So, did anybody else get f**ked over by the economy?

[Chomp Samba]

My company just laid off 20 people on October 1st. I was one. My buddy told me that his company laid off a bunch of people and then cut some benefits to boot. It's like the shoe fell and everyone around me fell with it...including me. Is anyone else feeling it now, or are all of you guys hunky dory? I hope you're all o.k. because it really sucks getting fucked up the ass by a company you've worked at for 15 years.

[classicgrrl]

My company just laid off 20 people on October 1st. I was one. My buddy told me that his company laid off a bunch of people and then cut some benefits to boot. It's like the shoe fell and everyone around me fell with it...including me. Is anyone else feeling it now, or are all of you guys hunky dory? I hope you're all o.k. because it really sucks getting fucked up the ass by a company you've worked at for 15 years.


I feel incredibly to have gotten the job I did. Be VERY VERY aggressive in your job search and good luck!

I am fearful that Phreon will get laid off but so far so good.

[Tweeks_Coffee]

My company just laid off 20 people on October 1st. I was one. My buddy told me that his company laid off a bunch of people and then cut some benefits to boot. It's like the shoe fell and everyone around me fell with it...including me. Is anyone else feeling it now, or are all of you guys hunky dory? I hope you're all o.k. because it really sucks getting fucked up the ass by a company you've worked at for 15 years.

Damn, sorry to hear about that.

So far I've weathered the storm. I believe close to 70 people have been laid off from my company this year. I'm 99% sure I'll be on the chopping block if lay offs come around again. So I've been looking for work recently, most jobs include a serious move for me. Mostly it looks like I may make it out okay. My major issue is if I have to sell my house. I have some equity now, but I've been here for a couple years. My best hope now is to sell for what I owe and make a clean break for another part of the country.

[DaHood]

I feel incredibly

You feel incredibly what? :p



Everyone is getting fucked in one way or another. Even if you don't lose your job you'll be paying for the big bailout. I've already spent seven months laid off late last year to earlier this year. I easily lost $15k. I'm going to get laid off again after the turn of the year. I have a couple more weeks of unemployment and after that I get placement in bank where I make some money at least. Eventually I'll be placed in another job because they're very short of journeymen in my profession. They spent way too much money on my education to let me go that easily however we are looking at 700+ getting laid off from my plant alone.

Hate all you want but it's times like this I'm glad I have a union. I'll be okay for a while.

[grumbachr]

THe GF and I are in similar industries and we are doing pretty good for our selves. We are just above living paycheck to paycheck and (knock on wood) we both have pretty secure positions. So things out here for me are good. It helps to be a state that doesn't seem to be as effected as others. I think Utah has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the nation (top 2 or 3 maybe).

I hate to see anyone lose their job and struggle. I wish anyone good luck in staying afloat or getting afloat if you recently fallen overboard.

[tempo]

My company just laid off 20 people on October 1st. I was one.

Sorry to hear it. My company just laid off a few of my friends. I've seen it happen a lot in my career, but it never stops sucking a big donkey dick. Especially when your name is on the list.

[Duemellon]

I got mine early.

Back in 2001 I was one of a series of layoffs at the advertising company I was at. Theyr'e like canaries in a coal mine, when something's wrong they're the 1st to feel an impact. I spent 1½ years inconsistently employed after that. I got my 1st steady job making 1/2 of what I was in 2001.

After that I spent a year or so working there until I got a few more inconsistently appearing project/contract jobs & got the one I have now which is still not near the pay I had in 2001. I've long since adjusted my lifestyle to fit my bills, but I was one of the 1sts to feel it.

Sorry CSomb, sorry to hear that. I don't know what field of work you were in or what you're qualified for but you can have a legion of not-so-grumpy people here putting some energy towards getting your ever-so-grumpy-wumpy ass a new 9-5. Let us know what you can do.

[mishka77]

My employer has been offering buyouts to people close to retirement. Since most of the people I work with are within a few year of retirement, I hope that absorbs most of the impact of this situation. However, we will have barely any budget to do our work. I don't know what will happen when we only have enough money to pay the staff, but not the contracts. We have a pretty powerful union and my employer protects the staff as long as possible. But they have laid people off in the 80's.

I had a dream that we had no office supplies and we had to pay per use to use our computers, and we were all sitting around in dark offices. I hope I am not psychic. I need to update my resume, just in case.

I hope you find something soon, Chomp Samba.

[Chomp Samba]

Sorry CSomb, sorry to hear that. I don't know what field of work you were in or what you're qualified for but you can have a legion of not-so-grumpy people here putting some energy towards getting your ever-so-grumpy-wumpy ass a new 9-5. Let us know what you can do.
I appreciate all the thoughts. I was a Systems Admin at a manufacturing plant. I'm hoping to find a similar position in the medical field. Like hospital IT or maybe IT for the school system or something. Really anywhere where I could give two shits about the business. I really didn't like manufacturing.

Something I've always been interested in is being an MRI tech...the guy that fixes and maintains them that is. But I have no idea what it takes to get into a position like that.

Anyway, if anybody hears about anything in the Dayton area, please pass it along to me. I need all the help I can get.

[matt]

Man, that sucks. I still have a couple of contacts in Dayton from when I worked up there 5-6 years ago before I got laid off from United Healthcare in Kettering. I'll reach out to them and see what I can find out for you.

Oh yeah - my uncle is also an IT guy and he comes to me sometimes with job opportunities. Most of them are on base, I'll see what he says, too.

[justa bill]

Markets call time on Iceland

* Robert Peston
* 4 Oct 08, 12:35 PM

The best way of seeing Iceland is as a country that turned itself into a giant hedge fund.

For years it paid higher interest rates than in many parts of the world, so its financial institutions borrowed a ton of hot money from abroad, which they then re-cycled into investments all over northern Europe, including the UK.

The Icelandic banking boom was an economic phenomenon created by what's known as the carry trade - whereby colossal sums of money were borrowed in places like Japan, where interest rates were effectively zero, for lending to institutions in high-interest-paying economies, such as Iceland.

This, for years, seemed to be a no-lose arbitrage on differential interest rates in a globalised economy.

But it was just another manifestation of the pumping up of the credit bubble, which is now deflating and hurting us all.

Here are the lethal statistics about Iceland: the value of its economic output, its GDP, is about $20bn; but its big banks have borrowed some $120bn in foreign currencies.

Now that's what I call leverage - and remember that's just the overseas liabilities of its commercial banks.

If this were a business, and if it had no other borrowings (which of course Iceland does have), this would be a debt-to-ebitda ratio of 6.

Or to put it another way, Iceland simply doesn't have the domestic earnings to service this kind of debt.

Which is why if the Icelandic Government were to formally underwrite all these liabilities - which it might just have to do, given that other banks and financial institutions no longer want to touch Iceland with the longest barge-pole ever constructed - well its national-debt-to-GDP ratio would be at a level that make the UK in the 1970s look like a model of prudence.

