Bystanders Ignore Hit-and-Run Victim

[PeterABnny]

Bystanders Ignore Hit-and-Run Victim

By STEPHEN SINGER,AP

Posted: 2008-06-06 07:09:34
Filed Under: Nation News

HARTFORD, Conn. (June 5) - A 78-year-old man is tossed like a rag doll by a hit-and-run driver and lies motionless on a busy city street as car after car goes by. Pedestrians gawk but do nothing. One driver stops briefly but then pulls back into traffic. A man on a scooter slowly circles the victim before zipping away.

The chilling scene - captured on video by a streetlight surveillance camera - has touched off a round of soul-searching in Hartford, with the capital city's biggest newspaper blaring "SO INHUMANE" on the front page and the police chief lamenting: "We no longer have a moral compass."

"We have no regard for each other," said Chief Daryl Roberts, who released the video this week in hopes of making an arrest in the daylight accident last Friday that left Angel Arce Torres in critical condition.

The hit-and-run took place about 5:45 p.m. in a working-class neighborhood close to downtown in this city of 125,000.

In the video, Torres walks in the two-way street just blocks from the state Capitol after buying milk at a grocery. A tan Toyota and a dark Honda that is apparently chasing it cross the center line, and Torres is struck by the Honda. Both cars then dart down a side street.

Several cars pass Torres as a few people stare from the sidewalk. Some approach Torres, but most stay put until a police cruiser responding to an unrelated call arrives on the scene after about a minute and a half.

The police chief told The Hartford Courant that he was unsure whether anyone called 911.

"Like a dog they left him there," said a disgusted Jose Cordero, 37, who was with friends Thursday not far from where Torres was struck. Robert Luna, who works at a store nearby, said: "Nobody did nothing."

One witness, Bryant Hayre, told the Courant he didn't feel comfortable helping Torres, who he said was bleeding and conscious.

The accident - and bystanders' callousness - dominated morning radio talk shows.

"It was one of the most despicable things I've seen by one human being to another," the Rev. Henry Brown, a community activist, said in an interview. "I don't understand the mind-set anymore. It's kind of mind-boggling. We're supposed to help each other. You see somebody fall, you want to offer a helping hand."

The victim's son, Angel Arce, begged the public for help in finding the driver. "My father is fighting for his life," he said.

The hit-and-run is the second violent crime to shock Hartford this week. On Monday, former Deputy Mayor Nicholas Carbone, 71, was beaten and robbed while walking to breakfast. He remains hospitalized and faces brain surgery.

"There was a time they would have helped that man across the street. Now they mug and assault him," police chief said. "Anything goes."

Councilman Matthew Ritter said police can do only so much.

"The citizens are the city," he said. "Everybody has a part to play. Call 911 and reach out."


Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
2008-06-05 16:57:47




They talked about this on GMA this morning. Apparently, this area is notorious for citizen amnesia whenever a crime happens, so something like this is almost par for the course. IMO is this is your attitude you deserve whatever war-zone hellhole of a neighborhood you get as a result.

[markalot]

Probably because they didn't want to be suspect / blamed for it. In this day of trial lawyers and bogus law suits I can completely understand.

[Breeze]

Probably because they didn't want to be suspect / blamed for it. In this day of trial lawyers and bogus law suits I can completely understand.

I'm glad I don't live near you.

[the_birds]

Unfortunately, I saw this "news incident." Of course, my friend was watching the 'morality compass' that is Fox news.

Nobody needed to stop. There were umpteen bystanders that I'm sure called 911 or whatever.

Besides, it was clear it was the pedestrian's fault. He deserved to wait a few extra seconds for help. Next time, he might use that few extra seconds to think/look/run faster/walk to the crosswalk/not eat that extra cookie to help him get across the street without getting hit.

[jcarwash31]

Probably because they didn't want to be suspect / blamed for it. In this day of trial lawyers and bogus law suits I can completely understand.
Yes, a bunch of pedestrians didn't help because they were afraid of being accused of hitting him with a car. :rolleyes:

[Breeze]

Unfortunately, I saw this "news incident." Of course, my friend was watching the 'morality compass' that is Fox news.

Nobody needed to stop. There were umpteen bystanders that I'm sure called 911 or whatever.

Besides, it was clear it was the pedestrian's fault. He deserved to wait a few extra seconds for help. Next time, he might use that few extra seconds to think/look/run faster/walk to the crosswalk/not eat that extra cookie to help him get across the street without getting hit.

I'm glad I don't live near you, either.

[markalot]

So you think it's far fetched to wonder if someone had helped him or moved him and it ended up doing more harm they would not be sued? Someone would not say they should have known better?

It all comes down to a 911 call.

The police chief told The Hartford Courant that he was unsure whether anyone called 911.

"Like a dog they left him there," said a disgusted Jose Cordero, 37, who was with friends Thursday not far from where Torres was struck. Robert Luna, who works at a store nearby, said: "Nobody did nothing."

I assume Jose called 911?

[the_birds]

I'm glad I don't live near you, either.

That's right, because I live just off of Westhiemer which is 8 lanes wide. So get your ass in gear if you want to cross, or we'll do a Frogger on your ass! ;)


ETA: for emphasis!

