The not-so-Dreaded "Does God Exist" thread

[Duemellon]

Okay, so, well, here we are...
We'll just delve into this pit o' snakes real quick & see who survives, the God-fearing or the Godless & fearless.

Try to be civil. I'll just wait a moment or so to toss in my arguments against God's existance as described by Biblical text & typical Christian canon.

[monkey neck]

The betting window is open.

I have 2:1 odds that this thread will be 20 pages by sunset
3:1 for 30 pages

Step right up.

[JSpaceman]

I have 2:1 odds that this thread will be 20 pages by sunset
3:1 for 30 pages

Not at this rate it won't.

[candy4140]

Ugh. As much as I always get sucked into this...can't we just all agree, that if there was so much PROOF...then we wouldn't need FAITH?!

It's really simple.

It's faith...people that want to have faith, just need to realize that does NOT make things fact. If it were fact, we would all be able to email it to each other and everyone would agree.

The very fact that this never happens, shows it is NOT proven. Let me life happily as an agnositic..PLEASE.

[Daddy]

The betting window is open.

I have 2:1 odds that this thread will be 20 pages by sunset
3:1 for 30 pages

Step right up.
What's the over/under on how many posts before it's locked?

[drougan]

I think you can tell from my postings in another thread that I do believe there is a god, but I will predicate that statement by saying I dont believe god exists as described in any religious texts to date (that I'm familiar with). I'm a little too exhausted to get into the specifics of this, so lets just say I also feel that the greatest sin mankind has ever commited was allowing itself to believe that god created us "in his own image".

I'm just gonna leave it at that.

[Dumb Hick]

Yes.



.

[monkey neck]

What's the over/under on how many posts before it's locked?

It depends on when Classic Girl arrives on the scene. ;)

[djudge79]

my belief is 'no,' but i think i've got God fatigue from all the religious discussions i've been in lately (here and in the real world), so forgive me if i leave it at a simple 'no.'

[george]

It depends on when Classic Girl arrives on the scene. ;)

What happens if - by sunset - the thread reaches thirty pages, but then Classic Girl deletes all her posts and it goes back to twenty? Does that pay 2.5:1?

[justmaybetiger]

I'm just going to say "No" and walk away...

[berzerker]

Well, the question "does god exist?" is flawed, since it's unknowable. You'd need infinite consciousness to know that. And, there's only one alleged being that has that. Maybe we should ask that person?


As for my own beliefs, yes, I believe there is a God. I believe that Jesus existed, walked the Earth, and died for our sins. Not quite sure how that works exactly, but I'm content to leave it at that for the moment.

I do however believe in evolution, and the scientific facts that show this.

Contradicion? Sure. Try to find something that isn't. Pick a side in any major topic, and I can find someone who can prove you wrong. But, does that solve anything?

[lutz]

The thing that gets me is: some people claim they believe in God because that's the only feasable way (to them) that the world could have been created, but then.. who created God? Has he been there forever, since the beginning of time? When did time begin anyway? Do both the past and the future stretch into infinity?

..and then my head starts hurting.

[Neil]

Contradicion? Sure. Try to find something that isn't. Pick a side in any major topic, and I can find someone who can prove you wrong. But, does that solve anything?

Why is it contradiction? All sects of Catholicism and a few other Christian religions support evolution and have the beliefs you specify. The contradiction only arises if you want to interpret the Bible literally...which many religions don't.

I believe in God. Most of my tenants of faith are closely aligned with the Roman Catholic Church(mostly due to my upbringing I'm sure), but not all of them. Mostly I just believe there had to be a start to it all. God makes sense to me for that. I think he set it up, got the bowl rolling(you know...established the laws of physics and everything) and then let go. His interaction on this plane is limited and probably more subtle than most of us would ever know.

However...I really don't think God "needs" us to worship him or demands it as such...so those who are agnostic, I don't believe have anything to fear. Atheism is only a problem if it's vindictive...in which case you probably aren't an atheist subconciously...but that's a whole other argument.

[REMgirl]

Where in the world does one begin a conversation like this? There are myriad points to make and questions to ask that have no answer. For every person there will be a different idea. Maybe you could make up a questionnaire that would make a structured response. :p

I do not believe in God, a god or many gods. I think the Bible is a lovely piece of literature, filled with moral tales and beautiful poetry, as in the Psalms, but I do not see it as the work of God. It's been written and rewritten, edited and altered so many times over the centuries that it's a story book more than a history book.

It's not my place to say what anyone else chooses to believe is either right or wrong, silly or serious. I just know that I have never felt comfortable praying to a Higher Power. I think what we do, we own. We're not given blessings or curses, nor are people "good" or "evil". We are what we are, we can choose what we do in our lives and pay the consequences. There is no Heaven or Hell. When you die, you are done. There is no karmic circle or reincarnation. Honestly, I have the most boring ideas when it comes to religion!

With discussions of God come discussions of religion; they are inseparable.

[gwar469]

The thing that gets me is: some people claim they believe in God because that's the only feasable way (to them) that the world could have been created, but then.. who created God? Has he been there forever, since the beginning of time? When did time begin anyway? Do both the past and the future stretch into infinity?

