Cracker Barrel lives up to name

[gwar469]

i'm sure a bigger deal is being made over this because it's Chris Rock's mom, but this isn't the first time this restaurant chain has acted like fuckwads.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/Movies/10/18/chrisrockmom.discrimin.ap/index.html

[dannyboy]

I don't think race is the issue. I think incompetence is. While at a Cracker Barrel in Florida last year, I had to wait 45 minutes from the time I was seated until having my order taken.

[the_birds]

Maybe Chris Rock should just buy Cracker Barrel. Then, he could name it "Cracker Ass Cracker Barrel."

Seriously though, when Denny's got into that major flap about not serving black people, Hakeem Olajuwon, proceeded to buy loads of Denny's. At one point, he owned the most Denny's of all of their Franchisers, like 95 or something.

Olajuwon is a ridiculously successful businessman. He's become a respected, very astute, Real Estate Mogul.

[weeone]

Good point, birds.

And what was she doing at cracker barrel anyway :eek: I loathe the thought of being in the middle of anywhere, usa, and having my only meal options being between cracker barrel and mcdonalds. Well, I am forgetting that whatever gas station that is undoubtedly nearby has combos and gatorade, and that is probably more nutritious/uncontaminated.

In conclusion, Chris Rock should buy Mars and Pepsi.

[ORFFYREUS]

Just one more reason I'll never eat at Cracker Barrel. :p

[upwithpeople]

"He never called over the waitresses and asked, 'Why did these people sit here for a half hour without service?' " she said. "The only thing he said was we could have a free meal and neither of us wanted to eat."

...

The Rev. Al Sharpton will join Rock on Wednesday in South Carolina to announce that Sharpton's Action Network will finance the planned lawsuit."There are not enough adjectives for stupid to describe this.

[ThomasC]

Maybe Chris Rock should just buy Cracker Barrel. Then, he could name it "Cracker Ass Cracker Barrel."

Seriously though, when Denny's got into that major flap about not serving black people, Hakeem Olajuwon, proceeded to buy loads of Denny's. At one point, he owned the most Denny's of all of their Franchisers, like 95 or something.

Olajuwon is a ridiculously successful businessman. He's become a respected, very astute, Real Estate Mogul.
Hakeem's brother, Akinola, did business with Denny's, not Hakeem himself. Akinola's business filed for bankrupcy 21 months after the transaction, but it's not clear who is at fault.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2001/0528/078.html

[shivvy]

Even though I love their biscuits and gravy, I haven't eaten at Cracker Barrel in the better part of a decade because of their history of discrimination against gay and lesbian employees. Supposedly that has officially changed for the chain, but I've never seen any reason to go back to giving them my business. (My family went there a lot when I was younger.)

ETA -- from the wikipedia entry on the chain:
In 1991, Cracker Barrel instituted a policy requiring employees to display "normal heterosexual values which have been the foundation of families in our society." The company refused to change their policy in the face of protest demonstrations by gay rights groups, but in 2002, the company's stockholders voted to rescind the practice after ten years of efforts by the New York City Employees Retirement System, a major shareholder.

[purdueman_in]

Word, Shiv.

Their history of such behaviour is long, and they don't deserve my $$$.

And, btw, Ms. Purdueman's biscuits and gravy are better. If you are ever in Indy...

[weeone]

That's another thing. Not only do I have little confidence in the culinary strengths of Cracker Barrel, but before they instituted their wonderful hetero-model, their employees were always fruitin' around, leaving my faux Thanksgiving dinner special under the heatlamps for an hour while I starved to death.

[gwar469]

ETA -- from the wikipedia entry on the chain:
In 1991, Cracker Barrel instituted a policy requiring employees to display "normal heterosexual values which have been the foundation of families in our society." The company refused to change their policy in the face of protest demonstrations by gay rights groups, but in 2002, the company's stockholders voted to rescind the practice after ten years of efforts by the New York City Employees Retirement System, a major shareholder.

normal heterosexual values...well, it you consider >50% normal, then i guess you'd be required to ignore your significant other, commit adultry, or anything else to get a divorce while on the job. or if you consider my values normal for a heterosexual, the world is in deep shit... ;)

[Slar]

My boss likes Cracker Barrel and I have to go with him sometimes. Nevermind the nice steak house down the road.

[the_birds]

Hakeem's brother, Akinola, did business with Denny's, not Hakeem himself. Akinola's business filed for bankrupcy 21 months after the transaction, but it's not clear who is at fault.

Hakeem was a large investor, I am pretty sure. He and his brothers still own a car wash in a nice part of town here. They probably ran up the corporate accounts and then filed bankruptcy. Its a nice write off.

[jcarwash31]

Hakeem was a large investor, I am pretty sure. He and his brothers still own a car wash in a nice part of town here. They probably ran up the corporate accounts and then filed bankruptcy. Its a nice write off.
Did they serve "Dream Shakes"?

[Juliana]

CB has the most amazing chicken taco soup during the summer. It's unreal.

I don't go other than a couple of times during the summer for that soup though.

They're grossly incompetent. They always make you wait, regardless of what race you are.

[jvk]

They're grossly incompetent. They always make you wait, regardless of what race you are.
I've been to a Cracker Barrel once, and felt they were more interested in getting me to buy one of those useless Ballerina/Angel/Puppy Musicbox/Snow-globe/Hope-chest pieces of crap with "I love my Daddy" painted/stitched/egraved on it, than they were in bringing me my pork chop and green beans.

Never again.

Plus, I can't get a beer with my dinner. What gives?

[monkey neck]

"The only thing he said was we could have a free meal and neither of us wanted to eat."

Of course you went there to eat. It's a restaurant!

If I could sue every restaurant that gave me bad service, I'd be a rich man. :rolleyes:

There is a CB in Florida that my wife and I went to on our honeymoon and it was on a road called Cracker Crossing. I got out of the car and had my wife take a picture of me crossing the road.

[BigSugar]

Hell, i usually spend more time that that just trying to get a seat!! and then i have to pretend that all the kitschy crap in the shop is interesting while i wait....and there's always two dopey, unwashed redneck kids trying to eat the damn checkers so i can't even play that! bastards! i'm suing too!

but damn is that Grandpa's Breakfast goooooooooooooood!!!!!! bottomless biscuits and gravy.....chicken fried chicken (i have no idea, so don't ask....it's fried and it's good! it could be beaks and assholes for all i know!) and the cheesy hashbrown casserole!!

that's it......i'm puttin' on my hood and headin' to the Cracker Ass Barrell for dinner!

Clayton Bigsby

[classicgrrl]

I think Dannyboy is correct - not racism just plain incompentance. Cracker Barrel is a horribly run business.

and I'm sorry but every breakfast I've ever gotten there has just been GROSS. Their eggs are always runny and there is no excuse in the entire freakin' universe for runny eggs.

Can't STAND runny eggs.
:mad: :eek:

[justmaybetiger]

I've been in Cracker Barrels before. Never actually sat down and ate anything though... The lines are always so huge when I go that I usually end up finding somewhere else to eat. Maybe it's not discrimination is this case, they just might not give a fuck about anyone. :confused:

[winston thrane]

There is no way this would even be a story if it wasn't Chris Rock's mom. It sure doesn't help that the place is called Cracker Barrel either!

It probably wasn't racist, just shitty service. Anyone who has been to that place can tell you that. But I'll bet the manager was pissed "you made who wait a half an hour because you didn't know that was your table???...awwwfuck!! Did you even watch that video we showed you at orientation?"

[jvk]

..."Did you even watch that video we showed you at orientation?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Best post of the thread!

[Emperor Wog]

I sat at a table next to Bootsy Collins at a Cracker Barrel in Milford.

Ok, that is all I have to contribute.

[rcc94]

One of the few restaurants my family went to when I was a small child was the original restaurant.
http://www.crackerbarrel.com/images/history_cb1.jpg

Random trivia - the stores also sold gasoline until the mid seventies. That original store is now only a gas station.

I remember driving by the flagship store my senior year of high school (1989-1990) on Sunday morning and seeing the protesters - who were quite common back then.

[weeone]

confession : I kind of like the golf tee genius game. But I never figure it out. I think I'm always left with like with 5 tees or something. I believe that means I'm an ignoramus.

[twentyshots]

here weeone, now you can play at home (but you should still be shoeless)

http://www.crackerbarrel.com/games/game_peg/easypeg.html

[weeone]

of course, I get "you're pretty smart" on the first time. total frippin fluke. Normally, I'm an ignoramus, swear. Awesome find though, 20. Adore you.

[emmanuellewis]

cracker barrel is some kick ass food. the store before you get to the food, however, is a shithole. time never moves slower than when you are in that place. plus you can never move because there is no space and you have to make your way through an obstacle course of old people to make it anywhere.

[weeone]

I'm sorry if your houses are like this but it reminds me (the store) of those cinnamon smelling houses with pig decorations or cow decorations on the walls and baskets all over and ... apples. There are always apples in those kinds of houses. Sometimes it's geese or ducks, and the bathroom is sailboats or nautical. Also, the patio is more finished than the basement. Often taxidermy.

[Duemellon]

I find it quirky that for most people in the majority, the possibility of it being race-based is remote or dismissed as the least likely reason for the action. Citing generally bad service or bad employees is the 1st reaction. Whereas I'm ready to acknowledge there is a problem with customer service in general is it too much to imagine that they experienced something even worse?

I"m not saying they did, but one thing to be certain is you personally will rarely, if ever, experience racism. To understand how it looks & feels will take some active exploration into the way it "comes down", not just a cursory glance.

Just as someone who experiences racism consistently would never be able to understand what it's like to rarely if ever experience it without actively investigating.

In no way does this mean "It's a <insert descriptor here> thing, you can't understand". I'm saying "It's a <insert descriptor here>, you can understand if you want."

[winston thrane]

I've waited lengthy amounts of time in restaurants where it seems like the waitress just forgot about me, but I am a white male, if I was a black male should I just assume it's because I am black? Racism exists that's for sure but should you jump to that conclusion first?

[upwithpeople]

I find it quirky that for most people in the majority, the possibility of it being race-based is remote or dismissed as the least likely reason for the action. Citing generally bad service or bad employees is the 1st reaction. Whereas I'm ready to acknowledge there is a problem with customer service in general is it too much to imagine that they experienced something even worse?

I"m not saying they did, but one thing to be certain is you personally will rarely, if ever, experience racism. To understand how it looks & feels will take some active exploration into the way it "comes down", not just a cursory glance.

Just as someone who experiences racism consistently would never be able to understand what it's like to rarely if ever experience it without actively investigating.

In no way does this mean "It's a <insert descriptor here> thing, you can't understand". I'm saying "It's a <insert descriptor here>, you can understand if you want."Why do you presume that because this is a message board for indie rock that everyone here is a cracker? In no way does this mean "It's a <insert descriptor here> thing, you can't understand". I'm saying "It's a <insert descriptor here>, you can understand if you want."

[miami2112]

last time in a cracker barrell, in cairo IL, we waited for damn near an hour for our food. fortunately, there are NOT many up here in mich.

due, i get your point.

i just hope they were incompetant, and not racists.


edit to add the "not"

[Predot listener]

Originally posted by winston thrane
I've waited lengthy amounts of time in restaurants where it seems like the waitress just forgot about me, but I am a white male, if I was a black male should I just assume it's because I am black? Racism exists that's for sure but should you jump to that conclusion first?

I would imagine there are times when minorities can sense theiy're being ignored because of their race and other times when they'd just pass it off to piss-poor service. In either case they might be wrong, but if they've actually experienced racism on numerous occasions, they likely develop a sense for when it's happening.

Of course, I'm not a minority (or more accurately, I've infrequently been in a situation where I was the minority), so feel free to correct this WAG.

[Duemellon]

Why do you presume that because this is a message board for indie rock that everyone here is a <insert stupid-ass word meant to be incendiary>?Listen, you dumbsunovabich. I didn't call anyone a fucking "cracker". Furthermore I didn't even say "everyone". Goddamnit, you're a prick. Go fuck yourself with a rusted muffler.

People like you are small minded closet racists waiting to defend your pea-sized myopic view vehemently without considering the possibiliy you're fucking wrong.

Stupid cromag nosepicking imbicile. Rot in Hell or wherever you & your Klan-type people spawn.

If this thread gets locked it simpleton muthafuckers like you who think racial slurks are cool & witty.

UpWithPeople my ass. You should be named DownWithDecency.

[Hogarth]

Even though I love their biscuits and gravy, I haven't eaten at Cracker Barrel in the better part of a decade because of their history of discrimination against gay and lesbian employees. Supposedly that has officially changed for the chain, but I've never seen any reason to go back to giving them my business. (My family went there a lot when I was younger.)

ETA -- from the wikipedia entry on the chain:
In 1991, Cracker Barrel instituted a policy requiring employees to display "normal heterosexual values which have been the foundation of families in our society." The company refused to change their policy in the face of protest demonstrations by gay rights groups, but in 2002, the company's stockholders voted to rescind the practice after ten years of efforts by the New York City Employees Retirement System, a major shareholder.

I stopped eating there just because the food was bad and over priced.

[Dumb Hick]

Go fuck yourself with a rusted muffler.

That may be the best darn thing I ever read. I'm gonna use this one down at the mill. Givin credit to mister mellon of course.

[akip]

i don't think i've ever ventured in a cracker barrel---looks like a jimmy dean sausage dungeon.

[Duemellon]

if I was a black male should I just assume it's because I am black? Racism exists that's for sure but should you jump to that conclusion first?No one said that.

I wonder if the things that were written were being misinterpreted as some expected stance. In no way was that said or suggested & for you to extract that makes me wonder if you're assuming the rest of my stance.

Where did you believe that such an expectation was made in my statement?I would imagine there are times when minorities can sense theiy're being ignored because of their race and other times when they'd just pass it off to piss-poor service. In either case they might be wrong, but if they've actually experienced racism on numerous occasions, they likely develop a sense for when it's happening.One of the things that really must be considered is:

When you are not a minority & in a situation where you are still in the majority, the thought of being racially discriminated (for or against) is so unlikely that even to bring it up would make you ridicule yourself almost. The fact that, as a minority, it is a possibility in those situations.

That's part of the thing, when a majority it's not a possibility. For most in that position it's hard to imagine living in a constant situation where it has to be considered.

[upwithpeople]

Listen, you dumbsunovabich. I didn't call anyone a fucking "cracker". Furthermore I didn't even say "everyone". Goddamnit, you're a prick. Go fuck yourself with a rusted muffler.

People like you are small minded closet racists waiting to defend your pea-sized myopic view vehemently without considering the possibiliy you're fucking wrong.

Stupid cromag nosepicking imbicile. Rot in Hell or wherever you & your Klan-type people spawn.

If this thread gets locked it simpleton muthafuckers like you who think racial slurks are cool & witty.

UpWithPeople my ass. You should be named DownWithDecency.Well, the important things are that you avoid the question and have no sense of humor.

[weeone]

Listen, you dumbsunovabich. I didn't call anyone a fucking "cracker". Furthermore I didn't even say "everyone". Goddamnit, you're a prick. Go fuck yourself with a rusted muffler.

People like you are small minded closet racists waiting to defend your pea-sized myopic view vehemently without considering the possibiliy you're fucking wrong.

Stupid cromag nosepicking imbicile. Rot in Hell or wherever you & your Klan-type people spawn.

If this thread gets locked it simpleton muthafuckers like you who think racial slurks are cool & witty.

UpWithPeople my ass. You should be named DownWithDecency.

Clearly, you are a very thoughtful, rational thread participant. And not at all prone to presumption, yourself. A true asset to the battle of those unfortunate souls blighted by the racism plague.

Compared to genocide in Rwanda, for one example, or ethnic cleansing in Bosnia, for another example, or the entire Gaza strip conflict, to cite yet another example, I'm just hesistant to say that waiting for fucking forever to eat shit food in a dodgy greasy spoon corporation constitutes racism. Even in the US, there are far more serious crimes against non-White citizens. Seriously.

But then, I'm sure I'm an asshole, and I don't understand, nor will I ever, what you, duemellon, endure every day of your life.

[OldManIndieKid]

I love Cracker Barrel. I eat there every Sunday after I attend service at Westboro Baptist Church to hear Pastor Fred Phelps and his wonderful sermons. And Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is awesome. I buy all my clothes, music and jewelry there. If Wal-Mart would have Cracker Barrels inside of them instead of McDonald's, that would be heaven....

[miami2112]

I love Cracker Barrel. I eat there every Sunday after I attend service at Westboro Baptist Church to hear Pastor Fred Phelps and his wonderful sermons. And Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is awesome. I buy all my clothes, music and jewelry there. If Wal-Mart would have Cracker Barrels inside of them instead of McDonald's, that would be heaven....


i think dumb hick is going to sig this

[winston thrane]

I find it quirky that for most people in the majority, the possibility of it being race-based is remote or dismissed as the least likely reason for the action. Citing generally bad service or bad employees is the 1st reaction. Whereas I'm ready to acknowledge there is a problem with customer service in general is it too much to imagine that they experienced something even worse?


if I was a black male should I just assume it's because I am black? Racism exists that's for sure but should you jump to that conclusion first?


