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the_birds
08 Feb 2008, 12:45 PM
Her supports don't want to hear it, but her stupid bravado killed her.

Feb. 8, 2008, 4:37AM
Scotland Yard confirms blast not gunshot killed Bhutto

By MATTHEW PENNINGTON
Associated Press

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — Scotland Yard said in a report released today that Pakistan's opposition leader Benazir Bhutto died as a result of a suicide bomb blast, not a gunshot — findings that support the Pakistani government's version of the events.

Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party immediately rejected the British conclusion and repeated its demand for a U.N. investigation.

The party says Bhutto was shot and suspects a government cover-up because Bhutto had accused political allies of President Pervez Musharraf of plotting to kill her.

The British probe also found that a single attacker both fired the shots at Bhutto and detonated the blast by blowing himself up moments later.

The death of the former prime minister sparked violent unrest across the country and forced a six-week delay in parliamentary elections, now set for Feb. 18. The continuing dispute over exactly how she died will do little to ease Pakistan's political turmoil.

Musharraf has rejected the call for a U.N. probe but invited Scotland Yard to help establish the cause of death. After a two-and-a-half week investigation, their findings were released Friday in a summarized report issued by the British High Commission in Islamabad.

British Home Office pathologist Dr. Nathaniel Cary was quoted in a report as saying that "the only tenable cause" for Bhutto's fatal head injury was the impact of the blast that went off as she waved to supporters from the hatch of her vehicle after an election rally.

"In my opinion Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto died as a result of a severe head injury sustained as a consequence of the bomb-blast and due to head impact somewhere in the escape hatch of the vehicle," Cary said in the report.

Pakistan's government announced a similar conclusion shortly after Bhutto's killing, which took place in the garrison city of Rawalpindi. It says the attack was orchestrated by a top Taliban militant commander with links to al-Qaida, Baitullah Mehsud.

There was widespread public skepticism over the government's conclusion as the bomb site was hosed down within hours of the attack and the findings were announced with haste.

"We disagree with the finding on the cause of the death," said Sherry Rehman, spokeswoman for the Pakistan Peoples Party, who escorted Bhutto to hospital after the Dec. 27 attack. "She died from a bullet injury. This was and is our position."

The Scotland Yard report said that despite the lack of a detailed search of the crime scene or autopsy of Bhutto's body "the evidence that is available is sufficient for reliable conclusions to be drawn." Investigators had relied considerably on X-rays and detailed examination of video footage of the attack, it said.

The report concluded that there had been a lone attacker, though earlier there had been suggestions that a separate bomber had lurked behind the gunman.

"In essence, all the evidence indicates that one suspect has fired the shots before detonating an improvised explosive device," the report said.

Before the findings were officially released, Rehman called into question Scotalnd Yard's ability to fully investigate the killing.

"Their terms of reference were limited," Rehman said of the British. "They were working under the Pakistani police. Their investigation was limited only to finding the cause of her death."

Police officer Chaudhry Abdul Majid who is heading Pakistan's own investigation, said they agreed with British findings. He said that a gun was fired but the bullets did not hit Bhutto.

British experts had concluded that the injury on the right side of Bhutto's head was not a bullet wound but appeared "entirely consistent with her head impacting upon the lip of the escape hatch" of her SUV, the report said.

It said media footage — broadcast extensively on Pakistani and international TV — showed Bhutto moving forward and to the right, and disappearing from view less than a second before the blast.

"Whilst her exact head position at the time of the detonation can never be ascertained, the overwhelming conclusion must be that she did not succeed in getting her head entirely below the lip of the escape hatch when the explosion occurred," it said.

Pakistani police said they were also close to finalizing their investigation into who carried out the attack — a field of inquiry beyond the remit of the Scotland Yard team.

Majid confirmed that police had arrested two "important" suspects in Rawalpindi on Thursday, identified only as Husnain Gul and Rafaqat. He said they appeared to have facilitated the suicide bomber.

He said they were arrested on information from a 15-year old boy arrested last month in northwestern Pakistan who told police he was among a five-man suicide squad charged with assassinating Bhutto.

Duemellon
08 Feb 2008, 12:52 PM
Her supports don't want to hear it, but her stupid bravado killed her. I don't see anything in there citing this "bravado" you speak of. What was going on that I don't know/see?

the_birds
08 Feb 2008, 12:57 PM
I don't see anything in there citing this "bravado" you speak of. What was going on that I don't know/see?

There was the point of contention that whether she was assassinated (in the traditional way) or not. I think her supporters are of the idea that there was nothing at all wrong with popping out of the hatch and waving to the crowd, because the bullet killed her.