..and then my head starts hurting.

holy shit. this looks like exactly the same thing i would have written, complete with the headache comment.

the answer i always got in the good ol' Catholic gradeschool days was that "God just is, and always will be". basically, it was a take-it-or-leave-it answer. if you have the faith to believe that statement, then you believe in God.

i'm leaning more and more towards less of a god-like deity ruling everything, and more towards a mass-consciousness that we all enter into upon death, which likewise feeds guides future beings. kind of like a soul pit. not trying to sound all hippie-ish or anything (cause i'm the farthest thing from that), but it just seems to make the most sense from a balance standpoint (in my mind). then again, i've had lots of crackpot theories.

[Buzzstein]

it's impossible to determine if a god or gods exist or not. Maybe someday we will be able to prove it but I doubt it. I find the idea of blind faith silly though. I think that if there is a god we humans don't have a clue about what it is and what it does and why it does it or even if it really does anything. I think the Bible is a collection of ridiculous (and a few not so ridiculous) ideas and stories that some silly humans wrote down and tried to pass off as fact. I'm a bit skeptical of the whole Jesus thing. I think he was probably just some poor sap who got nailed to a cross.

[lutz]

i'm leaning more and more towards less of a god-like deity ruling everything, and more towards a mass-consciousness that we all enter into upon death, which likewise feeds guides future beings. kind of like a soul pit. not trying to sound all hippie-ish or anything (cause i'm the farthest thing from that), but it just seems to make the most sense from a balance standpoint (in my mind). then again, i've had lots of crackpot theories.Yeah it's ok, I get you - I've played Final Fantasy VII :p
No, seriously.

I just don't buy into the whole God as a big bearded fella thing; it just seems like vanity, an all-powerful deity in our own image. If anything, I believe in a higher power that isn't ethereal - that's all around us and is, in fact, us. I believe in Cause and Consequence and Coincidence. Everything's down to chance.

[gwar469]

Yeah it's ok, I get you - I've played Final Fantasy VII :p
No, seriously.


i was actually angry when i was playing that game and they were explaining that. they stole my friggin' theory!! well, not really. i heard it years ago, and as i got to thinking about it, it made me feel warm and fuzzy inside, so i've stuck with that theory. kind of like everyone's individual feelings about the higher powers.

[justmaybetiger]

i'm leaning more and more towards less of a god-like deity ruling everything, and more towards a mass-consciousness that we all enter into upon death, which likewise feeds guides future beings. kind of like a soul pit. not trying to sound all hippie-ish or anything (cause i'm the farthest thing from that), but it just seems to make the most sense from a balance standpoint (in my mind). then again, i've had lots of crackpot theories.
May the Force be with you!

[berzerker]

...Atheism is only a problem if it's vindictive...in which case you probably aren't an atheist subconciously...but that's a whole other argument.

Same thing with religious zealots. Only a problem if it's vindictive... in which case they probably aren't really getting the point of religion, after all. But that's a whole other argument.



And, back to contradictions, Occam's razor states in Latin:
entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,
which translates to:
entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.

Essentially, all things being equal, that which is most likely, is. Whatever solution has the least number of undefinables is most likely accurate. So, if organized religion requires too much of a leap of faith, it's probably wrong.

But, as we all should know, correlation does not imply causation. Just because it's hard to believe in God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Just because you can't prove it, doesn't mean it's not true.

[candy4140]

But, as we all should know, correlation does not imply causation. Just because it's hard to believe in God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Just because you can't prove it, doesn't mean it's not true.

But it does mean you're standards for believing in something aren't too strict. Which as I see...causes huge problems. Any history book can give you many examples.

If I choose to believe in something just because it makes me feel better, and I overlook the fact that there is no proof (or proof in the form of one book)..well, I think we know where that can lead people.

[wileE]

There may be a supreme being(s), but it/they don't give a rat's ass what goes on down here. If there was a supreme being, why would one little planet in a, as far as we know, infinite universe garner so much attention from an omnipotent being?

[lutz]

But, as we all should know, correlation does not imply causation. Just because it's hard to believe in God doesn't mean he doesn't exist. Just because you can't prove it, doesn't mean it's not true.But just because people believe in it, doesn't mean it is true. I mean, is the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny or even (shield thine eyes children!) Santa Claus real?

This is one of those things that we'll never ever know the real answer to, whether we believe or not. Maybe it's like being able to roll your tongue or not. Maybe faith is genetic.

[berzerker]

But it does mean you're standards for believing in something aren't too strict. Which as I see...causes huge problems. Any history book can give you many examples.

If I choose to believe in something just because it makes me feel better, and I overlook the fact that there is no proof (or proof in the form of one book)..well, I think we know where that can lead people.

Both "Science" and "Religion" are human constructs. And, as I feel that most of us will agree, humans are imperfect beings. So, that leads me to believe that neither science or religion is correct.
Point to something that people have made that has no flaws. Seriously. What single thing that we have created, conceived of, or postulated can be considered by every other person on the planet as without flaws?


People consider the Laws of Physics to be perfect. Which ones? The Newtonian ones, or the Einsteinean* Laws of Relativity? Or what about the ones discovered after that? If the laws of Physics were perfect, why do they keep changing?


*pardon my probable typo...

[PennJillette]

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.

[gwar469]

What single thing that we have created, conceived of, or postulated can be considered by every other person on the planet as without flaws?

ME!! next question. :p

People consider the Laws of Physics to be perfect. Which ones? The Newtonian ones, or the Einsteinean* Laws of Relativity? Or what about the ones discovered after that? If the laws of Physics were perfect, why do they keep changing?

the laws don't change, but the mathematics behind them become more refined to adjust for things not before perceived. on the planet earth, gravity will always pull an object downward, due to centrifugal force. there will always be action/counter-action, as well. these laws will always apply, but how they are exhibited may vary.

