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View Full Version : Let's take a stab at this Anti-Obama email my Uncle sent me.


Phreon
21 Oct 2008, 06:42 AM
I receive crazy chain letters from my Mom how Obama is a Muslim, commie, etc. and routinely plonk them. The following, however, is from my Uncle who is a person I consider to be fairly intelligent. I see glaring errors in the following, but I'd like to solicit you, the WOXY reader for your input:

Dear family and friends,

I’ve thought a lot about our two major candidates for president in terms of their philosophy of the role they believe government should play in our lives. Barak Obama is a compelling speaker, and to be perfectly honest, a lot of what he says he wants to impact with his policies is very desirable. It’s hard to say that I don’t want a lot of the same things for the citizens of our great country. For example, who would ever think that education is not key to enabling the American dream, or that health care is not something that everyone should have access to. And, John McCain has said the same things. The issue then becomes how they will influence those things to become a reality while being sensitive to the realities of our society and true to the Constitution. Both of these are critical considerations.

The question then becomes, how much the Federal Government is responsible for curing all of the country’s woes? It’s easy to say, let the government take care of it, however, when you say the government should take care of it, you are saying those who pay taxes (you and me) should pay for it. And, it is important to note that currently, 30% of the working population pays no (“0”) income taxes. The rhetoric of 95% of tax payers will get a tax cut is a lie when 30% don’t even pay taxes. If you take a look at Obama’s tax plan, no fewer than eight tax credits are being promised. What that in effect does is give tax dollars to those that currently pay no taxes, thus, giving a refund to many of those who haven’t paid anything. The term for this is welfare and is the redistribution of wealth in this country by the government. That is the basis of Socialism. That is not what our founding fathers had in mind when they wrote that the “government is of the people and for the people.”

EXAMPLE: One of Obama’s tax credit ideas to give a $4000 tax credit to college students in return for 100 hours of community service, which by the way equals $40 an hour (equaling an annual salary of $83,200). I have no problem with the government providing student loans, however, the government is not responsible for ensuring that everyone get a college education. If it is important enough for the individual, they will find a way to do it. Sheri, Bridget, and mom and I did it with loans because it was a value to each of us. It is not every other tax payer’s responsibility.

The mantra “tax the wealthy” sounds good to those who are not wealthy, however, the so called wealthy are the one that invest in our economy, which in turn creates jobs. The fact is, the top 5% of wage earners pay almost 60% of the personal income taxes; the top 10% pay over 70%. (See table below) AGI is adjusted gross income.

The other mantra regarding taxes is to tax corporations more (that is for being successful). Guess what, corporations pass their taxes on to the consumer so you are kidding yourself if you think increasing taxes on corporations is going to reduce the impact on you. The fact is that the US has the 2nd highest tax rate on corporations when compared to other major industrialized nations. The impact of high corporate taxes is that corporations look to export jobs to countries that have a more favorable tax rate thus, less costly to do business. Obama speaks out of both sides of his mouth by saying he will increase taxes on corporations (again for being successful) while saying he will penalize corporations that export jobs. His idea of increasing jobs in the US is via increasing government programs and spending. Every economist will tell you that the Government spending does nothing to increase GDP which is the true measure of economic growth.

I don’t believe that Obama is a bad person or wants to destroy our country; however, I have serious concerns about his policies and the root influences on his thinking that would take our country in a direction not intended by our founding fathers.

Just one other thought; think about the direction of our country with a very liberal president and veto proof majorities in the Senate and the House: both lead by very liberal Democrats, Harry Reid (Senate) and Nancy Pelosi (House of Representatives). There will be an acute absence of checks and balances in our government. Legislation and policies you could expect to see:

Employee Free Choice Act – this legislation allows unions to conduct elections in non-union businesses without a secret ballot. This opens the door to voter intimidation to vote “for the union.” Having been a member of a union, I can tell you that this is a serious issue.

Over turning the Mexico City Policy – prohibits funding international organizations that promote abortion (US tax dollars should not be use to fund abortions).

Freedom of Choice Act – Obama is a cosponsor of the so-called "Freedom of Choice Act" (FOCA, S. 1173), which has been called "the most sweeping piece of pro-abortion legislation ever proposed in Congress." The FOCA is a bill that would make partial-birth abortion legal again, strike down restrictions on taxpayer funding of abortion, and nullify virtually every state and federal law or policy that would in any way "interfere with" access to abortion, including parental notification laws.

