Bowling for Columbine

[Juliana]

Does anybody know if it's coming anywhere around here?
It opens by the end of the month "in theaters everywhere"

I saw Michael Moore on tv in a few different places today, and the film sounds *really* interesting

[Murphy]

I saw MM on the Today show the other day and am anxiously awaiting the release of bowling for columbine (http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/) as well. (see the website - and don't skip the Flash intro - it's good.)

Looks like it will be a lot better than Downsize This (was that the last movie's name?) because I think it will hit a nerve more than the corporateamericablahblahblah, and besides, that movie was really about his book tour anyway (I was almost in it too, but they didn't use the part I was in.)

Anyhoo, it releases this weekend in LA and NYC, but his website didn't have any listings for around here yet. We'll just have to wait and see!

[Candyass]

I saw MM on Donahue a few weeks ago and he convinced me that he is a genuis!! The clips from the movie looked great. I love the way he tackles real shit with wit and sarcasm.

What was the name of the short-lived show he had in the nineties? They should bring that back considering the state of the nation today.

Anywho, I am anxious to see the movie.

[The Sheck]

I think the last movie was called 'The Big One'.

He's actually had TWO television shows...the first one was called 'TV Nation' and that was only on for a year and a half. Currently he has 'The Awful Truth' which airs on Bravo. He's done two seasons, both are available on DVD. If you're never seen the TV shows, the movie is basically an expanded episode but centering on one topic.

Other MM stuff to get into:

Roger and Me: His first movie about the big three auto plants leaving Flint, MI. He got a name for this one,

Books:

Downsize This
Stupid White Men: As I was reading, this book made me angry, I mean physically angry that this stuff is going down without our knowledge. And then, as if a higher power heard me, I turend the next page of the book and in the sidebar, MM had included:

"If you're finding yourself fuming with rage at this point, call your local senator or representative and voice your concerns" I had to laugh.

Anyhow, all his stuff is eye-opening and funny at the same time, so it's money well=spent.

[Juliana]

Originally posted by The Sheck


"If you're finding yourself fuming with rage at this point, call your local senator or representative and voice your concerns" I had to laugh.


So, did you?

[Candyass]

TV nation is the one I was thinking of, but I didn't know he had a show on Bravo. I watched part of Roger and Me and may or may not have been under the influence of some herbal shit and that rabbit scene freaked me out so I turned it. I guess I should give it another chance sober.

I plan on reading Stupid White Men over X-mas break!!

[Murphy]

Stupid White Men is a really quick read - I think I consumed it in one afternoon. I'll agree with The Sheck, it really does work you into a lather ( is that how the saying goes?)

Some of his facts are so shocking that I have a hard time believing they are true. But even if one-tenth of what he said in that book was accurate, it still is amazing and frightening. It has inspired me to get more involved. Even if it is just at my neighborhood level, I feel you gotta start somewhere.

[MonkeyGirl]

I had a dream the other night that I told Michael Moore that I really enjoyed him on "Charlie Rose".. The movie opens tomorrow in NY and L.A. I'm awaiting anxiously for it to get near Cincinnati. I've always been a fan since TV Nation, back in the day! :D

[classicgrrl]

To this day, I have never seen the Rabit scene in Roger and Me. I can't watch it.

Downsize This was not very good but Stupid White Men was halarious.

TV Nation rocked. Hard.

I cant wait to see this movie!
classic

[The Sheck]

Originally posted by Juliana


So, did you?

Yeah. I got three form letters back from my representative but at least he agreed with me on the issues I was vehemently protesting.


This is from his mailing list.