And if Icelandic taxpayers actually had to service all that debt, well there wouldn't be a lot left over for even the basics of life.

It's a proper old mess.

Of course I'm being a tad unfair, in that the banks that have foolishly borrowed all this wonga have invested in tanker-loads of offshore assets.

Much of the British high street, a load of property and the Hammers have been financed or are owned by Icelandic banks and financiers.

And those that have borrowed from Icelandic banks have frequently borrowed too much. Which means they will have to start looking for alternative sources of working capital and debt at a time when over-leveraged outfits aren't flavour of the month with our banks. Ouch.

So Iceland's problems have a direct knock-on for the British economy - and goodness alone knows how exposed our banks are to Icelandic ones through the interbank market or derivatives market. One British bank with a reasonable name and a long history, Singer & Friedlander, is owned by the Icelandic bank, Kaupthing.

That'll be making the City watchdog, the Financial Services Authority, a tad uncomfortable, because Kaupthing - which is no minnow, with gross assets of $73bn - has the worst case of financial BO I've encountered in some time.

On Friday, had anyone wished to take out insurance in the credit default swaps market to guarantee repayment of debt issued by Kaupthing, he or she would have had to pay a premium of £625,000 to guarantee the return of £1m.

Which is simply to say that Kaupthing couldn't issue new debt, even if it wanted to.

And even the Icelandic government is classed by the markets as a lousy credit risk. On Friday, the cost of insuring $10m of Icelandic debt was $1.5m up front and $500,000 a year - a cripplingly large premium.

So what'll happen to poor indebted Iceland?

Well, although its central bank has fairly substantial reserves - enough according to the central bank governor to cover imports for eight to nine months - it's difficult to see how it can re-float without international help.

[Marlowe]

dude, that sucks ass & i'm really sorry to hear.

i was in a somewhat similar situation about 2 years ago... my company told me my job was going away and i had a choice to either take a shitty-ass job i didn't want or take a hike. i chose the latter after 10 years with the same company. and although it was a real ego blow to me and difficult at the time, it ended up being the best thing that ever happened to me because i was way way way due to change scenery anyway.

that doesn't mean you're guaranteed to immediately get a better job or anything, but i'm pretty optimistic for you that this will end up being a good thing for you too, when all's said and done. that doesn't mean it won't suck in the short run, but i bet in the long run you'll look back and say it was a good kick in the pants for you. and, you're a really smart dude who's good at what he does, so you shouldn't have any problem showing other companies & orgs what good things you can do for them.

best of luck, brother. will be sending vibes your way.

[dannyboy]

I'm still paying a mortgage on a house that I no longer live in and can't sell because I owe more on it than it's currently worth thanks to the real estate bubble bursting. At least I can afford the payment and still live though. Others aren't as fortunate.

[frizgolf]

Yeah, this sucks alright. Sending vibes your way as well, man.

I've had 19 jobs since high school (grad 1975). Got laid off more times than I've been laid. Been fired once. Simply quit two more times. The layoffs happened during economic downturns.
Jobs suck. I'm convinced a small percentage of the population ever really enjoys their jobs. The rest of us merely put up with 'em.
With my high turnover, I learned to never consider a mortgage. I've always rented, because auto sales are a true canary in a coal mine. No one buys new cars when the economy tanks. I decided to go to night school to climb out of that vortex. Finally quit the auto biz after 21 years after finding a tech job in the even more volatile construction biz. After about 4 years of detailing steel buildings, I recognized the writing on the wall during the dotcom burst. I'd heard management speak that way before. Layoffs began. Overtime was foisted upon the few of us left. One day I just got up and walked out, and went to the disc golf course. Fortune shined; I ran into a golf buddy who told me about an opening for the job I have now, working for the County Engineer.
We'd been told in the Engineer's office about a year ago there would be no layoffs. My spidey sense tingled. In the private sector, that means layoffs are coming. So far we haven't had any, but attrition is at work. We're not replacing anyone who gets fired, retires, or who moves on. I hear our dental plan is out after this year. I fear the economy will take out medical as well.
Hell, I'm still prepared to be laid off. It's happened to me with each economic downturn since I joined the working world.

Hang tough, man. You're a smart dude. Keep your focus. Someone out there needs you more than you need them.

[mikeatthemadfro]

stocks down 30% so far... I'm 30 years away from cashing in so...no big deal yet...

I'm in sales...lawn service sales...and people are pulling back a bit...trimming down their overall plans more than they have in the past couple of years, but still buying...

but my wife and I are still employed and still paycheck to paycheck...

I still aspire (write) but await the day when that pays off...

runsofftoplaylotteryandplayoutthestring

[akip]

sorry to hear it. any disruption in employment is really tough, especially with a family to support. but you're young and skilled and, hopefully, adaptable. i'm guessing you haven't been living way beyond your means like a lot of people. you've always come off like the survivor type. i'm confident you'll land on your feet. good luck!

so far i've only been a little burned, but i still think it's a little ominous. my 60-year-old furnace finally bit the dust. i'd gotten a bunch of quotes a few years ago and really liked this one guy who was recommended by my super-competent electrician, since he was also very straight forward with me at the time, and also had a competitive quote, i called him first. he's coming over tomorrow a.m. but he's already warned me that prices have gone up...significantly. chinese are using up so much metal that a lot of materials, including steel and aluminum, are in short supply.

i also heard yesterday that someone we know who is building a new house is experiencing significant delays 'cause they can't get steel.

i'm not too worried about the market so long as i don't have to tap into any investment savings.

[Chomp Samba]

Thanks again for all your thoughts guys. Hearing your stories is exactly what I needed. It was so weird getting laid off. I left the personelle office after HR gave me the news. I was asked to just leave quietly and come back later for my things. So, the next day I came in and was pretty much ignored by people I had been working with for years. My boss (who did not give me the news, but was pretty much instrumental in my lay off) didn't even speak to me. Even the co-workers in my department were all clammed up and just kinda' sat around sighing while I packed up, as if I was bothering them. I spoke to and commiserated with about 4 people out of 30. I doubt that there is a single person in that whole company that I can depend on. And this after 15 years of crawling under their desks to fix their PCs, talking about families and hopes and dreams. It was a shock. It took me a couple of days and a bottle of vodka to make sense of it.

I'm officially starting my new job search tomorrow. I'm pretty confident that I will find something. Hopefully it's nearby and it's something I like. I'm starting to feel better about being forced out of the soul crushing grind of working in manufacturing. Constant layoffs and restructuring were causing an atmosphere of dread that had became palpable for the last two or three years. Wish me luck and please let me know about any openings you might hear about.