No one said that.

Where did you believe that such an expectation was made in my statement?

You said it was "quirky" that people would think it was bad service 1st. What should they think it is, first?

Sure racism should be considered, but I always give people the benefit of the doubt first. Does Mrs Rock know that she was the only one getting ignored?

[Duemellon]

Well, the important things are that you avoid the question and have no sense of humor.The important thing here is that you understand you're an ass.

I have no sense of humor when it comes to racial slurs & I will not answer the question b/c I'd rather flame out on a junior Aryan nation member like yourself than bother trying to talk about the issue to someone with small minded views like yours.

Furthermore I take great exception to your declaration that I might've even implied I was talking about "crackers" or I even suggested that what I said assumed anything about the race of the reader/audience. Now that you have taken what I've said, reworded it to be something you'd rather fight you didn't even know that it was a view I'd rather fight as well.

But you wouldn't get that.

[upwithpeople]

The important thing here is that you understand you're an ass.

I have no sense of humor when it comes to racial slurs & I will not answer the question b/c I'd rather flame out on a junior Aryan nation member like yourself than bother trying to talk about the issue to someone with small minded views like yours.I find you easy to talk to you, and your ideas are a breath of fresh air. And yet, in lieu of answering a legitimate question, you posit that I fuck myself with "a rusted muffler," which I guess is vaguely clever, but mostly boring and nonsensical. And so far, from what I've seen, representative of its creator.

The question was that you presume that I personally will never experience racism. You have no evidence to judge my ethnicity, especially since I deleted my thread "I'm a Whitey White Cracker-Ass Caucasian." So, are not you being a little presumptuous, perhaps like Rose Rock herself?

In no way does this mean "It's a <insert descriptor here> thing, you can't understand". I'm saying "It's a <insert descriptor here>, you can understand if you want."

[Duemellon]

You said it was "quirky" that people would think it was bad service 1st. What should they think it is, first?

Sure racism should be considered, but I always give people the benefit of the doubt first. Does Mrs Rock know that she was the only one getting ignored?Well, the "quirky" part was trying to express my curiousity to what mechanisms are in place that seems to get those in the majority to dismiss racism so quickly & strongly as an intiial reaction.

In no way did I say it was racism, but I did wonder why it's so far down on the list.

Also, I did not say it was right for someone to assume it's racism 1st. That was something you added in. Unless you see something written in my statement suggesting stuff. I was asking where you got that from because getting into a discussion debating the validity of something I didn't say isn't a worthwhile use of time.

[Duemellon]

I find you easy to talk to you, and your ideas are a breath of fresh air. And yet, in lieu of answering a legitimate question, you posit that I fuck myself with "a rusted muffler," which I guess is vaguely clever, but mostly boring and nonsensical. And so far, from what I've seen, representative of its creator.

The question was that you presume that I personally will never experience racism. You have no evidence to judge my ethnicity, especially since I deleted my thread "I'm a Whitey White Cracker-Ass Caucasian." So, are not you being a little presumptuous, perhaps like Rose Rock herself?

In no way does this mean "It's a <insert descriptor here> thing, you can't understand". I'm saying "It's a <insert descriptor here>, you can understand if you want."What you do NOT understand is your use of the racial slur is the reason for our current tension.

Until you see that, I'll treat you like the personna you took on by doing that & use the following monosyllabic sentence to communicate:

You are dumb. What you say is more dumb. Not smart is you. Fuck off and die.

[winston thrane]

Also, I did not say it was right for someone to assume it's racism 1st. That was something you added in. Unless you see something written in my statement suggesting stuff. I was asking where you got that from because getting into a discussion debating the validity of something I didn't say isn't a worthwhile use of time.


You didn't specifically say it, you are correct, however you did seem to imply it with the statement, "Citing generally bad service or bad employees is the 1st reaction". as if that was not a correct thing to do.

Again, what should the first reaction be then?

[upwithpeople]

What you do NOT understand is your use of the racial slur is the reason for our current tension.

Until you see that, I'll treat you like the personna you took on by doing that & use the following monosyllabic sentence to communicate:

You are dumb. What you say is more dumb. Not smart is you. Fuck off and die.Ok. I'll work with you here. How about now?

I find you easy to talk to you, and your ideas are a breath of fresh air. And yet, in lieu of answering a legitimate question, you posit that I fuck myself with "a rusted muffler," which I guess is vaguely clever, but mostly boring and nonsensical. And so far, from what I've seen, representative of its creator.

The question was that you presume that I personally will never experience racism. You have no evidence to judge my ethnicity, especially since I deleted my thread "I'm Caucasian." So, are not you being a little presumptuous, perhaps like Rose Rock herself?

In no way does this mean "It's a <insert descriptor here> thing, you can't understand". I'm saying "It's a <insert descriptor here>, you can understand if you want."

[jcarwash31]

Well, the "quirky" part was trying to express my curiousity to what mechanisms are in place that seems to get those in the majority to dismiss racism so quickly & strongly as an intiial reaction.

In no way did I say it was racism, but I did wonder why it's so far down on the list.
It's so far down on the list because the article only states that she had to wait, what was it 30-45 minutes, and that she accused them of racism. To me, being virtually ignored for 45 minutes and she being black does not present enough evidence that this is a race based incident. The evidence presented gives a much higher likelyhood that it was shitty service, which white people do experience as well.

Now if there were other statements in the article that pointed toward racism, the first reaction may not be that it was just shitty service.

[aqualou]

as reference to a thread earlier this year . . . this is not how to discuss racism.

ironical ain't it

this racisist remark is not in reference to any specific person and actually comes from my wife (who is not white and says in jest): "i can't be racisist. i'm not white."

[juggles]

I find it quirky that for most people in the majority, the possibility of it being race-based is remote or dismissed as the least likely reason for the action. Citing generally bad service or bad employees is the 1st reaction. Whereas I'm ready to acknowledge there is a problem with customer service in general is it too much to imagine that they experienced something even worse?

I"m not saying they did, but one thing to be certain is you personally will rarely, if ever, experience racism. To understand how it looks & feels will take some active exploration into the way it "comes down", not just a cursory glance.

Just as someone who experiences racism consistently would never be able to understand what it's like to rarely if ever experience it without actively investigating.

In no way does this mean "It's a <insert descriptor here> thing, you can't understand". I'm saying "It's a <insert descriptor here>, you can understand if you want."


I should probably stay out of this but . . .

I think it's worth noting that to the vast majority of the majority, being called a "racist" is deeply insulting. Therefore, I think the standard for leveling such a charge should be fairly high. An anecdote about bad service in a restaurant doesn't meet that standard for me. And it'd be one thing to say that that waiter or even that restaurant was racist. I think most of us are willing to see that as possible or even likely. But taking that to "the Cracker Barrel company is racist" seems like quite a leap without more evidence.

Most white people I know are making a good faith effort to see past the racial stereotypes and give people the benefit of the doubt and we want that to be reciprocated -- "I won't make a knee-jerk assumption about you if you don't make one about me." I don't see that reciprocity in this case.

And as someone who waited tables for years, racism does seem like the least likely explanation. Tables get missed all the time for all sorts of reasons. The president of the franchise company came in our store with his family one night and I missed greeting his table by ten minutes. That was the result of being slammed and understaffed on a Friday night and was completely unrelated to him being an obese white man. When I did have a table I didn't want (usually because they were a regular known to be high-maintenance and low-tipping), I was looking to get rid of them as quickly as possible, not leave them sitting around to complain. In a restaurant like a Cracker Barrel (incidentally, I worked at one a long time ago) the tips are small and you make you money on volume, turning over the tables as quickly as possible. You would never deliberately let somebody sit, taking up a table that you could be making money from.

Editted to add: In the time it took me to write this post, it seems like most of my points have been made by others. I was right. I should have stayed out.

[Predot listener]

Originally posted by jccarwash31
It's so far down on the list because the article only states that she had to wait, what was it 30-45 minutes, and that she accused them of racism. To me, being virtually ignored for 45 minutes and she being black does not present enough evidence that this is a race based incident. The evidence presented gives a much higher likelyhood that it was shitty service, which white people do experience as well.

Now if there were other statements in the article that pointed toward racism, the first reaction may not be that it was just shitty service.

Do you think this is the first time Mrs. Rock experienced shitty service at a restaurant? And does she make a habit of claiming racism everytime she gets such service? Since I doubt the answer to the first question is no and, AFAIK, the answer to the second is also no, then I would guess that something about the experience led Mrs. Rock to that conclusion. Given the rather crappy history Cracker Barrel has with regards to minorities, and given that Mrs. Rock has more first-hand experience with racism both overt and subtle than most of us on the board ever will, I'll grant that Mrs. Rock's conclusion may not have been reached as flimsily as your post surmises.

[weeone]

Do you think this is the first time Mrs. Rock experienced shitty service at a restaurant? And does she make a habit of claiming racism everytime she gets such service? Since I doubt the answer to the first question is no and, AFAIK, the answer to the second is also no, then I would guess that something about the experience led Mrs. Rock to that conclusion. Given the rather crappy history Cracker Barrel has with regards to minorities, and given that Mrs. Rock has more first-hand experience with racism both overt and subtle than most of us on the board ever will, I'll grant that Mrs. Rock's conclusion may not have been reached as flimsily as your post surmises.
Good post, this is true. Plus, we weren't there, we don't know what happened. She could have seen multiple white families enter, get seated, and served before her while she waited. We don't know what the circumstances were. From the story posted in this thread, we don't have much info about what happened. All we know is that she got crappy service and says it's due to racism on the part of Cracker Barrel.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=entertainment&id=4675253


Rose Rock, the mother of comedian Chris Rock, claims she was racially discriminated against when she was seated but ignored for a half hour at a Cracker Barrel restaurant along the South Carolina coast. Rock said she and her 21-year-old daughter were the only black people at the chain's Murrells Inlet restaurant in April. She said when she asked the manager about the delay she was told they could have a free meal. But she complained that the manager never questioned the waiting staff why they did not receive service for half an hour.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2577627

By JAKE TAPPER
Oct. 17, 2006— Civil Rights activist Al Sharpton and Rose Rock, the mother of comedian Chris Rock, will announce Wednesday they may file a lawsuit against the Cracker Barrel restaurant chain for refusing to serve black customers.


The action stems from a May 2006 incident at a Murrells Inlet, S.C., Cracker Barrel restaurant. Rock said "she and her daughter were refused service," Rachel Noerdlinger, a spokesperson for Sharpton, told ABC News. Complaints to the restaurant management and to the South Carolina Human Affairs Commission were not acted on, Noerdlinger said.


Rock, Sharpton and members of Sharpton's National Action Network plan to announce their intention to "fund a lawsuit" in front of the Murrells Inlet Cracker Barrel where Rock alleges the incident took place, Noerdlinger told ABC News.

Julie Davis, spokesperson for Cracker Barrel told ABC News they "…have no information about this incident," but they investigate all discrimination allegations. She would not comment on the possibility of a lawsuit.

"We don't tolerate any form of discrimination, it has always been a part of our policy, it's neither condoned nor tolerated," Davis said. "We take this very seriously," she added.

Cracker Barrel, owned by the CBRL Group, has already settled a 2004 discrimination lawsuit with the U.S. Justice Department.

In that case, the Justice Department alleged that in seven states, Cracker Barrel restaurants segregated customers by race, favored white customers and allowed white servers to refuse to wait on African-American customers.


Cracker Barrel settled and agreed to adopt 42 pages of regulations while admitting no wrongdoing.


The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission that year also sued Cracker Barrel stores in Illinois for sex bias and racial harassment. This year Cracker Barrel entered into a $2 million consent decree to resolve that lawsuit.

More support for Ms. Rock's case. However, why would she eat there. why why why

[Duemellon]

The question was that you presume that I personally will never experience racism.Well, the entire post starts off saying:I find it quirky that for most people in the majority,Using "most" & saying "in the majority". Neither of which is assuming your individual race. In fact, it's talking about the "majority" as being a separate 3rd party to this discussion.

Now, in the post, the discussion still addressing "most" of those who are in the "majority" when it was written:I"m not saying they did, but one thing to be certain is you personally will rarely, if ever, experience racism.It appears to me you took this as meaning you, when in fact, it was addressing the audience already qualified at the beginning of "most" of those in the "majority".

[upwithpeople]

Now, in the post, the discussion still addressing "most" of those who are in the "majority" when it was written:I"m not saying they did, but one thing to be certain is you personally will rarely, if ever, experience racism.It appears to me you took this as meaning you, when in fact, it was addressing the audience already qualified at the beginning of "most" of those in the "majority".Then we are in agreement that your argument was poorly worded. Apology accepted.

[Duemellon]

Then we are in agreement that your argument was poorly worded. Apology accepted.WTF?

OMG. You're kidding right? It was worded fine. Must someone requalify a pronoun every use for it to be followed? Well, I guess you have your crusade you must fight.

[upwithpeople]

WTF?

OMG. You're kidding right? It was worded fine. Must someone requalify a pronoun every use for it to be followed? Well, I guess you have your crusade you must fight.Well, you were speaking about the "majority" using the third person, and then you completed that thought with a period, and issued a line break. Then you switched to the second person, wherein you addressed me, the reader, by using the word "you." That was a little bit of trickery to use on someone like me, who speaks English.

So, yes, I thought we were agreeing that you stumbled on some of the building blocks of effective communication, but I completely forgive you. I thought you were trying to take the high road by admitting your mistake, so we could get back to the topic, which is about C-word Barrel.

[Juliana]

*Huzzah! A racism debate! With Duemellon! And use of the word "cracker" as a racial slur! Huzzah!!*


Wait, back to Ms. Rock for a minute.

There's a huge difference in "having to wait 30-45 minutes" for service, and "being refused service," I think we can at least all agree on that.

Which was it? Seems like one article quoted it one way, and another the other way.

[weeone]

*Huzzah! A racism debate! With Duemellon! And use of the word "cracker" as a racial slur! Huzzah!!*


Wait, back to Ms. Rock for a minute.

There's a huge difference in "having to wait 30-45 minutes" for service, and "being refused service," I think we can at least all agree on that.

Which was it? Seems like one article quoted it one way, and another the other way.
Yeah, it's unclear. The manager offered to serve them a free meal when she complained in one article, yet in another, management did nothing upon her compaints. It's all topsy turvy. Who knows.

[gwar469]

Yeah, it's unclear. The manager offered to serve them a free meal when she complained in one article, yet in another, management did nothing upon her compaints. It's all topsy turvy. Who knows.

i think they waited 30-45 minutes to be waited on, called a manager over asking what the deal was, got offered a free meal, refused, then left.

as far as management not acting on her complaints, i think that refers to the waiter/waitress not being reprimanded on the spot for making Ms. Rock wait. also, Ms. Rock filed a complaint with some restaurant commission. she says they didn't respond, but in another article (the cnn one, i believe), it states the commission finally got around to her complaint and was processing it now. who knows...

[Juliana]

IT would have been HIGHLY unprofessional for the manager to dress the employee down in front of everybody like that.

[gwar469]

IT would have been HIGHLY unprofessional for the manager to dress the employee down in front of everybody like that.

exactly my thoughts. i wondered about this when i first read the article -- why Ms. Rock wanted the manager to berate the employee in front of everyone. the manager offered an apology and a free meal, which is all the more he can really do in that situation.

there could have been something deeper and more sinister than just poor service in this instance, but i wonder if Ms. Rock pulled a "I'm Chris Rock's mom!" moment, and the story is being grossly exaggerated.

[weeone]

the story is being grossly exaggerated.
bing ging ging :D

I fink so.

[purple_octopus]

IT would have been HIGHLY unprofessional for the manager to dress the employee down in front of everybody like that.
I agree with this. Whether or not the employee acted inappropriately, I don't know. But if the manager offered to seat them right away and comp their meal, I think he handled the situation as best he could. Having worked in the hospitality industry, I've noticed that people (consumers) are usually at their worst when they are going out to eat, getting a hotel room, shopping, etc. I always addressed/corrected complaints right away, but took them with a grain of salt once the customer was gone.

[the_birds]

There really wasn't much the manager could do at that point.

For the life of me, I can't understand why someone didn't wait on them. 30 minutes without service? I don't think that's possible, without a conscious effort to ignore them. Which constitutes the racism charge.

While I've never been to a Cracker Barrel (I make a conscious effort to avoid racist enterprises) if they've got SO much business, why don't they consider hiring more competent servers? Not to mention, I live in the city and I don't want to drive 40 out of town to eat. If there's money to be made, you would think they could afford to pick and choose people on whether they're decent at what they do.

