The Fight for X-Mas

[djudge79]

Does this annoy anyone else? I have nothing wrong with religion in general or Xtianity in particular, but there's an element of the religious right that I can't stand. It's the select few who are bullies with a paranoid personality disorder that believes the whole country is unfair and out to get them. Please say I'm not the only one who thinks this is ridiculous:

Conservative groups prep for Christmas battles
It's weeks before Thanksgiving but already interest groups are preparing for an intense year of conflict over Christmas observances by cities and public schools, with one conservative group lining up hundreds of attorneys to work on the issue.

Communities and courts have long fielded protests against municipal creche displays and school Nativity pageants, based on strict views of church-state separation and sensitivity toward religious minorities.

In recent years, however, local disputes have extended — to carol singing, wordless instrumental music, Christmas trees and decorations, classroom visits by Santa Claus, distribution of Christmas-themed cards and gifts, "Merry Christmas!" greetings and designation of Christmas on official calendars.

This week, the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal group based in Scottsdale, Ariz., announced that its 800 cooperating attorneys have volunteered to handle without fee complaints about "improper attempts to censor the celebration of Christmas in schools and on public property."

In 2004, the second year of its "Christmas Project," affiliated attorneys sent a detailed memo on ADF's view of Christmas and constitutional law to 7,000 school districts. The 2005 effort, already under way, adds city officials.

A similar information campaign is being waged by Liberty Counsel, another Christian legal group based in Orlando, Fla., and the Christian Educators Association International, representing 8,000 public school teachers.

The topic also is the subject of a polemic by the Fox News Channel's John Gibson that is selling briskly: "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought."

Gibson, who calls himself a "non-practicing Christian," notes that his Jewish son researched the book. He says agitation against Christmas observance comes primarily from "secularists, so-called humanists, trial lawyers, cultural relativists and liberal, guilt-wracked Christians."

The American Civil Liberties Union is targeted in another new book, "The ACLU vs. America: Exposing the Agenda to Redefine Moral Values" by ADF's Alan Sears and Craig Osten. The ACLU doesn't initiate all the complaints and lawsuits, the authors say, but it created the environment for widespread anti-Christmas efforts.

Even as Christmas is suppressed, these writers complain, schools sometimes encourage Ramadan, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa observances.

ACLU religion director Jeremy Gunn was in meetings and unavailable, a spokeswoman said. But an official ACLU bulletin says the Constitution forbids school observances "that promote or emphasize the religious significance" of Christmas, but not aspects "that have become part of our country's secular culture." The ACLU has repeatedly fought displays with religious themes on public property.

Under Freedom Forum First Amendment Center sponsorship, the ACLU has come to agreement with evangelical and other religious groups on minimal rules about school religious issues. On holidays, the accord says schools may celebrate secular aspects and "objectively teach about their religious aspects" but not observe them as religious events.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State also endorsed the accord.

Spokesman Rob Boston said "about 95 percent of the whining from the far right" over Christmas is for fundraising purposes. "They're trying to get people worked up so they will think Christmas is being removed from public life," Boston said. "There isn't any evidence that's happening."

Americans United believes "public schools aren't the appropriate place to celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. That's a job for the home and the church," he said. The Supreme Court's rule that towns' Nativity displays must add secular symbols proves that if people "want a truly religious experience, city hall is not the place," Boston added.

Michael Johnson of Shreveport, La., an ADF staff lawyer, says his group merely wants to "defend the rights of the 96 percent of Americans who celebrate Christmas" and is not trying to evangelize. He thinks ACLU's goal is "ultimately to silence people of faith, and in many cases people of the Christian faith."

The Rev. Charles Nestor, an Assemblies of God minister in Lakeland, Fla., supports the legal fight. But his Web site also promotes "Operation Nativity", urging Christians to "flood the country" with Nativity displays at their homes, churches and businesses.

[Slar]

800 cooperating attorneys have volunteered to handle without fee complaints about "improper attempts to censor the celebration of Christmas in schools and on public property."

Well, it was either that or spend all day posting in the "There's nothing better to do" thread.

[Handy Smurf]

I think those opposed to the celebration of Xmas as a religious holiday are hate filled morons with a bad ego trip and a chip on their shoulder. Xmas wouldnt exist in the first place without the Xian tie-in, so either don't celebrate it at all or STF up about it. I could see an argument that government employees shouldnt be off work, I dont agree with it, but I at least think its a legitimate point for debate. Let the schools put on the damn plays and quit focusing your existence on trying to make shit as miserable for everyone else as it it for you.

[Slar]

I think those opposed to the celebration of Xmas as a religious holiday are hate filled morons with a bad ego trip and a chip on their shoulder.Yeah, that sounds like me alright. How about this: You celebrate Christmas at home and keep it out of the public square and I'll have no objection to it at all.

Xmas wouldnt exist in the first place without the Xian tie-in, so either don't celebrate it at all or STF up about it.Wrong. (http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm)

I could see an argument that government employees shouldnt be off work, I dont agree with it, but I at least think its a legitimate point for debate.Who's seriously pushing for that? It's not even a point in the article.

Let the schools put on the damn plays and quit focusing your existence on trying to make shit as miserable for everyone else as it it for you.That's a damn funny quote coming from someone even slightly religious. I'm all about the 'leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" philosophy, but by putting it in the schools it becomes you making life miserable for everyone else. Do you really think it's okay to celebrate one religion in a public forum to the exclusion of all others?

[purple_octopus]

That's a damn funny quote coming from someone even slightly religious. I'm all about the 'leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" philosophy, but by putting it in the schools it becomes you making life miserable for everyone else. Do you really think it's okay to celebrate one religion in a public forum to the exclusion of all others?
I don't even think Christmas is religious anymore. One of several reasons why I choose not to celebrate it in the typical consumerist fashion. (Although I would be inclined to say that I don't think religiously overtoned plays should be put on in a school funded with taxpayer dollars, unless it was part of some world culture and religion educational activity.)