[markalot]

Yes, a bunch of pedestrians didn't help because they were afraid of being accused of hitting him with a car. :rolleyes:

What should they have done? I explained as much in my next post, I forgot many of you don't have the ability to reason. You move someone with a broken spine they might be paralyzed for life, and you better believe you'll be sued and the reason will be YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.

[jcarwash31]

So you think it's far fetched to wonder if someone had helped him or moved him and it ended up doing more harm they would not be sued? Someone would not say they should have known better?

It all comes down to a 911 call.
You call 911 and wait with the victim and maybe help to keep someone else from hitting him since he seemed to be lying on a busy street. Not that hard of a concept.



I assume Jose called 911?
The article did not say anything about whether or not he witnessed the incident.

[Foofur]

Unfortunately, I saw this "news incident." Of course, my friend was watching the 'morality compass' that is Fox news.

Nobody needed to stop. There were umpteen bystanders that I'm sure called 911 or whatever.

Besides, it was clear it was the pedestrian's fault. He deserved to wait a few extra seconds for help. Next time, he might use that few extra seconds to think/look/run faster/walk to the crosswalk/not eat that extra cookie to help him get across the street without getting hit.

HUH? Did you watch the video. The two cars were LEFT OF CENTER and obviously speeding. Something else must have been going on prior to that, whether the drivers were chasing each other or racing or pulled off some other crime. Regardless it took over a minute before anyone called 911. The guy is lucky to be alive.

[jcarwash31]

HUH? Did you watch the video.
Or read the article?


In the video, Torres walks in the two-way street just blocks from the state Capitol after buying milk at a grocery. A tan Toyota and a dark Honda that is apparently chasing it cross the center line, and Torres is struck by the Honda. Both cars then dart down a side street.


There were umpteen bystanders that I'm sure called 911 or whatever.

This is why nobody helps.

[Foofur]

What should they have done? I explained as much in my next post, I forgot many of you don't have the ability to reason. You move someone with a broken spine they might be paralyzed for life, and you better believe you'll be sued and the reason will be YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.

Somebody with common sense can at least block traffic or notify someone to call 911. If you just witnessed that accident I would think you'd have a pretty good idea NOT to move the person as that vehicle just mowed him down. You'd be pretty confident that the person had broken bones, etc. There are Good Samaritan Laws that prevent victims from suing as long as you act within the realm of your training.

[juggles]

This is a good example of what's known as "diffusion of responsibility." Basically, people feel less responsible for looking out for each other the more people are around. That is, if there are two people on the street and one falls down and says "help me," odds are pretty good that the other person will stop and help since there is no one else there to do it. If there are 100 people on the street and one falls down, the other 99 can assume that it's someone else's problem or responsibility. It's a well documented phenomenon.

Editted to add: link to the wiki page -- diffusion of responsibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility)

[jcarwash31]

What should they have done? I explained as much in my next post, I forgot many of you don't have the ability to reason. You move someone with a broken spine they might be paralyzed for life, and you better believe you'll be sued and the reason will be YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
I addressed this in my post right after this post of yours, but I will say that you seem to be the one that has the difficulty with reason. Your first thoughts seemed to be don't get sued and call 911, but I'm not really sure which one came first. You can help people without touching or moving them. Like I and Foofur said, you make sure someone calls 911, you block traffic so he doesn't get hit again, and you wait for emergency services to arrive. You could even talk to him if he's conscious and at least try to comfort him. Now tell me who is going to sue me for that, because apparently that's all I should be thinking about.

[Duemellon]

Ignore him? It's not about the humanity, it's about conformity & who will do what 1st. Either everyone was expecting "someone else" to have done/to do something about it, or they were thinking "since no one else has" then there must be something wrong with helping.

I do believe it was a Milgram experiement where someone in a crowd had something bad happen & when the crowd (except for the subjects) were told to not react, the subjects hesitated or didn't act. Only when someone in the crowd was specifically instructed to assist did the subjects begin to help consistently.

[Breeze]

You move someone with a broken spine they might be paralyzed for life, and you better believe you'll be sued and the reason will be YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.


You can help people without touching or moving them. Like I and Foofur said, you make sure someone calls 911, you block traffic so he doesn't get hit again, and you wait for emergency services to arrive. You could even talk to him if he's conscious and at least try to comfort him.

Now I'm doubly glad I don't live near MaL. He'd be afraid to help... and I'd be afraid of his incompetence if he did.

[the_birds]

The two cars were LEFT OF CENTER and obviously speeding. Something else must have been going on prior to that, whether the drivers were chasing each other or racing or pulled off some other crime.

Yep, I agree.

I was by no means trying to defend the drivers, but the person crossing is truly the one responsible for being careful crossing a street. And even if your careful, you can be hit. It looks like a highly urbanized area and you want to cross at a crosswalk. The pedestrian is totally guilty too.


Regardless it took over a minute before anyone called 911. The guy is lucky to be alive.

I don't necessarily blame anyone for not stopping, but not dialing 3 numbers on your cellphone is shameful. I have called 911 myself numerous times on the behalf of others and I was never the first one. That is the law.

On Fox News, they didn't even tell you that it took over 1 minute for anyone to call 911 and that's the real shameful thing. Some news.

[Duemellon]

Now I'm doubly glad I don't live near MaL. He'd be afraid to help... and I'd be afraid of his incompetence if he did.There are times when you feel compelled to do something. Even though it may be selfishly (ego) motivated, to have done anything will bring some insecurities or guilt.