The company might want to have a company-wide mandate on having a floor manager whose express responsibility is to make sure everyone gets service. At least until they can get their managers some sensitivity and or competence classes.

[purple_octopus]

I can definitely see racism as a possible cause of this. I mean, it *is* Cracker Barrel. But every time I've been in one, there are a million people in the country store area, and you have to usually wait in line to get your name on the list, and then you have to keep checking back every 15 minutes or so to make sure they didn't call your name at an inaudible level (because you're in the noisy country store area full of people and can't hear shit anyway) and then move on to the next person. All around crappy service. I could see it either way.

[Nellie Bly]

For the life of me, I can't understand why someone didn't wait on them. 30 minutes without service? I don't think that's possible, without a conscious effort to ignore them. Which constitutes the racism charge.

Short staffing and poor management could be to blame. If you're ever in Cincy, I'll take you to the Oakley IHOP - 45 minutes to get seated, another 45 to get drinks/order, another 45 to actually get your food which is burnt. We went to another IHOP in town and were served by a guy who used to work at the Oakley store but transferred to one of the new stores by the hoity toity mall--he told us they had to retrain him before they'd let him go to work at the new store. The guy became one of their best servers (we request him everytime we go there). Sometimes, it's just crappy management and poor training.

[juggles]

For the life of me, I can't understand why someone didn't wait on them. 30 minutes without service? I don't think that's possible, without a conscious effort to ignore them.

It's very possible if the server who should have been taking care of them thought they were somebody else's table.

And I'm a little suspicious of their estimate of the length of time. At most restaurants I worked at, we marked the time on every ticket when it went in the kitchen. I commonly had customers insist that they'd been waiting on their order for 30 minutes or more when I could prove that it had been no more than 15.

[aqualou]

i was waiting with 3 other people and another group of two @ champ's sports bar @ downtown cincinnati. it wasn't crowded and we waited 15 minted just to be seated. after no success, we all left.

i thought that the staff just didn't give a shit, but now that i think of it, most of us were white and most of the staff was black . . . were we discriminated against? . . . wait wait . . . couldn't be . . . whites are waited on hand and foot . . . we must have been in a different dimension.

[winston thrane]

Who just sits and sits and sits for 30 minutes without saying something? It usually takes me less than 10 minutes to say, "excuse me, can we get a server here?" or something along those lines.

My bet is that the servers mixed up tables and thought it was the other servers table. It happens all the time in a busy place like that.

[Handy Smurf]

I find it quirky that for most people in the majority, the possibility of it being race-based is remote or dismissed as the least likely reason for the action. Citing generally bad service or bad employees is the 1st reaction. Whereas I'm ready to acknowledge there is a problem with customer service in general is it too much to imagine that they experienced something even worse?

I"m not saying they did, but one thing to be certain is you personally will rarely, if ever, experience racism. To understand how it looks & feels will take some active exploration into the way it "comes down", not just a cursory glance.

Just as someone who experiences racism consistently would never be able to understand what it's like to rarely if ever experience it without actively investigating.

In no way does this mean "It's a <insert descriptor here> thing, you can't understand". I'm saying "It's a <insert descriptor here>, you can understand if you want."
I certainly wouldnt dismiss the possibility of it being racism, but I think most people's reactions were based on the fact that they've gotten shitty service in a Cracker Barrel before. My family used to always go there on the drive home from our vacation. It was always much later than we were accustomed to eating dinner and it always seemed like we had to wait 45 minutes to get a table and sometimes another 15 minutes to get a waitress or a full hour to get the food after the order.
Then again, I'm basing this off of childhood memories, so odds are, what seemed like 45 minutes was really 15-20.

I hate Cracker Barrel and was unaware of their past with all of the racial and gay/lesbian discrimination issues. Its easier to believe (but still disturbing) that one store could be in a very white and bigoted town, and the entire wait staff could be racist and ignore a black customer...or even just the one server whose section they were in was racist and ignored them.
What a horrible fucking revelation, though, that a big chain restaurant has consistently been accused of racism spanning several locations in different states, and they basically mandated gay and lesbian discrimination as part of their company policy for 10 years.

"He never called over the waitresses and asked, 'Why did these people sit here for a half hour without service?' " she said. "The only thing he said was we could have a free meal and neither of us wanted to eat."
well, in CB'c defense, it sounds like the manager followed the book on this one. It would be highly unprofessional for the manager to have that discussion with the waitress in front of other employees, let alone in front of customers. Obviously Mrs. Rock doesnt know a whole lot about business if that was her expectation.


edited to add:
IT would have been HIGHLY unprofessional for the manager to dress the employee down in front of everybody like that.
I see Juliana beat me to this point

[the_birds]

And I'm a little suspicious of their estimate of the length of time.

I would generally agree. Most customers do exaggerate the length of time it takes for you to do anything. Still anything more than 10 minutes is suspect. If you walk into a dead restaurant at an off time, you practically have to go and grab someone to wait on you.

Don't want to wait to be waited on? ALWAYS go to the bar. I love to eat at the bar.

[fedsmack]

I'm white, and I just ate at the CB on Monday on my way home from the Blue Ridge mountains.... the food was good, but I waited for at least 30 minutes for my pancakes and eggs! Perhaps I was being disriminated against for being a hillbilly???

[Handy Smurf]

One other thing. When I used to work in the restaurant bidniss, I worked with several former CB employees and one other person who had a daughter who worked there. It was unanimous that CB treated their employees like absolute shit.
Not trying to make any excuses, but it wouldnt surprise me if that management/employee relationship helps to foster the poor service that seems to be pretty universal at CBs

[Duemellon]

Well, you were speaking about the "majority" using the third person, and then you completed that thought with a period, and issued a line break. Then you switched to the second person, wherein you addressed me, the reader, by using the word "you." That was a little bit of trickery to use on someone like me, who speaks English.

So, yes, I thought we were agreeing that you stumbled on some of the building blocks of effective communication, but I completely forgive you. I thought you were trying to take the high road by admitting your mistake, so we could get back to the topic, which is about C-word Barrel.It's odd. No one else really seemed to misread it that way. Only you.

Strange.

Even if there were a few others it would appear you are in the minority for having taken it to include yourself as being personally addressed. Oh well.

[Duemellon]

Who just sits and sits and sits for 30 minutes without saying something?I did, 3x at different IHOPs.

Yes, I timed it. Once for 30min, another 45, & another for over 30.

Twice there were only 3 and 7 other tables with customers pre-7:30am on a weekday. Once the place was packed, pre-10am on a weekend.

[the_birds]

Perhaps I was being disriminated against for being a hillbilly???

If you weren't, you certainly SHOULD BE! :p

[purple_octopus]

It's odd. No one else really seemed to misread it that way. Only you.

Strange.

Even if there were a few others it would appear you are in the minority for having taken it to include yourself as being personally addressed. Oh well.
No, lots of people are used to your poorly worded posts, are almost certain that you do it on purpose, and can't be bothered to go back and forth about it.

[Juliana]

I did, 3x at different IHOPs.

Yes, I timed it. Once for 30min, another 45, & another for over 30.

Twice there were only 3 and 7 other tables with customers pre-7:30am on a weekday. Once the place was packed, pre-10am on a weekend.

That happened once to us at the IHOP in MIlford. The place was slammed, and we even waited like 5 minutes to sit. After 20 minutes without even getting a glass of water, we finally got pissed and went to Waffle House. Mmmm, waffle house...

So, Due, did you ascribe the long wait to a racist server, or an incompetent server? Our wait was due to incompetence, unless she could tell I was hispanic (but she couldn't).

[Handy Smurf]

No, lots of people are used to your poorly worded posts, are almost certain that you do it on purpose, and can't be bothered to go back and forth about it.
yeah, I pretty much assumed Due was referring to the dozen or so people that had been posting in this thread ahead of him

[upwithpeople]

It's odd. No one else really seemed to misread it that way. Only you.

Strange.

Even if there were a few others it would appear you are in the minority for having taken it to include yourself as being personally addressed. Oh well.If the majority didn't recognize the flaw in that syntax, then most of the majority didn't read the post very carefully.

You are a moron.

[Handy Smurf]

Our wait was due to incompetence, unless she could tell I was hispanic (but she couldn't).
You're Hispanic? I couldnt tell either.




:p

[gwar469]

You're Hispanic? I couldnt tell either.




:p

who knew...i thought she was a break-dancing robot all this time! ain't that right, Lou Diamond Philips?

[Juliana]

You're Hispanic? I couldnt tell either.




:p

Yep, it's because I'm the whitest girl ever. Like Winona Rider white.

[classicgrrl]

If the majority didn't recognize the flaw in that syntax, then most of the majority didn't read the post very carefully.

You are a moron.
He's not a moron and that's not nice.

Due doesn't do this on purpose, his best communication is NOT language. Trust me, he does this verbally too although usually not as bad. If he could paint his meaning people would get it everytime.

True Story:
We were out at a restaurant having our usually mis-communicated friendship and we ordered the Bruschetta because we both like it. It came with shrimp on it. Due doesn't eat shellfish although he can't really explain his reasons other than I believe is a little allergic and he just really hates the taste. SO, we call the server over and, taking about 20 minutes, Roy has her nearly to tears and calling her manager.

I'm rolling my eyes at this time.

Manager comes over trying to ascertain what in hell is wrong and I finally tell Due to please hush it - and calmly tell the manager that the dish has shell fish, Roy's allergic, and it's our fault because we didn't read the menu correctly and could we please have the dish without shrimp. Manager happlily complies.

He felt bad because he made the server cry.

That's just Due. He doesn't do it on purpose. Words are not his forte. Paint is.

Another True Story:
Due painted me a painting and it hangs on my wall. Without me even telling anybody the name of the painting they get it.

Words are not his forte. Paint is.

[classicgrrl]

Yep, it's because I'm the whitest girl ever. Like Winona Rider white.

You're not 'white'.
You're porcelean.

I would kill for your skin tone.

[classicgrrl]

[QUOTE=the_birds]There really wasn't much the manager could do at that point.

For the life of me, I can't understand why someone didn't wait on them. 30 minutes without service? I don't think that's possible, without a conscious effort to ignore them.QUOTE]

Oh yes it is. Somebody went on break or had a shift change and didn't communicate. if they restaurant was busy believe it is altogether possible.

It's happened to Phreon and I in a restaurant that wasn't busy!
We waited 20 minutes.

[gwar469]

Oh yes it is. Somebody went on break or had a shift change and didn't communicate. if they restaurant was busy believe it is altogether possible.

It's happened to Phreon and I in a restaurant that wasn't busy!
We waited 20 minutes.

damn, you people are patient. if i haven't seen a waiter/waitress in 5 minutes, i'm asking the first waiter/waitress what's going on. not in a rude way, mind you, but i basically shyly mention that we haven't been waited on yet. 99% of the time, this gets us an apologetic waiter/waitress who uses a legit excuse for not coming to the table. it never hurts to politely speak up.

[classicgrrl]

damn, you people are patient. if i haven't seen a waiter/waitress in 5 minutes, i'm asking the first waiter/waitress what's going on. not in a rude way, mind you, but i basically shyly mention that we haven't been waited on yet. 99% of the time, this gets us an apologetic waiter/waitress who uses a legit excuse for not coming to the table. it never hurts to politely speak up.

oh, we left. Phreon went up to the front told them we hadn't been waited on in twenty minutes and we went elsewhere. I dont' think we've been back either.

This will give a little insight into my mind set: I wondered what we had done to piss off the wait staff. it was an indian restaurant. :p

[BigSugar]

Due doesn't do this on purpose, his best communication is NOT language.

Jules darling.......love of my life. puuuhhhmutherfuckingleeeeassse!! seriously. if "language" isn't his chosen medium, i have 13,100 posts he's made on just WOXY that argue differently.

And if language really is such a hardship for him, and it appears so based on the number of rather intelligent people he's pissed off over the years, then maybe it's time to stop.

i mean, an artist that draws only stick figures for decade after decade and has people tell him over and over that his "art" sucks ass, must at some point come to the conclusion that his art does indeed suck ass and quit.

i gave up arguing with Due years ago b/c i didn't want to have to start billing him for my time. and if he made a waitress cry over shrimp on his Bruschetta, it doesn't make him a "misuderstood artist", it makes him an asshole.

[classicgrrl]

it makes him an asshole.

he is not an asshole.
he's just misunderstood.

:D

sorry I couldn't resist. seriuosly, Due is a very nice sweet person. he really is. and a very, very true friend.

he truthfully does have problems getting his point across.

and the server didn't cry cry she just got scared. he didn't raise his voice or anything. he just didn't speak English. :p

seriously, I couldn't understand him.

[OldManIndieKid]

I wondered what we had done to piss off the wait staff. it was an indian restaurant. :pMaybe he slaughtered a cow?

[Homsar]

I wondered what we had done to piss off the wait staff. it was an indian restaurant. :p

Oh, well there's your problem!

It's Native American.

[gwar469]

and the server didn't cry cry she just got scared. he didn't raise his voice or anything. he just didn't speak English. :p


excuse me, waitress? i speak "due".

http://www.filmwise.com/visual/saywhat_01/image_03.jpg

:p

[the_birds]

damn, you people are patient. if i haven't seen a waiter/waitress in 5 minutes, i'm asking the first waiter/waitress what's going on. not in a rude way, mind you, but i basically shyly mention that we haven't been waited on yet. 99% of the time, this gets us an apologetic waiter/waitress who uses a legit excuse for not coming to the table. it never hurts to politely speak up.

Geees! Thank You gwar! My sentiments exactly, you people are waiting way too long! This is why 30 mins is just totally unconscionable to me.

I go one step beyond. If the parking lot is packed, I keep driving. I want a decent experience.

[Handy Smurf]

he is not an asshole.
he's just misunderstood.

:D

sorry I couldn't resist. seriuosly, Due is a very nice sweet person. he really is. and a very, very true friend.

he truthfully does have problems getting his point across.

and the server didn't cry cry she just got scared. he didn't raise his voice or anything. he just didn't speak English. :p

seriously, I couldn't understand him.

in person, Due is as good of a guy as you'll ever meet
online...eh, well, we've had our differences
I tend to be an ass on the internet...I've probably already done it 10 times today. Its usually not intentional and never personal. I'm just a stubborn motherfucker, and I think Due and many others on here are as well, so disagreements on the boards turn into heated debates pretty quickly

[gwar469]

in person, Due is as good of a guy as you'll ever meet
online...eh, well, we've had our differences
I tend to be an ass on the internet...I've probably already done it 10 times today. Its usually not intentional and never personal. I'm just a stubborn motherfucker, and I think Due and many others on here are as well, so disagreements on the boards turn into heated debates pretty quickly

shut the fuck up, you tool! nobody is listening or cares what you're saying.
:p

[purple_octopus]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm just an asshole. In real life and everything.

[Handy Smurf]

Geees! Thank You gwar! My sentiments exactly, you people are waiting way too long! This is why 30 mins is just totally unconscionable to me.

I go one step beyond. If the parking lot is packed, I keep driving. I want a decent experience.
I do this all the time. Sometimes its good to pull the "have a passenger run inside to check on seating availability while you sit in the car" trick.

And waiting more than 10 minutes without saying something is way too long. Agreed

[gwar469]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm just an asshole. In real life and everything.

funny...this doesn't look like the pictures i've seen of you...
http://www.toyzz.com/images/products/250/00/00/36/00003668-20031208105236-54084638.jpg

[purple_octopus]

I wear a lot of makeup.

[classicgrrl]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm just an asshole. In real life and everything.

oh you are not!

you just don't have the patience for stupid people!
:D

[ICONOCLAST420]

Years ago one of my friends told me that down south the cracker barrel was the hot "cruising" spot, which would explain their homophobic anti-gay stances.

I only went there once, because my father in law who loves NASCAR and FOX news channel "had" to go there, I thought the place was hokier than the flea market next to the 60 foot jesus.

I think the worst possible thing that could happen to a black person at the cracker barrel is for one of their friends to see them there. :p

[BigSugar]

I did, 3x at different IHOPs.

Yes, I timed it. Once for 30min, another 45, & another for over 30.

Twice there were only 3 and 7 other tables with customers pre-7:30am on a weekday. Once the place was packed, pre-10am on a weekend.

maybe they just knew you were gonna make them cry and were scared of you. i'd make your waitress hatin', Irish/Portugese/Scandanavian/Aryan ass wait too.

went to Denny's in Vegas. 3 a.m. Ate next to Sammy Sosa and his wife. They got served first. But i'm pretty sure it was because he was Sammy Sosa, nothing racial.

[the_birds]

maybe they just knew you were gonna make them cry and were scared of you. i'd make your waitress hatin', Irish/Portugese/Scandanavian/Aryan ass wait too.

went to Denny's in Vegas. 3 a.m. Ate next to Sammy Sosa and his wife. They got served first. But i'm pretty sure it was because he was Sammy Sosa, nothing racial.

