Radicals vs. moderates: British Muslims at crossroads

[markalot]

I was called a bunch of names when I spouted that the moderates have to gain control or else Islam is lost. I ask again, is Islam mostly moderates or extremists?

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Story Highlights
• Extremist: "In war, people die"
• Many moderates say foreign policy is to blame for growing radicalism
• Moderate says some extremists believe killing people is "quite cool"
• Imam Usama Hasan says Quran does not justify killings, religion is about peace

DUBLIN, Ireland (CNN) -- At a recent debate over the battle for Islamic ideals in England, a British-born Muslim stood before the crowd and said Prophet Mohammed's message to nonbelievers is: "I come to slaughter all of you."

"We are the Muslims," said Omar Brooks, an extremist also known as Abu Izzadeen. "We drink the blood of the enemy, and we can face them anywhere. That is Islam and that is jihad."

Anjem Choudary, the public face of Islamist extremism in Britain, added that Muslims have no choice but to take the fight to the West.

"What are Muslims supposed to do when they are being killed in the streets in Afghanistan and Baghdad and Palestine? Do they not have the same rights to defend themselves? In war, people die. People don't make love; they kill each other," he said. (Audio slide show: Preying on Britain's young Muslims)

But in the same debate, held on the prestigious grounds of Dublin's Trinity College in October, many people in the crowd objected.

"These people, ladies and gentleman, have a good look at them. They actually believe if you kill women and children, you will go to heaven," said one young Muslim who waved his finger at the radicals.

"This is not ideology. It's a mental illness." (Watch 'No chance in hell'Video)
'Foreign policy has a lot to do with it'

This war of words is part of a larger debate going on in Britain -- the war within the Muslim community for the hearts and minds of young people. The battle of ideas came to the fore again this week when the trial began for six men who are accused of an "extremist Muslim plot" to target London on July 21, 2005.

The Woolwich Crown Court was told the men plotted to carry out a series of "murderous suicide bombings" on London's public transport system, just 14 days after the carnage of the July 7 London bombings, which killed 52 commuters and four bombers.

While Islamic extremists are believed to be a tiny minority of Britain's 1.6 million Muslims, they have no problem having their criticism heard. They have disdain for democracy -- and, most of all, the Bush administration's war on terror policies.

A poll taken in June 2006 for the Times of London newspaper suggested that 13 percent of British Muslims believe the July 7 London bombers were martyrs.

"Foreign policy has a lot to do with it," said Hanif Qadir, a youth worker and a moderate voice for Islam in Walthamstow, one of London's biggest Muslim neighborhoods. "But it's the minority radical groups that use that to get to our young people."

In August, British police descended on Walthamstow, saying they had foiled a conspiracy to blow up a dozen U.S.-bound airliners with liquid explosives. That set off the biggest security alert since the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Police arrested 24 people in connection with the alleged terror plot, although one man was released after it was determined he was an innocent bystander.

Britain's Scotland Yard and MI5 have also said they are aware of at least 30 terrorist cells and potential plots inside Britain.
'Blowing people up is quite cool'

Young Muslims are easy prey, Qadir told CNN, because they believe the British government crackdown has scapegoated them because of their religious beliefs. The youth also can empathize with those who castigate the Bush administration.

There are some who believe "blowing people up is quite cool," Qadir said.

Qadir asked them why that was justified.

"The answers that I got back is: When a bomb goes off in Baghdad or in Afghanistan and innocent women and children are killed over there, who cares for them? So if a bomb goes off in America or in London, what's wrong with that?" he said.

Qadir is trying to get mosque leaders, many still practicing the tribal traditions of Pakistan, to communicate with the younger generation. But he says it is an uphill battle when radicals like Choudary dominate the debate, getting their faces -- and their message -- out in the public.

"Our scholars ... are not coming out of their holes -- their mosques and their holes -- to engage with these people. They're frightened of that," Qadir said.

The message of extremism can also thrive among youth who see no way out of ethnic ghettos.

"They're into all kinds of vices -- street crime, gun crime, drugs, car theft, credit card fraud. But then now you've got another threat," Qadir said.