There are times when the "right" thing to do is too important to care about how you look, feel, how vulnerable it makes you, or what you risk... you just must do it.

[markalot]

I don't necessarily blame anyone for not stopping, but not dialing 3 numbers on your cellphone is shameful.

I agree. At what point did I not agree with this? I only said I don't know when or who called 911. I would have called 911 and blocked traffic, maybe, unless I was worried about getting hit.

[Breeze]

I agree. At what point did I not agree with this? I only said I don't know when or who called 911. I would have called 911 and blocked traffic, maybe, unless I was worried about getting hit.

That, friends and neighbors, is what's known as
http://www.fstdt.com/winace/pics/backpedaling.gif

[Chespo]

Now I'm doubly glad I don't live near MaL. He'd be afraid to help... and I'd be afraid of his incompetence if he did.I don't perceive that MAL's implicitly saying he wouldn't act in the same situation; he's just stating his first plausible explanation for why people didn't help. I'm inclined to agree; whatever other (probably dubious and shameful) reasons that people had to not get personally involved, "don't move him!" is very engrained in our consciousness now. Fear of lawsuits aside, the emergency response establishment has made it very clear that movement of the injured should be left to them. In addition, it's also my understanding that police would rather have a crime scene left in its original state until they can examine it (although that's probably mitigated by the fact that a camera was trained on the scene). The bystanders could certainly have had more humanity and compassion about the situation, but I think MAL's conclusions are valid.

Ultimately, we're just a fearful and disconnected society who've forgotten how to relate to strangers as human beings.

[markalot]

That's cute (Breeze post). Care to explain?

It all comes down to a 911 call. Someone said that, not sure who. Someone also quoted someone who claimed they didn't know if/when/who/how many called 911.


The police chief told The Hartford Courant that he was unsure whether anyone called 911.

[Breeze]

That's cute (Breeze post). Care to explain?

Why--do you lack the ability to reason?

[Christian]

As far as I am concerned, the only issue is what kind of car they were driving.

[Breeze]

As far as I am concerned, the only issue is what kind of car they were driving.
And we have a winner!

[berzerker]

As someone who recently took CPR / First Aid training, I know a thing or on the subject...

This wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_samaritan_law) seems a bit vague, and not US specific - but if you are unrelated to the person nor responsible for the injury, you are not obliged to give physical assistance. That's not the case in 2 states, but being considered in other states.
But, in essence if someone tries to help someone injured, in most places people (excluding medical professionals) are protected from prosecution.

[tempo]

OK...

Those of us who live in an urban environment with a street population are probably used to seeing people of all ages laying on the pavement.

To me the question is, did anybody see the guy get hit by the car? If not, then they may have just assumed it was a drunk laying in the street.

If I saw him, I would have been worried about anybody laying that close to traffic because drivers might not be able to see him. I don't think I'm so jaded that I would ignore that situation.

[Breeze]

OK...

Those of us who live in an urban environment with a street population are probably used to seeing people of all ages laying on the pavement.

To me the question is, did anybody see the guy get hit by the car? If not, then they may have just assumed it was a drunk laying in the street.

If I saw him, I would have been worried about anybody laying that close to traffic because drivers might not be able to see him. I don't think I'm so jaded that I would ignore that situation.

Most, if not all, of those questions are answered by watching the video (http://www.hartford.gov/Police/Video/35%20Park%20St.%205-30-08.wmv).

[epeolatry]

Yes, a bunch of pedestrians didn't help because they were afraid of being accused of hitting him with a car. :rolleyes:

you know what i like about you? you make sense.

seriously, this is sad. someone could have at least gone over to the guy to see if he was conscious....and said HELP IS ON THE WAY or some shit as they dialed 911.

[tempo]

Most, if not all, of those questions are answered by watching the video (http://www.hartford.gov/Police/Video/35%20Park%20St.%205-30-08.wmv).

I can't seem to get the link to work. I only had one question, though. Did anybody see him get hit by the car? I saw a little bit of the video on TV, and it seemed to happen pretty fast.

[the happy prole]

What should they have done? I explained as much in my next post, I forgot many of you don't have the ability to reason. You move someone with a broken spine they might be paralyzed for life, and you better believe you'll be sued and the reason will be YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.

That's the most bizarre logic I've ever heard.

I'm sure some people thought "I'm not sure I should move that guy, it might make it worse." But that has nothing to do with lawsuits, that's just trying to do the right thing based on limited medical knowledge.

Who would take the extra step and go "But I'd love to fuck him up anyway, if it weren't for the law suits?"

[Breeze]

I can't seem to get the link to work. I only had one question, though. Did anybody see him get hit by the car? I saw a little bit of the video on TV, and it seemed to happen pretty fast.

Yeah, I can't get it to work now either. But it sure looked to me like several people on the sidewalk saw the guy get hit. There wasn't any chance that they thought it was a drunk passed out in the street.

This link (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=5015458&page=1) might work better.

[markalot]

That's the most bizarre logic I've ever heard.

I'm sure some people thought "I'm not sure I should move that guy, it might make it worse." But that has nothing to do with lawsuits, that's just trying to do the right thing based on limited medical knowledge.

Who would take the extra step and go "But I'd love to fuck him up anyway, if it weren't for the law suits?"