The Denny's on the Strip or the one half way to Downtown? By the way, the breakfast at the Las Vegas Club hotel in downtown is great and reasonable. Also, try breakfast at the Palace Station.

[Shlep]

Years ago one of my friends told me that down south the cracker barrel was the hot "cruising" spot, which would explain their homophobic anti-gay stances.

Are you serious? I can't imagine any self-respecting gay man wanting to so much as be caught dead in a Cracker Barrel. Unless maybe they thought it kitschy in a delightfully tacky/campy sort of way. ;)

[Shlep]

went to Denny's in Vegas. 3 a.m. Ate next to Sammy Sosa and his wife. They got served first. But i'm pretty sure it was because he was Sammy Sosa, nothing racial.

I thinks it's because they caught that you're a lawyer...it's common knowledge that nobody likes you bastards. The Grand Wizard could've been slinging hash that morning and decided to serve Sammy before you. :D

[weeone]

I did, 3x at different IHOPs.

Yes, I timed it. Once for 30min, another 45, & another for over 30.

Twice there were only 3 and 7 other tables with customers pre-7:30am on a weekday. Once the place was packed, pre-10am on a weekend.
You have to have a hobby, I suppose. Waiting around in horrid chain restaurants in the wee hours for racism to strike is not the most popular sport, but that's not to say it isn't fun !

[Duemellon]

No, lots of people are used to your poorly worded posts, are almost certain that you do it on purpose, and can't be bothered to go back and forth about it.So why mention it? I guess you're just trying to retain your "asshole" status. You made a comment about the orignal statement. In fact, your only reason for coming in here is to make some snide remark. I like how you assume that because you don't understand it, it must be specially designed to confuse you or be contrary.

You earned that title.yeah, I pretty much assumed Due was referring to the dozen or so people that had been posting in this thread ahead of himIt only referred to them if they felt it did. :þIf the majority didn't recognize the flaw in that syntax, then most of the majority didn't read the post very carefully.

You are a moron.It's great that if they didn't agree with your assessment of the situation they're wrong/incompetent. Sounds to me like you're definitely upset.

The 1st part that offended me most in your post & started off this bit o' flame was when you paraphrased what I said into a racial slur. Then, the 2nd thing was you went on assuming I was saying "white people" when clearly I didn't say "white" & was talking about the majority. Majority in this context means: The one with power/influence. Whether you're black in a black owned-business or mexican in Chihuahua, it's a statement about how stuff works.

However, even though you'd say in one post about how you find me easy to talk to, and my ideas are a breath of fresh air, but I'm a moron. Either your opinion changed after being pounced on for your callous slur, or you're doing some smokescreening.

If you didn't use a racial slur this whole flare of flames would'nt've happened. Yes, I have no sense of humor about racial slurs.

[Duemellon]

You have to have a hobby, I suppose. Waiting around in horrid chain restaurants in the wee hours for racism to strike is not the most popular sport, but that's not to say it isn't fun !idiot.
Sometimes people just go to restaurants because they're hungry, not because it's a sociopolitical statement. For some people every moment of life isn't a critical statement about humanity.So, Due, did you ascribe the long wait to a racist server, or an incompetent server? Our wait was due to incompetence, unless she could tell I was hispanic (but she couldn't).When it came to those situations, 2 of them I feel confident they were just incompetent. The 3rd I felt some bias. Whether it was an assumption of financial means, race, appearance, or whatever, I don't know & didn't care.

But could it have been racism? Absolutely. Do I really care about it? No. I'm more upset I wasted my time.

[upwithpeople]

It's great that if they didn't agree with your assessment of the situation they're wrong/incompetent. Sounds to me like you're definitely upset.

The 1st part that offended me most in your post & started off this bit o' flame was when you paraphrased what I said into a racial slur. Then, the 2nd thing was you went on assuming I was saying "white people" when clearly I didn't say "white" & was talking about the majority. Majority in this context means: The one with power/influence. Whether you're black in a black owned-business or mexican in Chihuahua, it's a statement about how stuff works.

However, even though you'd say in one post about how you find me easy to talk to, and my ideas are a breath of fresh air, but I'm a moron.

If you didn't use a racial slur this whole flare of flames would'nt've happened. Yes, I have no sense of humor about racial slurs.So what you're saying -- and let me parse this slowly -- is that you thought I was calling you a moron? Let's look at my post:

If the majority didn't recognize the flaw in that syntax, then most of the majority didn't read the post very carefully.

You are a moron.Let's assume the reason you thought I called you a moron was because I said "You are a moron." However, in reality, I was referring to most of the majority that didn't recognize the flaw in your original syntax. I just didn't bother to requalify that pronoun. I thought you would appreciate me playing it all loosey-goosey with coherence.

So now, finally, 24 hours later, we are in indisputable agreement that your original post was poorly worded. It's evident you have difficulty with apologies, so let's just say that I was right and call it a day.

[ORFFYREUS]

Oh, well there's your problem!

It's Native American.
<overlooking real issues at hand in this thread>

Are you really that fucking ignorant?

[weeone]

idiot.
Sometimes people just go to restaurants because they're hungry, not because it's a sociopolitical statement. For some people every moment of life isn't a critical statement about humanity.When it came to those situations, 2 of them I feel confident they were just incompetent. The 3rd I felt some bias. Whether it was an assumption of financial means, race, appearance, or whatever, I don't know & didn't care.

But could it have been racism? Absolutely. Do I really care about it? No. I'm more upset I wasted my time.
Ah, ok. It seemed like it was an actual project of observation. I was just kidding.

[weeone]

<overlooking real issues at hand in this thread>

Are you really that fucking ignorant?
Don't make me make you wish you'd never been born.

[miami2112]

Don't make me make you wish you'd never been born.

sometimes i wish i'd never been in porn.

[Duemellon]

It's evident you have difficulty with apologies, so let's just say that I was right and call it a day.It's obvious you have difficulties with apologies & letting some stuff go. What a strange thing to have a crusade about.

there's a topic to be discussed & to spend pages trying to wring an apology about a syntax-conflict which was already cleared up is just a big waste of time. Beyond trying to hold my feet to the fire to apologize for something which was cleared up a long time ago you haven't apologized for your racial slur.

But, no big deal. If you want to ignore the topic & focus on how you misinterpreted what I said due to poor sentence/paragraph structure instead of recognizing the reason I flamed you back was more about your ignorant term than anything else, then you can do so.

[upwithpeople]

If you want to ignore the topic & focus on how you misinterpreted what I said due to poor sentence/paragraph structure instead of recognizing the reason I flamed you back was more about your ignorant term than anything else, then you can do so.Theoretically, we could shift the focus to how you've been cowering behind your awkward semantics this whole time to cover the fact that you did actually call out the people on this message board as uniformly white, but I've made my point and you've admitted you were wrong, so I'm going to bury the hatchet. Apology accepted. Again. It was music to this cracker-ass cracker's ears.

[Duemellon]

...you did actually call out the people on this message board as uniformly white, ...Again, there you go. No longer on topic & still saying I called everyone on here "white", which in fact, I know different because I've met them.

As in: In person. Have I met you?

But really, here's the way it works when communicating:Person A says "something"
Person B says "I didn't understand, did you mean this?"
Person A says "No, I meant that."
Person B says "Oh, ok."When the conversation goes:Person A says "something"
Person B says "You mean to tell me you believe this <insert inflammatory word>?!?!?"
Person A says "No, it said/meant that"
Person B says "You suck"That's not a conversation. Nor is it helpful. If you really wanted to understand the statement was clarified for you. Communication was served. Now you want to still harp on it as if that's the whole purpose of the thread or that post.

What do you have to gain by it? Is this helpful to the conversation? Was your question/concern about the topic not addressed? You said that "I find you easy to talk to you, and your ideas are a breath of fresh air. " (I find you easy to talk to you, and your ideas are a breath of fresh air. ) but considering how you are no longer trying to discuss the topic & more interested in making me lose face, it makes you appear nitpicky, flaming, &/r vindictive.

Which is it? Are you here for the conversation or persecution? Because you appear to be stuck on demonstrating my incompetence instead of getting back the conversations which are a "breath of fresh air".

[Juliana]

I'm more upset I wasted my time.

Let's just agree to go to Waffle House next time. We can all meet up and play some tunes on the jukebox.

Seriously, WH has one damn fine waffle.

Crap. Now I really do want a waffle...

[uselesstomato]

Let's just agree to go to Waffle House next time. We can all meet up and play some tunes on the jukebox.

Seriously, WH has one damn fine waffle.

Crap. Now I really do want a waffle...

dammit juliana...

im fasting today, and your talk of wafflehouse is making me reeeaaal hungry!

:p

[purple_octopus]

dammit juliana...

im fasting today, and your talk of wafflehouse is making me reeeaaal hungry!

:p
Waffle House is open 24/7, UT. You can go after sunset, can't you?

[uselesstomato]

Waffle House is open 24/7, UT. You can go after sunset, can't you?

well ya... but its the fact that i crave it now thats the problem :p

[classicgrrl]

Let's just agree to go to Waffle House next time. We can all meet up and play some tunes on the jukebox.

Seriously, WH has one damn fine waffle.

Crap. Now I really do want a waffle...

I effin' LOVE the WH. Waffle, bacon, and grits.

dammit, I want a waffle!

[classicgrrl]

<overlooking real issues at hand in this thread>

Are you really that fucking ignorant?

he's being sarcastic.

[Duemellon]

So...
If we can continue on to the topic that was there awhile back. What are the mechanisms you think are there for someone who is in the majority to be dismissive about racism being a possibility while a minority has to maintain it. Do you think it's a "reality" issue or just a POV issue?

[Shlep]

So...
If we can continue on to the topic that was there awhile back. What are the mechanisms you think are there for someone who is in the majority to be dismissive about racism being a possibility while a minority has to maintain it. Do you think it's a "reality" issue or just a POV issue?

Could it not be both?

I've noticed, Due, that you seem to think folks are being "dismissive" of racism or denying that it even exists (the latter you've done to me ad nauseum to the point where I added that line to my sig) when they are simply just not pouncing on it as some sort of clear, "if-then" state of affairs.

Example: a black person goes to some local chew-and-choke for lunch. They wait an inordinantly long time for service. Maybe white person or two being waited on by a different server gets their meal even though they arrived after the black person. Now there's all sorts of ways you could explain this:

1) The black person is seated in a zone being covered by a server who is indifferent, incompetant, or who ducked out the back with one of the short-order cooks and the guy who buses tables and got stoned behind the dumpster, started talking, and didn't notice 25 minutes just went by.

2) The white guy is sitting in the zone covered by the Employee Of the Month.

3) The white guy ordered something that was easier to prepare.

4) The cook who was preparing both entrees burned the ass off the one ordered by the black person and had to start over.

5) The place is staffed by bigots.

Now, as I've said before, likely more than once: nobody here is so naive or stupid to claim that racism doesn't exist and that nobody ever is on the giving or receiving end of it. However, most of us here (if not all of us) who are white have at one time or another dealt with lousy service, rude clerks, obnoxious police officers, and indifferent managers and hence are not apt to automatically see someone who is not white encounter one of these folks and say "A-HA!! RACISM!!!"

Those of us who've been wrongfully and unjustly accused of being unrepentant racists are even less likely. When I worked at a gas station in undergrad school, I ran into this constantly. The station had a mini-mart in it, and at the back was the restroom. I was required by my supervisor and her supervisor and his supervisor to keep the doors to the mini-mart closed between about midnight and whatever time in the morning that either the sun came up of there was a sufficient number of people moving through the place so as to make trying to rob it impractical. I had no problem abiding by this regulation since the Shell and Exxon stations which were a stones' throw from me got knocked over every couple of months (one summer it was every couple of weeks) since their proximity to the interstate made robbing them and dashing away easier.

Locking up, of course, meant that the bathroom was unavailable and/or a customer wanting to purchase something would need to tell me what they wanted so I could retrieve it for them and pass it to them via the sliding drawer mounted in the wall. There was not a single weekend in 4.5 years of pulling graveyards where I did not get some sarcastic, knowing bullshit comment from some black dude when I told him I was not permitted to open the doors (i.e. "Uh huh, sure...you mean you're not allowed to let *SOME* people in!" or "Oh, you think I'm gonna rob you?!" and so on). Some guys dispensed with the roundabout criticism and just called me a "racist motherfucker" sometimes announcing they were reporting me to the corporate office and going to sue before storming off in a pious fit of anger.

Thus, I can conservatively estimate that there are about 200-300 black guys somewhere on the East Coast who, if asked, could tell you about how they suffered the humiliating sting of racism from me with the sort of certainty most folks have regarding death and taxes when no such thing happened. That's not counting guys who thought I was spying on them closely when pumping gas at certain pumps which (due to the relative position in my field of view) were the ones preferred by people who pumped gas and then bolted without paying because I thought they were going to steal because they were black (ironic, considering that every drive-off I can recall was committed by white guys).

Shortly after the Denny's mess, I had a black person stroll in and inform me that he was travelling with "a busload" of people and needed to use our restroom facilities. Since we had but a single unisex bathroom, I'm thinking that a busload of people having to pee would be hating life queueing up to use one bathroom, so I decided to be helpful and informed him that there was a rest stop 10 or 15 minutes away down the interstate in the direction in which he was heading that he'd probably be better off using since they had generous restroom facilties. Turns out this "bus" was little more than an extended van with about 8 people in it, and suddenly I'm being accused of trying to shoo away black people because I'm a racist who doesn't one black people peeing in the stations' toilet or some such nonsense (which I seem to recall paralleled the Dennys' fiasco, though I'm not sure why).

Point being: if you get shitty service, it might be because you're black or brown or otherwise foreign-looking or it might be because the service is generally shitty. Some of us are not as quick to assume the former if for no other reason than we're not mind readers.

[Duemellon]

Could it not be both?

I've noticed, Due, that you seem to think folks are being "dismissive" of racism or denying that it even exists (the latter you've done to me ad nauseum to the point where I added that line to my sig) when they are simply just not pouncing on it as some sort of clear, "if-then" state of affairs.
I'll have to get back to finishing your Reader's Digest submission later, but this part is a bit off.

You're confusing me & Frost on that one. You two had that longass discussion, not me. I just noted you had the odd distinction of saying that racism existed but excusing the mechanics resulting in racism as non-racist.Pretty much saying that the end-result, although quantifiably disproportionate, is "no one's fault" because all the reasons were explainable in non-racist terms.If there's any racism involved at all then that means it affects the outcome. If everything else was equal & someone whipped out a Bit O' Racism it makes it worse. It's by the nature of the terms of adding it.

[Shlep]

I'll have to get back to finishing your Reader's Digest submission later, but this part is a bit off.

You're confusing me & Frost on that one. You two had that longass discussion, not me. I just noted you had the odd distinction of saying that racism existed but excusing the mechanics resulting in racism as non-racist.

I see.

Well, my bad for attributing Frosts' quirks to you. Though as for my "excusing" racism as making it out to be non-racist, I'm not sure where you got that from.

[Duemellon]

Though as for my "excusing" racism as making it out to be non-racist, I'm not sure where you got that from.going back through that would be an exercise in fieldwork archeology, so we'll skip that. However, as is mentioned in your post (now that I went back & read it) you have given more reasons why they would've gotten bad service.

Now, I submit to you, what if it was statistically shown to you that more of the gas stations in predominently black neighborhoods did the graveyard shift-lockdown than those in business or white neighborhoods?

The staff who work there aren't being racist individually, but the pattern suggests a disproportion of saftey procedures. What is a good explanation for that?

[purple_octopus]

Now, I submit to you, what if it was statistically shown to you that more of the gas stations in predominently black neighborhoods did the graveyard shift-lockdown than those in business or white neighborhoods?

The staff who work there aren't being racist individually, but the pattern suggests a disproportion of saftey procedures. What is a good explanation for that?
Crime tends to be higher in poorer areas, and black people tend to be disproportionately poor. Duh.

But seriously, Due, it just makes good business sense to lock up at night. When I was working at the hotel in the whitest of white neighborhoods, we locked up at night. And yeah, I had a lot of people claim racism too. Like I locked the doors just for them. :rolleyes: Give me a fucking break. And for the record, the only person who tried to rob me was white.

[DaHood]

Like I locked the doors just for them. :rolleyes:
If I saw you coming, pissed off, I'd probably pull down the bulletproof shield. :p

[GISRICK]

We registered at Crate and Barrel...FYI so you can buy us stuff...OK

[purple_octopus]

We registered at Crate and Barrel...FYI so you can buy us stuff...OK
You should register at Cracker Barrel instead.

[DaHood]

We registered at Crate and Barrel...FYI so you can buy us stuff...OK
PM the name and you might get a gift. :D

[DaHood]

You should register at Cracker Barrel instead.
..cracker ass cracker...