> >
> > October 9, 2002
> >
> > My Film, "Bowling for Columbine," Opens This
> Friday
> >
> > Dear friends, fans, and fellow evildoers:
> >
> > I am very happy and excited to tell you that this
> > Friday, October 11, my
> > new
> > film, "Bowling for Columbine," will open in New
> York
> > and Los Angeles.
> >
> > It is, I promise, the last thing the Bushies want
> > projected on the movie
> > screens across America this week. The film is,
> first
> > and foremost, a
> > devastating indictment of the violence that is
> done
> > in our name for profit
> > and power -- and no one, in all the advance
> > screenings I have attended, has
> > left the theatre with anything short of rage. I
> > truly believe this film has
> > the potential to rock the nation and get people
> > energized to do something.
> >
> > This is not good news for Junior and Company. Not
> > when they are trying to
> > drag us into another war. Not when a crazed sniper
> > is exercising his
> > constitutional right to own a high-powered rifle.
> > Not when John Ashcroft is
> > still prohibiting the FBI from looking through the
> > gun background check
> > files to see if any of the 19 hijackers or their
> > associates purchased any
> > weapons prior to 9/11 -- because THAT, we are
> told,
> > would "violate" these
> > terrorists' sacred Second Amendment rights!
> >
> > Yes, I believe this movie can create a lot of
> havoc
> > -- but I will need ALL
> > of you to help me do this. Are you game?
> >
> > Last February 5th, I wrote to tell you about a
> book
> > I had written and how
> > the publisher had decided to dump it because they
> > were afraid to publish
> > anything critical of Bush after 9/11. I appealed
> to
> > you to save "Stupid
> > White Men" from the shredder and to go out and buy
> > it. I promised you would
> > not regret it, and that the book would not only be
> a
> > great read but an
> > important organizing tool in gumming up the plans
> of
> > George W. Bush.
> >
> > Within 24 hours, the book went to #1 on the Amazon
> > best seller list. By the
> > fifth day, the book was already into its 9th
> > printing. The publisher was
> > torn between its desire to kill the book or make a
> > wad of money. Greed won
> > out, and this Sunday the book enters its 31st week
> > on the New York Times
> > best seller list -- and its 32nd printing. This is
> > all because of you, my
> > crazy and loyal friends. You made this happen,
> > against all the odds.
> >
> > Now I would like to ask you again to help me with
> my
> > latest work, "Bowling
> > for Columbine." It's a movie that many critics
> have
> > already called my best
> > film to date. They may be right. It is certainly
> the
> > most provocative thing
> > I have ever done. I have spent three years on it
> > and, I have to say, it
> > cuts
> > deeper, harder and funnier that anything I have
> > given you so far.
> >
> > The movie opens this Friday in New York and Los
> > Angeles, and then in 8 more
> > cities next week. How it does in these first ten
> > cities will determine
> > whether or not the rest of the country gets to see
> > it. That is the nutty
> > way
> > our films are released. If it doesn't have a big
> > opening weekend, you can
> > kiss the film good-bye. Therefore, this weekend,
> > this film must be seen by
> > millions of Americans. Can you help me make that
> > happen?
> >
> > "Bowling for Columbine" is not a film simply about
> > guns or school
> > shootings.
> > That is only the starting point for my 2-hour
> > journey into the dark soul of
> > a country that is both victim and master of an
> > enormous amount of violence,
> > both at home and around the world. With this movie
> I
> > have broadened my
> > canvas to paint a portrait of our nation at the
> > beginning of the 21st
> > century, a nation that seems hell-bent on killing
> > first and asking
> > questions
> > later. It is a movie about the state sponsored
> acts
> > of violence and
> > terrorism against our own poor, and how we have
> > created a culture of fear
> > that is based on the racial dilemma we continue to
> > ignore. And it's a
> > devastating comedy.
> >
> > This film is going to upset some pretty big apple
> > carts. No film has EVER
> > said the things I am saying in "Bowling for
> > Columbine." I expect to be
> > attacked. I expect certain theatres will not show
> it
> > for fear of
> > retribution. I expect that this movie will be a
> > bitter pill for many to
> > swallow.
> >
> > This is why I need your help. Movies live or die
> > based on what happens at
> > the box office the first weekend of its release. I
> > need you, if you live in
> > the New York or L.A. area, to go see "Bowling for
> > Columbine" this Friday
> > and
> > Saturday -- and take as many family members and
> > friends with you as
> > possible. I guarantee you will not be disappointed
> > -- and you may just see
> > one of the best films of the year.
> >
> > Monday night in Times Square, "Bowling for
> > Columbine" had its premiere. The
> > crowd was amazing, as it was this past Saturday
> > night at the Chicago Film
> > Festival. The audience kept laughing or hooting or
> > applauding so loud
> > throughout the film that it was hard to hear the
> > next line.
> >
> > The hate mail, the threats, the promises of
> > retribution have already
> > started
> > to roll in to the distributor of this movie,
> United
> > Artists. They are not
> > backing down. But how long will this last? I need
> > all of you in the New
> > York
> > tri-state and southern California areas to go see
> > "Bowling for Columbine"
> > THIS weekend -- the rest of you can see it in a
> > couple of weeks when it
> > comes to your town. A strong opening not only
> means
> > that the rest of
> > America
> > will see this film, it means that a good number of
> > people who see it are
> > going to leave the film angry enough to get active
> > and get involved. If it
> > does poorly, I will have a difficult time finding
> > the funding for the movie
> > I want to make next -- a film about 9/11 and how
> > Bush is using that tragic
> > day as a cover for his right-wing agenda.
> >
> > Don't let that happen. Don't let the NRA have one
> > more success by stopping
> > the wider distribution of this movie. And,
> together,
> > let us not remain
> > silent in our opposition to Bush's phony war
> against
> > Iraq.
> >
> > If you live in New York, you can see it at the
> > Lincoln Plaza, the Sunshine
> > and the Loews 19th St. In L.A., you can catch it
> at
> > the Sunset 5, the
> > Westwood Regent, Laemmle Sunset, Laemmle
> Towncenter
> > (Encino), Landmark
> > Rialto (Pasadena), and Regal University (Irvine).
> > Also, please forward this
> > to your other friends and tell them to go see
> > "Bowling for Columbine" this
> > weekend.
> >
> > And finally, don't miss our new website
> > www.bowlingforcolumbine.com
> >
> > Thank you for your help with this. I feel so
> honored
> > and privileged to have
> > so many people interested in my work. Last January
> I
> > was getting 70,000
> > hits
> > a month on my website. Last month, I got 17
> million
> > hits. This alone speaks
> > volumes about the vast majority all of us belong
> to
> > who are sick and tired
> > of what is going on and are longing for an
> > alternative source of
> > information.
> >
> > I hope that you enjoy "Bowling for Columbine."
> >
> > Thank you again...
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > Michael Moore