What are we talking about then. We have no idea how many people called 911, we think it might have been nice if someone stopped traffic, we have also determined that you can't be sued if you behaved in a certain way (which means there is something contestable).

You get involved then someone gets your name. You make a simple mistake, like maybe thinking moving the guys head out of traffic is a good idea, woops, shit, shouldn't have done that ....

It's easier to just walk away.

Have we determined how many people called 911?

[tempo]

Okay, found the video on YouTube. I don't see the moral emptiness everybody is talking about. It's true that somebody should have rushed out and stopped traffic right away, and you can see at least two people who just shrug it off and walk away.

BUT the oncoming traffic stopped immediately, and the people who walked up to the guy could see that it had stopped. Within 60 seconds, there was a crowd of concerned people.

I agree with the earlier posts that it all comes down to whether somebody called 911 or sent for help.

[Breeze]

I don't see the moral emptiness everybody is talking about. It's true that somebody should have rushed out and stopped traffic right away, and you can see at least two people who just shrug it off and walk away.
Aren't those two things examples of the moral emptiness you say you don't see?

BUT the oncoming traffic stopped immediately, and the people who walked up to the guy could see that it had stopped. Within 60 seconds, there was a crowd of concerned people.

Actually, traffic didn't stop immediately. At least six vehicles passed the man lying on the pavement without stopping.

[markalot]

I have to think most people read the article but did not watch the video.

Everyone on the street after the accident is on the phone. A car slows down, someone says something, they drive on. Maybe they said hey, did someone call 911, holy shit, is that guy dead?

A scooter stops, talks to someone standing near the man (so much for people walking away), then turns around and drives in the opposite direction out of camera view. Why did he turn around?

This is all bogus outrage.

Do we know how many people called 911?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=JuxGh5axb2k

[Predot listener]

Okay, found the video on YouTube. I don't see the moral emptiness everybody is talking about. It's true that somebody should have rushed out and stopped traffic right away, and you can see at least two people who just shrug it off and walk away.


Damn, Tempo, even MAL wouldn't want to live near you (Edit, maybe I'm wrong).

About the most you can say about the citizenry there is that at least the motorcyclist was considerate enough not to drive over the guy's hat.

How anyone can watch the video and not be a little bit disturbed by the failure of anyone to do anything is remarkable. Our responsibility to our fellow man doesn't end with a phone call.

[the happy prole]

I just think its a combination of the things people already mentioned: learned helplessness, panic mental shutdown, etc.

You see it happen, your mind's like "whoa!" Then you don't know what you should do so you're just hoping that someone else will take charge. And you're thinking "Someone must have called 911, do I need to call them again or does that just tie up the lines?"

Basically, it's form of panic.

[tempo]

Aren't those two things examples of the moral emptiness you say you don't see?

Actually, traffic didn't stop immediately. At least six vehicles passed the man lying on the pavement without stopping.

Yeah, I was trying to say that some people obviously wanted to keep walking, but several people stopped and showed their concern.

The traffic in the lane the guy was lying in stopped. The people going in the other direction obviously didn't see it as their problem. I agree that does show a lot of callousness.

[tempo]

Damn, Tempo, even MAL wouldn't want to live near you (Edit, maybe I'm wrong).

About the most you can say about the citizenry there is that at least the motorcyclist was considerate enough not to drive over the guy's hat.

Okay, that made me laugh out loud. The levity is appreciated. :D

How anyone can watch the video and not be a little bit disturbed by the failure of anyone to do anything is remarkable. Our responsibility to our fellow man doesn't end with a phone call.

Good heavens, let's give people the benefit of the doubt. We only saw about 90 seconds of action after the accident. It's impossible to see whether they were urgently seeking help or not.

I agree that you shouldn't just call 911 and waltz off. The people gathered around the guy hadn't abandoned him by the time the video ended, so why do we assume the worst about them?

[Buzzstein]

I don't know, we have no idea what those people were saying to each other or if anyone called 911 or how long it took to do so. Was the guy bleeding? It's not like they just totally ignored him. A few were standing out in the street with him. I don't have enough information to be disturbed.

[juggles]

My point from the start is that I think this is not about morality but about sociology. I haven't watched the video but nothing about the story surprises me. This reaction is entirely predictable and I would bet the mortgage that you could take the same people and put them in a different situation and they would behave differently.

The more interesting question to me is how can you to get people to behave differently in a similar situation? From my personal experience, awareness of diffusion of responsibility helps. For example, after witnessing an accident last summer, I realized that everyone else was waiting for someone to doing something, so I got out and directed traffic around the disabled cars. Soon, other people stepped up to help as well. But we have to recognize that we're all vulnerable to the same herd thinking.

[jcarwash31]

I have to think most people read the article but did not watch the video.

Everyone on the street after the accident is on the phone. A car slows down, someone says something, they drive on. Maybe they said hey, did someone call 911, holy shit, is that guy dead?

A scooter stops, talks to someone standing near the man (so much for people walking away), then turns around and drives in the opposite direction out of camera view. Why did he turn around?

This is all bogus outrage.

Do we know how many people called 911?


http://youtube.com/watch?v=JuxGh5axb2k
How can you tell that everyone on the street was on the phone from that video? And how do you know they weren't already on the phone? With a group of that many people anywhere, there will be a number of people on their phone.