[djudge79]

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.
well said. welcome to the boards.

[berzerker]

But just because people believe in it, doesn't mean it is true. I mean, is the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny or even (shield thine eyes children!) Santa Claus real?


Of course they are real.
We've all heard of them, right? They are basically fictional stories handed down over the years that entertain or inform people. They are real in the sense that they were, are, and will be fictional constructs that were created, have evolved, and keep reproducing as such.
Are they real, tangible physical entites? No, and they never really were. But as far as they exist now, they are real.

[george]

Wow! It really is Penn Jillette! (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557)

I love that one trick you do....with that thing...and that guy that doesn't talk. That's cool.

[lutz]

Of course they are real.
We've all heard of them, right? They are basically fictional stories handed down over the years that entertain or inform people. They are real in the sense that they were, are, and will be fictional constructs that were created, have evolved, and keep reproducing as such.
Are they real, tangible physical entites? No, and they never really were. But as far as they exist now, they are real.My definition of "real" is something physically present. I don't care if it means stripping abstracts like "love" and "hate" down to neurotransmissions and chemical imbalances, that's what "real" is to me. God is not real to me.

[dannyboy]

Irrelevant question. Whether or not our existence came about by the will and design of a higher authority or we are just here by happenstance has no bearing on the fact that we are here and have a very impermanent life to live. If one ties their whole value system and/or personal morality to an idea or a belief then they are missing out on the reality of what is and instead living in a made up world of what may be.

[berzerker]

My definition of "real" is something physically present. I don't care if it means stripping abstracts like "love" and "hate" down to neurotransmissions and chemical imbalances, that's what "real" is to me. God is not real to me.

Well, even though it's not a physical thing, I suppose you believe in gravity. It's "present," but as a force, not a physical thing. It's the reaction of several things, which I suppose you could break down to the molecular attraction between oppositely charged atoms...
Or fire. Fire isn't a thing, it's the chemical reaction. It has no real pyhsical presence, but we of course believes it does.


Alright - I'll shut up. This topic can be argued for an eternity (whatever that means...) and we'll most likely never resolve it.

I understand your* point of view - I hope you* understand mine.
I respect your* point of view - I hope you* respect mine.
I welcome discussions of differing points of view - I assume you* do too.

*not singling anyone out - I'm including everyone here.

[monkey neck]

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.

Interesssssting. If you don't belieeeeeeeve in God...then whyyyy do you capitalize the word, "God"? :confused: ;) Hmmmmmmm.

I believe He's there. (Just to warn you, this post is going to be somewhat incoherent...very very tired) Our human minds cannot comprehend many many things even though as a modern "scientific" society, we think we are so smart. I think we're actually outsmarting ourselves. I think of three things: time, space, and consciousness. Those three concepts blow my freakin mind....and science really can't fully explain these things (and many others). I know, it's kind of a weak argument FOR God, but on a personal level I believe God has worked in my life.

And I don't really believe beings as complex as humans descended from a primordial ooze. I don't understand how life springs up out of nothing. Of course, I haven't studied it as much as some of you, so I may be enlightened, but everything I have read and seen on National Geographic and Discovery Channel, etc, really doesn't give a good solid explanation...they all say "it JUST happened". I think evolution is an interesting theory, but I don't buy it.

I believe life itself is miraculous. Anyone who has witnessed the miracle of childbirth knows what I'm talking about. For a "fully functional" baby to grow from 2 cells in 9 months (or less) is mind-blowing. Many miracles happen daily, but it's no big deal....babies are born every day....the sun rises everyday....we wake up in the morning.... and it's boring, so God is pushed out of the equation because it always happens day in and day out. Am I making sense?

(Crazy tangent....)And people with the Darwin emblems on their cars just do it to mock Christians and it's just plain rude. But that's another thread discussion...

[markalot]

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism.


This is from the excellent 'This I Believe' series running on NPR.

[markalot]

I think evolution is an interesting theory, but I don't buy it.


Oh evolution is real, just study plants. But if there is a god, and if he originally designed this place, wouldn't he come up with evolution so he wouldn't have to micro-manage all the details?

[SheepNutz]

I'm just going to say "No" and walk away...

I concur.
10

[justmaybetiger]

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.
Tell it like it is Penn! :p

[DaHood]

I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism. Atheism is not believing in God. Not believing in God is easy -- you can't prove a negative, so there's no work to do. You can't prove that there isn't an elephant inside the trunk of my car. You sure? How about now? Maybe he was just hiding before. Check again. Did I mention that my personal heartfelt definition of the word "elephant" includes mystery, order, goodness, love and a spare tire?

So, anyone with a love for truth outside of herself has to start with no belief in God and then look for evidence of God. She needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural power. All the people I write e-mails to often are still stuck at this searching stage. The atheism part is easy.

But, this "This I Believe" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "This I believe: I believe there is no God."

Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough, but it's everything in the world and everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more. Just the love of my family that raised me and the family I'm raising now is enough that I don't need heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy every day.

Believing there's no God means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That's good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.

Believing there's no God stops me from being solipsistic. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures. Without God, we can agree on reality, and I can keep learning where I'm wrong. We can all keep adjusting, so we can really communicate. I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less. But all obscenity is less insulting than, "How I was brought up and my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just testing us, but rather something we all may be able to help others with in the future. No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future.