[frizgolf]

I don't know that they were avoiding you as if you were some bother as you were packing up. I think, as humans are wont to do, that they couldn't think of anything to say. They were grieving a loss, much like the way folks clam up with nothing to say when someone dies. They see you as a canary in the coal mine. They're all afraid for their own jobs now, especially seeing someone they liked so well getting the boot. That's all, man. Don't hold it against 'em. The fact we spend most of our waking hours with co-workers, which makes folks open up a little more over time, makes it seem that, as co-workers, we're closer than maybe we really are. I had that same feeling many times after leaving jobs. "Wow, I'll never get to ask how his kid's soccer tournament went. How their divorce is going. If they bought that house they were looking at." That sort of thing. The amazing thing is, in a new job, the cycle starts over. I've learned to keep relationships with co-workers in the office. I have plenty of friends outside work.
Good luck to you, man. You got what it takes to land on your feet solidly.

[classicgrrl]

because of a relationship I kept once the person left the company, I was able to locate a job after I left that was 10K higher than what I was making prior. I may have to drive to dayton, but it is worth it.

she got a me a job that didn't even exist. in fact, there are 4 of us who all worked together at ITT who are now working in dayton, and if a person leaves it may soon be 5. and you know who it's gonna hurt? ITT - we all signed confidentiality agreements - for the numbers. the real knowledge is in relationships, process, procedures, and policies and we are all using what we learned at ITT to better our current employer.

don't burn your bridges. and don't listen to HR. what are they gonna do, fire you?

get your co-workers names and email addresses if nothing else and use it to network to get another job. You should know all their email addys, email them and let them know you are seeking and send all your resume. somebody may know somebody. if they email you back, keep their info and keep in touch from time to time.

there is no pride when seeking a job in a horrific economy. and they well know they could be next.

and file for unemployment. it is now 13 weeks longer than it used to be and you may need it.

[jneale]

So, the next day I came in and was pretty much ignored by people I had been working with for years. .

not that i'm saying it is ok not to talk to you - but it is normal, they don't know what to say & feel bad because they are thankful it is you & not them....shitty i know

i was laid off once & it was the WORST thing possible - it felt like it was all my fault.

it isn't you fault, treat the job search like it is a job, do more than just send out resumes - be active - call everyone you know & let them know you are looking

[Chomp Samba]

I don't know that they were avoiding you as if you were some bother as you were packing up. I think, as humans are wont to do, that they couldn't think of anything to say. They were grieving a loss, much like the way folks clam up with nothing to say when someone dies. They see you as a canary in the coal mine. They're all afraid for their own jobs now, especially seeing someone they liked so well getting the boot. That's all, man. Don't hold it against 'em.
I don't. Now that I've had a little time to think about it, I understand their reactions. And I definitely don't feel like it's my fault. The fact that I was one of twenty and some of them had more seniority and respect for me told me that there was some pretty messed up reasoning behind it.

[Marlowe]

I don't know that they were avoiding you as if you were some bother as you were packing up. I think, as humans are wont to do, that they couldn't think of anything to say. They were grieving a loss, much like the way folks clam up with nothing to say when someone dies. They see you as a canary in the coal mine. They're all afraid for their own jobs now, especially seeing someone they liked so well getting the boot. That's all, man. Don't hold it against 'em. The fact we spend most of our waking hours with co-workers, which makes folks open up a little more over time, makes it seem that, as co-workers, we're closer than maybe we really are. I had that same feeling many times after leaving jobs. "Wow, I'll never get to ask how his kid's soccer tournament went. How their divorce is going. If they bought that house they were looking at." That sort of thing. The amazing thing is, in a new job, the cycle starts over. I've learned to keep relationships with co-workers in the office. I have plenty of friends outside work.
Good luck to you, man. You got what it takes to land on your feet solidly.

that's a great post, and spot-on. i really learned that lesson when my mom died... people have VERY different reactions to other people's traumas. and, a lot of people who haven't experienced the loss of someone close to them, don't know what to say, so they say nothing. they don't realize that you don't have to say the "perfect" thing at all... just saying something and letting them know you're thinking of them means more than most people ever realize. just one of those lessons in life that you don't learn until you learn it.

so yeah, it's best to understand that these co-workers didn't know what to say so they sort of stuck their heads down. kindof shitty on one level, but understandable in a way, too.

chomp - you're really going to have a roller-coaster of feelings, so the only advise i can give you is just to ride it out. you're going to have moments when you get super-pissed at things people did or didn't do, and you're going to feel sad and pissed and happy to be gone, etc. just let the stuff work its way through you.

if you feel like you're up for starting to look tomorrow, then by all means go ahead. but, something to keep in mind is that if you don't 'really' feel like you've got an even keel going, feel free to give yourself a week to let things work out through your system. probably don't want to smoke any splifs ;) but feel free to spend a 'lost week' getting drunk at 11 am and watching bad movies on basic cable, or going for hikes in john bryan, etc.

from the situation i had, i left my company on friday and started a new job on monday. that was a mistake. i took the first offer i had because i kinda worried that nothing else would come along for a while. so, after 3 months i ended up leaving that company for the job i have now. i love my job like i haven't loved a job since i was 22, and i feel like fate really dealt me a good hand. so, what i'm trying to say is that you should take some time and be confident in yourself that you are good enough that you really owe it to yourself to wait for the right gig rather than feeling like you have to grab onto the first thing regardless of whether it's an improvement on your last situation.

[Chomp Samba]

chomp - you're really going to have a roller-coaster of feelings, so the only advise i can give you is just to ride it out. you're going to have moments when you get super-pissed at things people did or didn't do, and you're going to feel sad and pissed and happy to be gone, etc. just let the stuff work its way through you.

if you feel like you're up for starting to look tomorrow, then by all means go ahead. but, something to keep in mind is that if you don't 'really' feel like you've got an even keel going, feel free to give yourself a week to let things work out through your system. probably don't want to smoke any splifs ;) but feel free to spend a 'lost week' getting drunk at 11 am and watching bad movies on basic cable, or going for hikes in john bryan, etc.
Great advice Marlowe. I am going through all of that right now but I've started an exercise routine to deal with some of the stress/anxiety. The bottle of vodka I had was the last for awhile (although I can't guarantee how coherent I will be at the Black Keys show this Friday). I fell asleep and burnt a pizza and now my house smells like burnt pizza. The smell is a constant reminder now of what downing a bottle of vodka can do.

I've started my hunt and already found several opportunities. I think there's a pretty decent market for IT out there. At least that's how it looks.

[twentyshots]

i may have to get back to you on that one.

[jneale]

just had a meeting, nothing 100%, but change is coming, to borrow a phrase

[awesplosion]

In all honestly I'm a little too young to know anyone who got screwed by a company they worked for for 10+ years, but I'm a recent college grad and let me tell yah I know a whole lot of my friends who either just graduated or graduated a couple years ago and either can't find work or they have been working lots of service jobs, ie coffee shops, restaurants, etc they don't really like in between college and getting a job they actually like. Not nearly as bad as getting canned because of a downturn, but it's still not a great situation when you're 24 and living in your old room at your parent's house. I've been fortunate enough to find a job that pays decently while I prepare for grad school in some life sciency field, but I'm not sure if I should go next year or if I should keep this job and try to invest before doing anything like grad school.

Regardless, my thoughts go out to you Chomp and anyone else on the boards getting reamed economically.