[The Sheck]

And I should probably mention it was MM's mailing list I got that from, and not my congressman. Carry on.

[redbobsled]

I might go see it today or tomorrow. I'll report back and let y'all know how it is. There are so many movies coming out this week, I don't know what to go see!!!!
After many recent bad movie theater incidents (people talking back to the movie, loudly eating, being total imbeciles, etc.), I'm in need of a non-mainstream movie theater experience.

Here's a list of release dates/locations from the movie's website. No Cincinnati dates yet, though.

http://64.207.132.47/about/theaters.php

[Frost]

i saw a piece from a thing he did with a radio station about a month ago...

i saw the intro to stupid white men a while back, but i guess i didn't get hooked in

i must admit, i'm getting super curious now about this columbine movie... i'm DYING for something to rock the country out of it's hypersleep

[Nemetona]

Hello once again, dear old friends. Long time no type. It’s been a while since I posted, but I am wired this AM and have a lot on my mind.
Last night I saw Bowling for Columbine at the New Orleans Film Festival, and I am a bit shell-shocked.
It was a double header btw—Columbine and Naqoyqatsi (more on the latter elsewhere).

First, I will TRY not to give away any spoilers here, but be warned—I want to communicate what effect this film has had on me, and to do that I must relate the structure of the documentary. Also, I understand that some of you may not be able to see the film for some months and may be interested in reading something more than my subjective opinion. I will definitely not quote this documentary, and so give away the brain-blastingly frightening, hilarious statements from the interviewees. Flabbergasted, disgusted laughs are the heart of this film, and I won’t deny any of you that. But I do feel compelled to share.

So… fair warning has been made, yes?

Okay. If you’re reading this thread, you already know generally what the film is about—Michael Moore on a quest to understand our combative gun culture in the wake of Sept. 11 and the shootings at Columbine H.S. in Littleton, Colorado.

Matt Stone of South Park fame and originally of Littleton makes a brief but insightful appearance, as do Dick Clark (who lives up to his name), Charlton "Not from my cold dead hand" Heston, and Marilyn Manson, who comes off as one of the most lucid persons he interviews. Especially compared to Heston, who shows himself to be the dottering, ruthless, cold-hearted bastard he is.

Celebs aside, Moore mostly speaks to people on the street all over America, but especially LA, Denver/Littleton, and various places around Michigan and southern Ontario (Sarnia, just over the border from Port Huron, Michigan, and Windsor, across the lake from Detroit).

With his trademark bluntness, Michael Moore has no fear, saying all the things we want to say to the bastards we want to say them to. The article quoted above cites Moore as saying that this film is the last thing the Bushies want right now. I would call that an understatement. About halfway through the film, it occurred to me that Our Man Mike will definitely be assassinated for making this film. It’s not just because it criticizes the Bush mission to bomb all the "towelheads" back to Allah (ironically Congress rolled over on the very day of the film’s release); it’s also because this film is such and indictment to anyone who falls in line with the NRA, GOP, big business, and the far right in general.

In middle of the film, Moore interjects a whirlwind history of the US in the form of an animated short that will leave your eyes popping for its gasping humor and obvious truth. It boils things down to the major social events since the Pilgrims came over, making it clear that neither gun lobbies, nor easy access to firearms, nor the perception that America is a nation of violent inclination are legitimate reasons for our particularly violent culture. At the heart of it all, Moore finds, is White Fear.

No, of course rampant violence doesn’t just boil down to racism. Moore shows us the statistics--- how ammunition sales are up over 100% since 9/11, how although crime is down, gun purchases are up, and how more than 11,000 people die of gunshot wounds in the US each year compared to double digit-counts in other countries who have a comparable number of firearms.