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.I love listening to you on the radio. In fact I remember hearing you saying these exact words quite recently.Now, which regular board member are you?

[akip]

if there is, it's beyond comprehension anyway.

[DaHood]

if there is, it's beyond comprehension anyway.
Bingo......

[akip]

and if there is, i seriously doubt it's either as petty or as cognizant as it's made out to be.

[Slar]

Both "Science" and "Religion" are human constructs. And, as I feel that most of us will agree, humans are imperfect beings. So, that leads me to believe that neither science or religion is correct.
Point to something that people have made that has no flaws. Seriously. What single thing that we have created, conceived of, or postulated can be considered by every other person on the planet as without flaws?


People consider the Laws of Physics to be perfect. Which ones? The Newtonian ones, or the Einsteinean* Laws of Relativity? Or what about the ones discovered after that? If the laws of Physics were perfect, why do they keep changing?The big difference is that science is questioned on a regular and challenging basis. If I make a theory in science I have to back it up. Others have to be able to reproduce the results. No one said it has no flaws, but the flaws are sought out and systematically eliminated. What modern physicist today wouldn't love to find a major problem with the theory of relativity? Einstein is so well known because he found a major problem with Newtonian physics. Having recently defended my Master's thesis, I can assure you it's no fun to stand in front of an entire science department and have two years worth of hard work picked to pieces. Science is highly dependent on questioning.

Try questionting something in religion and see if you get the same reaction. Pick apart the Bible and dissect theology and then check it out if the leaders of the major religions thank you for discovering some vital error. Religion thrives on not asking questions. Not questioning God (capitalized so we all know which god we are discussing). Any religious claim can be accepted without close scrutiny or serious thought.

In sum: being skeptical about science theories is seen as a virtue in science, but being skeptical about religion is seen as a sin or heresy.

[Slar]

I believe life itself is miraculous. Anyone who has witnessed the miracle of childbirth knows what I'm talking about. For a "fully functional" baby to grow from 2 cells in 9 months (or less) is mind-blowing. Many miracles happen daily, but it's no big deal....babies are born every day....the sun rises everyday....we wake up in the morning.... and it's boring, so God is pushed out of the equation because it always happens day in and day out. Am I making sense?

(Crazy tangent....)And people with the Darwin emblems on their cars just do it to mock Christians and it's just plain rude. But that's another thread discussion...I wouldn't use the word miracle, but I highly agree that it is mindblowing. Are you trying to argue that the problem with atheists is that they're bored?

I agree about the Darwin emblems,which is one reason I don't have one, but I know some people who have them but aren't atheists. I think some people see them as an 'I believe in evolution' statement, rather than 'I'm trying to insult Christians by defacing a sacred symbol'.

[monkey neck]

I wouldn't use the word miracle,

That's what I'm talking about...nobody thinks it is a miracle because it happens all the time. That's human nature, though, to just blow it off as a hum-drum event because it happens so much...

Not saying atheists are "bored", just saying when something happens so often and regularly, it's taken for granted, I guess...

[Slar]

That's what I'm talking about...nobody thinks it is a miracle because it happens all the time. That's human nature, though, to just blow it off as a hum-drum event because it happens so much...

Not saying atheists are "bored", just saying when something happens so often and regularly, it's taken for granted, I guess...I don't like the word miracle because it intones a supernatural deity. That doesn't mean it's hum-drum and not mind-blowing. I'm certainly not without a sense of wonder and I do try to not take things for granted. I just think there are explanations for all these things that are not spiritual / supernatural.

EDIT: One thing I need to not take for granted is my job. :( Back to work.

[Duemellon]

There are commonalities of the definition of God shared by Western Christian theologies which are suspect.

God is always benevolent
Nothing he does is contrary to this. Any pain or sufferring in the world he had a hand in will have the end result of making your life & the world better.

God is omnipotent & omniscient
God always existed & will always exist. He is aware of everything that went on, is going on, & will go on. He is aware of the results of every possiblity & aware of the resulto of any choice anyone makes.

God is a forgiving & loving god
He has everlasting love & endless forgiveness.

There is no other God
No other cohesive entity has the same power as him. The closest (if the theology believes in one) is the Devil, but he falls short & is therefore infinitely weaker than God due to the fact he has a limitation.

God is the author of everything
God conceived, designed, implemented, & orchestrates everything that ever was, everything that will ever be, & everything that currently is in being. Nothing happens without his action, or him setting up the conditions for it to happen, or him allowing it to happen.

The various logic & intents of the characteristics all have irreconcilable conflicts within themselves & the history recorded in the Bible. The follower of these theologies are told that "God works in mysterious ways" & that we cannot fathom the will of God so to attempt to comprehend it only leads to uncertainty, & aposty.

Simply put,
...if I don't understand "Why" then I'm not interested.
…if when I ask "Why" the answer of: "because & that's why" (AKA: "It just is") is totally unacceptable
…Why would a God who KNOWS that I will not accept such a useless answer not use their ultimate omnipotence & "dumb it down" for me so I can believe & avoid Hell? That's not a loving & caring God.

[JSpaceman]

Good points as I see them, Due.

One of my earliest problems with religion (Christianity, at least) as a child was that to be saved and go to Heaven, you must accept Jesus as your Savior. No exceptions. So if I live my life here on earth and love someone and they are the most loved and important thing in my life, I will no longer be in their company after death unless they, too are saved. Wife, husband, parents, children... unless they're "saved" they will not be with you in eternity. How could this really be Heaven and everlasting happiness?