"The new threat is radicalism. It's a cause. Every young man wants a cause."
Activist calls for Islamic law

Choudary, whose group Al-Mahajiroun disbanded before the British government could outlaw it under its anti-terror laws, spoke to CNN and made clear he wants to see Islamic law for Britain.

"All of the world belongs to Allah, and we will live according to the Sharia wherever we are," said Choudary, a lawyer. "This is a fundamental belief of the Muslims." (Watch a call for Islamic lawVideo)

Asked if he believes in democracy, he said, "No, I don't at all."

"One day, the Sharia will be implemented in Britain. It's a matter of time."

Choudary cited the videotaped "will" of one of the London subway bombers, Mohammed Sidique Khan, who said, "Until you stop the bombing, gassing, imprisonment and torture of my people, we will not stop this fight."

Choudary said he sides strongly with that statement -- "we have everything we need in those wills" -- and he cited passages from the Muslim holy book, the Quran, that he says justify jihad.

"I happen to be in an ideological and political war," Choudary said. "My brothers in al Qaeda and other Mujahedeen are involved in a military campaign."

While Choudary and other radicals continue to try to spread their beliefs, others say there is no justification for jihad in England. Imam Usama Hasan memorized the Quran by the time he was 11 and at 19, he briefly fought in Afghanistan against the Soviets.

"If you have the wrong intention, you can justify your criminal actions from any text -- whether it's the Quran or Bible or Shakespeare," Hasan said.

He said it makes him "furious" when radicals quote the Quran out of context to justify killing of innocents. It's a "very tiny" minority with such beliefs, he said, but "it only takes a handful, of course, to create devastation."

"Many people are terrified of Muslims. They are terrified of a brother walking down the road with his eastern dress and his hat and his beard, because they have seen these images associated with suicide bombers," he said.

"It is up to us to dispel that fear -- to smile at people to tell them that ... the message of Islam is not about bits of cloth. It is not about the beard or head scarf or the face veil or violence. It is about peace."



Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/17/warwithin.overview/index.html

[DaHood]

Extremists of any group seem to me to always be given the loudest voice in the media.

[markalot]

Extremists of any group seem to me to always be given the loudest voice in the media.

Very true.

[the happy prole]

I ask again, is Islam mostly moderates or extremists?

Islamic extremists are believed to be a tiny minority of Britain's 1.6 million Muslims.

Islam=mostly moderates
you=mostly a tool

[markalot]

Islam=mostly moderates



Where's the proof?

[akip]

around 27% of the world's population is muslim. it's hard to actually judge who's moderate and who's radical, especially in countries where moderates have to keep a lid on it.

you'd also have to define moderate. does moderate mean that they would prefer a secular govt to sharia law? or does moderate mean that they don't believe in waging violent jihad against all infidels? big difference.

[DaHood]

or does moderate mean that they don't believe in waging violent jihad against all infidels?I believe that most people in general abhor killing other people.

[markalot]

around 27% of the world's population is muslim. it's hard to actually judge who's moderate and who's radical, especially in countries where moderates have to keep a lid on it.

you'd also have to define moderate. does moderate mean that they would prefer a secular govt to sharia law? or does moderate mean that they don't believe in waging violent jihad against all infidels? big difference.

To me moderate just means they don't think blowing people up is a way to 'win'. Moderate means they don't think the world must be Muslim.

Deep down I think extremists are small in number, but I really would like to see the proof.

[Predot listener]

Where's the proof?


A poll taken in June 2006 for the Times of London newspaper suggested that 13 percent of British Muslims believe the July 7 London bombers were martyrs.

While obviously much depends on your definitions of moderate and extremist, the poll suggests that extremists represent a small minority of British Muslims. It's not proof, but it's certainly more evidence than anything offered to the contrary.

[DaHood]

How strong is that belief?
Try asking twenty people around you what it would take to get them to kill another human being.

My belief is very strong.

[Predot listener]

Try asking twenty people around you what it would take to get them to kill another human being.

My belief is very strong.