[Shlep]

Now, I submit to you, what if it was statistically shown to you that more of the gas stations in predominently black neighborhoods did the graveyard shift-lockdown than those in business or white neighborhoods?

That depends. Are we talking about predominantly black neighborhoods like those in Howard County, Maryland where the cheap houses start at $500,000 and often run over a cool million? Or predominantly black neighborhoods a short jaunt away in Anacostia where the attendants kept the doors locked and stayed behind an inch of bulletproof glass, even for Whitey McWhiteboy-looking guys like me? Or maybe white neighborhoods in and around where I currently live where people often get edgy and ill-mannered because they've been tweaking on meth for three or four days straight and who are the reason why buying a goddam box of nasal decongestant involves going through a process which feels like visiting a brother-in-law in prison?

The staff who work there aren't being racist individually, but the pattern suggests a disproportion of saftey procedures. What is a good explanation for that?

Common sense, usually. If you are a business owner and decide to take a risk expanding your franchise to a neighborhood that has a problem with violent crimes such as armed robbery, are you going to bother taking the time to determine the overall ethnic demographics of the criminals involved? Or are you just going to lock the flippin' doors at night?

[classicgrrl]

Due dear,

do you leave your apartment unlocked at night?

and if so, do you have any unnecessary valuables you would like to dispose of? :p

[Duemellon]

Crime tends to be higher in poorer areas, and black people tend to be disproportionately poor. Duh.

But seriously, Due, it just makes good business sense to lock up at night.Common sense, usually. If you are a business owner and decide to take a risk expanding your franchise to a neighborhood that has a problem with violent crimes such as armed robbery, are you going to bother taking the time to determine the overall ethnic demographics of the criminals involved? Or are you just going to lock the flippin' doors at night?See, I laid out a question & even though the scenerio was given with no other variables.

If I said that everything else in the scenerio was equal, what do you think then? The scenerio was that one neighborhood gets locked up & the others don't. That's the measureable result. It just so happens that ones that don't get locked up are demographically distinct.

As for the "good business sense" part, no, it doesn't make good sense. In one neighborhood here UDF stays unlocked all the time. Other stations get locked down. Yet UDF stays in business. So it's not "good sense".

And CGrrl, if you ever really wanted to know that answer I could tell you, but broadcasting it on the 'net isn't a wise idea.

[purple_octopus]

See, I laid out a question & even though the scenerio was given with no other variables.

If I said that everything else in the scenerio was equal, what do you think then?
All other factors ARE NOT EQUAL. That's just the way it fucking is. Your hypothetical makes no sense, because you're living outside of reality.

[Shlep]

See, I laid out a question & even though the scenerio was given with no other variables.

If I said that everything else in the scenerio was equal, what do you think then? The scenerio was that one neighborhood gets locked up & the others don't. That's the measureable result. It just so happens that ones that don't get locked up are demographically distinct.

I see. And do these stats take into consideration things such as the frequency/regularity with which surrounding businesses or similar businesses get robbed? Does it take into account whether they are privately-owned and run by family members and friends the way many convenience store/gas-stations are or franchise businesses? After all, the former is more likely to be owned by people willing to keep a scattergun under the counter and use it, the latter wishing to avoid incurring liability by not allowing the clerks to arm themselves and instead keep the doors closed, like the place I worked in.

Or are we simply looking at the demographics of the area the business is in and saying "These people are black, therefore..." or "These people are white, therefore..."? Because even that doesn't hold up. The gas station I pulled graveyards at, and the hotel purple_octopus staffed all night, weren't even in "neighborhoods" per se, yet were potential robbery targets. In my case, as I pointed out, proximity to escape routes for the getaway driver made my station an attractive target; the racial compostion of the surrounding area had fuck-all to do with anything. Once or twice, the scandalous bastards hit the Exxon, fled in a car, waited for the county PD to show up and head off in their last known direction, whereupon they came back and robbed the friggin' KFC 100 yards away.

I'm sorry that real life doesn't compartmentalize itself as neatly as you'd like it Due, but there you have it. People run into bad people who do bad things all the times for all sorts of reasons, just like people wind up feeling bad inadevertantly over little or nothing. And peoples' motivations for doing things are not always easily divined as you may wish them to be.

As for the "good business sense" part, no, it doesn't make good sense. In one neighborhood here UDF stays unlocked all the time. Other stations get locked down. Yet UDF stays in business. So it's not "good sense".

No, what's not good sense is your pat, ipso-facto argument, for reasons which I think I've explained halfway decently.

[DaHood]

And CGrrl, if you ever really wanted to know that answer I could tell you, but broadcasting it on the 'net isn't a wise idea.
That's okay CG. I googled "Is Due's apartment left unlocked" and I have the answer. Want to meet me at Due's place while he's gone? :p

[Duemellon]

As is being demonstrated by your responses (POct & Shlep) you delve into the details of the mechanisms & the outcome of "racist" disappears.

This is exactly the action I was talking about & you are illustrating.

Not only that, you are both becoming rather sarcastically condescending & as far as I'm concerned, you aren't interested in investigating what I'm saying at this point. Basically, you've demonstrated mine.

So, is there anyone out there other than the 2 people who have taken offense at my suggestion got something to interject about what just happened?

[noonan]

I'd pay $20 for a good waffle if it could be delivered hot within the next 10 minutes.

[purple_octopus]

Fine, Due. If you don't believe that blacks are disproportionately poor, and that crime is disproportionately high in poor neighborhoods, that's your fucking problem.

[weeone]

I, personally and disproportionately, believe that Duemellon should be the next US President. Or the Eradicator.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~jnp129/League%20Play.jpg

The picture does not go.

ERADICATOR !!

[noonan]

Seriously, somebody bring me a waffle right now and I'll be your friend. I'll vote for Due too if you want.

[purple_octopus]

Can't you call Take-Out Taxi or something?

[noonan]

They don't have that in Kentucky, do they?

Edit:It'd be cold by the time it got here from L'ville. (http://www.takeout-taxi.com/States/KY.html)

[purple_octopus]

I don't know. They have it in Tennessee.

[DaHood]

Lord I've really been real stressed
Down and out, losin ground
Although I am black and proud
Problems got me pessimistic
Brothers and sisters keep messin up
Why does it have to be so damn tuff?
I don't know where I can go
To let these ghosts out of my skull
My grandmas past, my brothers gone
I never at once felt so alone
I know you're supposed to be my steering wheel
Not just my spare tire (home)
But lord I ask you (home)
To be my guiding force and truth
For some strange reason it had to be
He guided me to Tennessee

[Duemellon]

Fine, Due. If you don't believe that blacks are disproportionately poor, and that crime is disproportionately high in poor neighborhoods, that's your fucking problem.that's not my point. My point is if the results are racist, there's racism in there. This was a discussion long long ago. It would seem that you & Shlep, although you beleive racism exists, is powerful, & has measurable effects, when the process that got the result is analyzed the amount of variables, expectations, & reasonable choices inside give racism plenty of room to play in. Enough so that the resulting racist outcome is therefore questioned.

You were starting to do it again & that, right there, was what I was originally asking about the "quirk". How those who are in the majority tend to find a way to dismiss discriminatory results against the minority as not being unfounded bias.

It's not about having different approaches, it's about an expectation of results stemming from the investigation.

Like one of us approaches racism as if it's gravity & the other approaches it like it's a crime scene.Gravity
How gravity works is still unknown. How it looks is just being figured out. We all know it exists because we can see the results of stuff attracting each other based on mass, but when you try to investigate it more questions come up than answers. Gravity is a natural phenomenon that will happen whether or not we figure it out. What is happening is still not understood.

Crime Scene
The results are clearly a crime. We know that something illegal had to have happened for the crime to have been done. We know, whether deleberate or happenstance, when it's said and done some human made a wrong choice or mistake. When you investigate it things make sense. Details begin to form. Out of all the possibilities some individual(s) will be found at fault (or at least suspect) for the result. Someone is guilty, it is clearly a crime, we just have to keep digging.What does someone (anyone) else think about this? Is it really a difference between knowing there's a crime & investigating gravity? Why would one groups' POV be so different they're willing to either ignore or minimize the end results & the other expects to find someone culpable?

[purple_octopus]

Due, I think you'll find that most people are dismissing you, not racism per se.

[ZLoveSarah]

I, personally and disproportionately, believe that Duemellon should be the next US President. Or the Eradicator.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~jnp129/League%20Play.jpg

The picture does not go.

ERADICATOR !!

yaaaaaaaay weeone!

(I looked and I couldn't find the right picture either.)

[Shlep]

As is being demonstrated by your responses (POct & Shlep) you delve into the details of the mechanisms & the outcome of "racist" disappears.

This is exactly the action I was talking about & you are illustrating.

No, Due. For someone who readily calls into question the critical thinking skills of others, you seem to be doing a fine job of missing the point, that being the one which has all but painted itself day-glo orange, donned the funny nose/glasses ensemble, and is jumping up and down in front of you discharging an airhorn and screaming "DUEMELLON!!! LOOK AT MEEEEE!!! HERE'S THE POINT!!!"

Racism doesn't "disappear" when one takes your monstrously over-simplified examples you supply and the equally one-dimensional logic they're based on and add a modicum of plausible cicrumstances to them. Rather, what happens is that the a distinct possibility which was apparently not hitherto considered becomes apparent. That possibility being that racism is but one possible phenomenon among many which would explain, for example, why someone would opt to take common-sense safety precautions when engaging in commerce at a time when day when it's dark and there's scarcely anyone around or why a black person might find themselves forced to wait an unsually long time for a plate of flapjacks at a franchise restaurant.

Unless of course the person following this chain of logic is you, in which case you get huffy and indignant and wonder why it is some folks simply cannot accept the obvious fact that black people + locked door = racism, full stop.

Not only that, you are both becoming rather sarcastically condescending & as far as I'm concerned, you aren't interested in investigating what I'm saying at this point.

Translation: as usual, I gamely refuse to accept your irrefutable logic and vastly superior knowledge of things racial.

[Shlep]

that's not my point. My point is if the results are racist, there's racism in there.

MY POINT, if you could be bothered to entertain it rather than trying to analyze my motives for making it, is that absent the certainty that the results are racist, there likewise exists the absence of certainty that there's racism in there.

Again, regarding the item that started this entire thread: Chris Rocks' mom waited a long time for food at Cracker Barrel. The only things we can logically claim to know as fact are this:

1) Chris Rocks' mom waited a long time for food at Cracker Barrel.
2) Chris Rocks' mom is black.

That's it. Even if we were to consider a third element:

3) Cracker Barrel restaurants have been the target of allegations of racism in the past.

...this still "proves" squat since I doubt there is a single business in operation anywhere near the size and scope of one such as Cracker Barrel in this country that does not ever find itself obliged to respond to allegations of racism and a plethora of other alleged indiginaties and slights suffered by customers at the hands of its employees. As I mentioned before, I myself have been accused of being racist or acting in a racist manner more times than I care to even think about by people why were as sure as people can be that I was a racist when racism had nothing to do with anything.

[Duemellon]

When you & POct are the only ones talking in here nothing gets done. No conversations progress. No matter how interesting the point, different the topic, or open-ended the question is. When you, Shelp, & POct decide you're going to grind a thread to a halt, you do so.

You are doing such again.

Could you please let other people talk?

[purple_octopus]

Could you please let other people talk?
I'm not keeping anyone from posting. You just don't want to admit that everyone is sick of dealing with you.

[Duemellon]

I'm not keeping anyone from posting. You just don't want to admit that everyone is sick of dealing with you.It's hateful flaming declarations like that which pretty much steer people away. Very few people will enter a heated discussion when such barbs & emotion are involved even in CE/P.

What you don't understand is your own personal crusade to demean & marginalize me is actually hurting other people who wish to discuss things. If you could just leave people alone to talk about stuff you'd see there's a conversation going on. If you continue to interject your own brand of vendetta you'll always hinder it.

You are doing everyone a disservice by injecting your bitterness into every thread.

[Shlep]

When you & POct are the only ones talking in here nothing gets done. No conversations progress. No matter how interesting the point, different the topic, or open-ended the question is. When you, Shelp, & POct decide you're going to grind a thread to a halt, you do so.

You are doing such again.

A rather strange indictment, Due, considering that this thread has only continued because p_o and I have been posting in it.

Could you please let other people talk?

I do apologize, Due...how rude of me to post so damned loudly that I am effectively shouting everyone else down and precluding others from taking part. It's not as though there might be another reason. That is, such as a general sense of futility in attempting to engage you in a discussion involving race and/or racism.

I'll just be quiet and allow the massive stampede of people who have been rudely denied their say to begin posting.

[indigobunting]

It's not as though there might be another reason. That is, such as a general sense of futility in attempting to engage you in a discussion involving race and/or racism.
Quite funny, yes.

:D

[Shlep]

Quite funny, yes.

:D

Hey! Did I say you could post in this thread? DID I?!?! SHADDAP!!! :D :D

[Duemellon]

A rather strange indictment, Due, considering that this thread has only continued because p_o and I have been posting in it.
...
I'll just be quiet and allow the massive stampede of people who have been rudely denied their say to begin posting.Yet, you even missed the point of what was said. It has not been the quantity of what you & POct have posted, it is the viotrol & condescention to which you have posted.

If you could notice there have been plenty of threads I have started or participated in which have come & gone where a discussion took place without you or her coming into it & making it "personal" or being condescending & inciting tension.

Between you making wonderfully ridiculing statements & POct not even participating on subject, just sniping, it doesn't create an atmosphere where people want to talk. They just want to watch the Jerry Springer Show come up in a forum. As you can see I have remained civil with you & POct for this thread attempting to reconcile your statements & dissmissals with the subject at hand. Still you toss out bitterness & she makes slanderous declarations attempting to steer others'. It's a shame that's how you two chose to operate & that a place where people could have great theoretical discussions must be brought to personal attacks & interpersonal discussions that are off topic.

[purple_octopus]

Due, you're the condescending shit in this conversation. The last I checked, this was gwar469's thread, not yours. If he wants to tell me to shut the fuck up, I'll consider it. Until then, you can kiss my ass, or go start your own cracker ass cracker barrel thread. And for the record, I did contribute. I even kinda agreed with you at first, but you were too busy being a dick about everything to notice.

[Shlep]

Yet, you even missed the point of what was said. It has not been the quantity of what you & POct have posted, it is the viotrol & condescention to which you have posted.

If you could notice there have been plenty of threads I have started or participated in which have come & gone where a discussion took place without you or her coming into it & making it "personal" or being condescending & inciting tension.

Listen, you dumbsunovabich. I didn't call anyone a fucking "cracker". Furthermore I didn't even say "everyone". Goddamnit, you're a prick. Go fuck yourself with a rusted muffler.

People like you are small minded closet racists waiting to defend your pea-sized myopic view vehemently without considering the possibiliy you're fucking wrong.

Stupid cromag nosepicking imbicile. Rot in Hell or wherever you & your Klan-type people spawn.

If this thread gets locked it simpleton muthafuckers like you who think racial slurks are cool & witty.

You are dumb. What you say is more dumb. Not smart is you. Fuck off and die.

So why mention it? I guess you're just trying to retain your "asshole" status.

idiot.

Yes, damn that vitriol and condescension.

Between you making wonderfully ridiculing statements & POct not even participating on subject, just sniping, it doesn't create an atmosphere where people want to talk. They just want to watch the Jerry Springer Show come up in a forum. As you can see I have remained civil with you & POct for this thread attempting to reconcile your statements & dissmissals with the subject at hand. Still you toss out bitterness & she makes slanderous declarations attempting to steer others'. It's a shame that's how you two chose to operate & that a place where people could have great theoretical discussions must be brought to personal attacks & interpersonal discussions that are off topic.

http://www.borbafett.net/uploaded_images/baby_crying_closeup-780736.jpg

Due, please. Suddenly adopting this fallback position where you are the put-upon, wearied locus of mean-spirited attacks and scurrilous sniping is lame. And for you to start lecturing others about condescension, including any displayed in this thread, makes me wonder how you manage to overcome the daunting task of stuffing your enormous and shiny brass balls into your pants whilst dressing in the morning.

You have, as is your habit in these sorts of discussions, blown off differing viewpoints as being pointless, irrelevant, or perhaps worse still an annoyance or an attempt to distract the discussion away from its true purpose (read: engaging in a wild group fit of agreeing with Duemellon and his unimpeachable wisdom on the subject of racism). And then to top all off you break out buffing cloth, give the ol' cajones a once-over to restore their luster, and have the unmitigated gall to suggest taht I am somehow hogging the thread and preventing others from tossing in their buck-fifty.

Have I, in the past page or two, become increasingly sarcastic? Yes, to that I will readily admit. It's my standard reaction to being confronted with someone acting in a jaw-droppingly pompous manner. Having said that: I ought to be vigorously paddled, even smacked about the face and head, for even thinking I could have entered into this sort of discussion with you and had something remotely worthwhile come of it as I bloody well ought to know better by now.