[Merv Kemp]

There have been 4 waves of layoffs at my company this year. Most recently, on October 2nd, several people that had been here 20+ years were let go. Quite honestly, in my position, I'm next.

Thankfully after a recent promotion I saved a bit and instead of buying a house or something stupid like that I started living on the cheap in case I did lose my job (buying a house is only stupid if you are in danger of losing a job/income that wouldn't be easily replaced). I'm an accountant with a bit of understanding of the market and I had a feeling this was coming.

Very, very ugly today. Down 710 last I checked, to 9615. Puckered up tighter than a snare drum, over here.

[classicgrrl]

In all honestly I'm a little too young to know anyone who got screwed by a company they worked for for 10+ years, but I'm a recent college grad and let me tell yah I know a whole lot of my friends who either just graduated or graduated a couple years ago and either can't find work or they have been working lots of service jobs, ie coffee shops, restaurants, etc they don't really like in between college and getting a job they actually like. Not nearly as bad as getting canned because of a downturn, but it's still not a great situation when you're 24 and living in your old room at your parent's house. I've been fortunate enough to find a job that pays decently while I prepare for grad school in some life sciency field, but I'm not sure if I should go next year or if I should keep this job and try to invest before doing anything like grad school.

Regardless, my thoughts go out to you Chomp and anyone else on the boards getting reamed economically.

go back to grad school. if you can, continue working while doing it. by the time you graduate hopefully the economy will be a bit better. i know what it is like to graduate in crappy economies because I have done it twice now....

[berzerker]

wow, DSM - sorry to hear that you are a casualty. Probably, and very sadly, only one of many to come, unfortunately...

Hope you find something soon that works for you... sounds like you aren't totally thrilled with what you were doing last, anyway.

...so far i've only been a little burned, but i still think it's a little ominous. my 60-year-old furnace finally bit the dust. i'd gotten a bunch of quotes a few years ago and really liked this one guy who was recommended by my super-competent electrician, since he was also very straight forward with me at the time, and also had a competitive quote, i called him first. he's coming over tomorrow a.m. but he's already warned me that prices have gone up...significantly. chinese are using up so much metal that a lot of materials, including steel and aluminum, are in short supply.



You know, I wish someone had a suitable explanation for that, in regards to the metal shortage. Everyday, tons of metal arrives on our shores in the form of shipping containers, and that is NOT shipped back to China in it's current state - it's not cost effective to ship an empty container, and we don't export enough stuff to make up the difference.
What happens to the the enpty containers? Can't somebody make them into furnaces?

[drougan]

wow, DSM - sorry to hear that you are a casualty. Probably, and very sadly, only one of many to come, unfortunately...

Hope you find something soon that works for you... sounds like you aren't totally thrilled with what you were doing last, anyway.




You know, I wish someone had a suitable explanation for that, in regards to the metal shortage. Everyday, tons of metal arrives on our shores in the form of shipping containers, and that is NOT shipped back to China in it's current state - it's not cost effective to ship an empty container, and we don't export enough stuff to make up the difference.
What happens to the the enpty containers? Can't somebody make them into furnaces?


Well, what the hell does the boat go back with? nothing?

And I don't think it's a shortage of raw Matl., I think it has more to do with availablity of the steel in it's usable form (sheet good, wide flange beam, etc) that drives up the price.

[not_ontheboards]

In case you were wondering WTF happened, I finally found a intelligent, but understandable source to explain the whole mess on NPR's This American Life this week.

This American Life: Episode 365 (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=365)

I highly recommend you download this podcast and take a listen, though frankly it makes me even more scared (and I'm only halfway through it). It finally makes sense why the dominoes are falling: First Lehman, then AIG, then others and how/why it affects you and me.

//Ok, gotta get ready to watch BBC news on Digital Channel 14.something to watch Iceland collapse and hear reports of the Russian stock market down 20% and the rest of Europe down 7-9% (We got off lucky today:eek:)

[noonan]

Sorry to hear this, but it sounds like you're on top of things.

My company has grown every year in it's 20 years of existence, even through the dotcom bubble and, more perilously, after 9/11. This year was no exception with healthy revenue and margin growth. Next year is a bit of a pickle. Between the loss of one big financial services account that's been hit pretty hard ,and planned raises and added staff for growth that was projected at the beginning of the year, our forecast is looking a bit bleak.

Thankfully our management is and has always been transparent about our fundamentals. Our owner would rather eat glass than slash the bonus pool let alone actually lay people off (that's never happened.) He's put it on himself and the sales staff to pick up the slack and has had every one of them submit their plan to do so. These plans were shared with the whole company and progress against them will be shared with the whole company on a quarterly basis. It's daunting for me personally as I've just transitioned into more of a sales role. I will say that it's a much more positive motivator to be working for 130 coworkers and their families rather than to be scratching out a few more dollars for a faceless corporation.

[akip]

just a note: the furnace/duct work turned out to be only 10% higher than 2 years ago. i was worried it could be worse.

here's an article i found from a year ago that seems relevant:

steeled for a shortage (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20070408/ai_n18996298/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1)

shortages of iron ore factor in:

iron ore shortage hits china (http://www.redorbit.com/news/business/1072702/iron_ore_shortage_hits_china_business_asia_by_bloo mberg/index.html)

according to tom friedman in "hot, flat and crowded," it's not just china (responsible for about 60% of the increase in steel consumption) and india but the rise of the global middle class---indonesia, brazil, other parts of asia and south america---that will put massive pressure on natural resources. well, we wanted the world to share our values. ;)

i'll have to look it up later, but the green idea is to make everything we use fully recyclable---not just once and then to the dump.

[vanler]

In case you were wondering WTF happened, I finally found a intelligent, but understandable source to explain the whole mess on NPR's This American Life this week.

This American Life: Episode 365 (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=365)

I highly recommend you download this podcast and take a listen, though frankly it makes me even more scared (and I'm only halfway through it). It finally makes sense why the dominoes are falling: First Lehman, then AIG, then others and how/why it affects you and me.


Second.

I'm actually going to listen to this one a second time.

[Chomp Samba]

In case you were wondering WTF happened, I finally found a intelligent, but understandable source to explain the whole mess on NPR's This American Life this week.

This American Life: Episode 365 (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=365)
I listened to that twice over the weekend. Scared and depressed the shit out of me.

just had a meeting, nothing 100%, but change is coming, to borrow a phrase
I got my fingers crossed for ya.

[jneale]

I got my fingers crossed for ya.

thanks, but don't cross them for me....i'll be playing the part of the bad guy

[frizgolf]

I listened to that twice over the weekend. Scared and depressed the shit out of me.


Yeah, I'm afraid it's gonna be more than bologna and ramen noodles while cutting back on the cell minutes bad times. It's gonna be more like move the wife and kids back in with mom and hunt squirrels for food bad.

[Fourthisto]

How far are you willing to drive to work, Chompy? Is Cincy a bit much? NKY?