Even though I tend to agree with your original statement, I think there's a difference between it and what you said here (at least compared to how I interpreted your original statement).

I imagine (hope?) that while the vast majority of humans would recoil at the idea of killing another human, fewer would be opposed to the more abstract idea of someone else killing someone else. I find both deplorable, but I imagine that those with radical beliefs may be opposed to personally taking a life but would support others who do it in the name of the cause.

[the happy prole]

To me moderate just means they don't think blowing people up is a way to 'win'. Moderate means they don't think the world must be Muslim.

Deep down I think extremists are small in number, but I really would like to see the proof.

This is a pretty off-the-cuff, but I'm going to take a conservative guess that maybe 200 Muslims have died at the hands of non-Muslims for every non-Muslim killed Muslims in the last 15 or so years.

Proof enough?

[DaHood]

I imagine (hope?) that while the vast majority of humans would recoil at the idea of killing another human, fewer would be opposed to the more abstract idea of someone else killing someone else.I can't disagree with that, but I still think most people don't like killing at all.

[DaHood]

This is a pretty off-the-cuff, but I'm going to take a conservative guess that maybe 200 Muslims have died at the hands of non-Muslims for every non-Muslim killed Muslims in the last 15 or so years.

Proof enough?You say that your statement is 'off the cuff' then you ask if that's 'proof enough'. It isn't proof of anything.

[Predot listener]

I can't disagree with that, but I think still most people don't like killing at all.


Agreed. I just imagine the percentages are slightly different.

[DaHood]

Agreed. I just imagine the percentages are slightly different.
Also agreed.

[the happy prole]

You say that your statement is 'off the cuff' then you ask if that's 'proof enough'. It isn't proof of anything.

Well no one really knows how many people die in genocides. So I just went with 200,000 Muslims were killed in Bosnia, 100,000 Muslims have been killed in Chechnya which seem to be the most quoted figures I've read in reputable sources.

3000 died in 9/11. So that's 100 to 1. I can't think of any other major events. I left the Kurds out because I'm not sure Hussein is really Muslim, and besides most Kurds are Muslims themselves, if only moderately so.

If I'm really, REALLY wrong, it's like 10 to 1 which is still a ridiculous figure if you want to Muslims to justify themselves as non-extremists.

[the happy prole]

Dont forget the Muslim vs. Muslim violence.

Yeah, but then I'd have to include non-Muslim vs. Non-Muslim violence in there and toss in like a million deaths for Rwanda and Darfur.

[Shlep]

I think one of the inherent difficulties in dealing with radical Islamic fundamentalism comes when governments and individuals actually take these idiots seriously when seeking solutions to the problem.

According to the fundies (and their sympathetic moderate brethren) the trouble is "foreign policy." This, I guess, refers to support for Israel, particularly coming from the US; funny thing is that the billions the US shells out to Muslim countries doesn't seem to buy any sort forgiveness or balance the ideological book sin our favor very much.

They also refer to (as in the article) Muslims being killed in Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc etc etc. Begging your pardon, Mr. Frothing Radical, but who was killing Muslims in Afghanistan before the US, Britain, and our allies besides showed up in Afghanistan? That would be Muslisms, specifically radical fundie Muslims...I'm pretty sure the public beating, stonings, mutilations, and dismemberments that were a daily occurance under Taliban rule have largely disappeared since we showed up and cleaned house.

And in Iraq? If you said "Muslims," particularly secular Sunni Ba'athist Muslims, give yourself 10 points. Saddams' paranoia, porgoms, personal vendettas, and self-serving wars slaughtered hunreds of thousands, maybe even millions, of Iraqis. Tack on another 10 if you actually watch the news and see who is bombing the mosques, the hospitals, the schools, the police stations, and the utility infrastructure of Iraq will killing all the Mohammed Q. Public type Iraqis and foreign contractors working to resume things like water, electrical, phone, and Internet service (the intermittant or non-existent nature of these things also, appaprently, being a major producer of anti-Western anger in Iraq). Ditto the oil production; Iraq is, or should I say "was," a net oil-exporter. The country will never recover and regain its prior status as a First World country worth living in until oil production returns to pre-war levels; thanks the the insurgents, Iraq has become an oil importer. And America (and "the West") take the blame.