It's true that we don't know what they are saying. A couple of them may have tried to talk to him towards the end of the video, maybe, it looked more like they might as well have been poking him with a stick. A number of people could have asked if anyone called 911, I would hope they did. It's hard to say that nobody did anything, but it's still a bit disturbing that nobody rushed to him. That was a long time to be lying there lifeless by himself after being mowed down by a car. Somebody should have gotten there quicker. That one woman took a few steps into the street before turning around. And traffic never stopped until the cop got there. One van stopped so he could turn around. That was classy.

We do not seem to know how many people called 911, but somebody has to do better than just calling 911, even if it is checking for signs of life from closer than 3 feet away.

I'm sure they were all concerned about being sued though, so that's understandable. :rolleyes:

[geoboy]

Could they be sued for not helping?

[purple_octopus]

It looks like a cruiser pulled up a minute and ten seconds after the guy gets hit. And it was only ~10 seconds before he started drawing a crowd, and 30 seconds before that crowd was surrounding him. I'd say that's a pretty decent response. And the guy looked pretty fucked up. I doubt any of the people standing around him were trained medical professionals, so it's probably best that they didn't touch him. Honestly, I wouldn't have offered any more help than dialing 911. I've been through medic first aid training (probably so long ago that I've forgotten half - which is an even better reason to leave it to the pros), but I'm way too afraid of coming in contact with the bodily fluids of strangers. I would only physically help family or friends that I care about. (And I also have no expectations of strangers to do anything more for me than I would do for them.)

And so what, not everybody stopped. I think it was safe for passers by to assume that the hovering crowd had it covered and professional help was on the way.

[Kruschev]

I thought the whole incident went like 10 minutes before real help arrived. The scene doesn't surprise me, it would have been awesome if a few people at least stopped traffic, but I don't have much faith in people.

[purple_octopus]

I thought the whole incident went like 10 minutes before real help arrived. The scene doesn't surprise me, it would have been awesome if a few people at least stopped traffic, but I don't have much faith in people.

Actually, jumping out into the road the stop traffic might have not been the greatest idea. It's sort of like when people jump in a river after someone who falls in. Then the rescue team has to risk more if its members to save them... or the dive team has two bodies to recover instead of one.

[the happy prole]

The traffic in the lane the guy was lying in stopped. The people going in the other direction obviously didn't see it as their problem. I agree that does show a lot of callousness.

Honestly, if I was in the other lane I would have kept on driving myself. I don't see how stopping the car helps. It just stops another lane of traffic making it harder for the ambulance to get there and creates a potential for more accidents. I think the smart thing to do is drive until you can pull over on a side street and call 911. I'm almost 100% sure I would have done that.

And if I'm on the street, I know for sure I wouldn't call 911. When I use the cell phone on the street, I have to put it on speaker just to hear anything. It annoys my friends whenever I borrow their phone. I don't know why, I just can't hear crap on them. So it doesn't seem like me calling up 911 and tying up their lines going "WHAT?? WHAT??" is helping matters. I would probably yell at someone else to call 911 though. I'm pretty sure I would step in the street to try and prevent the guy from getting hit again, though.

It was what-- 1 minute or so until someone dialled 911? In all the confusion, I don't really think its that bad. To me, it's more about people not knowing what to do in that situation than people being uncaring.

[purple_octopus]

It was what-- 1 minute or so until someone dialled 911? In all the confusion, I don't really think its that bad. To me, it's more about people not knowing what to do in that situation than people being uncaring.
Really, it was just over a minute from the time of the hit to the arrival of police. Depending on where the cop was coming from, someone almost had to call 911 within 30 seconds of the accident. Shit, it would take me 15 seconds to dig my phone out of my purse.

[the happy prole]

I think they were saying the police car just happened to be going through, it wasn't responding to a call about the accident.

But the city is now saying they got four 911 calls within a minute. I don't know how accurately they can really say that because maybe the security camera was off compared to the 911 switchboard or something.

But they can at least confirm they got called. And it stands to reason that if they got the calls, they happened before the cops got there. No reason to dial 911 after the cops are already on the scene.

[tempo]

But the city is now saying they got four 911 calls within a minute.

There you go, haters. :p Can we restore our faith in humanity and get on with our lives? :rolleyes:

[Kruschev]

Actually, jumping out into the road the stop traffic might have not been the greatest idea. It's sort of like when people jump in a river after someone who falls in. Then the rescue team has to risk more if its members to save them... or the dive team has two bodies to recover instead of one.

If it was an interstate, then yah, but traffic was moving slow enough for people to effectively do it. But I think I agree with HP on this one, it's more about people unsure how to respond.

[tempo]

Honestly, if I was in the other lane I would have kept on driving myself. I don't see how stopping the car helps. It just stops another lane of traffic making it harder for the ambulance to get there and creates a potential for more accidents. I think the smart thing to do is drive until you can pull over on a side street and call 911. I'm almost 100% sure I would have done that.

Your'e right, this is a reasonable response. Stopping would be a reasonable response, too. Really any sincere effort to help is reasonable.

it's more about people unsure how to respond.

Yep, fair enough.

[Sushi]

BUT the oncoming traffic stopped immediately, and the people who walked up to the guy could see that it had stopped. Within 60 seconds, there was a crowd of concerned people.

A crowd gathers fairly quickly. Whether or not they're concerned is open to debate, since none of them seem inclined to bend down and see if the guy is okay or to make an effort to stop traffic in the lane where the guy is lying.