From Native Americans to freed slaves to postwar White Flight, we have repeatedly acted out of fear, perpetuated by conglomerate-owned media outlets who know that fear will keep us watching. Also perpetuated by militaristic administrations who like us to sit down and shut up while they profit from oil-mongering and unsullied terrorism under the guise of promoting democracy. Their Bible-thump blood-lust is barely masked by a patriotic wave and a crisply flapping Old Glory. We see in Columbine a 50-year survey of the millions who have died as a result of US-led assassinations of democratically-elected leaders and the subsequent installation of colluding dictators.

Through fear, we have come to look to aggressive administrations with acceptance, thinking they have our security at heart. In so doing, we unwittingly give consent to continue US destruction of economies, societies and environments worldwide. Since it’s easier to "go along to get along" than understand such complexities, it appears fear will continue to rule us until we all realize this truth.


My friends, there is a reason this film was the first documentary to be invited to Cannes in 55 years, and was awarded a newly created special award. More than clever editing, a soundtrack that features CVB's Take the Skinheads Bowling, or even the footage from Columbine's security cameras, this film is simply TRUE. That is, THE truth, the reality that we recognize when we've been slapped across the face with it, that we fail to see due to our own shortcomings or the obfuscation of others (e.g. the big purveyors of agreed-upon truth).

When the credits started rolling, I was left with one thought: 50 years from now, those of us who are still around might look back on this film as a catalyst. A film that not only predicted but effected the turnaround necessary to move away from the status quo of a turbulent country. Of course, that's not possible if it can't even be seen. If you’re in New York or LA, you have a responsibility to go, if only to boost attendance so it can be released in smaller markets across the country.
The more people who see it, the more likely my 'future-flashback' will be a reality.

Okay, you may be saying that I'm the hooked fish, that no film could ever foster such change. Yes, fine I am a dreamer, okay; all I can do is implore all of you, politically-minded or not, to see this film. See it to fill some gaps in your understanding of our nation, where our country stands at the beginning of a brand new century of corporate greed*, media-perpetuated fear, and unmitigated aggression.


You can read an interview with Moore on specific elements of the film: http://abc.net.au/arts/film/stories/s654932.htm
…But better yet, do anything you can to see this film!

Okay, let 'er rip.


*Here's a corker: http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2002-09-30-cover-cms.htm

[MonkeyGirl]

Originally posted by Nemetona
Especially compared to Heston, who shows himself to be the dottering, ruthless, cold-hearted bastard he is.

Nah, I think that's the Alzheimer's. ;)

[classicgrrl]

I dont do films very much but this move is on my MUST see list.

so where the hell is it? :mad:

classic

[Nemetona]

On his website, Moore says that Bowling is only opening in New York, LA and a film fest in Chicago. Ticket sales in those markets on this premier weekend will determine how many cities will get to see it coast to coast. Consequently, he asks that anyone in either city who plans to see it eventually to go ahead and SEE IT THIS WEEKEND.

Here's hoping enough people go. It's so amazing, perhaps there will be some sort of public outcry to get it shown everywhere. Hey, maybe you guys could start petitioning or something?
There I go sounding like Moore.



Monkeygirl, you may be right, Heston might have Alzheimers... but as Moore shows in Bowling, Alzheimer's wouldn't account for the insensitivity of showing up at Littleton for an NRA rally just two weeks after the shootings, or the impromptu rally in Flint, MI just after a 6-year old boy shot his classmate. At Littleton, he actually started his speech by holding up a rifle (shotgun? not sure), saying "Not from my cold dead hand!". The crowd cheered him like some kind of savior. What a complete nutwad.

You'll like what Moore says to him about the whole matter, too. Michael Moore is my hero! gush gush!
:)

[doctort13]

Anyone see the PBS sequel to Roger & Me called Pets or Meat? It follows up with the people who are interviewed in R & M.

A great MM link MichaelMoore.com (http://www.michaelmoore.com)


I want Crackers The Corperate Crime Fighting Chicken to have his own series.

[mikeatthemadfro]

Thanks Nem!
I needed that review...
probably won't hit cincy theater...until...
hell maybe it'll show up in video stores (who am I kidding?)
maybe I'll take a trip somewhere else to see it...
some day I'll leave this fair city and it's sheltered existence...someday

[Juliana]

Actually Nem, he did come out a few months ago and admit that he's got Alzheimers, or something very much like it.

[Nemetona]

Originally posted by Juliana
Actually Nem, he did come out a few months ago and admit that he's got Alzheimers, or something very much like it.

And here I thought ya'll wuz just funnin!