[Duemellon]

Due, you're the condescending shit in this conversation.Please point out where I've been condescending to Shlep in a way that was rhetorical?

I like how you "kind've" agreed but now don't. For what reason? Personal vendetta or philosophical differences?

I was simply pointing out how conversations can happen in threads without you or Shelp's participation. For some reason they seem extra unproductive with your interjections.Have I, in the past page or two, become increasingly sarcastic? Yes, to that I will readily admit.& to that, you don't care. I find it tragic you would chose such an action to have a thread end up turning into a soapbox for you to restart a personal problem you have rather than continue a discussion.

I guess everyone has to have their hobbies. You can own this thread if you like. Hopefully someone will come out the woodwork & give you a different view than you have & prompting a discussion with you. That'd be nice.

[purple_octopus]

I like how you "kind've" agreed but now don't. For what reason? Personal vendetta or philosophical differences?
I only "kinda" agreed because it was only on one point -- that it probably was racism for no other reason than it was a Cracker Barrel. I also pointed out that I could see both sides because making that connection was completely illogical, as none of us here know the details of the situation. It was just a gut feeling.

However, you've said all sorts of other things that I haven't agreed with. Mainly I disagree when you can't see that more gas stations lock their doors in the black parts of town than white because a) crime is high in poor areas, and b) blacks are disproportionately poor. These are just real-world facts that you apparently can't admit or don't want to face or for some reason won't take the conversation in the direction in which you want it to go. Well too bad, it's the truth.

I was simply pointing out how conversations can happen in threads without you or Shelp's participation.
They still can happen. I'm not keeping anyone else from posting, I promise. If people are "intimidated" because I speak my mind, then they need to grow a pair.

[noonan]

FYI all, I finally made myself some waffles this morning. Scrumptious.

[weeone]

Could you please let other people talk?
Thank you. I'm fucking stifled here.

[Homsar]

They're chicken and dumplings are GOOD.

[weeone]

They're chicken and dumplings are GOOD.
don't make me ftfy.

[gwar469]

The last I checked, this was gwar469's thread, not yours. If he wants to tell me to shut the fuck up, I'll consider it.

i like how you'll just "consider it" if i tell you to shut up. :p

hey, i'm entertained...proceed, all of you! :cool:

[Duemellon]

hey, i'm entertained...proceed, all of you! :cool:Nothing's being said. Everything's getting locked into the same old thing of one person just sniping & another getting sarcastic & derisive. No one else is talking.

If that's what you call entertainment then, Mr. Barry Williams, I will not be on your show.

[Juliana]

I think we should all meet at a Waffle House and discuss this in person.

I'm getting a waffle, double hash browns (that I always only eat half of--go figure), and a water. No syrup please.

Seriously, we never have luck discussing this on a board. It just doesn't work.

[noonan]

I think we should all meet at a Waffle House...

I'm so down with that it's not even funny.

[gwar469]

Nothing's being said. Everything's getting locked into the same old thing of one person just sniping & another getting sarcastic & derisive. No one else is talking.

If that's what you call entertainment then, Mr. Barry Williams, I will not be on your show.

exactly. i'm entertained at you guys going back and forth like a broken record. you three are never going to change each other's opinions, yet to keep attacking each other with the same arguments and complaints. you all have distinctly different real world experiences, come from different backgrounds, and are extremely stubborn (at least your online personas are).

you all have very insightful things to say initially, then one of you gets pissed, and starts attacking. then the defensive covers come out, and deep conversation ends. i love reading what you guys do indeed post, since it gives me a viewpoint and angle i've never considered previously. i just wish y'all would respect each other's opinions a bit more in your conversations.

and come somebody mail me a waffle? i don't think i'll be able to catch up with you guys for waffles on such short notice. or, snarf and I can just make some pumpkin pancakes. :D

[Handy Smurf]

As for the "good business sense" part, no, it doesn't make good sense. In one neighborhood here UDF stays unlocked all the time. Other stations get locked down. Yet UDF stays in business. So it's not "good sense".

Which neighborhood is that, and which stations are you referring to?

[Duemellon]

Which neighborhood is that, and which stations are you referring to?are you trying to restart the conversation or make me defend myself? :þ

Go up to the on 747 off the Michael A Fox at 3am. The UDF down in Madisonville stays open too, right at Ridge & Red River. Both are right next to highways, yet stay open.

[Handy Smurf]

are you trying to restart the conversation or make me defend myself? :þ

Go up to the on 747 off the Michael A Fox at 3am. The UDF down in Madisonville stays open too, right at Ridge & Red River. Both are right next to highways, yet stay open.
just curious. I always found it odd that (I cant think of the which gas station it is right now, lets say BP) the BP on Harrison on the edge of Cheviot does this at night. It is getting close to Westwood, a predominantly black and lower class neighborhood that has had some problems with crime, but I always thought the area where the BP is located was relatively nice and safe. For all I know, their management went to the "precaution" of locking it up after dark (thats right, last time I was there, it was locked at 8:30) because of some racially motivated fear or hatred made possible by the proximity to Westwood.
To be honest, though, my first inclination would be to assume that they've had problems with crime in the area, or that it was a corporate mandate, based on their proximity to a higher crime area.

The point that I think PO and Shlep have been trying to make, one that I tend to agree with, and one that has been harped upon before in several other threads, is that most of us arent inclined to point fingers and cry, "racism" in a knee-jerk way when there are other factors present that are just as legitimate to consider. In this case, the fact that practically everyone on this board has been the victim of bad/no service at a restaurant before, and most people have experienced this at a Cracker Barrel, led a lot of people to the conclusion that, "yeah, it could be racism, but the service at that place is notoriously bad."
For most of us, we respond differently to a situation where there is blatant racism than we would to a situation where there is the possibility of racism.


Now as far as PO and Shlep stifling the discussion:
A) It was Sunday. People rarely post on the weekends, especially in CE/P
B) If anyone's acerbic posts scared off potential participants, it was probably your exchange with upwithpeople. Due, there are probably a dozen or more regular CE/P posters who are on record as saying theyve "given up" on trying to have discussions with you. I don't understand why you adopted this defensive tactic in this thread. If there is anything in this thread that could be viewed as an insult, it would be your allegation that Shlep and PO have some vendetta against you. I've heard them talk (on the boards) before about how much they like you, and also in the past about how much they looked forward to meeting you in person.
C) I made the following posts and tried to enter the discussion, but you are in the habit of finding someone to argue with or refusing to be the first one to back down from an argument someone else starts with you. Lots of people are guilty of doing that, but you end up ignoring the other people you were calling for to toss their opinion into the ring, then later turn around and decry the fact that nobody wants to address the issues you brought up. I like participating in the conversation, but if you pose a question, I respond, and my 2 cents is totally ignored, please don't insult me by making a public request for other people to participate, while accusing other boarders of stifling conversation
I certainly wouldnt dismiss the possibility of it being racism, but I think most people's reactions were based on the fact that they've gotten shitty service in a Cracker Barrel before...
...
What a horrible fucking revelation, though, that a big chain restaurant has consistently been accused of racism spanning several locations in different states, and they basically mandated gay and lesbian discrimination as part of their company policy for 10 years.


well, in CB'c defense, it sounds like the manager followed the book on this one. It would be highly unprofessional for the manager to have that discussion with the waitress in front of other employees, let alone in front of customers. Obviously Mrs. Rock doesnt know a whole lot about business if that was her expectation.

One other thing. When I used to work in the restaurant bidniss, I worked with several former CB employees and one other person who had a daughter who worked there. It was unanimous that CB treated their employees like absolute shit.
Not trying to make any excuses, but it wouldnt surprise me if that management/employee relationship helps to foster the poor service that seems to be pretty universal at CBs

[Ambassador V3.0]

:D

"My two favorite diseases in the same room: yellow jaundice and the black plague."

--Fred G. Sanford to Aunt Ester and Pat Morita character

[Duemellon]

The point that I think PO and Shlep have been trying to make,...I've noticed you've done this before. I decide I'm not going to deal with Shlep & POct because they're getting irrational & you come in as a mediary on their behalf. Are you getting paid for legal representation?

I'd check with BS & LDog for the going rates before I proceeded any further, if I was you....most of us arent inclined to point fingers and cry, "racism" in a knee-jerk way...That, is of course, the question I'm asking. Although you have chosen to characterize it with a negative euphamism, what I am asking is why does it seem you & others who are recognized as a member of the majority tend to consider it "knee-jerk" & extremely unlikely, willing to go through many details & possibilities before saying racism is a reasonable cause to the outcome.

I think, yet again, I may get a response about how it's done or why it's done in an isolated view from the person perceived as member of the majority. In fact I'm asking you to step out of the defense of that view and compare it to those in the minority who seem to have a tendency to point to racism much easier & quicker than you.

Then, after that comparison, tell me why you would think the difference would be there.

[Duemellon]

...If anyone's acerbic posts scared off potential participants, it was probably your exchange with upwithpeople.He characterized what I said as if I used a racial slur. That sets me off. That simple. I am not apologetic for it. The question he had for me during that post was completely blocked out due to his poor choice of words (what he deemed comedy).

After pages of that back-n-forth bit he didn't have any interest in the actual topic of the conversation, he just wanted to prove I used bad syntax. Even after it was clear what the intent of the post was, he didn't even continue with that subject, he just rallied around what he believed to be bad syntax.If there is anything in this thread that could be viewed as an insult, it would be your allegation that Shlep and PO have some vendetta against you.They've said as much. Clearly. Repeatedly. If I was to produce these quotes would you be able to change that to say: "I understand they have a vendetta against you" or would you still defend them as if they didn't have one?...if you pose a question, I respond, and my 2 cents is totally ignored, please don't insult me by making a public request for other people to participate,...If you did it was totally lost in the heat of the anger towards UWP about him putting racial slurs in my mouth.

[gwar469]

i think racism is considered, but since it's not the only possible reason for the poor service, it's not identified as the end-all, say-all reason. would we be making the same dismissive comments towards racism if it were a white-person in a black-run restaurant?

you want a viewpoint from a white-person as a minority? i've eaten in plenty of restaurants in predominantly black neighborhoods, where i've been given funny looks from the moment i walked in. there were times when it seemed like i got slower service than many others, my food wasn't quite right, and the experience just wasn't enjoyable. now, at the time, i could rightly scream out that i was a victim of racism, in my mind. and at that time, i would have felt completely in my right, given the situation. however, if i were to go back and look at the circumstances (food i ordered, where i sat, etc.), maybe it wasn't something as deeply malicious as racism, and i was just unfortunate. that said, i can honestly see how Mrs. Rock (among many other minority people) could take a situation such as they were in and feel it was a racist moment. while it may not have been the true intent, given the situation, it is a completely acceptible and justifiable opinion to have.

[Duemellon]

i think racism is considered, but since it's not the only possible reason for the poor service, it's not identified as the end-all, say-all reason. would we be making the same dismissive comments towards racism if it were a white-person in a black-run restaurant?Now, the question I have is do you think the other side (ie: minoriteis) claims racism too frequently? & if you think/feel they do, why do you think they do (from your own view)?

As for the white person in a black majority situation, there are many reasons why the analogy is bad as well as reasons it is fine. Mostly doing with a history of experiencing it as well as being able to "turn it off" & the feeling of entitlement. It's not to say it's so dissimilar it should be forgotten, but I would like to know if you feel minorities use that as a reason too quickly & if so, why do they use it so quickly?

[classicgrrl]

I'm a racist
He's a racist
She's a racist
They're racist

Wouldn't you like to be a racist too? [/old skool]

damn, I miss those doctor pepper commercials.
:(

[gwar469]

Now, the question I have is do you think the other side (ie: minoriteis) claims racism too frequently? & if you think/feel they do, why do you think they do (from your own view)?

As for the white person in a black majority situation, there are many reasons why the analogy is bad as well as reasons it is fine. Mostly doing with a history of experiencing it as well as being able to "turn it off" & the feeling of entitlement. It's not to say it's so dissimilar it should be forgotten, but I would like to know if you feel minorities use that as a reason too quickly & if so, why do they use it so quickly?

i think in general instances of society, minorities claim racism too much. however, given the history that white-dominated america has of oppresing minorities, can i blame them? no, i can't. while racism may not be the intent in all situations, the precedent that has been set up by history has allowed it to become an easy answer. racism does indeed still exist in this world, but i'd like to think it's not nearly as bad as it was just 20 or 30 years ago. but the history, and the things that minorties have had to deal with, do make it commonplace for a minority to think something is racist when it's not.

[Shlep]

I've noticed you've done this before. I decide I'm not going to deal with Shlep & POct because they're getting irrational & you come in as a mediary on their behalf. Are you getting paid for legal representation?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/paulbubel/tinfoil-hat.jpg

Damn! Due has cleverly winkled out the connection between me, purple_octopus, and the sinister and shady law firm of Handy Smurf & Associates.


Please, Due...go lay down. Breathe deeply. Something.

[weeone]

Let's start a waffle chain letter. Send a waffle to the person at the bottom of this thread, and you'll receive 8 in the mail in 6 days, or else you'll get hit by a truck by an Eggo delivery man ?

[Jumbo Shrimp]

Let's start a waffle chain letter. Send a waffle to the person at the bottom of this thread, and you'll receive 8 in the mail in 6 days, or else you'll get hit by a truck by an Eggo delivery man ?
Hahahahahaha!!!!!

[Duemellon]

i think in general instances of society, minorities claim racism too much. however, given the history that white-dominated america has of oppresing minorities, can i blame them? no, i can't.So, if you feel that minorities claim racism too much/often & you feel racism is not the only possible reason for the poor service (it's not identified as the end-all, say-all reason) what's the reason for the disparity?

Now I understand in your heart-of-hearts you may believe that racism shouldn't be the reaction because you believe facts will come to disprove its existance, but what I'm asking about is perception.

How did you end up on one side of this view & they on the other?

It's not a matter of being more rational or more intelligent, as the ability to discern racism from normal shitty service is part of rationally weighing the circumstances & the people who talk about racism aren't always the folks with less than 70 IQs (& of course their reversed counterparts, those who have IQs under 70 & are irrational also think racism won't be there when investigate "most of the time").

So, what's the reason for this disparity in view? How did you end up on one side & they on the other? Not debating who's more right or wrong seeing as we can all concede there are smart & rational (as well as dumb & irrational) on either side of this.

[markalot]

So, if you feel that minorities claim racism too much/often & you feel racism is not the only possible reason for the poor service (it's not identified as the end-all, say-all reason) what's the reason for the disparity?

What's the reason for anyone getting poor service? Looks, attitude, rudeness, smell, luck.

Racism will be replaced with some other ism, but as long as people think racism exists it will continue to exist.

[Duemellon]

What's the reason for anyone getting poor service? Looks, attitude, rudeness, smell, luck.

Racism will be replaced with some other ism, but as long as people think racism exists it will continue to exist.So you believe that, most likely... (like, by "most" I mean pretty-damned-sure & would have to be disproven heavily to change the view) So you beleive that, most likely, they are receiving the same amount of mistreatment as anyone else would've for so many other factors other than race? Such as smell, rudeness, etc?

So, my question goes back to that of personal comparison...
Do you feel there are intelligent & rational minorities who still claim racism when in a situation where you wouldn't claim racism?

& if so (this is the big thing I'm asking) how can two rational & intelligent people, basically on par with each other, have two different perceptions?

[markalot]

& if so (this is the big thing I'm asking) how can two rational & intelligent people, basically on par with each other, have two different perceptions?

I'm white. If I go into a black neighborhood and someone gives me a dirty look I immediatly think racism. They hate me because I'm white. How can I expect any less from someone else? If an old white woman gives me a dirty look I think she's just a grumpy old hag (which is another ism). If a sharp dressed business type gives me a dirty look I think classism. The only way to combat my fears, rational or otherwise, is to stop having them. I adress everyone with respect and expect the same in kind.

There's a lot of issue rapped up into racism Due. Some of it is classic racism, some of it is classism (is that a word?), some of it is dress or looks. You won't be happy until we say it's all racism, but I don't really care.

This lawsuit didn't reduce racism, it created more racists. Do you doubt the truth in that statement?

[aqualou]

You won't be happy until we say it's all racism.
i haven'tread every post having to do with racism . . . i don't have 5 hours a day to do so, but have we agreed that racism do go all ways? "both ways" neglegts to realize the are more then 2 races.

i was walking in the big snow storm in over the rhine, cincinnati last year when i was hit with several snowballs from 3 black teens. i don't think they would have throw them at me if i was black . . . i think that's minor assalt . . . would that then make it a hate crime? nope . . . i'm not black, muslim, jewish, female or gay.