And I don't think it's a shortage of raw Matl., I think it has more to do with availablity of the steel in it's usable form (sheet good, wide flange beam, etc) that drives up the price.Let me and my steel-business hat step in here a second. Demand is DOWN for domestic steel product, so usually that means a downturn for pricing...... you know, the whole supply v. demand doctrine of 1640 BC.

But we're far from usual' times. To combat low demand, steel mills are reducing capacity (taking down production lines for wink-wink-nudge-nudge "maintenance" purposes) so that an unnaturally lowered supply helps to keep steel as high as possible.

After more than DOUBLING in price earlier in the year, prices are on a decline, but not to the natural levels you'd expect in a low demand environment.

i'll have to look it up later, but the green idea is to make everything we use fully recyclable---not just once and then to the dump.Recycling steel is big business. Some steel mills are referred to as "mini-mills", they take scrap (let's say the steel from a totaled car) and melt it down, producing raw materials for another coil to stamp out more auto components from it. You might have noticed more "we buy scrap metal" signs from local dealers, demand is pretty high for steel appliances, cars, I've even seen paneling from fabricated housing returned to scrap dealers for $$$. So yeah, the more of that that happens the greener it gets.....

And be thankful the duct work wasn't needed two months ago, you would have paid a HELL of a lot more.

[frizgolf]

Recycling steel is big business. Some steel mills are referred to as "mini-mills", they take scrap (let's say from a stolen disc golf basket) and melt it down

Fixed for me.

[Duemellon]

Recycling steel is big business. Some steel mills are referred to as "mini-mills", they take scrap (let's say from a stolen disc golf basket) and melt it downFixed for me.... manhole covers, graveyard urns, mousoleum fencing, house piping...

[dannyboy]

... manhole covers, graveyard urns, mousoleum fencing, house piping...

...and historical markers (http://www.kentucky.com/181/story/546490.html)

[juggles]

So far, I'm doing OK on the year. But I've noticed that I'm taking more of the crappy fall-back jobs since the good ones don't seem to be rolling around. So I'm working harder and doing fewer of the gigs I would like to be doing to stay even. I'm not optimistic.

Chomp Samba, sorry to hear about your bad news. Best of luck finding a new spot.

Akip, we replaced an archaic furnace a few years ago. We took a loan to do it, but our gas bills are about half what they were so we're just about breaking even. Yours may not offset as much, but your new system is bound to be much more efficient than the old one.

[justsoyaknow]

There have been 4 waves of layoffs at my company this year. Most recently, on October 2nd, several people that had been here 20+ years were let go. Quite honestly, in my position, I'm next.

Thankfully after a recent promotion I saved a bit and instead of buying a house or something stupid like that I started living on the cheap in case I did lose my job (buying a house is only stupid if you are in danger of losing a job/income that wouldn't be easily replaced). I'm an accountant with a bit of understanding of the market and I had a feeling this was coming.

Very, very ugly today. Down 710 last I checked, to 9615. Puckered up tighter than a snare drum, over here.

exactly.....
i was laid off in 07, but i knew it was coming for years. i survived 6, yes 6 downsizings and got laid off. I too was looking at condos in 03/04 but i knew my job wasn't stable, and I also was not thrilled with the company, and knew i might just quit at any time. No house=very wise decision.

Anyways, this job used to be my passion, 14 years in the same industry, and it was the only company I was with after college. Fortunately, i had 5 months severance and enjoyed one hell of a summer break.

but...this job was also my life. my passion, my pain, sometimes 70 hours a week. Pretty much i was married to my job. It was my income, my significant other, and also my entertainment.

The only way i can decribe the feeling is a rollercoaster of emotions. I truly think what I went through was similar to a divorce.

I am working now (not doing what i like or SHOULD be doing), but i'm doing alright, and i'm going to have to wait till the economy picks up, and seriously consider moving to a bigger market.

anyways, i went through all of this a year ago, so my heart goes out to anyone who"

1. just got laid off
2. having problems finding a new job
3. living in fear of being laid off
4. feeling stuck in a bad situation, because opportunities are limited.

It's going to be rough for awhile.

[The Big Crunch]

We've been in a hiring freeze for nearly a year. There have been some cuts at other offices, and we've let some IT staff go, but I'm pretty safe. I don't like my job (it's boring, unfulfilling, and the pay ain't much to brag about) but it should be secure.

Otherwise, this thing can't affect me all that much. I've been living paycheck-to-paycheck my whole life. I don't have much credit card debt, recently paid off my car, and have never had anywhere close to enough income or savings to think about buying a house.

[Poolio]

Otherwise, this thing can't affect me all that much. I've been living paycheck-to-paycheck my whole life. I don't have much credit card debt, recently paid off my car, and have never had anywhere close to enough income or savings to think about buying a house.
I've got some money in a retirement account from my last job that is currently being raped and pillaged. But other than that I should be reasonably safe. I have some money stashed away in the bank and I am not late on any payments so no creditors should come beating down my door. This is a time when I am glad that I left my job at the public library though. They were having a hard enough time making ends meet without having a credit crisis as well... and I know it's only a matter of time before they start doing deep cuts in my old department. However, I am not going to start paying into my new job's retirement program just yet. Gonna give the market a year to settle and toss my money into a savings account until then.

[silentpaul]

My gf works part time for the Y, and they just enacted a spending freeze. They say they're fine financially, but they want to cut back until things play out with the economy.

[akip]

Akip, we replaced an archaic furnace a few years ago. We took a loan to do it, but our gas bills are about half what they were so we're just about breaking even. Yours may not offset as much, but your new system is bound to be much more efficient than the old one.

yeah, a lot of my heat was going right up the chimney. there are variables, but supposedly i could save $500 a year.

[Chomp Samba]

How far are you willing to drive to work, Chompy? Is Cincy a bit much? NKY?
I'd like to stay around Dayton if I could. I drove 50 minutes both ways to my last job and it took it's toll. Turned an 8 hour day into a 10 hour day. If I don't find something in the area in the next month or so, I'll start reaching out further.

[berzerker]

DSM, I don't think any of these are you, but my company is hiring the following:

Open positions MCOP Dayton/Kettering currently is working to fill:
Solutions Delivery Specialist
Account Coordinator
Financial Analyst
Product Development Procurement Specialist
Senior Product Development Procurement Specialist
Licensing Account Manager

apparently, a "Solutions Delivery Specialist" is a purchasing manager for one of our retail specific channels, whatever that means...

[Motti]

I just bought some stock. These things can't keep falling, and some very solid companies are at half of what they were 4 months ago.

Too cheap, it will come around someday.

[frizgolf]

I just bought some stock. These things can't keep falling, and some very solid companies are at half of what they were 4 months ago.

Too cheap, it will come around someday.

Would have loved to get P&G when it bottomed out during the dotcom burst.

[Chomp Samba]

I was reading Sheckie's awesome album of the year post and it hit me that I left this post hanging. So, here's an update for those that might be interested in how things turned out.