Okay, well, MAYBE the Alzheimer's might account for the way he spoke in the interview. But I still don't think it would influence his decision to speak at gun rallies when people begged him not to.

Maybe soon he'll be too dottering to leave his mansion/complex and just shut the hell up.
But then there'll be another in line to take his place, I suppose...

[Fograsher]

From the Cracker mailing list...

We almost forgot. Cracker does the title track for the new Michael Moore movie

"Bowling for Columbine".
The movie opens this weekend in NY and Los Angeles.

http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com
http://www.michaelmoore.com

Some people would call this a "controversial" film. I enjoy michael moores work
not just for his politics but because of his sense of humour. I feel he is an
important american filmaker and a good balance to the New McCarthyism out of
Washington.

You may also be pleased to note he is a cracker and a camper van beethoven
fan.

David Lowery

[shivvy]

I was told that BOWLING will open in Cincy on November 1st. Hopefully that will hold true. I cannot wait to see it.

[Nemetona]

I just saw the first trailers for Bowling tonight!
Both trailers, airing in the New Orleans metro area, said the film was opening "nationwide".
That can only mean that major cities will actually get it!

YAY!

[doctort13]

Click here (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14296)

[The Sheck]

I got sneak preview tix for this Wednesday. I am stoked!

The lame-ass alternative radio station in town was at the bar I frequent after work on Fridays promoting their latest CD sampler, and they were passing them out like water.

[UbiquitousBaby]

well, it opened in one theater here in San Francisco. and all the shows for the night were sold out by 6pm yesterday. i've never seen anything like this happen before. i had to venture across the bay to Oakland to see it.

and it is amazing. i think it's easily the best thing that michael moore has done to date. the simple breadth of the issues that this movie takes on is striking. anyway, i don't wanna spoil anything for you guys, so just be sure to see it yourself when you get the chance.

good luck getting this one played at the esquire.

[IPrayForSound]

In case you haven't seen the trailer yet, click here. (http://www.apple.com/trailers/mgm/bowling_for_columbine/large.html)

[The Sheck]

It's as good as it''s advertised. Touching, funny, shocking, and most of all informative. I think it's the best film of the year.

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by shivvy
I was told that BOWLING will open in Cincy on November 1st. Hopefully that will hold true. I cannot wait to see it.

Any clues as to where??? I really wanna see this!
classic

edited to say....I just viewed the trailor. Reminds me why I like Michael Moore so much.

[Huxley]

Quote

Marilyn Manson, who comes off as one of the most lucid persons he interviews.

I believe Brian Warner aka Marylin Manson is the most engenious Pop "Rock Star" out there. I don't agree with all his view points, or like too many of his songs, but he is a very very smart man. I want to see this movie because of its content and messege, but I also want to see because I just enjoy listening to Warner explain his views and beliefs. I think he is a wonderful speaker and a brilliant man, I'd vote for him for president. Which isn't taking things too far considering our currnet leader.

[mattsledge]

Originally posted by classicgrrl Any clues as to where??? I really wanna see this!
The last I heard, it was going to be at CityBeat's favorite theatre -- The Esquire.

[eyeball]

oh goody..yay...another movie I'll have to wait for dvd....grrr.

[MonkeyGirl]

I got to see it on Wednesday at Showcase Cinemas Springdale. It was just excellent- well worth skipping my Wed night class for!
I'll have to see it again once it actually is released here.

[tobedawg]

I went to see this today after going to the HUGE No War on Iraq march in SF today..

I must say that it was very disturbing and thought provoking, yet somewhat humerous at the same time..

It made me continue to further question American History and it's fascination with the ever so mighty gun.. and Dick Clark?? I lost alot of respect for him after watching this film.

It was along the lines of American Beauty for me on the thought-provoking/interpretation lines of things. And along the lines of American History X and Kids for the disturbingness factors.

[classicgrrl]

saw this Saturday night.
Moore makes Hollywood look silly.

classic

[mwng]

I had a good time watching the film. It's a nice piece of propaganda. Riles all the people up and makes them all gung ho for change. Then they go back to the suburbs and life continues as we know it.

But it's at least my type of propaganda.

[doctort13]

and I attended my first film at The Esquire since they did the snip snip snip.