And the list goes on.

I hope you have taken the time to read this and would welcome a continued dialog with all of you (use Reply All), especially if you disagree with my views. I would look forward to the debate.

Love,

XXXXXXXX

Like I said, I see glaring errors but as I'm not the politico some of you are, I'd like to consider alternative points of view,

Phreon

Duemellon
21 Oct 2008, 07:02 AM
30% of the working population pays no (“0”) income taxes. The rhetoric of 95% of tax payers will get a tax cut is a lie when 30% don’t even pay taxes.Inaccurate because it does nothing to define what they consider "working" nor by what mechanisms they aren't paying. If 30% were not paying through illegal means (ie: illegal workers, they simply don't file, or are paid under the table) then what's that got to do with a law change? Are they preachers, religious workers, & other non-profits? Many of them still have to pay income. There are other things to consider, but that's the 1st one for me.

As for it giving money back to those who don't pay taxes, tax credits would only be doled out to those who file taxes. So it's an impossibility if 30% aren't even filing for them to get anything.I have no problem with the government providing student loans, however, the government is not responsible for ensuring that everyone get a college education.They're working for the money. They aren't just "getting it". They're getting compensated for a job. The $40 an hour isn't really $40 an hour, it's a specific $4000 for college so the colleges get that money directly. Along with that, it's not "free" it's a compensation for work. You work, you get paid, it's how we "roll" here.The fact is, the top 5% of wage earners pay almost 60% of the personal income taxes; the top 10% pay over 70%. (See table below) AGI is adjusted gross income.
One person pays $1,000 a year in taxes. Another person pays $1,000,000 because they're rich. It would take 1000 non-rich people to pay the same amount as one rich person. So yah, the rich one will pay the bulk of taxes but in no way is it an disproportionate burden.The fact is that the US has the 2nd highest tax rate on corporations when compared to other major industrialized nations. The impact of high corporate taxes is that corporations look to export jobs to countries that have a more favorable tax rate thus, less costly to do business.Businesses' main drivers for operating overseas isn't the taxation codes but the labor costs & regulations. Taxation doesn't make up the bulk of company's expenses. Compensating humans does."the most sweeping piece of pro-abortion legislation ever proposed in Congress." The fact they used "pro-abortion" should tell you they've lost their friggin' mind & are basically immune to decent conversation about it. If I'm Pro-Abortion than you're Anti-Choice.All in all, this is one of the more calm emails. It's still sensational but it's not laced with emotional appeals & ridiculously heated viotrol. I think that's part of it's appeal.

OldManIndieKid
21 Oct 2008, 08:53 AM
The fact they used "pro-abortion" should tell you they've lost their friggin' mind & are basically immune to decent conversation about it. If I'm Pro-Abortion than you're Anti-Choice.Bingo. Spot on mate.

All in all, this is one of the more calm emails. It's still sensational but it's not laced with emotional appeals & ridiculously heated viotrol. I think that's part of it's appeal.Again, I agree 100%. This email tries the ol' "catch more flies with honey" trick. It softens the reader up by saying some nice things about Obama so that the semi-intelligent reader doesn't get offended and immediately stop reading and can it.

Good points Due.

Edited to add: If I hear one more McCain supporter say the word socialism, I might scream. What's more socialist than that freakin' economic bailout? A buddy of mine said it best last night. The only thing republicans want to socialize is losses. But if one person is getting something positive of value for free (food, education, housing), then they scream socialism. There's always a time and a place, so maybe what America needs right now is a little injection of some socialist thinking.

akip
21 Oct 2008, 09:07 AM
as someone pointed out on one of the talking head shows last night, we're already a mixed system, with both capitalist and socialist elements---as is every other developed country. if your mother collects social security and gets medicare coverage, and you let it her so she doesn't sponge off you, you're a "socialist." if you or your kids were/are educated at a public school, you're a "socialist." if you went to a state university and didn't insist upon making up for the subsidy out of your own pocket, you're a "socialist." if you use any service that's funded by tax dollars, you're a "socialist."

our formula is more capitalist than most, but we're still fucking socialists when we wanna be. yeah, we are.