[mizary]

I would guess this is the most popular argument of all time...

Even more so than pepsi vs coke!

and why isn't there a poll?!

heck a few days ago a few co-workers got into a discussion about what an agnostic was... wiki set us straight though.

Hmmm.... perhaps wikipedia can tell us if God exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

--mizary

[berzerker]

I would guess this is the most popular argument of all time...

Even more so than pepsi vs coke!

and why isn't there a poll?!

heck a few days ago a few co-workers got into a discussion about what an agnostic was... wiki set us straight though.

Hmmm.... perhaps wikipedia can tell us if God exists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

--mizary

Wikipedia is God.

[Slar]

well no

I know i've said this before in other places, but I'll try to make it a bit different this time. Religion(s) and science are both based off of a set of symbols or a language if you will. The symbology of religion(s) (either figurative or literal) are made to define that religion. Likewise the symbology of science is made to define parts of science. For example in Islamic (religous) music there is are a set of rules that act as a symbolic language to symbolize various aspects of the religous path. Likewise, in chemistry there is the periodic table of the elements that is a symbolic language to descripe the elements. Another things that can be defined as a set of symbols are languages themselves. So, like i've said religion(s) and science are both defined by a set of symbols, this is how they are alike. They are different in that the set of symbols is completly different. As in languages such as chinese or english you wouldn't try to define chinese words by looking in an english dictonary. Why then would you try to define religion by looking in a science "dictionary". I guess it would be simpler to say are comparing apples to oranges, but alas I felt like being long-winded.

Additionaly, if religion(s) never questions themselves then why are there so many of them? and why are they continually changing?They may be apples and oranges, but they are still both fruit (fruits of the mind if you will). Whether discussing religion or science, which method of thinking will promote the better fruit? I think that critical thought will produce better fruit because it provides a filtering device to remove ideas that do not work and allow focus on ideas that do work. In other words, my comparison is valid because it contrasts two different ways of examining life, the universe and everything.

Also, when was the last time you heard the Catholic Church question itself? There are many varieties of Chrisitan faiths because the world changed and the Catholic Church did not. They are constantly changing as they try to continue to adapt and stay relevant to a changing world.

[Duemellon]

the biggest thing that made me leave the church is this particular collision of capability & personality traits God is said to have:

God only does good things. God knows everything that did, does, & will happen. God makes it happen, set the rule for it to happen, or had to allow it to happen. God made everyone. God loves everyone.

So, mix them altogether we know that, whether or not you believe in predestination, God knows how you will spend eternity. He knew this before he ever made you. He will know that he made you & you will end up in Hell or Heaven at the end.

I've heard the immediate counter-argument that:
God makes sure that his servants & reality pose the best argument to you as an individual of his existance & that you need to follow his will for salvation. The point of "free will" is that you are given the information he shows & you accept it or don't & chose your own destiny.
My rebuttal is:
God already knew that I wouldn't accept the arguments presented to me. He knew this before he made me. If he really wanted me to follow him he'd have a more powerful argument or simply reach down & give me the proof I'm lacking. If he knows the information he offers will not be sufficient, why did he make me, just to go to Hell? How is that a benevolent, caring, & loving personality?

My mother, as mortal as she was, would never consciously set me up to fail & she loved me with her limited powers & mortal flaws. How could a limitless God set me up to fail with such a painful result?
I still wait for a good answer. Either from God or a human, that is different from the one I settled on already:

The Western interpretation of the Biblical God is a Fraud

[scarface]

Logically, God must exist since (based on the assumption that) all people, even atheists, have the concept of God as "that than which no greater being can be conceived." Logically then, God must exist since if He didn't, there'd be the possibility of a greater being - one that had all the characteristics of God, but also existed in reality, and it is always greater for something to exist in reality than for it to exist in the mind. It would be a logical impossibility for God to not exist, since God is the greatest thing conceivable, and the greatest thing conceivable would by definition exist in reality.

Outline of the Ontological Argument according to St Anselm there. Obviously flawed in many ways, mainly since really you can't define something into existence, no matter how logical it would be for it to exist. That's the A Level Philosophy and Religion standard argument anyway, lol. Personally, I can see how maybe there logically should be a God, but at the end of the day, brains to balls, I just don't feel it. I don't feel like there's anything like that out there. So I go with no, God doesn't exist, and if anything does, it's not necessary for me to worship it or even know about it.

[Slar]

Also Due, as you stated elsewhere God is supposed to be all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good. Were this the case, then evil, pain and suffering would not exist in the world.

If God is all-powerful but not all-good, then that would explain a lot. He recognizes that evil exists and possibly serves a purpose, but chooses not to wipe it from existence.

If God is all-good but not all-powerful, that would explain a lot too. He sees the evil in the universe, but is unable to wipe it from existence.

You may argue that God is also all knowing, and that perhaps the definition of good is well beyond our understanding. If that were the case however, it meets nothing anything even resembling my definition of good, especially when the atrocities committed by humans is seen.

[Duemellon]

You may argue that God is also all knowing, and that perhaps the definition of good is well beyond our understanding. If that were the case however, it meets nothing anything even resembling my definition of good, especially when the atrocities committed by humans is seen.Well, that's the thing. If God really wants me to be saved he'd "dumb it down" & if I was truly incapable of comprehending it then he's omnipotent & capable of "dumbing it down" for us to understand.