Quick recap...I got laid off in a "reduction of force" on October 1st. I was not given any advance warning and I actually rolled out a big project that I had been struggling to finish that very morning. A little after lunch, the HR lady called me to her office. I figured her PC was acting up and she needed technical help. My heart sank when I walked in and she and her boss were sitting at the conference table and they asked me to sit down. I knew exactly what it was. They gave me the bullshit speil about the economy and etc, but I was too busy trying to stave off a heart attack. All I could think of was, "WhatamigoingtodoWhatamigoingtodoWhatamigoingtodoWh atamigoingtodo??1?". In 4 facilities, 20 people were let go that day. Seniority did not save my ass as there were several IT guys that had been working there less than I and as far as I know, still do. It was mostly a, "Who do we have that is getting paid a bunch because they've been here a long time that we can get rid of and give their work to someone who will get paid less". I think they threw a couple of newbies to the fire to make it look good, but it was pretty obvious.

Anyway, this was about the weirdest thing that's ever happened to me. I've never been fired or "let go" at any job in my whole life. When HR was done with me, I was asked to leave quietly and come back later for my things. I came back the next day and collected my stuff under the watchful eye of my ex-boss. He was really the only one I held any contempt for at the time. He was the one that slowly forced me into obsolescence by not allowing me to train in any newer technologies and relegating me to busy work while the other IT guys got good projects. In retrospect, all the signs were there that this kinda' thing was coming. Also in retrospect, I realized how much I disliked my job and that this was probably the best thing that could have happened to me. Retrospect is a bitch....and I was still fuming. I think the thing that got to me the most was how cold all of my fellow employees were to me. I worked there 13 years and only one of them contacted me or tried to help me out, cheer me up, etc. It was just so weird to spend all of that time with these people, only to find out how ready they were to let me go. The same thing happened with my friends out of work. Not a single one of them called me the whole time I was unemployed. That really pissed me off, because I coulda' used a good drinking buddy on a couple of occasions. It was like I had some kind of contagious disease that people could catch by association. On the other hand, several of you guys reached out to me with your kind thoughts and advice. And people from the Mother's group that my wife belongs to took a collection and donated several bags of groceries and toiletries to us on two different occasions. I was stunned and filled with gratitude at how people I knew very little to not at all, were the most generous with their time and consideration.

I guess the biggest thing that came out of getting laid off was the whole paradigm shift all of this caused in my thinking. First off, I can never look at a job the same way again. I will put all of my energy into future jobs but I can't visualize myself ever working for any place as long as 13 years or more. It's not that I'm not dedicated, because I am, but I don't think that employers are dedicated anymore. Secondly, I look at people completely differently. I used to open myself up to co-workers in what I though was a way to strengthen friendship. I woulda' thought that all of the people I got along with and spent so much time with would have at least contacted me or dropped me a note, but I haven't heard from a single one. Since the layoff, I have tried to focus some of my energies on the people that gave me support during my layoff. Those are the people that I want to know and have in my life. They were there for me and I want to be there for them.

There are a lot of other things I see a whole lot differently, but they are too many too discuss. Suffice it to say, the process was an eye opener.

So, here I am in Chicago, typing this whole thing out on my lunch break. I work for a company based in downtown Cincy, but for the next few months I'll be spending time training in Chicago...actually Naperville. Once the training is over in March, I'll be based in Cincinnati full time. This actually blows my mind a little. These people actually believe in me and see potential. Otherwise, they wouldn't be flying me out and putting me up in Chicago for the next few months. I'm getting training in new technologies and there's all kinds of room for advancement. Plus, I'm making more money than I did at my old job. So, it's actually the biggest, "FUCK YOU" I could send to my old job and all the people who didn't take the time to care.

I guess it's true that living good is the best revenge.

[Slar]

Glad to hear all is going well for you. It's no fun being in the position of not knowing where your next paycheck is going to come from.

[classicgrrl]

congrats on the new job and save your extra $$$!!!

[Duemellon]

When it comes to IT, you career is the field of IT, & will never be with a company. You have worked for the longest period of time I've ever heard in IT with the same company. 13 years? That's amazing. I've had 8-9 IT-related jobs since '93.

I think you should easier on those people you were "friends" with at work & such. Just like high school or a summer camp, the friendship existed in the confines of that environment. Even those you met outside, they still did so as an aspect of work. Not that you were management, or even someone to suck up to, but the 1st thing they thought of when it came to you was "work". When work was gone, they weren't comfortable stepping out of that "work" concept.

Thank you for the update.

Personally, I decided that I simply can't build a savings working in IT because every 2-3 years I'd have to spend a few months if not (at the worst of it) a year or so living off my savings. So I'm getting out of the field entirely. It seems a little late for me to do so, but I think it'd be worse if I realized this when I'm 60+ years old.

I'm glad it's working out for you. We're in some tough times for alot of people & you have an opportunity that is getting more rare each day.

[frizgolf]

Wow, I've never worked that long anywhere. It must be tough getting to know 'em all and have 'em desert you like that.
I guess that's one advantage of having had so many jobs. I can stay detached. Do just enough to get along during work hours, and be done with 'em.
Good luck in the new gig.

[markalot]

After 17 years at the same company a layoff was the best thing that ever happened to me. Better job, better people, more respect, more opportunities, and better pay.

Being layed off sucks though, glad you found a job!

[Arkansas]

I just got fucked. Lost my job 10 minutes ago. Does anybody know of anybody needing a textile designer/ graphic designer?



FUCK!

[Jumpman]

I just got fucked. Lost my job 10 minutes ago. Does anybody know of anybody needing a textile designer/ graphic designer?



FUCK!

Shit that sucks man. I'm sorry.

[berzerker]

I just got fucked. Lost my job 10 minutes ago. Does anybody know of anybody needing a textile designer/ graphic designer?



FUCK!

Damn, that sucks... start the new year with a giant suck. Sorry, man...

[berzerker]

My co-worker and friend from back in college (guess that makes it like 20 years...) got laid off. His dept that works on long-range programs (3-5 year fruition) got cut - I guess htey had spent almost 2 years funding it, and decided that was enough. I guess they kinda forgot that it's supposed to take 3-5 years... :mad:

And, they're supposed to make 12-15% more cuts, overall. :eek:

[Duemellon]

I just got fucked. Lost my job 10 minutes ago. Does anybody know of anybody needing a textile designer/ graphic designer?



FUCK!well damn.

[Artpunchehorse]

I won't get laid off, but selling advertising in this economy is horrible. Not a lot of commission this year:(

[silentpaul]

I just got fucked. Lost my job 10 minutes ago. Does anybody know of anybody needing a textile designer/ graphic designer?



FUCK!

I'm really sorry, Ark. Good luck out there.

[ThomasC]

I just got fucked. Lost my job 10 minutes ago. Does anybody know of anybody needing a textile designer/ graphic designer?



FUCK!
Very sorry to hear that, Arkansas. :( Good luck with the search.

[frizgolf]

Damn, Ark, didn't you just move not too long ago?