Re: the diffusion of responsibility. One of the things they teach you in CPR/first aid training is that before you start administering CPR or doing anything, you look directly at and point to one individual and say, "You--please call 911 now." You hand the responsibility to an individual. And then you provide whatever care you are trained to give. In this case, all someone had to do was 1) made sure that someone called 911 and 2) crouch beside him to hold his hand and tell him help was on the way.

[purple_octopus]

If it was an interstate, then yah, but traffic was moving slow enough for people to effectively do it.
I'm sure that's what the guy thought when he was crossing the street...

[Frost]

FAIL.

Total fail. It was just after work - 5:49. It wasn't raining. It was sunny. It looks like the weather was a complete non factor. The 911 calls are nice, but ffs, you saw the guy get hit, go over there and just gently put your hand on him, or at least just kneel beside the guy and tell him it will be okay. Fucks.

And before you give me the "what would you do in this situation" lecture, I've been in it twice. The first time I was getting off the Lateral on Paddock road (Most of you guys should know around where that is). Just to the south, past the underpass, I could see an accident had happened. Two cars. There wasn't much other traffic around - it was daytime, and I think a weekend.

I make a left, pull my car right next to the scene and jump out. One girl is crying and dizzy, walking around - one other person is there telling her to sit down and not to move. This was in like 1989-1991, so forgive me for not recalling all the details. Her friend was in the back seat, bleeding from the head, not moving, but not looking severely injured either. It wasn't cold outside, but all I could think to do was take off my coat and offer it to the lady who was now sitting down. Before anything else could happen, up roars a fire engine.

The whole thing lasted less time than this video - probably about 60 seconds from the time I saw the accident scene.

The most recent thing happened last year, I think around this time actually. An accident happened at an intersection literally as I was walking into the building at my job. All I hear is a crash, then screaming. I yelled to the receptionist to call 911 immediately, and ran out to the scene. Even though there's never any foot traffic near there, 4 or 6 people from nearby businesses or something were there too, and some people had gotten out of their cars.

A woman had charged the intersection and flipped her SUV. She was WAILING, I'll never forget it. She was upside-down, trapped inside. Her driver's window was either down or broken out. More people came. Me and 2 other random guys looked in the back seat and spotted a child seat - oh shit. But the woman calmed down enough to say there was no baby in it - (turns out she had just come from the day care) - but she was bleeding - upside down, blood was dripping onto the ceiling of her suv, and she was shaking and asking for help. We knew 911 had been called - one dude wanted to try to cut the seat belt or try to force her out of there, but there's a fire station nearby, and we knew they'd be there. We comforted her. We told her help was on the way. We told her she was okay, that we would stay right here with her. We told her we were there and reassured her.

That's all you need to do, for god's sake. When someone is hurt, has been in an accident, they're confused, scared. They want their mommy. Show the fuck up, and try to comfort them until help arrives. You don't have to do a damn thing but get close to them. I can't even bend down like a catcher for 5 seconds before I lose circulation, but I bent down in front of this overturned SUV and talked to this woman in calm tones, just trying to reassure her that help was on the way and that we were here and cared about her.

FFS, all they had to do was go out there and make sure the guy didn't get run over - stop traffic like it was your momma laying there. Kneel next to him and talk to him. Even if he's just barely conscious, talk to him. People's loved ones talk to them when they're in a coma, for goodness sake. And it was an old man - it's not like somebody should have been seriously worried that the guy was involved in some kind of nefarious activity.

But this is an outlier. This is a rare combination of factors that made nobody get down there and show the man some care. Frustrating and annoying, but I don't think this is representative of how most people act. At least I hope to god not, because I certainly never thought anything I did was out of the ordinary.

Fucks.

Edited to finish - Oh - and sorry to have left you hanging. After the fire truck rolled up in the first scene, I left. Pretty shaken up.

In the second one, the fire truck pulled up, the firefighters analyzed the scene for about 30 seconds, asked if there was a baby in there (we said no, thank god), and they cut her out of her seat belt and helped her out of the car, and she stood up, and we applauded and went back inside. And thank god she was okay, because I can still hear that wailing today. You know that ultimate suffering sound from the princess bride? Well this wasn't that bad, but it was still pretty spine tingling. It's a sound that is just pure pain and fear. Thank god that woman was okay.

[frizgolf]

Okay, I just now had a chance to see the longer of the videos.
One dude stops and says something to a driver passing by, who drives off. The guy crosses the street seemingly off to his business at hand. A bike comes back around, then drives off in the opposite direction. The old man's lying in the street with gawkers on the curb who won't go near him. The only thing to approach the old guy is the cop car.
I agree with Frost.
Fucks, the lot of 'em.

[Kruschev]

I'm sure that's what the guy thought when he was crossing the street...

Yah, I love jaywalking. Now I might need to consider always keeping my eye on the traffic, least some asshat in a fancy sportscar waltz all over me. And how quick they departed the scene. I really hope these jerkoffs get caught. Everyone's talking about the people that didn't do anything, what about the people that did do something, the ones who initiated the incident. That is much more appalling then the lack of sympathy for the injured man. To hit somebody and then speed off, if they're caught I hope they get a lengthy prison stay.