But they don't want Musharraf to be right, because he ridiculed her security team and their plan of escape and that she was dumb to ever top her head out at all. And now he was right.

He was interviewed on 60 Minutes after this happened.

Homsar
08 Feb 2008, 01:08 PM
If it's the same guy shooting and blowing up, what does it matter?

the_birds
08 Feb 2008, 01:08 PM
If it's the same guy shooting and blowing up, what does it matter?

Jihad against Homsar!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Homsar
08 Feb 2008, 01:10 PM
Bring it!!

the_birds
08 Feb 2008, 01:16 PM
Sorry, couldn't help making that joke.

Its a huge difference in Pakistan, because Musharraf came out and basically said it was Bhutto's own fault, and of course, her considerable supporters didn't like that, and is it really a coincidence (implication that Musharraf had something to do with it), because they were opposing forces?

Its like say W. gets killed right before the election (I would die a happy man) and Obama comes out and says, it was his own fault for ever a poor plan on leaving his fundraiser and he got himself killed.

Republicans would probably be very upset about it.

Homsar
08 Feb 2008, 01:18 PM
No, I mean why would it matter whether she died from a gunshot or a blast if they were done by the same guy?

the_birds
08 Feb 2008, 01:25 PM
No, I mean why would it matter whether she died from a gunshot or a blast if they were done by the same guy?

Its basically, whether Bhutto was an idiot or not. Assassination by gunshot, gives Bhutto supporters the claim that she would have been killed regardless. A Bomb blast is an inaccurate weapon and you can't confirm the intended victim was Bhutto or not, but it does prove that Bhutto was stupid for ever popping her head out of the vehicle.

And since it caused her death, it kinda lets Musharraf get to rub salt in their wounds or not, because he was right when he said it was a stupid move on her part to do what she did.

Duemellon
08 Feb 2008, 01:27 PM
There was the point of contention that whether she was assassinated (in the traditional way) or not. I think her supporters are of the idea that there was nothing at all wrong with popping out of the hatch and waving to the crowd, because the bullet killed her.

But they don't want Musharraf to be right, because he ridiculed her security team and their plan of escape and that she was dumb to ever top her head out at all. And now he was right.

He was interviewed on 60 Minutes after this happened.I guess I don't get the sequence of events.

So the guy started shooting, Bhutto tried to escape by ducking through an escape hatch, the explosion went off before she completely made it under & then she died.

I don't see the bravado part. Are you saying she shouldn't've been waving to the crowd, or trusting in her security team, or they (the security team) decided to ram the shooter? I'm missing something.

Homsar
08 Feb 2008, 01:28 PM
Oh, took me while. So basically, Bhutto lifting her head out of an escape hatch of a vehicle for a few seconds and subjecting herself to the chance of an attack makes it HER fault she was killed. I get it now!

the_birds
08 Feb 2008, 03:02 PM
Oh, took me while. So basically, Bhutto lifting her head out of an escape hatch of a vehicle for a few seconds and subjecting herself to the chance of an attack makes it HER fault she was killed. I get it now!

Its not she was campaigning in Milwaukee. It was Pakistan. You pay for bravado (mistakes) like this, with your life.

ETA: I was gonna say Detroit or LA, but that wouldn't have worked, would it?

Duemellon
08 Feb 2008, 06:25 PM
Its not she was campaigning in Milwaukee. It was Pakistan. You pay for bravado (mistakes) like this, with your life.

ETA: I was gonna say Detroit or LA, but that wouldn't have worked, would it?So that is what you're saying? That she shouldn't've been in "that part of the neighborhood anyway"?

I guess the question for me is why was her head in that state. Was she giving the 'princess wave' to her fans & tried to duck under? Was she in the car & when the shooting started, she was trying to get out?

Idunno, seems like she was in a no-win situation if people are going to say she had no business trying to use an escape hatch to escape.

the_birds
08 Feb 2008, 08:12 PM
Idunno, seems like she was in a no-win situation if people are going to say she had no business trying to use an escape hatch to escape.

Yea, basically the point is that she was outta there, the convoy was in the process of leaving (very slowly, with heavy crowds), and then, yes, she DOES pop out of the hatch and attempts a "princess wave." She wasn't trying to escape, it was more like a sunroof. If you saw the hatch, it would be pretty dumb to try to escape from it, there is a damn good chance she would have stayed alive had she forgone the beauty queen imitation and just stayed in seated in the SUV.