Sorry, I give that God a 49% grade on effort.If god is just then he doesnt have to be nice.But the very definition of God is that he is inheirently benevolent & loves everyone. He loves everyone so much he hates when you do wrong & hates those who refuse him.

The gods that are "just" but not benevolent and loving of human life were the older gods of polytheism that were vulnerable to enigmas & tricked by their own shticks.

[Homsar]

I thought we already decided that there's no way to prove it or disprove it so we shouldn't even try.

Well, the newbies have to hear it somehow. I guess.

[shivui]

One of my earliest problems with religion (Christianity, at least) as a child was that to be saved and go to Heaven, you must accept Jesus as your Savior. No exceptions. So if I live my life here on earth and love someone and they are the most loved and important thing in my life, I will no longer be in their company after death unless they, too are saved. Wife, husband, parents, children... unless they're "saved" they will not be with you in eternity. How could this really be Heaven and everlasting happiness?
i still hold this problem, as i was raised catholic. i think it's absolute bullshit.

i don't believe in god because i believe it's completely unneccesary. i've known enough people of enough religions to know that everyone's unique and the religion doesn't make much of a difference. the personalities lend themselves to the religion, much like a drug. people with addictive personalites will seek an addiction. people who need a god figure in their lives with seek a religion/god.

i think everyone should just accept that it's belief and drop the factual possibility.

oh and i'm totally being a ghost. i'm just hoping somebody kills me at a hockey game and in a new(er) arena so i can haunt the place and watch games all the time.

[monkey neck]

oh and i'm totally being a ghost. i'm just hoping somebody kills me at a hockey game and in a new(er) arena so i can haunt the place and watch games all the time.

...until they turn it into something else after 20 years, like an old folks home. Then that would be hell. :p

[Duemellon]

...until they turn it into something else after 20 years, like an old folks home. Then that would be hell. :pno it wouldn't. It's like a single's club with free drinks... just sit in place for a bit u kno u'll have company coming by soon.

[lawdog]

Has anyone brought up Pascal's Wager yet? I had page two in my office pool.

[justmaybetiger]

Has anyone brought up Pascal's Wager yet? I had page two in my office pool.
The main problem with Pascal's wager is "which god?" (There are other problems that render Pascal's Wager illogical too.) There are other religions to consider, such as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism. What if one of these religions is the One True Religion? I know that Christianity says that the Bible is proof that Christianity is the only true religion, and that there is supposed historical evidence of Jesus. But the Koran is "proof" that Islam is the only true religion, and there is even more historical evidence of the existence of Islam's Muhammad than there is of Christianity's Jesus. They can't both be right!

[shivui]

...until they turn it into something else after 20 years, like an old folks home. Then that would be hell. :p
nah, they'll just topple it after the use is gone. then i'll haunt the future parking garage.

[The Mad Hater]

belief in God defies reason. so maybe I'm mentally ill or just shallow, and I don't have answers. if anything I have just as many questions as Duemellon, maybe more.

the universe and my existence don't make sense to me- whether I believe in God or not. how can you deny that God exists, yet readily accept that the universe is infinite? could you explain infinity to me any better than I could explain God?

so anyway, my answer is yes. and I don't know why. sometimes I feel it, and sometimes I think I imagine what I'm feeling. sometimes I wish I could stop believing, and then sometimes I see the sunset, or my wife's blue eyes, or the pure majesty of the ocean and I'm right back where I started.

[akip]

i always think of god as some universal energy that encompasses order and chaos, meaning and random chance, creation, life and death...so i guess that makes me something of a heathen.

[akip]

It seems that the nature of the christian god is too convoluted by silly definitions. I think that because of all the flaws in Christianity it has been and will continue to loose any kind of organized power in the world.

i think the flaws are what people relate to and gravitate toward---the clubbiness and quibbling. they seem to have a harder time with the bigger concepts like forgiving your enemies and not coveting your neighbor's wife. ;)

[The Mad Hater]

i think the flaws are what people relate to and gravitate toward---the clubbiness and quibbling. they seem to have a harder time with the bigger concepts like forgiving your enemies and not coveting your neighbor's wife. ;)

when you say "they", you mean Christians? this is all human nature, Christian or not.

[akip]

when you say "they", you mean Christians? this is all human nature, Christian or not.

exactly.000

[Duemellon]

belief in God defies reason. so maybe I'm mentally ill or just shallow, and I don't have answers.Well, that's the thing. It's about belief.

Belief is the condition of assumption predicating all conversation or further information. It's the bias of a bad hypothesis, it's the lust before love at 1st sight, it's the thing that 1st says: "It is so!" & then everything afterwards that supports it is recognized & all that is contrary are taken out as:

1) Miracles or a chance fluke
2) Incomprehensible genius or the unknown detail
3) Unimportant to what's important

Therefore nothing can move that belief other than the believer.

U'kno? Like, why is God the 3rd shade of ultraviolet?
1) He's that powerful
2) Don't know why but it makes sense to him
3) Does it really matter?

v. Why is water wet?
1) Water is composed of 3 elements that make it a liquid at the ambient temperature of the Earth. It was made of H2O instead of P2O for some reason, but it's mostly just how we named it & how the universe's laws decided to work
2) Water's ability to saturate is well documented & the sensation of "wet" is assumed to be a reaction to saturation, although that hasn't been directly & objectively studied.
3) It's wet. U don't need me to tell u that, check urself.