Meanwhile, the US spends billions aiding Islamic countries. US troops drove Iraqis out of Kuwait and ended the brutal annexation, pillage, rape, and torture in that country. US troops intervened in Somalia and supplanted UN forces (such as the large contingent from Islamic country Pakistan) who were standing around in their typical UN response posture (poker-faced, with their thumbs up their asses) for the purpose of ending deliberate genocide by Somali (read: Muslim) warlords and their clan fighters which claimed almost a half a billion innocent Muslims and ended when the Somali Muslims directly responsible for the misery (backed by Al Queda fighters on a mission from Allah) fought with US troops, killing a couple dozen of them and dragging some of their battered bodies through the streets. US Marines and French paratroops entered Lebanon in 1982 to prevent the Israelis from slaughtering retreating PLO fighters, an errand for which the locals (who went ahead and assumed the Western troops were there backing up the Israelis regardless) thanked them by bombing their barracks within 30 seconds of each other, killing and wounding French and US troops by the dozen. The US also ensured Yassir Arafat would be able to elude Israel and escape to Tunisia in 1984, and prevented Israel (who supposedly use the US and their lapdog and stooge) from wiping out Egypt twice in twenty years.

In fact, most of the misery in the Islamic world is directly the result of other Muslims; fatuous Islamic dictatorships that are corrupt to the core and who control the media to varying degrees from "suppression" to "monopolistic control" and punish dissent and free expression with jail or worse feed their populations anti-American/anti-Western/anti-Zionist drivel on a daily basis, abetted by their willing buddies in the radical clergy. Worse still, these shitstains emigrate to the very West that they claim to hate and use our decadent, infidel freedoms as a platform to preach hatred against us and exhort their followers to kill us.

Do I believe the majority of Muslims are radicals with blood in their eyes and a death wish? No, not any more than I think all Christians want everyone who isn't to go to Hell. But listening to what madmen have to say and taking heed of their madness as some sort of cue as to what we can do to fix things is every bit as crazy as global jihad.

[the happy prole]

I pretty much agree with you shlep. But I'll just emphasize that a lot of these guys don't really view the other Muslim sects as true Muslim believers. After all, they're killing a lot more of them than they are anyone else. So it's not just that they're being hypocrites.

I'm sure you're aware of this, and were only following the context of the thread. But grouping all Muslims together is part of the reason why most people in the US are clueless and why our policy in the Mideast has been so bumbling.

It's a vast oversimplification to simply divide the Muslim community into moderates vs extremists. The extremist Muslims kill each other (as do extremist Christians). If I went up to a Christian and said "Hey, you're just like Slobodan Milosevic or Putin-- just more moderate" I imagine they would be pretty pissed. And rightly so.

It's flat-out offensively ridiculous that we are even asking whether Muslims are moderate or extreme, much less requiring "proof."

[markalot]

It's flat-out offensively ridiculous that we are even asking whether Muslims are moderate or extreme, much less requiring "proof."

Perhaps, but aren't all christians usually lumped together? We should be pretty familiar with christians.

[the happy prole]

Not really. And anyone who tries to lump Christians together gets a pretty bad tongue-lashing (often with you near the head of charge, perhaps you should think about that).

Just ask the average American about 9/11 and I'll bet they'll say "Radical Muslim extremists executed a terror attack" if you're lucky. If you're not you'll get "Muslims hate Christians."

Now ask that same person about Bosnia and you'll probably hear "The Serbs killed people in Bosnia" or maybe "that madman Milosevic committed genocide." Hardly anyone is aware of the religious aspect to that war. And people probably don't even know what's happening in Chechnya, much less that that is also a Christian vs. Muslim war.

Part of it is probably some unconscious bigotry but a lot of it is that it 9/11 happened to us. And it was intentionally done to draw as much attention as possible, whereas Milosevic pretty much tried to bury what he was doing.