[purple_octopus]

Yah, I love jaywalking. Now I might need to consider always keeping my eye on the traffic, least some asshat in a fancy sportscar waltz all over me. And how quick they departed the scene. I really hope these jerkoffs get caught. Everyone's talking about the people that didn't do anything, what about the people that did do something, the ones who initiated the incident. That is much more appalling then the lack of sympathy for the injured man. To hit somebody and then speed off, if they're caught I hope they get a lengthy prison stay.
I agree completely. That fucker should have his dick chopped off, be fucked in the ass with his own dick, and then hanged to death. That guy is true scum.

But the other people - seriously, I wouldn't have gone out into the street. If he bounced off the car into the sidewalk, then sure. But as it was, I would have called 911, and that's it. But then, I've already been hit by a car once (a Dodge Ram actually, going about 55 mph). So I'm not about to skip off into traffic. (And I also noticed the guy was jaywalking, which makes me just slightly less empathetic than I otherwise would have been had he been crossing legally.)

[frizgolf]

I'd bet the guy jaywalked all the time, and that was one of his regular crossing spots. I do it all the time, and even got a stern lecturing from a smallish prick county sheriff once for doing it. There are times that crossing when traffic is low or in between intersections can be safer than taking your life in your hands in the crosswalk when cell-phone distracted idiots behind the wheel are thinking only of "their" green light.
It seems that guy got comfortable looking one way when traffic stopped at the intersection to his left, and could always count on being able to walk between stopped cars on the other side of the yellow line. This was one day he didn't look both ways, counting on the yellow line as his daily ally. Freak thing, this. Let's hope they can identify the road-ragers who should really be the focus of the discussion around this video.

[markalot]

Should I pull out some pictures of protesting muslims and point out how they are all fucked up? A picture is worth a thousand words, right? Maybe a video is worth more.

How can you tell that everyone on the street was on the phone from that video? And how do you know they weren't already on the phone? With a group of that many people anywhere, there will be a number of people on their phone.


I see a lot of hands near ears. Maybe there was an insect attack or something.

But the city is now saying they got four 911 calls within a minute.

Ok then, all that's left is Frosty showing some indignation because they didn't do what he did. You're a true hero Frost, always know what to do. For our sake I hope you're in education so we can learn from ya. :)

[Frost]

The whole point is how non-heroic I was and am and how it doesn't take any superhuman effort. Just your presence and the sound of your voice. Anyway, I think it's time I take my sabbatical, until I lose the bet with classicgirl or around this time next year. Cheers all! See you in 09. PM me if ya need me :P

[miami2112]

Freak thing, this. Let's hope they can identify the road-ragers who should really be the focus of the discussion around this video.

great point.

i'd hope that i would respond to such an emergency, trying to give comfort and aid to the victim (and i've gotten involved in situations that werent necessary for me, like breaking up a fight, calling 911 after witnessing a car crash in the other lanes of the interstate), but i have seen myself being so shocked at what i witnessed, that i was be rooted to the spot - nothing quite so tragic as this, though. perhaps that's what was going on in some of those folks minds, so stunned they cant respond?

i read a study done years ago, cant remember where, about how time is a factor in helping. folks were arriving for an interview. got part one at the site and had to move around the block to get the second part. they were given different times to be there (immediately, vs 30 mins later). the researchers put a obviously distressed man on the path of the interviewers - i dont rember the specifics - maybe a homeless guy who had fallen, it was not a life or death situation. those who had to rush to get to the interview hardly ever stopped. there was a significance to folks who helped and those who had extra time. perhaps we've become so busy that we ignore "distractions" to our own daily life? u'know, an SEP? Somebody's Else's Problem?

one of the main points taught when i took first aid and mentioned by several posts, assess the situation and dont become another victim. blood-borne pathogens can be an issue as well, but there are ways to assist without putting oneself at risk (and the death knell for hiv/aids isnt quite what it was back in the 80's. folks live many years of quality life now - but that's another thread).

i'd hope i'd respond, without putting myself at more risk, but respect those that dont for health reasons. those that chose to ignore the situation, well, i just feel sad for them.

and the drivers on the wrong side of the road need to be brought to justice.

[markalot]

The whole point is how non-heroic I was and am and how it doesn't take any superhuman effort. Just your presence and the sound of your voice. Anyway, I think it's time I take my sabbatical, until I lose the bet with classicgirl or around this time next year. Cheers all! See you in 09. PM me if ya need me :P

The bet will be lost this afternoon, see ya then. :)

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Look both ways before you cross the street, dammit!!!

[patio]

I think this is the norm for anywhere in the country. The only thing different here is that its taped.

[frizgolf]

Look both ways before you cross the street, dammit!!!

Yep. You can do it every day all your life, and the one day you don't is when it gets ya...

[Sushi]

Look both ways before you cross the street, dammit!!!
Yeah, and hope that two assholes don't cross over the center line into the wrong lane.

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Seriously, you have to be aware of your surroundings. I watch EVERYTHING when I'm not in a familiar area. It amazes me how many people are oblivious to their surroundings. Very sad.

[Kruschev]

Seriously, you have to be aware of your surroundings. I watch EVERYTHING when I'm not in a familiar area. It amazes me how many people are oblivious to their surroundings. Very sad.