[Arkansas]

Damn, Ark, didn't you just move not too long ago?

Yep. I was kind of questioning the stability of the company when I came here 4 months ago. They assured me that things were going very well and sales were strong while waving that big paycheck in my face. Well, the sales have been fine. The parent company just gave up because they were having a hard time getting some financing. They just folded and decided to liquidate all of a sudden while in the middle of negotiations with vendors and banks.
It's like they didn't even want the company to succeed.

Thanks for all of the well wishes. You guys are cool..... now, does anybody want to pay my car payment?

[frizgolf]

Well, now that sucks.
I guess corporate America don't give no guarantees.

[Docta]

a neat marketing idea, hyundai will give you insurance, if you finance a car with them and lose your job this year you can return it to them

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2009/01/hyundais-econom.html

[frizgolf]

a neat marketing idea, hyundai will give you insurance, if you finance a car with them and lose your job this year you can return it to them

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2009/01/hyundais-econom.html

I saw those commercials. Hell of an idea.

[the happy prole]

Man, the economy is screwed big-time.

I think we're probably going to lay off 3-5 staff. Everyone's just looking at each other like "Well, I do X and Y. They can't lay me off because then how will we do those things?" Yeah well, the thing is we just won't do those things. It's not a matter of downsizing for efficiency, there is just no money.

All the fat has been trimmed so no one has a better case of staying on than anyone else. That includes myself. Ask ten different people in my agency who they'd lay off and you'd get ten different answers... so it's just a matter of sheer random chance who gets laid off. Or maybe more like chaos theory where someone at the top likes you ever so much slightly more than some other person/position for no particular reason.

Keep in mind, this is a government agency... so the private sector is likely to
be even less secure.

And the kicker is that my agency is nothing special. It's happening in every government agency. And I'm looking at the bills in the General Assembly and they are the most irrelevant and clueless bills I've ever seen. Someone wants to allow professors to have guns on campus. Several localities want new colleges/campuses. People want colleges to take more in-state students, or they want some new scholarship. Some colleges want football teams.

NONE OF THIS SHIT MATTERS WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT A $1.2 BILLION DEFICIT.

You have bigger things to worry about than your stupid political and/or pork. Even if you didn't, there's no money to do any of your suggestions anyway. Even if there were money to fund the project, there's no money to fund the staff to run the project. Even if there were money to fund the project, AND there were money to fund the staff THIS YEAR, there wouldn't be any money next year because the economy is getting worse and people are willfully ignorant/lying about how bad things are right now. So you're just going to pour money into a project that you can't complete.

The failure to face the situation at all levels of government-- from Bernanke down to your local city council-- is staggering. Not that it would matter much I guess, because it's well beyond their ability to do anything anyway.

In related news, I'm starting to suspect that Barack Obama may prove to be a staggeringly bad choice for President. Not because he's a bad guy, but because he fancies himself a problem solver. I have a feeling his attitude is like "No, we can fix anything if we just think smart, roll up our sleeves and get to work" when in fact the problem can't be fixed and we are better off simply bracing for impact. He may turn out to be a bigger gambler than McCain supposedly is.

[DaHood]

In related news, I'm starting to suspect that Barack Obama may prove to be a staggeringly bad choice for President. Not because he's a bad guy, but because he fancies himself a problem solver. I have a feeling his attitude is like "No, we can fix anything if we just think smart, roll up our sleeves and get to work"
Some of this is rhetoric but it's about restoring confidence in the American public. That is not necessarily bad. In fact this kind of leadership is important whether or not you agree with the policies which may or may not in fact be bad.

[classicgrrl]

Or Obama may turn out to be EXACTLY the president we need.

frankly, the US needs a good depression. lets face it our country has never had good discipline. the only time we ever get any is when we face a crisis.

I don't see the corproate sector doing what it needs to do either. wall street is still only worried about it's own pockets and it's business as usual meaning short term gain for long term loss.

there is absolute ZERO vision anywhere in the C suite ranks. which is how Madoff was able to do what he did. he got rich but so did an assload of other people and they ALL looked the other way. yahoo ran an article talking about how some of them may end up being forced to pay it back...

and look at our social services sector or lack thereoff - all this pissing and moaning from both sides about welfare fraud or people not wanting to work is simply double speak for "we don't want to pay for it" from a VERY greedy populace. our poverty rate, homeless rate, and crumbling school systems have been rising for years and no one has paid any attention.

the only way we are going to get ourselves out of this fucking mess is to learn to put people over profit. and the only thing that will force us to do that is some rich ass standing in a long bread line

[markalot]

Percentage wise we still aren't that bad. 2 years from now we'll be bemoaning how everything didn't change.

[Arkansas]

I don't know if this is the best place to advertise this but...

My wife and I are selling off some of our rare record's and cd's on ebay under the user name oshily.

We have some rarities by The Strokes(original UK release with NYC Cops on vinyl), 10,000 Maniacs, Belle and Sebastian(some 12" singles), Cocteau Twins(red vinyl christmas 45) and some Beck singles on vinyl.

We'll be putting some more on this coming weekend.

Sorry to post this here but I need some money.

[the happy prole]

the only way we are going to get ourselves out of this fucking mess is to learn to put people over profit. and the only thing that will force us to do that is some rich ass standing in a long bread line

I have yet to see Obama fail to help out the rich asses. He's giving them mad dollars under the assumption that their businesses are too important to fail.

It's like we think we can just plug a few cracks in a dam when in fact the whole dam is structurally unsound. What we need to do is just write off the dam, write off the villages downstream, brace ourselves for impending disaster and just evacuate as many people as we can.

It might seem like hey, we prop up a few key industries/companies and we can save the whole economy. But it's too late for that. The economy is going down and the money you give to GM/banks/etc. is just money flushed down the toilet.

It's time for economic triage. Help the people who can be helped and who need it the most. Let the companies fail and start investing in soup kitchens for the unemployed instead. It might drive people like nick mad, but I'd suggest that at least it's a smaller role for the government and one aimed at insuring a minimal set of living standards for the worst off. Which is better than trying to dictate the whole economy like we're doing now.

[frizgolf]

It's like we think we can just plug a few cracks in a dam when in fact the whole dam is structurally unsound. What we need to do is just write off the dam, write off the villages downstream, brace ourselves for impending disaster and just evacuate as many people as we can.

So many parallels to Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans in there...
You're right. This is an economic catastrophe along the lines of what happened to New Orleans physically. The best thing is to abandon the city, nuke the dykes, and let nature take the delta back over.

[miami2112]

the only way we are going to get ourselves out of this fucking mess is to learn to put people over profit. and the only thing that will force us to do that is some rich ass standing in a long bread line

you're talking about socialism there, arent you?

capitalism, built on greed, will never put people over profits.

in other news, school just announced a wage freeze for this year. yay.

[markalot]

There is some blend of capitalism and socialism that will work. We will swing over more toward the socialist side for a while but the inherent problems with socialism will crop up and we'll swing back again.