What's interesting to me is that we haven't really been priority #1. It's good pub to strike fear into the most powerful nation in the world, but the war is really happening in the Mideast and Eastern Europe. We don't seem terribly concerned with the fact that perhaps the major threat is radical Islam spilling over and creating havoc in Europe via Turkey. That's what I'd do, anyway. Send troops and money over to Cechnya, see if I could get my hands on some old Soviet nukes via the blackmarket.

Maybe that's a good thing. It's really hard to do much damage to the most powerful nation on Earth from an ocean away. If we insert ourselves a public enemy #1 maybe they devote all their resources to somewhat fruitlessly attacking us.

[Jumpman]

But grouping all Muslims together is part of the reason why most people in the US are clueless and why our policy in the Mideast has been so bumbling.


This is a good point and touches on an academic lecture that was just given in my department today about "black muslim" identity in Britain's Arab community. First of all, I use the scare quotes because most British Arabs dislike the label "Black Muslim" because of the connotation it receives in the media and the conflation of Arab to Muslim. Not all Arabs are Muslim and not all Muslims are Arabs. The British Arabs number between 400K to 500K out of 1.6 Million muslims in Britain while the rest come mostly from Non-Arab places such as South Asia (Pakistan). According to this woman's research this group is quite uncomfortable with the politicizaiton of Islam (and religion) in general. And although her research was with Arabs (who are often well-off) I'm sure you will find a sizable population among South Asian Muslims that feel the same way.

The bottom line is that these attitudes are quite "moderate" by any measure. It also reflects that there are vital class concerns that are often ignored because people (and the media) get so fixated on religion. Is religion part of the equation. Yes , but it doesn't make up the whole story. The ways in which people are socialized in Britain and their class backgrounds tell a huge part of the story.

[kitsune]

Religious fundamentalism is justified in the same way moderate religion is justified: through faith. The problem is that "faith" makes it legitimate to believe in anything, whether it be something moderate or something extreme, because it allows one to believe things without sufficient evidence or even any reason at all. The fact that moderates would endorse this type of thinking lends credibility to the fundamentalist view. They can't criticize a fundamentalist because they, too, operate according to faith, and have no basis for criticizing extremism inside the constraints of a faith-based epistemology.

The evils committed by fundamentalists (be they Christian, Muslim, etc.) stem from the fact that, in their metaphysical world view, the consequences of their actions in the real world can be ignored and rationalized away by believing in things that have no evidence. Moderates are only good people who think and operate in a rational manner to the extent that they DON'T behave in accordance with their religion, since there is nothing in the Qur'an or Bible that makes claims such as "People who aren't religious can still be good people and go to Heaven" or "Freedom of religion is important" or "The world should be investigated in a logical manner". There are of course several passages that directly oppose all of those ideas. This would lead one to question, of course, why they should remain religious at all.

[markalot]

Amanpour: Brit radicals shock me

By Christiane Amanpour
CNN Chief International Correspondent

Editor's note: In our Behind the Scenes series, CNN correspondents share their experiences covering the news and analyze the stories behind events. Christiane Amanpour describes the people she met while making "The War Within."

LONDON, England (CNN) -- When we reported the unprecedented suicide bombings of the London underground trains and buses in 2005, we were shocked beyond words that young British Muslims, born and bred here, would go to that extreme.

We could not understand what would drive them to kill themselves and their fellow citizens.

And so we started to investigate what we call "The War Within."

What struck us most was how deeply the Iraq war has radicalized today's generation of young Muslims in Britain. Whether extreme or mainstream, they are angry about the war, angry that their country so devotedly follows U.S. foreign policy, angry at what they see as a worldwide war against Muslims and Islam.

A man who runs a youth center in a London neighborhood with a large Muslim population said the message of extremism preys on many kids who see no way out of their ethnic ghettos. Those youth, he said, have always had vices -- street crime, drugs, car thefts.

"But then now you've got another threat," Hanif Qadir told me.

"The new threat is radicalism. It's a cause. Every young man wants a cause."