[Handy Smurf]

I've noticed you've done this before. I decide I'm not going to deal with Shlep & POct because they're getting irrational & you come in as a mediary on their behalf. Are you getting paid for legal representation?
I'm sorry that the truth (that nobody ever agrees with you in any of these threads) hurts, Due, but its worth pointing out that I'm in agreement with others, as theyve already made many of my arguments for me. One of the things that makes debating with you difficult is you have this inability to realize that you are the lone crazy conspircy theorist out there in a sea of people who disagree with you. You carry on conversations with other people and act as if theyre some lone nut job out to get you, when really, the entire thread has been made up of people having seperate disagreements with you. I kind of wonder if there was ever just a thread where everybody only posted once, and came in and said, "Sorry, Due, but you're wrong on this one" if you'd be able to get it, or if you'd still think there was this big contingent of boarders agreeing with you and getting your back

Additionally, you have this bizarre and frustrating ability to completely ignore people's valid points and go diving for insignificant minutia to attack them with. I figured it was worth reiterating a point I agreed with and trying to clarify it, but instead of you making any effort to say, "Oh, well, I don't really agree, but that POV at least makes sense," you attack me for referencing other boarders (who I'm agreeing with--and who spent the last 3 pages debating with you) in my posts.
Now you'll probably spend the rest of your time in this thread attacking me for ridiculous, insignificant tripe like this rather than actually address any points that I brought up. If you get too flustered, you'll make up some kind of excuse to not continue with the conversation.

I think, yet again, I may get a response about how it's done or why it's done in an isolated view from the person perceived as member of the majority. In fact I'm asking you to step out of the defense of that view and compare it to those in the minority who seem to have a tendency to point to racism much easier & quicker than you.

Then, after that comparison, tell me why you would think the difference would be there.
This has been explained repeatedly. Do you really want/need me to get into it again?

[Juliana]

i haven'tread every post having to do with racism . . . i don't have 5 hours a day to do so, but have we agreed that racism do go all ways? "both ways" neglegts to realize the are more then 2 races.

i was walking in the big snow storm in over the rhine, cincinnati last year when i was hit with several snowballs from 3 black teens. i don't think they would have throw them at me if i was black . . . i think that's minor assalt . . . would that then make it a hate crime? nope . . . i'm not black, muslim, jewish, female or gay.

I'd actually argue that if they did do it because you were white, that of course it's a hate crime, or at least a racially moviated crime. Hate crimes or racially motivated crimes are done against one group by another, specifically based on the fact that it's different races or sexual orientations. Doesn't matter which group sparks it, just that it's because of that difference.

[gwar469]

So, what's the reason for this disparity in view? How did you end up on one side & they on the other? Not debating who's more right or wrong seeing as we can all concede there are smart & rational (as well as dumb & irrational) on either side of this.

"personal experience" would be the answer i'd give.

being a white male from a 100% white german, catholic upbringing, i'd never had to deal with racism directed at me until i moved away from that sheltered upbringing (about 10 years ago). even then, the instances were minor, and because i was raised where it wasn't a factor, it's just never been a major factor for me.

i'm sure all minorties, regardless of location of upbrining in this country, have been the victims of some real, scarring racism. probably repeatedly. now, whenever something negative happens to them from a person of another race, they immediately have to wonder if there was some racist intent. there personal experiences have shown to them that it is indeed a possibility, whether it's the right answer or not.

also, unfortunately, in this day and age, if you use the word "racism" you'll see results a lot quicker, since the word rightly carries a bad stigma with it.

[Duemellon]

There's a lot of issue rapped up into racism Due. Some of it is classic racism, some of it is classism (is that a word?), some of it is dress or looks. You won't be happy until we say it's all racism, but I don't really care.I do believe you're taking a defensive stance on this one based on assumptions. In no way have I said "It's all racism" & never have I said that other -isms don't exist or are utterly irrelevent.

I am asking these questions not because I'm trying to prove racism or talk about how wide racism is, but more about the perceptions held by one group in the majority when compared to the other view held by the minority.

It would seem most people are retreating to stances of defending themselves or attacking others when really, that's the limit of the discussion I'm trying to have.

Just as rational & intelligent as you think you are, do you think those people who claim racism (when you don't believe there is) are being rational & intelligent? If you think they aren't being so, what mechanism is making them "turn it off". If you think they are being so, how can both of you look at the same situation & come up with such different results?

[the happy prole]

The problem with complaining about racism is that there are not that many people who are pure racists in an overt way.

Most of the people who will treat others badly because of race are the same people who will hate you because you look rich, or dress different, or you might be gay, or you're a woman, or you listen to weird music.

There's a difference between people who are racist, and people who are racist as a symptom of being assholes. My feeling is-- every person you treat badly is a point against you. If you're racist that's a lot of points. If you're an asshole it's even more points.

Yet somehow this has gotten flipped around. We've gotten to the point where we accuse assholes get away with it until they do it to a minority. And
then they get accused of racism, and then the fact that they treat everyone badly becomes a valid defense. "I'm an asshole" should never be a defense to anything.

[Duemellon]

"personal experience" would be the answer i'd give.Your personal experience (if you are a member of the majority who dismisses their claim), however, suggests racism is not as prominent. If you believe yourself to be rational & intelligent, & think they are, you are trumping their personal experience with you own, right? As reasonable as you consider your own view, is it possible they are being reasonable as well or are they just out-n-out wrong?...whenever something negative happens to them from a person of another race, they immediately have to wonder if there was some racist intent. there personal experiences have shown to them that it is indeed a possibility, whether it's the right answer or not.We can all agree there's some Pavlovian conditioning happening there. Is it possible that as much as they may be trained to find racism you've been trained to ignore/deny it?

Just asking if it's a possibility, not making a claim of it being true.also, unfortunately, in this day and age, if you use the word "racism" you'll see results a lot quicker, since the word rightly carries a bad stigma with it.There's no debating the power of racist accusations. It's a Salem trial-like term. Being a witch, loyalist, communist, has been replaced by this.

So, just to reiterate my questions: Your personal experiences say racism probably isn't there. Their experiences say it is more likely than what you think. Is your personal experience better & if so, how?


We can agree people can be trained to see racism even when/if it's not there, is it therefore possible for someone to be conditioned to ignore/excuse/deny racism?

[akip]

while people don't like it when they suspect that they're resented for what they have, racism's a bit different 'cause it threatens to keep one from succeeding. even women and gays generally have more options---though being gay isn't exactly a picnic either these days.

[Duemellon]

The problem with complaining about racism is that there are not that many people who are pure racists in an overt way.Interesting point which I agree with wholeheartedly. Especially since those who are overt racists are conscious of the fact & are "extremists" nowadays instead of the mainstream.Most of the people who will treat others badly because of race are the same people who will hate you because you look rich, or dress different, or you might be gay, or you're a woman, or you listen to weird music.I will not agree with this. An asshole is an asshole and someone who is truly one will be an equal-opportunity one, but treating someone badly could be a conditioned response based on tertiary features inconsequential to the goal.

Even kind nice-hearted grannies may find themselves pulling a reaction which is biased due to some bad information tehy received or conditioning they have had.Yet somehow this has gotten flipped around. We've gotten to the point where we accuse assholes get away with it until they do it to a minority.trippy indeed.

Hey, in the reality of someone who's just a friggin asshole, I totally agree with what you're saying. However, I see many people who make baised decisions but aren't assholes themselves. They're misinformed, base it on a hard-to-explain feeling, or produce non-racist reasons why the results are consistently disproportionate.

[gwar469]

So, just to reiterate my questions: Your personal experiences say racism probably isn't there. Their experiences say it is more likely than what you think. Is your personal experience better & if so, how?

my personal experiences aren't better, just different. i didn't grow up being occasionally hated on just for something as basic as differing skin color/ethnic background. if someone wants to claim racism, i can't tell them that their feelings are "wrong", since i've never had to go through what they did. all i can do is empathize and try to see things from their angle.

We can agree people can be trained to see racism even when/if it's not there, is it therefore possible for someone to be conditioned to ignore/excuse/deny racism?

i think it's very possible for someone to be conditioned to turn a blind-eye to racism. hell...look at the Republican party. :p ;)

racism seems to almost be equivalent to the political spectrum: you've got your far one side that sees everything as racist, the far other side that claims it doesn't exist, then all the rest of us who are sincerely trying to figure out exactly what the other side sees/feels. (not identified anyone by any means with that last statement).

[the happy prole]

I certainly believe that real racism certainly exists-- both in the form of unconscious bias or stereotypes and real hatred for people based on race.

The problem is, it's hard to prove. The reason this story is getting play is more because it's Chris Rock's mom than because of racism. I have no idea whether Chris Rock's mom is trustworthy or not when it comes to crying "racism." And we don't have enough facts to make a decision.

I think what we would could agree on is that Cracker Barrel service sucks a lot of the time. No one should have to wait 30 minutes for service. That's wrong, and that's all you need. It doesn't matter if they were racist, assholes, or merely incompetent. They were in the wrong. Why not start from there?

There's something messed up about saying "Well, I hesitate to come down on Cracker Barrel because they dicked me over and I'm white." We could be on Ms. Rock's side instead of defending Cracker Barrel. The fact that the service is terrible and that they have actually been proven to have anti-gay practices is getting lost in the shuffle.

[Duemellon]

all i can do is empathize and try to see things from their angle.So, if you are really that open to the idea that racism may exist but you don't see it, what would it take to prove it to you? Would you even care to have it proven to you? If it was proven to you, what would you do with it?even women and gays generally have more optionsThere are very few gays that have unsupressable butch/effete behavoir. Most can hide in a crowd and be "normal" with no real problems. Most Jews, European immigrants, & Satanist too!

For some reason, obese, redheads, handicapped, & darker skinned folks can't hide as easily. Not sure why...The problem is, it's hard to prove.That's one thing I find mystifying. When the results show a consistent disparity we know it's in there somewhere.

When you get widgets out of a machine it has to have some mechanism in there making widgets. Whether it's accidental or it's a widget-fabricator.

[gwar469]

So, if you are really that open to the idea that racism may exist but you don't see it, what would it take to prove it to you? Would you even care to have it proven to you? If it was proven to you, what would you do with it?

i don't see what you're getting at here, due. i do believe that racism exists, and that it exists moreso in certain parts of the country. it doesn't need to be proven to me. i believe that there are people out there who intentionally treat people with different ethnic backgrounds wrongly. or are you speaking in general terms or certain circumstances?

[Duemellon]

i don't see what you're getting at here, due. i do believe that racism exists, and that it exists moreso in certain parts of the country. it doesn't need to be proven to me. i believe that there are people out there who intentionally treat people with different ethnic backgrounds wrongly. or are you speaking in general terms or certain circumstances?I'm talking about specific instances. Such as, if you were to look at this incident & not see racism, how could your initial view be reproached?

Now, you believe racism affects peoples' lives. You believe it's out there, but the whole thing about this bit o' questioning is to find out how much you care & what would have to happen for that concern to turn into action, if possible?

However, instead of asking those questions, there are details to it I'm curious about such as:
If you looked at this incident & believed racism was almost an ignorable possibility, what would it take to change your view on that?

If such criteria was proven, would anything come of it?

[Juliana]

For some reason, obese, redheads, handicapped, & darker skinned folks can't hide as easily. Not sure why...That's one thing I find mystifying. When the results show a consistent disparity we know it's in there somewhere.


Are there hueists now too? Seriously?

[justmaybetiger]

Are there hueists now too? Seriously?
It ain't easy being red!

[Shlep]

Lousy, stinkin' redheads!! "Better dead than red" I say!!












...hey, at least there sin't an entire genre of jokes predicated on the presumption that redheads are stupid.

[gwar469]

I'm talking about specific instances. Such as, if you were to look at this incident & not see racism, how could your initial view be reproached?

Now, you believe racism affects peoples' lives. You believe it's out there, but the whole thing about this bit o' questioning is to find out how much you care & what would have to happen for that concern to turn into action, if possible?

However, instead of asking those questions, there are details to it I'm curious about such as:
If you looked at this incident & believed racism was almost an ignorable possibility, what would it take to change your view on that?

If such criteria was proven, would anything come of it?

gotcha.

for myself, if i didn't see racism, it would take some sort of tangible evidence to get me to think racism. were the minorities being completely ignored while every table around them was being waited on? were actual ethnic slurs and/or suspiciously looks being made? were the wait staff acting generally "funny" around the minorities? something that would probably have to be pretty physically obvious.

now, if the racism is known to me, i'm not sure what i can really do in this situation. do i make it known to the manager that i'm displeased? go to the media? simply offer my support to the minority? refuse to ever eat at said establishment? i mean, i'd be pissed at the situation, but what would be a proper response to the situation?

[Duemellon]

Are there hueists now too? Seriously?Redheads are assumed to be Irish or Scottish, typically. However, the silliness of the statement was intentional.now, if the racism is known to me, i'm not sure what i can really do in this situation.I think this is a major part of why people who, even though they're part of the majority(speaking power/influence) don't investigate or act against racism... They don't see any affective or meaningful way.

The tragedy is, of course, those in the minority are, by nature of the word, in a position of less power/influence to stop the infraction. In fact, the only ones who can really stop the infractions are those others in the majority who see the infraction.

So, it's necessary for the innocent (or even not-so-innocent) majority-bystander to not only notice the racism, but to do something about it. However, what to do? any ideas?

[upwithpeople]

So, it's necessary for the innocent (or even not-so-innocent) majority-bystander to not only notice the racism, but to do something about it. However, what to do? any ideas?The only solution to a complex issue is to verbally masturbate for as long as possible.

[gwar469]

So, it's necessary for the innocent (or even not-so-innocent) majority-bystander to not only notice the racism, but to do something about it. However, what to do? any ideas?

educate the ignorant, but that's near impossible. there's always going to be people hating other people because their parents and their parent's parents did.

[Duemellon]

educate the ignorant, but that's near impossible. there's always going to be people hating other people because their parents and their parent's parents did.So, if you feel it's near impossible to fix does that affect how much you care about it? What if you were someone being discriminated against, consistently (or at least felt you were), do you think the "I can't change it so I'll live with it" attitude is sustainable?

Another uncomfortable thought...

What happens when/if you find out that the results of your actions have been coming out in such a way they appear biased?

[Handy Smurf]

I cant believe an entire page of conversation has gone on in this thread to arrive at the conclusion that

"I can't be sure its racism in this instance because I don't have all the facts. Based on Cracker Barrel's history, the odds seem to go up in the favor of a racial incident, but at the same time, nearly everyone has had an experience with lousy service at CB, so what we really need is more evidence before we go around LABELING PEOPLE"


it seems to me that that exact thing has been said in here on several occasions by about 6 different people already

[purple_octopus]

I cant believe an entire page of conversation has gone on in this thread to arrive at the conclusion that

"I can't be sure its racism in this instance because I don't have all the facts. Based on Cracker Barrel's history, the odds seem to go up in the favor of a racial incident, but at the same time, nearly everyone has had an experience with lousy service at CB, so what we really need is more evidence before we go around LABELING PEOPLE"


it seems to me that that exact thing has been said in here on several occasions by about 6 different people already
What he said.

[gwar469]

So, if you feel it's near impossible to fix does that affect how much you care about it? What if you were someone being discriminated against, consistently (or at least felt you were), do you think the "I can't change it so I'll live with it" attitude is sustainable?

Another uncomfortable thought...

What happens when/if you find out that the results of your actions have been coming out in such a way they appear biased?

nope, it doesn't affect how much i care, because i'm always there for an ear and a shoulder when one of my minority friends has a problem. just because i haven't directly lived with it, doesn't mean i've been totally unaffected by racism.

one of my friends recently was upset when i referred to her as a "mulatto", saying it's an inappropriate word now. this is something i didn't know, because another friend of mine years ago said it was the proper word to use. i stopped using the word, and tell people who use the word that it's inappropriate.

instead of the majority having to pick the brains of the minority and think of ways to fix the problem, why not have the minorities come out with ideas and take them to open-minded people in the majority? the majority, although in their best intentions, haven't exactly done a very fair job in representing minorities. maybe it's just as simple as minorities making a simple list of demands for respect and putting it out there. naive? probably very much so.

[DaHood]

What he said.
...and again...

[gwar469]

I cant believe an entire page of conversation has gone on in this thread to arrive at the conclusion that

"I can't be sure its racism in this instance because I don't have all the facts. Based on Cracker Barrel's history, the odds seem to go up in the favor of a racial incident, but at the same time, nearly everyone has had an experience with lousy service at CB, so what we really need is more evidence before we go around LABELING PEOPLE"


it seems to me that that exact thing has been said in here on several occasions by about 6 different people already

hey, i'm trying to keep this conversation away from the CB instance, and more on a general topic now. we all know CB just plain sucks. :p

[Duemellon]

instead of the majority having to pick the brains of the minority and think of ways to fix the problem, why not have the minorities come out with ideas and take them to open-minded people in the majority?The minorities with ideas don't have power. When they've spoken about solutions they can't get an ear or they get dismissed as being too pie-in-the-sky hopeful.