[sadgirlseven]

i finally saw "bowling for columbine" last night and when i got home, i felt compelled to write mike moore an email to thank him. since that sums up how i feel about the film, i'll just post it here:

i think this film should be *required* viewing for americans. i think it should be shown on television every night for a week, unedited. what a thought-provoking, angering, saddening, and humorous film. while there are some good things about our country, there are some *very* troubling issues americans are facing...and in most instances, are turning away from. thank you for having the guts to make your films.

i worked for a community action agency in hamilton, ohio for nine months. while i was a program assistant and didn't deal with clients, i did work with case managers. my officemate was in charge of our agency's welfare-to-work "service." case managers that i encountered, as well as county administrators, found this program to be a complete sham, much like the sheriff in flint. i was nodding all the way through the portion about the WTW program, because i've seen it firsthand. it is a heartless inititive - how can people survive on jobs at burger king? does vocational training in, say, how to run a register, really help anyone move from the welfare roles to self-sufficiency? i would have to say no. it is SHAMEFUL that tamarla owens, a mother who was obviously having a difficult time keeping her household together, was basically forced into indentured slavery by this system. you could do a whole film on the welfare system and how it's being completely dismantled!!!

your film made so many important connections between violence, poverty, race, and corporate/government greed. i think a lot of people in our country forget that all of these things intersect at some point. we need reminding. everyone needs to see this film. please keep on doing your work - we need this kind of dissent out there in the mainstream. it is american through and through to protest - not what our "homeland security" or president wants at all! bush doesn't even want our own representatives to challenge his ideas!

after the last presidential election, i really felt disinfranchised and ready to move to canada. (i voted for nader!) i still feel a bit of that, but after seeing something as simple as taking columbine victims to k-mart and seeing their response to that visit, i am given hope that if the public pushes, the corporations and the government can change. i just wish that more americans would stop whining about it and start PUSHING for the changes they want. i don't believe that the american people are bad or stupid, but i do believe that they are lulled by their own sense of privilege, their fear of change, and by a fear-mongering, non-informative mainstream media.

so i guess this is basically a fan letter, but i just had to write it. i am so glad you are out there, watching and commenting and encouraging others to do the same. thank you a million times over!

---

i was not shocked by the stats and information that moore presented in the film, but i found myself more shocked by the audacity/racism/fear/stupidity displayed by many of those interviewed. it is a sad state of affairs when marilyn manson makes more sense than our own president.

anyway, i do think this is required viewing for everyone in this country. i want my parents to see it, so that maybe, just maybe, they'll think before they vote for bush in 2004.

[McCracker]

I really think Mr. Moore is great and all. But does anyone get the feeling that maybe for every 10 minutes of completed film there may be 10 hours on the cutting room floor? 10 hours where maybe he lost the argument and didnt make the opposing view look like complete idiots. I know that he had to wait several weeks to get the gun from the bank. You'd never know that from the film. Some editing makes it appear as he walked out with a gun the same day he opened the account. I just don't think we should embrace information from ANY source with open arms. Agreeing with everything Mr. Moore says without thinking for yourself is as bad as agreeing to everything George W. says. And were all way too smart to agree with George... Right?

[The Sheck]

Originally posted by McCracker
I know that he had to wait several weeks to get the gun from the bank. You'd never know that from the film. Some editing makes it appear as he walked out with a gun the same day he opened the account.

Taken from Michael Moore's website

Q. Is that bank that hands out guns for real?
A. Yes. North Country Bank (with branches throughout Northern Michigan) offers you a wide choice of guns when you open up a certificate of deposit account. In effect, they are giving you all of the interest the account will earn in advance in the form of a gun. The bank is also an authorized federal arms dealer so they can do the quick background check right there at the bank. I put $1,000 in a long-term account, they did the background check, and, within an hour, walked out with my new Weatherby-just as you see it in the film. (I did have a choice of getting a pair of golf clubs or a grandfather clock, but they didn't have either of those hanging on the wall like they did those three rifles). I learned about the bank's gun offer from an ad in the local paper that showed a gun across the top with the heading, "More Bang for Your Buck" from North Country Bank. I still have the account and the gun to this day (though I plan to legally "auction" off the gun for charity, and creatively have it destroyed (more on that later!).

[slow-dog]

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/1209/059.html?_requestid=2372

BANK: Moore says North Country Bank & Trust in Traverse City, Mich., offered a deal where, "if you opened an account, the bank would give you a gun." He walks into a branch and walks out with a gun.
ACTUALLY: Moore didn't just walk in off the street and get a gun. The transaction was staged for cameras. You have to buy a long-term CD, then go to a gun shop to pick up the weapon after a background check.

[The Sheck]

Did you read what I posted?

The bank is a authorized federal arms dealer so yup, an hour later he walked back into the bank and got his gun. Of course he filmed it for the movie, so I'm not sure about all the hullabaloo about how cameras were there and how it was "staged". Your quote was printed before Moore posted his on the website. His was a response to that criticism. Can you imagine the bank itself, getting all the negative press about being both a bank and a firearms dealer after this film came out? Of course they would either a) change their ways or b) deny it ever happened. Don't believe everything you read.

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by The Sheck
Did you read what I posted?

Well, if Michael Moore said it's so, it must be true.