[The Mad Hater]

3) It's wet. U don't need me to tell u that, check urself.

so, then, I could argue that God doesn't exist. and I could argue that he does. either way, I prove nothing. and again and again and again.

welcome back.

[Duemellon]

so, then, I could argue that God doesn't exist. and I could argue that he does. either way, I prove nothing. and again and again and again.

welcome back.If I told you that you were wrong it would make no dent on your belief unless I presented some information completely ripping the very bedrock of your belief system away. Just the same as me. You could present so many things about beauty & wonder but it just won't penetrate my bedrock either.

However, in this situation, the bedrock is our will to believe. I'd have to break your will.

...so...

Come over around 6pm on Mon. Quit your job & sell ur life insurance & bring over the mouth-ball facemask thing like Ving Rhames had when Zed was riding him like a rented mule. I'd ask you to sign a waiver 1st, but I'll wait until after the "training" & u can sign it retroactively....deal?

oh, another important thing... how long can you hold your breath in optimal situations? thanks for the welcome back

[DaHood]

hehe, your a sick little puppy
Ladies and gentlemen, witness irony.

:p

[Buzzstein]

i always think of god as some universal energy that encompasses order and chaos, meaning and random chance, creation, life and death...so i guess that makes me something of a heathen.

If I believed in a "God" it would be like that.

[The Mad Hater]

If I told you that you were wrong it would make no dent on your belief unless I presented some information completely ripping the very bedrock of your belief system away. Just the same as me. You could present so many things about beauty & wonder but it just won't penetrate my bedrock either.

However, in this situation, the bedrock is our will to believe. I'd have to break your will.

...so...

Come over around 6pm on Mon. Quit your job & sell ur life insurance & bring over the mouth-ball facemask thing like Ving Rhames had when Zed was riding him like a rented mule. I'd ask you to sign a waiver 1st, but I'll wait until after the "training" & u can sign it retroactively....deal?

oh, another important thing... how long can you hold your breath in optimal situations?

if I navigated that verbal density correctly, then it looks like you wish to rape me in order to break me from my belief in God.

this only reinforces my beliefs in the end. after you release me from your "care", I'll walk home awkwardly, and when I get there and I feel safe again I'll chuckle because only a hellbound heathen would do what you just did to me.

then I'll think about calling you. you know, to see if you might want to get together again, maybe next weekend?

[akip]

Islam and Judaism have a better concept of God than Christianity. Both of which are western, (at least in my mind).



i think people who were raised christian are just more familiar with christian bullshit than with the bullshit in other religions. i'm not crazy about the "one path and that's through christ" aspect. seems to be an over-reaction against judaism in order to define itself as distinct and "right."

since judaism's somewhat familiar, i could say that i think the tribal/territorial obsession's the flaw in that one.

dunno enough about islam to criticize or praise it. seems to me i heard the tyrannization of women is more a spin on it than intrinsic to it. but i could be wrong.

[1979]

My rebuttal is:
God already [i]knew that I wouldn't accept the arguments presented to me. He knew this before he made me. If he really wanted me to follow him he'd have a more powerful argument or simply reach down & give me the proof I'm lacking. If he knows the information he offers will not be sufficient, why did he make me, just to go to Hell? How is that a benevolent, caring, & loving personality?


I guess the next question would then be, do you know that you will never accept the arguments presented to you?

[Sushi]

The main problem with Pascal's wager is "which god?" (There are other problems that render Pascal's Wager illogical too.) There are other religions to consider, such as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism. What if one of these religions is the One True Religion? I know that Christianity says that the Bible is proof that Christianity is the only true religion, and that there is supposed historical evidence of Jesus. But the Koran is "proof" that Islam is the only true religion, and there is even more historical evidence of the existence of Islam's Muhammad than there is of Christianity's Jesus. They can't both be right!
Actually, the Koran looks at Jesus as a prophet and is pretty nice to Mary as well (although that could just be a marketing ploy...).

They're all "right" in that they all provide a human being with a way of communing with the divine. People are different so people have created different paths to the same place.

i think people who were raised christian are just more familiar with christian bullshit than with the bullshit in other religions.
Hear hear.

The following essay made me think of all the God-related threads we've had lately.

Published on Saturday, June 10, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
If Ann Coulter's a Christian, I'll Be Damned
by Tony Norman

Now that its original meaning has been hopelessly distorted by hatred and bad vibes, the term "Christian" really should be banished to the hall of linguistic abominations where it belongs.

Say "Christian" in mixed company and the image of a bejeweled evangelist hawking a right-wing social agenda will come immediately to mind.

Very few think of Christians as the same folks who embraced lepers and other social outcasts even before faith-based tax credits kicked in to provide "incentives" for doing the Lord's work.

Once upon a time, being called a Christian was an invitation to participate in one's own beheading. When Christians weren't worshipping in catacombs or refusing to bend a knee to the emperor, they were turning up their noses at every form of social control.

Christians were once anarchists who believed in a kingdom that transcended the petty ambitions of politicians and assorted antichrists.

A mere three centuries after the Galilean Jew who got the ball rolling was strapped to a gurney and executed, Emperor Constantine "legitimized" the wild-eyed cult of peace by turning it into the mascot of imperial power it has remained ever since.

Over the centuries, the term "Christian" has become identified with piety and economic striving for its own sake. Lost in the scramble for respectability is a sense of indignation at the machinations of empire.