Well, let's not make it seem like it was the old man's fault. Two pieces of shit ran this man down. I'm really surprised this isn't the bigger issue. Next thing we hear is gonna be a PSA about the dangers of street walking because it interferes with drag racing. I know everyone's caught up in the aftermath and nobody doing shit, but that ain't the real problem. And on jaywalking, dude couldn't been crossing on one of those whited marked pedestrian crossings and he still woulda got hit. I forget what they're called. :) With that said, I hope these wastes of life see a real good time in prison.

[berzerker]

Re: the diffusion of responsibility. One of the things they teach you in CPR/first aid training is that before you start administering CPR or doing anything, you look directly at and point to one individual and say, "You--please call 911 now." You hand the responsibility to an individual. And then you provide whatever care you are trained to give. In this case, all someone had to do was 1) made sure that someone called 911 and 2) crouch beside him to hold his hand and tell him help was on the way.

Big addition, and one that's relevent in this case, and brought up several times, too - in my recent CPR/Firts Aid class, we were told to (after telling a specific person to contact 911) make sure that the scene is safe - no threats to yourself or others.

One key situation that was mentioned - while we were practicing resuscitation on 2 different child dummies - if you walk into a room with 2 unconscious children in it, the scene is NOT safe...

[DaHood]

Well, let's not make it seem like it was the old man's fault. Two pieces of shit ran this man down. I'm really surprised this isn't the bigger issue. Next thing we hear is gonna be a PSA about the dangers of street walking because it interferes with drag racing. I know everyone's caught up in the aftermath and nobody doing shit, but that ain't the real problem. And on jaywalking, dude couldn't been crossing on one of those whited marked pedestrian crossings and he still woulda got hit. I forget what they're called. :) With that said, I hope these wastes of life see a real good time in prison.It's not about pointing the finger of blame at the victim, but I'll bet that guy is a lot more cautious crossing a street after what happened to him. Why not learn from his experience?

[Motti]

The FOX News video is fucked up. They cut off the footage just before the crowd goes out to circle the guy and the police cruiser arrives.

Way to create sensationalism. I really don't see how this is news. I hope I don't ever get run over; but if I do, it'll be great if authorities arrive within one minute.

[PeterABnny]

It's true that we don't know what they are saying. A couple of them may have tried to talk to him towards the end of the video, maybe, it looked more like they might as well have been poking him with a stick. A number of people could have asked if anyone called 911, I would hope they did. It's hard to say that nobody did anything, but it's still a bit disturbing that nobody rushed to him. That was a long time to be lying there lifeless by himself after being mowed down by a car. Somebody should have gotten there quicker. That one woman took a few steps into the street before turning around. And traffic never stopped until the cop got there. One van stopped so he could turn around. That was classy.


Just thought I'd throw this scenario out at you guys and see if it changes anything...

When I first heard about this on GMA they pointed out that this is a depressed, crime-ridden area well known to police as an area who's denizens refuse to help the police when a crime like this goes down. They have an unspoken rule "against squealing," as GMA put it. Might be nobody called either because they geniunely didn't give a crap about the poor guy or didn't want to involve their sworn enemies, the police.

What say you then?

[berzerker]

Just thought I'd throw this scenario out at you guys and see if it changes anything...

When I first heard about this on GMA they pointed out that this is a depressed, crime-ridden area well known to police as an area who's denizens refuse to help the police when a crime like this goes down. They have an unspoken rule "against squealing," as GMA put it. Might be nobody called either because they geniunely didn't give a crap about the poor guy or didn't want to involve their sworn enemies, the police.

What say you then?

So, their socio-economic background is financially depressed and crime ridden - doesn't mean they have to be dicks.

otoh, cue the Public Enemy - 911 is a joke - maybe they felt like it wouldn't do any good, and dude was probably dead anyway, and even if he wasn't, the po-po would just fuck things up worse for the guy.

I dunno, man... still seems like that guy in the street is a human being, everyone walking or driving is a human being, and we kinda need to look out for eachother, now and again.

[Shlep]

There's no doubt that it sucked to be the guy who was lying mangled and broken in the middle of the street as a result of getting t-boned by a speeding car while any number of passers-by in the immediate vicinity kept their distance instead of rendering aid.

Then again, drawing a crowd is not necessarily something that will lead to a major improvement on the situation. "What do you mean, Shlep?" you may well ask. Well, kindly turn your attention to Exhibit A.

EXHIBIT A (http://www.imeem.com/people/jHA2Li/music/g_9BjR84/eddie_murphy_hit_by_a_car/)

[lutz]

I'm firmly in the "those by-standers are a bunch of callous motherfuckers" camp.

If you see someone has been involved in an accident you do whatever is in your power to help them. What the fuck is wrong with people?

[Shlep]

I'm firmly in the "those by-standers are a bunch of callous motherfuckers" camp.

If you see someone has been involved in an accident you do whatever is in your power to help them. What the fuck is wrong with people?

http://www.seinfeldonline.com/jackie.jpg

"You know what these people were? They were innocent bystanders. Now, you just think about that term. Innocent. Bystanders. Because that's exactly what they were. We know they were bystanders, nobody's disputing that. So how can a bystander be guilty? No such thing. Have you ever heard of a guilty bystander? No, because you cannot be a bystander and be guilty. Bystanders are by definition, innocent. That is the nature of bystanding. But no, they want to change nature here. They want to create a whole new animal - the guilty bystander. Don't you let them do it. Only you can stop them."