It's odd that the peanut gallery has totally missed some important things in the conversation me & u are having. I know you say you can appreciate the idea a minority in that situation may think it's racism, & that you might be trained to ignore/dismiss racism, but the question is how do we find the facts?

I know you say you want some hard evidence, but the minority may tell you the evidence is already there. How do those things get reconciled?

[gwar469]

I know you say you want some hard evidence, but the minority may tell you the evidence is already there. How do those things get reconciled?

well, we have a diversity course here at work that is supposed to be geared towards getting people to open up their viewpoints and see things from other angles. whether or not is works, it's hard to say. but i do know that there is pretty good ethnic diversity and general contentment among employees. maybe something as simple as required diversity classes for children to try to combat the ignorace? kids would soak up the learnings, but it would be hard to get something as liberal as that into school curriculums.

[markalot]

one of my friends recently was upset when i referred to her as a "mulatto", saying it's an inappropriate word now. this is something i didn't know, because another friend of mine years ago said it was the proper word to use. i stopped using the word, and tell people who use the word that it's inappropriate.

Isn't that the problem? Now a word or description is suddenly inappropriate? Who decides this shit? Who suddenly determines that a word or phrase is inappropriate?

Racism will continue to be perpetuated by those who want it to end. If you can't see this then you're blind.

That black guy, oh, I'm sorry, african american, no wait, black is ok, no, why mention the color at all ... ok, that guy over there ... what guy, that guy ... describe him ... um, tall, black hair, dark complected ... what the fuck you mean dark complected ... oh, uh, sorry fuck it, that BLACK GUY over there ... OMG you total racist fuck ...

[the happy prole]

Nah. I would say most rational people would like to see racism end. Seeoms like kind of a no-brainer. And rational people understand when they or someone else makes a mistake.

If you use "mulatto" but don't mean anything by it then someone just tells you nicely "Hey, try something else." And you say "Sorry" and move on. No big deal.

The whole PC word choice game is more ineffectual than it is damaging. As long as people hate blacks then no matter what word you use for "black" people will use it in a hateful manner or simply come up with another one.

I dislike the activists who worry about words like that because it seems like a huge waste of time. But I also pretty much have no sympathy for the "anti-PC Nazi" crowd. Someone says "I don't like being called X." You want to throw a fit about it and continue to call them X, then they are going to think you're a jackass. Which is no only their right, but from an objective standpoint, fairly reasonable. So deal with it.

[weeone]

I hate the word for creamy, aged dairy products. The connotations of the proper name for this culinary delight bring absolutely horrific images to the mind which completely bastardize and destroy the original craft and prestige. Let's restore cheese to its once enjoyed grandeur - let's give the power back to cheese.

[classicgrrl]

Nah. I would say most rational people would like to see racism end. Seeoms like kind of a no-brainer. And rational people understand when they or someone else makes a mistake.

If you use "mulatto" but don't mean anything by it then someone just tells you nicely "Hey, try something else." And you say "Sorry" and move on. No big deal.

The whole PC word choice game is more ineffectual than it is damaging. As long as people hate blacks then no matter what word you use for "black" people will use it in a hateful manner or simply come up with another one.

I dislike the activists who worry about words like that because it seems like a huge waste of time. But I also pretty much have no sympathy for the "anti-PC Nazi" crowd. Someone says "I don't like being called X." You want to throw a fit about it and continue to call them X, then they are going to think you're a jackass. Which is no only their right, but from an objective standpoint, fairly reasonable. So deal with it.

frankly, if you just label everyone MUTT then this whole arguement becomes null and void.

[upwithpeople]

I hate the word for creamy, aged dairy products. The connotations of the proper name for this culinary delight bring absolutely horrific images to the mind which completely bastardize and destroy the original craft and prestige. Let's restore cheese to its once enjoyed grandeur - let's give the power back to cheese.Can we also work on "cracker" while we're at it? It's time the two ended their feud.
http://www.bigstockphoto.com/thumbs/4/9/1/medium/194207.jpg

[the happy prole]

I know you say you want some hard evidence, but the minority may tell you the evidence is already there. How do those things get reconciled?

See this is what I was talking about when I said it's hard to prove. Usually when race issues get brought up, it's in response to a specific incident. And it's very hard (for example in this case) to say that Chris Rock's mom was a victim of racism with the facts at hand.

When you talk about the problem of racism, I think you're really looking to do is solve a societal issue. I mean, Person X might be a flaming racist but there will always be whackos. We can let it go to some extent if society as a whole doesn't condone it.

The problem (and I do appreciate it's a significant problem) is that for this to work you have to point at large populations and staggering statistics. And then people say "What can I do about it? Society is racist but I'm not. And I'm just one guy-- I can't fight the system."

Still, I think that's the tack you have to take. You'll never convince a rational person on the basis of anecdotal evidence. You have a chance of doing so with large scale statistics and not putting the personal responsibility all on their shoulders. Get them to be aware and move the issue a long in their own tiny way, and if millions of people do it you've made progress.

For some reason, people think that the way to eliminate racism is via personal confrontation and generally trying to slap people in the face with it. I think those days are gone. It was necessary in the civil rights era; now I think you get a lot more traction mobilizing rather than informing. DOING something about racism has taken a front seat to educating people about racism, but the transition hasn't been made within the minority community. And they frankly do a shitty job educating their own members about racism, which also comes back to haunt them.

[Duemellon]

You'll never convince a rational person on the basis of anecdotal evidence.This here is the main thing I've been talking about.

This pretty much suggests the person claiming racism is irrational. However, you have known many minorities who appear "rational" up to this point. Is it that their ability to be rational is stripped away instantally when this happenes? Or is it possible they're being rational & see the evidence you say isn't significant?

After all, thre are probably a bunch of ftimes the same minority has dismissed things that were borderline racist using their rational side, but to them the moment they're referring to has crossed a line which signifies to them, in their rational state, something happened.

Also, racism doesn't have to a huge continuance of a practice to be real. A person could be a squeaky-clean equalist but fall down once & it be a racist mooment. Such a slip-up would probably be forgiveable except for the fact it affects someone else's life & opportunity.

The affects of the discrimination, whether just once or a pattern, are real for the victim. Small infractions may seem like nothing but there's a cost involved.

[markalot]

Also, racism doesn't have to a huge continuance of a practice to be real. A person could be a squeaky-clean equalist but fall down once & it be a racist mooment. Such a slip-up would probably be forgiveable except for the fact it affects someone else's life & opportunity.

Forgiveable except? Everything each of us does affects someone else.

Have you ever seen an overbearing parent tell a kid not to drop something and the kid drops it because they're nervous? That's the thing about racism, it's gone beyond intent and turned into a label people can use against each other. Slip up and I'll get your ass. Slip up and I don't care what your intent is, you're a racist.

The result is people give up. "Fuck em, I'm tired of trying." Racism exhaustion.

[Duemellon]

The result is people give up. "Fuck em, I'm tired of trying." Racism exhaustion.Try imagining being the other side: The person hindered & blocked by racism. As tired as you are about walking on pins & needles picture yourself having door after door closed, not because of anything you can do or even something relevent to the situation.

If I didn't get the job as a fireman because I'm out of shape or physically unable to do the job, that's one thing. If I didn't get it because I asked too much money, that's one thing. If I didn't get it because someone else had a degree in Fireology & I didn't, that's one thing. If I didn't get it because of something as irrelevent as the color of my skin, the way I drop my "g" on "ings" or because my father was the son of a sharecropper, that's something totally different.

As frustrated as you are worrying about making that one mistake, imagine being in a world where, hundreds of times different individuals in the majority has made that "one mistake in a blue moon" in a way that limited you.

again...
again...
and again...

[Duemellon]

I guess one of the things that's emerging from this discussion is the "compassion factor". Is it possible that somewhere along the line you (asking all of you) haven't really put yourself in "their shoes"? Irregardless (http://new.woxy.com/boards/showthread.php?t=42075) of what side of the fence you're on, can you say you've seen both sides & are being considerate of the possibilities?

When it's easy for you to believe it's wasn't racism why is it so tough for them? Are they genuinely stupid, niave, or irrational?

When it's easy for you to say you're tired of trying to keep your personal racism in check, do you really think it has no effect?

That's what the questions I had were about. If you don't see the racism because you're "rational, intelligent, & not as cynical" does that mean the people who claimed "racism" aren't so? If they were rational, intelligent, & not as cynical, throughout the rest of their lives, why do you feel like they've "turned it off" at that moment? What about the reverse?

Isn't it possible you're actually wrong & being irrational or niave?

[Handy Smurf]

You'll never convince a rational person on the basis of anecdotal evidence.

This here is the main thing I've been talking about.

This pretty much suggests the person claiming racism is irrational.
No.
No it doesnt.
It doesnt suggest anything.

Lets say person A was the victim of a racist act. Person A has only anecdotal evidence to support their case. Person A is a rational person

Person B is also rational. Person B hears the anecdotal evidence about the alleged racist incident from Person A. Person B has never met person A and has no reason to think they're a liar.

Person C was the one who perpetrated the racist act against Person A. Person C tells his side of the story to Person B but is dishonest and misleading. Person B has never met person C and has no reason to think theyre a liar.

Person B now has recieved 2 seperate accounts of the event. The two accounts contradict each other. Without any facts or and objective account of the incident to go forward with, why should Person B believe A or C?

You can even remove Person C altogether. Pretend they werent around to share their POV with person B. If Person B really doesnt know Person A from Adam, why should they make up their mind about what happened based only on Person A's subjective retelling of the events? Maybe there was something that Person A misinterpreted, or misunderstood?

At no point in there does it indicate that anyone needs to be "Irrational"

[markalot]

When it's easy for you to say you're tired of trying to keep your personal racism in check, do you really think it has no effect?

Isn't that an interesting way to ask that question? Why did you assume personal racism existed at all?

In my opinion you are pretty much correct, but you fail to apply what you have stated are truths to YOUR side of the equation. If you assume I (whoever) have personal racism that I'm trying to keep in check then you need to also assume you have personal racism. If we both have it then it must be considered in every situation.

Someone claiming racism might have assumed it was going to happen (aka walking into Cracker Barrel) and then was looking for it to happen. At the same time someone who thinks racism is called too much is looking for someone to falsley claim racism so they can validate their beliefs.

[Duemellon]

No.
No it doesnt.
It doesnt suggest anything.Being "irrational" would be someone using "anecdotal" evidence. It's part of the statement that suggests they're irrational.

The fact that person A is using "anecdotal" evidence at all is a sign they're not being rational/logical. No one rational uses that as a basis for hard evidence. The most they could do is say they're suspicious of it being so.

Now, if person A was using convincing evidence then they're being rational, but if person B declares it's anecdotal instead, who's being irrational?

The question then becomes:
Why is it convincing to one & anecdotal to the other?

[Duemellon]

Isn't that an interesting way to ask that question? Why did you assume personal racism existed at all?Because you're a citizen of this society having grown up with it's leanings....you need to also assume you have personal racism. If we both have it then it must be considered in every situation.I've never denied such & even made sure to word certain things to include the possibility of the victim's own expectation of bias affecting the outcome.

However, I'm not talking to someone who's in that situation right now. Most of the people here (if not all) are in the position of initially being considered part of the majority. As much as it's their (minorities') responsibility to remove themselves from their own bias, they really aren't here to address.

I have, however, made it a point to phrase my questions & observations considering that.

[Juliana]

frankly, if you just label everyone MUTT then this whole arguement becomes null and void.

I don't think you can do that either. There are people who identify with their cultural/racial/ethnic/national herritage, and taking that away isn't a fair solution either.

As stated before, I'm white as hell, but I'm deeply proud of my Mexican & hispanic herritage, and I'd be offended if someone decided to discount that out of hand, even if it was on the premis of bringing everyone together.

There's just no easy answer to any of this.

[akip]

I guess one of the things that's emerging from this discussion is the "compassion factor". Is it possible that somewhere along the line you (asking all of you) haven't really put yourself in "their shoes"? Irregardless (http://new.woxy.com/boards/showthread.php?t=42075) of what side of the fence you're on, can you say you've seen both sides & are being considerate of the possibilities?

When it's easy for you to believe it's wasn't racism why is it so tough for them? Are they genuinely stupid, niave, or irrational?

When it's easy for you to say you're tired of trying to keep your personal racism in check, do you really think it has no effect?

That's what the questions I had were about. If you don't see the racism because you're "rational, intelligent, & not as cynical" does that mean the people who claimed "racism" aren't so? If they were rational, intelligent, & not as cynical, throughout the rest of their lives, why do you feel like they've "turned it off" at that moment? What about the reverse?

Isn't it possible you're actually wrong & being irrational or niave?

my own irrationality, based on personal experience in restaurant work, would lead me to suspect racism. none of the restaurants i worked in wanted black customers. i worked with managers, bartenders and wait staff who would do things like overcharge for drinks at the bar, deliberately make black couples wait for service, gripe about how blacks don't tip well, etc. but i wasn't a fly on the wall at cracker barrel (god, what a miserable existence that would be) so i can't really say what happened there.

[Duemellon]

I don't think you can do that either. There are people who identify with their cultural/racial/ethnic/national herritage, and taking that away isn't a fair solution either.

As stated before, I'm white as hell, but I'm deeply proud of my Mexican & hispanic herritage, and I'd be offended if someone decided to discount that out of hand, even if it was on the premis of bringing everyone together.

There's just no easy answer to any of this.Exactly. There is a degree of history to be proud of that, many times, is lost on people who are part of the majority. Claiming a status of a minority doesn't necessarily mean you're volunteering for a life of victimhood or disappointment. Some chose it because they feel a better connection with that religion, history, or contemporary culture. There are so many people who can pass as white that take on the mantle of other cultures they feel they have a claim to it. Heck, some just whip out their other sides when it's convenient.

It's all ok.

The world is much larger than the US's history & we tend to forget that. We are so focused on what the US has done, seen, or came from (Western Europe) that we get the impression that Russian history, Middle Eastern, West Asia, & others, just pale in comparison.

Being a "mutt" isn't just eclipsing the diversity of history, it's actually impossible. Even if it was done there'd be some claim of diversity. People like being different. Let them.

[Duemellon]

...so i can't really say what happened there.Now, seeing as you were able to observe this, it increased your likelihood of believing it's racial bias. However, even though you said it was more likely, you're being "rational" about it still leaving the opportunity for it being bad service.

Is that personal experience all it takes for you to increase the chances & not be so dismissive of her claim? If that's what you've seen, why would some of your contemporaries discount your observation as being on par with the person being slighted?

It's a question of who's testimony someone is willing to accept & weigh & comparing that with a person's faith/belief about racism. Again, if it goes against what they want the world to be, they'll use one of these three (or a combo) to justify why they can't agree.

1 - Luck
2 - not enough detail
3 - inconsequential in effect

[akip]

Some chose it because they feel a better connection with that religion, history, or contemporary culture.

this seems very true to me, even as a person in the racial majority. 'cause if you find yourself without a home in the dominant culture, you tend to seek identification, a sense of connectedness, in something with which you do feel an affinity.

[akip]

Is that personal experience all it takes for you to increase the chances & not be so dismissive of her claim? If that's what you've seen, why would some of your contemporaries discount your observation as being on par with the person being slighted?

It's a question of who's testimony someone is willing to accept & weigh & comparing that with a person's faith/belief about racism. Again, if it goes against what they want the world to be, they'll use one of these three (or a combo) to justify why they can't agree.

1 - Luck
2 - not enough detail
3 - inconsequential in effect

i guess i'd have to sit on the jury and get all the testimony. 'cause i feel i don't have enough detail.

[purple_octopus]

my own irrationality, based on personal experience in restaurant work, would lead me to suspect racism. none of the restaurants i worked in wanted black customers. i worked with managers, bartenders and wait staff who would do things like overcharge for drinks at the bar, deliberately make black couples wait for service, gripe about how blacks don't tip well, etc. but i wasn't a fly on the wall at cracker barrel (god, what a miserable existence that would be) so i can't really say what happened there.
I agree with this. For the (thankfully) short time I waited tables, I do recall some of my coworkers bitching about taking tables with black customers. No one did anything like overcharge or anything. But I think that if a server prejudges and believes they will get a crappy tip from black customers, they will probably not give them decent service. Then guess what? They're getting a crappy tip. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I had no problems telling my coworkers that they were prejudiced idiots and I would *love* to take their extra tables when they had black customers. And guess what? I never had a black customer leave a crappy tip. I'm guessing it's because I gave them the same service I gave everyone else -- good service. (I had very few crappy tips in the time I waited tables, all of them from the after church crowd at Sunday brunch.)

But I also agree that I would need more info on the specific Cracker Barrel situation before I went off judging anyone. Just like I'm not willing to pre-judge that a black person will leave a crappy tip, I'm also not willing to pre-judge that a white person working at Cracker Barrel is a racist. I don't know the details.