Never mind the example set by the itinerant rabbi Christians claim to follow. Not too many of them seem to notice the religious wars, pogroms, inquisitions and rationales for chattel slavery that occur whenever hands clasped firmly in prayer also clutch the reins of temporal power.

In a country that flatters itself with the sobriquet "Christian nation," the majority of American "Christians" support the death penalty without experiencing a second of cognitive dissonance.

A disturbing number of Christians can't get past the book of Leviticus without gathering rocks to stone every stray "sodomite" crossing their path.

Alas, the Jesus that reigns over America takes delight in schemes to expel illegal aliens from the land.

Because her blond mane and feral eyes give her an uncanny resemblance to all four horses of the Apocalypse, the American Jesus has a soft spot for Ann Coulter, despite her hateful shtick.

In her latest best-selling tirade "Godless: The Church of Liberalism," Ms. Coulter demonstrates why she's a "Christian" and her political opponents are the spawn of Satan.

In "Godless," a book that proves there is often truth in advertising as far as titles are concerned, Ms. Coulter proves her love for humanity by questioning the motives of the widows who successfully lobbied for the creation of the 9/11 Commission.

When she's through with her shoddy hit-piece that includes speculation about whether the widows' husbands were planning to divorce them before al-Qaida spared them a visit to divorce court, you can't help but feel you're in the presence of something supernaturally despicable.

No one slings mud imported straight from the Stygian depths quite like Ms. Coulter, a McCarthyite-smear artist who loves generating revulsion across the political spectrum every time she has a book to flog.

Her exaggerations, hackery, lies and bad faith are dutifully pointed out by critics every time she hits the book circuit, but the insincerity of her Christian profession is rarely commented upon. This has always bothered me.

Recently, I realized that Ann Coulter's gall in calling herself a "Christian" isn't any of my business. The problem is my own stupidity in identifying myself as a "Christian" when the word is devoid of its original meaning and has even come to stand for its metaphysical opposite.

I continue to believe in the things I've always believed about the faith, but I can't be a Christian in a world where Ann Coulter can call herself a Christian without fear of contradiction.

I'm open to suggestions about a new spiritual handle since I've already removed "Christian" from my lexicon of spiritual name-dropping.

I wouldn't mind being called a Jew of some sort, but I don't think those good people will have me. Since they're only 3 percent of the population, you'd think a brother could catch a break. Alas, I bring too much baggage to the table.

[REMgirl]

And to no one's surprise, the minister of the church where Coulter claims to be a member says he never sees her there. :confused:

[frizgolf]

And to no one's surprise, the minister of the church where Coulter claims to be a member says he never sees her there. :confused:
Oh, he's there, all right. The minister's looking for the 'woman' from the TV screen.

[justmaybetiger]

Actually, the Koran looks at Jesus as a prophet and is pretty nice to Mary as well (although that could just be a marketing ploy...).

They're all "right" in that they all provide a human being with a way of communing with the divine. People are different so people have created different paths to the same place.
It is impossible to follow the practice of Christianity and be saved by Allah. It is impossible to follow the practice of Islam and be saved by God, the two religions exclude each other. You realize that there are more Gods to believe in than just Yahweh and Allah? What if the Sikhs were right all along? Pascal's wager doesn't help, it only asks another question.

[jps]

why "he"?
god is dead, and we killed him...

Sorry I couldn't resist.

I think the question is better stated "...is god relevant?" You're either going to work during your life to be a good, honest person or you are not. Because for the most part there are 2 common interpretations of god. One says that god is the ultimate judge of everything and our fate will be determined on judgement day no matter what we do. The other says that god is benevelont and loving and wants us to be the best people that we can be and through our actions here in this life we can earn our salvation. So things have been put in motion and our fate has been determined, so it doesn't really matter what we do or say, just that you accept god/jesus/allah as the almighty. Or be the best person you can be and your actions be your judge. In the end if I live a life that is honest and authentic I may be rewarded or I may not, so it doesn't really matter.

I was once told that my place in line at judgement day could be in between hitler and stalin and I would go to hell just like them if it god had determined that already and it didn't matter what my actions as a human being were. I said thanks and asked him to leave, because if it didn't matter I didn't want to be bothered. Just some thoughts... I'm really tired right now.

[PeterABnny]

I personally believe that there is indeed a God. I'll spare you details, but suffice it so say that events have happened in my life such that leaves no doubt. The creveat is that I've found he's not the guy organized religion makes him out to be. All-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, all-etc. & etc... Nah. For me, he's more human than religious leaders would like to admit - prone to pettiness, indifference, or even uncaring. As Tori Amos suggests, sometimes he don't come through...

[Phreon]

I believe there's something out there, but freely admit there is no way to prove his/her/it's existence. Huh, isn't that the whole point of "Faith"?

Actually, I think the Pentabarf is at least as relevant as anything in the Bible.


Fnord,

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[monkey neck]

I personally believe that there is indeed a God. I'll spare you details, but suffice it so say that events have happened in my life such that leaves no doubt.

Share with us, if you don't mind (if you're comfortable sharing). I'm curious...or nosy, whichever you prefer :) .

[weeone]

god is your belief.

[weeone]

riiiight, now pass the bong, woman :p
I'm smoking bowling balls.

[DaHood]

The bong is God.



And it's filled with Buddha....

[Phreon]

The bong is God.



And it's filled with Buddha....


Now I'm confused. I can't wrap my head around the implications for bong water.


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