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by The Sheck
Don't believe everything you read.



Pot? Kettle.

[Tett]

Wow, I didn't know anybody ACTUALLY listened to Moore any more. He's pretty much been dismissed as using passe activism and anti-american sentiment as marketing. I guess the whole white guilt resurgence of 9/11 backlash as given him one last breath.

http://www.reason.com/0301/co.bd.rant.shtml

Has anyone heard about his most recent tantrum in Europe? He was freaking out about how little money he was making for an appearance.

His facts are patently false (and verifiable with about 10 minutes of research on the internet), he repeatedly turns down debates from moderately skilled conservatives and libertarians, the canadian government even issued a statement once clarifying what they called a "misquoted" statistic about the number of gun deaths in dear, independant Cranada.

I'd put him directly on par with Rush Limbaugh. They preach to the converted, whom do no research of thier own, and take these "facts" as the truth that they REALLY, REALLY want to believe.

Peace out Slow, Miss ya babe,
Tett

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by Tett

Peace out Slow, Miss ya babe,
Tett

Back at you, Mikey. You should get your show moved out to SF.

[The Sheck]

Originally posted by Tett
I'd put him directly on par with Rush Limbaugh. They preach to the converted, whom do no research of thier own, and take these "facts" as the truth that they REALLY, REALLY want to believe.

And thank you for backing up your statements with facts as well. I'm not a Michael Moore devout follower by any stretch of the imagination, I did see the movie and I did read Stupid White Men. I do admire that he is a voice of opposition to the workings of our government who in regards to world affairs, the environment, our economy, and our personal freedoms and rights seem quick to sell us down the river. If you don't agree with the way he does things, fine. I think he's a bit liberal myself at times. However, I think the world needs more people like him who aren't afraid to speak their minds at a national level.

Oh, I forgot to mention...when this was big news about two months ago, the questioning of whether or not the walking out with the gun event was staged, I decided to look in the yellow pages online and called several of the North Country banks in question and asked about the account that gave you the gun. It's true. It takes an hour to do the background check, and then you can walk out the same day with the gun in question. But I suppose this isn't a fact because I can't prove it (short of posting my phone bill to prove I actually made the calls) so I'll leave the two numbers of the banks I called so some adventurous soul can clarify if they want. I'm not sure if the deal is still going on, it happened back in 2001 originally and I called almost a year later.

North Country Bank & Trust
414 Newberry Avenue, Newberry, MI
(906) 293-5164

North Country Bank & Trust
Mackinac Island, MI 49757
(906) 847-3663

There are 23 other branches in the Northern Michigan area if calling these aren't enough.
And you're right Tett, it did take me about ten minutes to confirm my facts. You're a smart guy!

[Tett]

Feh,

Slow, this is why I don't post on the boards any more.

Dude, Sheck, I'm just some libertarian shmuck producer. From everything I've read over the past 6 and 7 years, I've determined that Michael Moore is full of crap. I actually don't find his methodology as offensive as his being deceitful. It's the same reason I won't go to the NRA website for gun statistics. People with axes to grind will weigh things in their direction. Documentarians are expected to edit and weigh a peice in the direction of thier view. Moore, however patently manufactures what he's shooting. I don't have time to track down all the links to the things he staged or altered in his film, (for there are many) but for example, he showed a republican smear ad from a few campaigns ago. He changed the ad.

As far as the bank/gun goes, I was under the impression that while the bank does indeed give away guns, the point of contention was the the gun was not physically available at the branch. You have to go elsewhere to get it. His agenda required that he walk out of the bank with a gun, which he could not, so he bought a gun, went in the lobby, and walked out with it.

Had he simply gotten the voucher, and went and picked up the gun after the background check at a different location, I believe it wouldn't have carried the shocking impact he was seeking. However, that would be a much better representation of reality.
Columbine type situtations are statistically nonexistant in gun deaths per year. Did he interview a bunch of white guys who shot thier cheatin' wives? Why not, that happens quite a bit. An even bolder question is; Why didn't he go into any poor black communities like his beloved Detroit, or south central, where the vast majority of hun deaths occur?
Moore has to create his own demons. He preaches to the converted. He lies. He's a hypocrite.

It's true that he speaks his mind. However his mind is firmly seated in fantasy and sensationalistic misrepresentations.

Of course, that 's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Tett]

can't move to the west coast.

I'd love to move back to Chicago, or maybe to LA, but alas, the whole point of the show is that we're on east coast time. We can run live here, and on a delay in the west coast. If we move out there, it doesn't work. Poop on time zones!

We MAY go to Atlanta, but nothing has been decided yet. As I understand it, it's a big maybe.