the problem isn't in the mixing of systems, it's in believing that one size fits all.

slmpickens
21 Oct 2008, 09:10 AM
it seems to me that your uncle lacks a fundamental understanding of how taxes work. for example, let's say you earn $50,000/year and should be paying $12,000 in federal taxes before any deductions or credits. currently, you get exactly $12,000 in tax credits, which lowers your tax bill to $0 (so you're now one of the 30% that your uncle quotes, assuming that's accurate). so with obama's tax plan in place you get an additional $12,000 in tax credits - so you now have $24,000 to use. your tax bill is still $0. you will get no additional money from the government. nothing changes. you can only use tax credits until you're paying $0 in taxes.

so when he says: "What that in effect does is give tax dollars to those that currently pay no taxes, thus, giving a refund to many of those who haven’t paid anything. The term for this is welfare and is the redistribution of wealth in this country by the government."

he couldn't be more off base. if you're not paying taxes, tax cuts won't affect you. giving money to the poor is called welfare, but it is not the result of tax policy.

i don't have anything to add about the rest of his email. but if conservatives are so worried about our country being socialist, maybe they should take a look at the folks they've put in office for the last 8 years. the country is much closer to socialism under W than it was 8 years ago.

dannyboy
21 Oct 2008, 09:13 AM
the country is much closer to socialism under W than it was 8 years ago.

That I agree with. The Patriot Act has eroded individual freedom far more than any liberal economic plan ever could.

Shlep
21 Oct 2008, 05:05 PM
Some of it I agree with (at least in principle) and some of it...well, not sure what to say. Were I to presume to pass what could be considered informed comment on most of it, I'd need to do a little research and fact-checking.

Though I will say that the e-mail in question has at least one major, over-riding flaw: the length of the content in its entirety has got to be easily seven to ten times longer-- and thus requires a greater investment in terms of time and effort-- than the sort of folks inclined to use info culled from mass e-mails to form opinions of matters of profound importance are wiling to bear with. These are busy people we're talking about, and they have little need or use for making informed decisions, preferring instead to spend maybe 30 seconds or so skimming over something that they already agree with and which reminds them why they are right before closing it and getting on with their lives.

Hence, while I'm sure that your uncle is an intelligent chap whose willingness to try and inspire others to think critically about crucial issues affecting our great republic as it draws ever closer to a federal election is laudable, he' probably wasting his time.

OldManIndieKid
21 Oct 2008, 05:14 PM
Though I will say that the e-mail in question has at least one major, over-riding flaw: the length of the content in its entirety has got to be easily seven to ten times longer-- and thus requires a greater investment in terms of time and effort-- than the sort of folks inclined to use info culled from mass e-mails to form opinions of matters of profound importance are wiling to bear with. Funny, this is exactly how I feel every time I read one of your posts. :p:D;):)

purple_octopus
21 Oct 2008, 05:39 PM
Funny, this is exactly how I feel every time I read one of your posts. :p:D;):)
Oh fucking snap!!!! :p :D

the happy prole
21 Oct 2008, 05:59 PM
I have never read a post from shlep and felt it needed to be seven to ten times longer. :p

markalot
21 Oct 2008, 06:13 PM
It's the standard anti-liberal rant and it doesn't accuse him of being Muslim or anti-patriotic or anything else. Seems to be a reasonable letter for a change and something that would be refreshing to hear out on the campaign trail.

I agree with most of those points, no surprise, yet I'm voting for Obama and a dem congress. Failure is the best medicine, and I'm not convinced Obama will fail, but if he does so be it.

Let's try something different for a while.

the happy prole
21 Oct 2008, 06:26 PM
It's mostly bad appeals to emotion. It fails twice in that appeals to emotion are logical fallacy, and also that the emotional language fails to move me.

When the government redistributes money to him in the form of a student loan (and he is getting very favorable interest rates so yes, the government is giving him money) it's okay. When someone else gets money for doing community service, it's socialism.

If government redistribution of money is socialism, then both cases are socialism but only one is described that way. If the government helping you out relative to someone else is a "handout" then all government distributions are handouts, whether they go to big business or the poor.

And then I'm supposed to see the word "socialism" and "handout" and go apeshit, but I don't care.