure the Creationist view is heard.

The Creationist view has no place in secular schools. It impairs our ability for legitimate discourse from the next generation if we're going to put such a ridiculously obvious unsupported theory as being a meaningful contender to reproducable results. It gives ground to "faith" being more important than recreating the experiment to produce results.

[clonE]

this site is pretty funny. be sure to have sound on and click on some of the things in the oval office [including the windows]

http://www.palinaspresident.us/

[twentyshots]

go away now.

[Duemellon]

go away now.Nah. I want her around for the next 12 years. I want her to keep popping up like a herpe that reminds them of the mistake they made in 2008.

[twentyshots]

Nah. I want her around for the next 12 years. I want her to keep popping up like a herpe that reminds them of the mistake they made in 2008.

she certainly seems persistent enough now that she has gotten a sniff at the big time. i wonder how long the party WILL put up with her though, based on this press conference yesterday and the interviews this week. there is a lot of anonymous grumbling within the GOP.

[clonE]

Until the decent fiscal conservatives decide they can live without the nutjob religious conservatives they'll keep her around.

[akip]

right now she's polling highest among repubs for their next P nominee.

yeah, let them worry about her. in the meantime, i can pick up the clicker and zap her away.

[Hogarth]

Please, please GOP, please pick this nutty woman for your candidate. That would be like the Redhawks playng the Titans.

[the happy prole]

Don't get too cocky. People are attracted to extremes when things go bad or are uncertain. The economy really tanks, or there's another terrorist attack and Palin's right back in the mix with a good chance of winning.

Obama's got his work cut out for him. It may in fact already be too late for him to fix either situation. I think he's got to do everything right and he needs a bit of luck.

[dry-gulcher]

Don't get too cocky. People are attracted to extremes when things go bad or are uncertain. The economy really tanks, or there's another terrorist attack and Palin's right back in the mix with a good chance of winning.

Obama's got his work cut out for him. It may in fact already be too late for him to fix either situation. I think he's got to do everything right and he needs a bit of luck.
You got that right h.p. especially with people like me, energy vampires- sucking the life right out of this economy.
Just wait till there is negative growth PLUS high energy prices, that's when Obama's honymoon really ends.
My Cooley always sez what goes down must cume up.

[Ambassador V3.0]

You got that right h.p. especially with people like me, energy vampires- sucking the life right out of this economy.
Just wait till there is negative growth PLUS high energy prices, that's when Obama's honymoon really ends.
My Cooley always sez what goes down must cume up.

Dry-Gulcher, you got that right. You got some water I can sell to the Saudis? :D

[ajax]

Video of Sarah interview with turkeys being slaughtered in the background. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-kjM1asH-8) May be gruesome for some viewers.

[upwithpeople]

The look on the face of the guy in the background adds something special too.

Also, this was obviously done on purpose. Man, Alaska is fucked up.