[the happy prole]

One could argue that what we're doing now and what we've been doing is far more socialistic (at least in some ways) than simply starting up huge welfare programs.

The government has been trying to actively manage and control the entire economy for quite a few years now.

[classicgrrl]

I never mentioned socialism - and in fact that isn't quite what I meant.

MAL hit it on the head = we need a combo of socialism and capitalism. and frankly, the government needs to conrol the social services sector which in my book includes education and health insurance.

it needs to stay completely away from the markets. the market will do what the market will do. but people need to have a net. let the market crash to the ground = meh.

let the people crash to the ground = ruination of society.

kind of like seperation of church and state. social services and the market need to be seperated. and kept that way.

[the happy prole]

See, I call that capitalism. If the government is not trying to control the means of production and does not have the goal of making everyone equal it's not socialism.

It's just totally stupid to me. A government intervention in the marketplace is against pure capitalism principles, sure. But that doesn't mean it's socialist. Socialism and capitalism are not even opposites, really. Like look at all the corrupt crony capitalist economies in say, Africa. The companies are private, but there is massive interference in the private sector. Not to make people equal, but to protect the rich.

To me, it's become a word that right wingers try to throw out there to end arguments. Like calling something "socialist" is supposed to be like, game over because I'm immediately supposed to be like "Gasp, NOOOOes! Socialism?!??" I just don't have the required knee-jerk emotional response they're looking for. And my failure to have it means of course that I must be socialist. Which only enrages them, and I could care less. It's a bad word to them, not to me.

The other thing is that Socialism is also equated with the government enforcing their own morals and "telling people what to do." Which is also supposed to obviously be totally evil. But you know, every protected freedom you have is the government enforcing morals and telling people what to do.

Do you have a problem with me buying a gun, shooting you, raping your wife and then taking all your property? Because you know, I might think that's totally cool but you don't and the government is sure as shit telling me I can't do that.

If your answer is "Well, I'll just buy a bigger gun" then that's cool, I guess. But then stop with all the "government needs to be tough on crime" bullshit. YOU need to be tough on crime. The government being tough on crime is by your definition, "socialist." And if you have no problem shooting me because my morals are different than yours and I'm trying to impose them on you, deal with your own hypocracy. From my standpoint I don't really care overly much whether you shoot me or some police guy shoots me. Either way I'm dead because I thought and acted differently than you'd like.

Providing a safety net is no more than a stance that says everyone is entitled to some basic level of living. It's not that everyone is equal, just that everyone has a minimal set of rights. It's no more socialist in principle than the government recognizing your right to property and protecting it with police and army via tax dollars.

I'm not saying anyone on this board feels that way at all. But we have sort of fallen into the trap of contrasting capitalism against socialism which I think is a totally fictional and intentionally divisive framework.

I think your stance and marklot's stance is perfectly reasonable in that some government dorking around in private actions against pure free market principles is probably necessary. But to say "We need a mixture of socialism and capitalism" to too many people it's like saying "We need a mixture of good and evil." They're like "Huh? What do want evil, that's crazy talk!"

So, I'm just tired of that whole schtick and try to stay away from those words. You want to talk economics and policy, let's talk economics and policy. You want to talk morality, let's talk morality. Totally different things.

Marx was concerned with the same basic moral goals Adam Smith was-- they just had different solutions. One or both might be totally wrong, but neither of them were evil. Marxism is not about government tyranny. The exact opposite. He wanted the means of production controlled by the PEOPLE and in fact he viewed this as a natural evolutionary outcome of an enlightened society. He was AGAINST active political intervention to bring about his ideal state. And Adam Smith was not about dog-eat-dog and culling out the weak, either. He had absolutely no problem with moral codes and telling people what to do. He just didn't think it was necessary for the government to do so because people are rational and will enforce upon others the right thing to do all by themselves via the free market.

[classicgrrl]

I don't give two shits about morals. but can you imagine what we would be like as a society if children had rights? a right to healthcare, a right to be educated to a certain degree, or a right to be safe?

THATS putting people above profits. and we won't do it. we value money above people.

it's disgusting.

[the happy prole]

I wasn't implying that you didn't care about the poor. I was trying to say that it's the big government solution as an attempt to fix it that would make you mad. And I wasn't even arguing with you about it. Just making a statement that as far as I can tell, it'd be totally anathema to your economic views.

Also, I'm still not forecasting a complete meltdown of US and international finances and a horrific depression like you have been. I just think it's going to be a pretty long and somewhat bad recession. I think I've been making Japan comparisons for quite awhile and I'm sticking to that.

If I thought things were really that bad, it would pointless to even try to go funding soup kitchens or anything at all. I figure if shit's going to hit the fan like that we might as well just toss out the government by any means necessary and start the revolution now.

But oh, okay. Government sopu kitchens don't make you mad, just disgusted. I guess I totally misread you. My bad.:rolleyes:

[frizgolf]

Also, I'm still not forecasting a complete meltdown of US and international finances and a horrific depression like you have been. I just think it's going to be a pretty long and somewhat bad recession. I think I've been making Japan comparisons for quite awhile and I'm sticking to that.

My completely conservative pro-business co-worker has been making the Japan comparison as well.
It's gonna be a long, slow climb back. This is the beginning of the end of American world market dominance.

[Duemellon]

This is the beginning of the end of American world market dominance.I think you probably meant this is the pain we've been delaying since we lost worldwide market dominance.

We stopped being The Shit in the early 80's, we just ignored the memo.

[frizgolf]

We stopped being The Shit in the early 80's, we just ignored the memo.

Yep. That recession in 81-82 was the first sign. (Or was it the oil crisis in the 70s?) The unlimited credit since was a means to cushion the impact we should have taken then. We wouldn't have McMansionburbs in the sticks with overextended water/sewage/electrical infrastructure. Folks would have rehabbed older homes in city cores without audacious credit limits. They'd be riding mass transit instead of oversized 4WD cocoons. We'd have repaired the crumbling inner-city infrastructure by now.
It's gonna be a bigger hit now, but we f*ckin' need it.

[markalot]

Yea, our dominance is over, that's why when we go down the entire world is fucked.

Oh, and I have a new name for our little economy, lets call it ...

Compassionate Capitalism.

:rolleyes:

[Duemellon]

Yea, our dominance is over, that's why when we go down the entire world is fucked.No. The entire world isn't fucked. Only those powers who emulated us. If you note: Those that emulated us the closest & based their economy more directly on us are experiencing the most similar effects. The further away from us? The less it changes for them.

China? France? compared to England & Japan?

exactly.

[markalot]

What?

Who is not hurting right now?

[Duemellon]

What?

Who is not hurting right now?Who's not hurting as much right now?

China, France, & such.

Japan was not the world's #1 economy in the late 80's early 90's yet their pain hurt the world. When a major player implodes it causes problems for the globe.

Now Iceland, England, & Japan are fucked. Mexico? They're fucked, but not as bad. So yah, while our markets are tumbling their markets are merely stumbling.