We knew much of the Islamic world feels like this, but we were surprised at the extent of these feelings in Britain. (Audio slide show: Preying on young British Muslims)

The UK was rocked by the attacks of July 7, 2005 and the attempted attacks that failed two weeks later. Since then, Britons have many questions about the role of the Muslim community here.

In our investigation, we found shocking evidence of the bigotry, intolerance and hatred preached by some Muslim fundamentalists in the UK. We met men like Anjem Choudary of the now-banned Al-Mahajiroon extremist group, who denounces democracy and predicts Britain will be ruled by Sharia, Islamic law.

He publicly distances himself from suicide bombings here in the UK, mindful of Britain's tough new anti-terrorism laws, yet we filmed him openly condoning violent Jihad abroad.

"I happen to be in an ideological and political war," Choudary said. "My brothers in al Qaeda and other Mujahedeen are involved in a military campaign." (Watch a call for Islamic law in BritainVideo)

And this week, a report in the London Sunday Times says Choudary has been using a false name on a password-protected Web site to incite Muslims to go to Somalia to wage holy war.

Some mosques in Britain, while publicly agreeing to cross-cultural tolerance, in fact sometimes host preachers from both Britain and abroad who rail with hatred against "kafirs" (infidels), against homosexuals, against democracy and even against women.

This hate-speech and the attempt by extremists to recruit young disaffected Muslims on London's deprived streets and even on university campuses is beginning to motivate the "other voices of Islam" to try to seize back their religion, which they say has been hijacked. (Watch moderate Muslims fight backVideo)

Extremists and radicals are very adept at playing the media's game. Even though they are a minority, a small number of them can gather on a corner, hold a protest or demonstration and get a massive amount of media attention and air time. That's because today's mostly tabloid media culture in the UK has sensationalized the "Muslim issue" and focuses only on the extremists, rarely finding the facts, context and texture beneath the surface.

We found a deep sense of Islamophobia on the rise here in Britain and across Europe. The European Monitoring Center, which tracks religious and ethnic bias, says Muslims regularly face abuse, threats, attacks and misunderstanding.

And as we discovered talking to a cross section of Muslims around Britain, many of Europe's 13 million Muslims said that since 9/11 they have been made to feel like terrorists. More than ever they feel like second-class citizens in their own countries.

There are incredibly brave Muslims who've been forced to become unofficial activists for tolerance and integration. In Walthamstow -- where two dozen young Muslim men were arrested last summer for allegedly plotting to blow up U.S.-bound planes with liquid explosives -- Qadir, the youth worker, has reached out to teenagers.

His youth center now tries to lead the disaffected and alienated along a different path, urging them to watch out for extremist preachers in their mosques and arranging pool tournaments with the beat cops as one way to forge a closer community bond.

In Birmingham, home to Britain's second-largest Muslim community, a Muslim artist nicknamed "Aerosol Arabic" is trying to be a role model to students and the angry young people in his community. Along with a priest he is doing cross-cultural art projects that build a sense of acceptance and togetherness.

While some Muslim women in the UK are feeling the intense pressure of a chorus of ministerial calls to remove their niqabs, a veil that covers most of the face, we meet one Muslim woman, a comedian, who is trying to promote tolerance through a unique brand of comedy-club humor.

As a small band of Muslim extremists try to promote their agenda at a campus debate at prestigious Trinity College, we traveled to Ireland to hear mainstream Muslims try to win back the public podium. One young Muslim calls the violence and intolerance some extremists promote a mental illness, not an ideology.

While Britain's Scotland Yard and MI5 intelligence service regularly warn of Islamist cells plotting violence -- some 30 potential plots have been identified -- some Muslim preachers, activists and ordinary people are beginning to see that they have to take the responsibility of seizing back their religion from the small band of extremists who have hijacked it.

Increasingly we found mainstream Muslims are realizing that they can no longer be quiet, but they have to stand up to have any hope of winning back the debate from the extremists who dominate it now.

The question is whether they can form a critical mass of voices to finally drown out the growing ranks of extremists.



Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/17/warwithin.amanpour/index.html