Thanks slow,
Tett

[AmericanScience]

I just saw it tonight.. Umm.. It's OK in my book. Some thought into issues (why ARE we so violent in the US??) but too scattered. His "attack blind" strategy on K-Mart, Dick Clark and Charlton is weird. I didn't expect results any different than those he got.

His facts are weird, distorted.. Like, Canada has 30M people. USA has.. 260M? So at the surface, our 10.5k+ gun deaths in a year is almost 100x Canada's 150, but... per capita.. 8x or so? Anyway. The film bolstered the fact that I *DO* want to move to Canada eventually..

I'm about as anti-gun as one gets, but I didn't think the film was all that..

Oh, but Terry Nichols' brother is a wacko.

B

[Tett]

for being anti-gun?

I'm always curious to hear new reasons.

[AmericanScience]

my reasons for being anti-gun are similar the reasons that propel me to believe that ordinary citizens don't need hand grenades. it's unnecessary. hunting is fine, but handguns, etc? sheesh.

the root of the flawed bowling movie (other than that there was shockingly little bowling) was that it tried to address too much.

are we too violent? yes.
why? (no answer)
is it guns? uhh... maybe... but canadians do well...
is it fear-spreading by the media? uhh.. maybe, but he did the same with his film..
is america a menace on a global scale? huh. i guess.
is michael moore a senseless interviewer? yep - sometimes.

[classicgrrl]

I have to admit I do have some problems with Moore's movie.

The one thing I did like about Moore's movie was that it made me think. Rush has never made me think about anything. Not that I can stand to listen to him long enough to get to any thinking...

Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater kids...

on this note - seeing all the orange codes and hoopla about terriorist attacks makes me want to change my location to FearLand aka USA...maybe I will just do that.

[Tett]

really big SUV's are unnecessary? I'm not trying to compare a luxury item to one that's designed for damage on every level.

What I am curious about is if anything that is excessive or un-needed falls into this category, or just things that are designed for hurting.

[tobedawg]

I've seen "Bowling For Columbine" 5 times now and plan on buying the DVD when it comes out. As a result of watching "Bowling for Columbine", I've become a huge Michael Moore fan. I bought both seasons of "The Awful Truth" on DVD, own a copy of "Roger and Me" and am looking into getting copies of his other movies..

We need a strong, powerful voice on the left.

As far as the article about the "inconsistency" of facts in "Bowling For Columbine".. I will agree that the film was propaganda as is The Bush Administration's Terrorist Alert System. But to read about it in FORBES Magazine.. A publication for the wealthy makes me laugh.

[postfeminist]

i'm finding it really interesting reading everyone's thoughts on Bowling for Columbine... i saw it almost six weeks ago or so when it came thru my sleepy college town. a lot of professors here at Ohio University were offering extra credit to students to see the film, and the theater was packed. we went because we're big MM fans.

If i had known the spiral of depression that would hit me after that film! i couldn't shake it, and i still can't! i've been a leftist since i read Marx for the first time when i was 15, and i've read lefty publications for years, and heard all the facts and figures and i want to move to canada, but i think that seeing some of the data, statistics, etc...really polarized me even more against the us of a...

the moments where the footage and body counts from past wars and genocides were going over the screen, the theater was silent. i could almost hear my blood pumping.

[doctort13]

I received at note from the marketing dept. at MGM that the release of "Bowling For Columbine" on DVD has been delayed. I'll post more as I hear from MGM.

[Milkman Dan]

Hm... when my girlfriend and I saw this movie together, we were both thoroughly shocked to hear these things. Now I cling to the left as much as any good citizen, but these insites I believe have warrented me another watch... and some research of my own perhaps.

Propaganda for the left... must have flew right over my liberal head. I feel so dirty!

...Still dig the film though...

[WalterSobchak]

well I finally saw this the other day and I thought I would dig this thread and see what everyone had thought. Personaly I'm not a rabid fan of MM, but I do appreciate what he has to say and do.
this movie made me fairly emotional, especially the aforementioned grnocide/political agenda piece. I think that seeing all that at such a quick pace was very effective.

I guess my question to the people that have beef with MM, is why? why would you want to discredit him? it seems to me that even if some of his stuff is manipulated, it certainely doesn't detract from the other parts of his message. you gonna tell me that we didn't do what we did in panama or chile? I find the shear fact that someone was dissapointed that he tried to compare US gun murder rates and Canada's, even though ours is really only 8x..., to be apalling. I have no problem with debunking him as a "good" documentary-maker, but to denounce him and his efforts seems horribly rash.

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by classicgrrl
Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater kids...

My thoughts exactly Walter. Everything and everyone has their own agenda; but try to extoll the goodies from the hype...again, Moore's movie made me think and feel and these are generally good things.