Its was an ill-conceived exit plan of the event, was Musharraf's point, and he's right. Her supporters blasted him and rioted and everything else, and it was partly her fault. If she wasn't going to take basic safety measures, she deserves blame.

Just because you're beloved and most likely the next president, doesn't give you a free pass to do whatever. She knew she had enemies. Maybe she wanted to be a martyr, but surely she had to see that there was no one to pick up the mantle for her people. Maybe she just had a brain fart, maybe someone in her inner circle gave away her plans. Now the Pakistanis have no free candidate.

euro60
10 Feb 2008, 02:12 AM
Its was an ill-conceived exit plan of the event, was Musharraf's point, and he's right. Her supporters blasted him and rioted and everything else, and it was partly her fault. If she wasn't going to take basic safety measures, she deserves blame.

I agree with that... it was basically her stupidity. Whether that will help Musharraf I doubt,,,, I mean, there is so much hostility towards the guy right now in Pakistan....

Homsar
11 Feb 2008, 11:40 PM
It's one thing to be stupid, but another to be intimidated. I don't think she deserves any blame for her death.

the_birds
12 Feb 2008, 12:03 AM
It's one thing to be stupid, but another to be intimidated. I don't think she deserves any blame for her death.

Like I said before, its not Milwaukee. Think for a minute, she was in Pakistan and she knew better and ignored good advice.

And saying she doesn't have any blame is like saying that a its okay to run across a freeway. Its a calculated risk, but dodging cars going 80, is a helluva lot dumber that taking the long way.

Homsar
12 Feb 2008, 12:12 AM
Yeah, but the cars on the freeway don't set out to blow up anyone who happens to run in front of them. Just cause it's a "bad place" doesn't mean it's ok to let killers keep you down.

Duemellon
12 Feb 2008, 06:18 AM
Yeah, but the cars on the freeway don't set out to blow up anyone who happens to run in front of them. Just cause it's a "bad place" doesn't mean it's ok to let killers keep you down.Thank you.

An official who says they're "tough on crime", wants the support of those downtrodden by crime, would do best to rally those people who are victimized by going there.

I dunno, there's something about your (tBird) tone & Mushaf's tone that come across like she was foolish for being a politician who went out politicking. I get the impression (& it's not very far off I bet) that Mushaf, if he was going to do a similar visit, would've sent out an exploratory team with napalm bombs in front of him.

the_birds
12 Feb 2008, 08:51 AM
I dunno, there's something about your (tBird) tone & Mushaf's tone that come across like she was foolish for being a politician who went out politicking. I get the impression (& it's not very far off I bet) that Mushaf, if he was going to do a similar visit, would've sent out an exploratory team with napalm bombs in front of him.

I just think you guys are taking for granted American rights and values. You guys are totally right, if this was the US or any major Western country. But its not.

In any case, W. seals off roads with 100's of cops in America when he comes to town as a precaution in AMERICA. You would think Bhutto would have the sense to take more precautions in a country where people wear Automatic weapons like we carry wallets.

akip
12 Feb 2008, 09:15 AM
what's significant is her supporters do not accept the blast theory. for whatever reason, they believe that she was shot, and that it proves a conspiracy.

forget rationality. since when are human affairs governed by logic?

patio
12 Feb 2008, 09:16 AM
I just think you guys are taking for granted American rights and values. You guys are totally right, if this was the US or any major Western country. But its not.

In any case, W. seals off roads with 100's of cops in America when he comes to town as a precaution in AMERICA. You would think Bhutto would have the sense to take more precautions in a country where people wear Automatic weapons like we carry wallets.

Bottom line is she died doing what she thought was best for her country. If you think dying for your country is stupid then boy your one hell of a coward. And i'm not gonna even comment on what you say about Pakistan, we already know your a racist.

the_birds
12 Feb 2008, 09:45 AM
Bottom line is she died doing what she thought was best for her country. If you think dying for your country is stupid then boy your one hell of a coward. And i'm not gonna even comment on what you say about Pakistan, we already know your a racist.

All I'm saying is details matter. The process matters. Procedures matter. Safety matters.

You calling me a racist? For what? Saying the truth, that Pakistan can be a very dangerous place? Colombia is a very dangerous place. New Orleans, Mexico City, East L.A., Mississippi. Southwest Houston can be a very dangerous place and I was raised there.

You can take your holier-than-thou bullshit and stick up your ass. If I have to be careful walking in certain neighborhoods, so does everyone else, or their asking for it. If she would have been taking every precaution, that's one thing, but she wasn't and that's been proven now, by the independent Scotland Yard.