[BigSugar]

"Christ"mas wouldn't be celebrated, and December 25th wouldn't today be a national holiday without the christian reformation of a formerly pagan day of celebration. how hard is that to figure out.

maybe there'd be a "Winter Solstice Day" or a "Worship the Golden Calf" day, but "Christmas" it wouldn't be. So, Slar, eat your shoe. LOL!

Suck my "Happy Holiday". if you want to celebrate the yearly commemoration of the birth of Jesus, then by all means do so. If you don't want to, then don't. But going out of your way to ruin it for everyone else is just plain dumb. Next thing you know, you mutherfuckers will be trying to take my "Peeps" off the shelves b/c Jesus really wasn't killed/risen in the month of April. You take my fluffy sugar treats shaped like bunnies and i start whipping ass.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!

[purple_octopus]

Suck my "Happy Holiday". if you want to celebrate the yearly commemoration of the birth of Jesus, then by all means do so. If you don't want to, then don't. But going out of your way to ruin it for everyone else is just plain dumb. Next thing you know, you mutherfuckers will be trying to take my "Peeps" off the shelves b/c Jesus really wasn't killed/risen in the month of April. You take my fluffy sugar treats shaped like bunnies and i start whipping ass.
Maybe if Christmas had Cadbury eggs, there wouldn't be all of these panties in a bunch.

[teribl sob stry]

Maybe if Christmas had Cadbury eggs, there wouldn't be all of these panties in a bunch.

maybe if more panties had ruffles, they wouldn't be so easily bunched. :confused:

[purple_octopus]

maybe if more panties had ruffles, they wouldn't be so easily bunched. :confused:
I think we're onto something here.

Ruffled Panties + Cadbury Eggs = Christmas Saved!

[markalot]

That's a damn funny quote coming from someone even slightly religious. I'm all about the 'leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" philosophy, but by putting it in the schools it becomes you making life miserable for everyone else. Do you really think it's okay to celebrate one religion in a public forum to the exclusion of all others?

That's funny, I don't remember reading anything about exclusion.

[monkey neck]

Welcome to America, where we celebrate Christmas. For only the last 400 years or so.

[ms. chevious]

i believe that the first settlers (puritans they were) refused to celebrate christmas precisely b/c they shunned its materialist trappings. now, if only i could remember where i read this...

[Slar]

That's funny, I don't remember reading anything about exclusion.You're right. Telling me to shut the fuck up about Christmas because I'm not a Christian is not exclusion at all.

[tempo]

Yes, I agree that religious expression should not be censored by the gummit.

But let me ask everyone here who celebrates Christmas:

Have you ever, EVER, been forced to curtail your Xmas observances by a government authority? Anyone? Has the school principle ever told you to stop saying Merry Christmas? Has a cop ever written you a ticket for your nativity scene?

I mean really, is this a significant problem? I'm willing to entertain the possibility, but give me a few anecdotes to go on...

[djudge79]

this isn't Rome 100 AD. it blows my mind that there are people out there who genuinely believe that Xtians are being persecuted in this country today. this is a country that is approximately 80% Xtian, for God's sake. just because institutional representatives of our government (i.e. schools) are taking the separation between church and state thing a bit more literally nowadays and there's a move to be more politically correct and inclusive about religion doesn't mean a damn thing, but some people make it out like we're one step away from throwing Xtians to the lions. i mean, jesus christ folks.

[markalot]

You're right. Telling me to shut the fuck up about Christmas because I'm not a Christian is not exclusion at all.

Slar,

Are you one of those people who like to ram accusations of ramming things down your throat down others throat? You follow? Are you one of those people who are looking to be offended? Are you one of those people who make fun of religion by showing off a christian fish with Darwin written in it? Are you a hater?

[Dirk]

Slar,

Are you one of those people who like to ram accusations of ramming things down your throat down others throat? You follow? Are you one of those people who are looking to be offended? Are you one of those people who make fun of religion by showing off a christian fish with Darwin written in it? Are you a hater?
Actually, that's me with the Darwin fish (and a satan fish to boot!)

As far as christmas, I think it can be in schools as soon as we start celebrating hanukkah and other non-christian holidays in schools. I find it funny that people scream when someone says christian holidays shouldn't be in schools, but the moment another religion gets mentioned, they scream even louder. Just because most people celebrate a religious holiday doesn't mean it's okay to force everyone to celebrate it (and yes, having christmas in school basically forces children to celebrate it). I just find it amazing that halloween (a truly non-religous oliday in it's current form) is being banned by the same people who want to keep christmas (which is still a religious holiday, although less some that it was) in schools.

[Slar]

Slar,

Are you one of those people who like to ram accusations of ramming things down your throat down others throat? You follow? Are you one of those people who are looking to be offended? Are you one of those people who make fun of religion by showing off a christian fish with Darwin written in it? Are you a hater?Not a hater. Just want to be left alone.

Just want to be able to have my kid go to school without the pressure of having to say "Under God".

Just want to be able to watch a speech from my president where he does not appeal to a higher power.

Just want to be able to spend a dollar without having "In God We Trust" shoved in my face.

Just want to be able go to my court house without having religion promoted through nativity scenes or displays of the Ten Commandments.

I'll support your right to install a 42 foot Jesus and cross along the highway. I'll support your right to sing Christmas carols and "Praise Jesus" all over the radio.
I'll support your right to write "John 3:16" on every billboard between here and Topeka.

But there is never a need to have my tax dollars support any one religion or another, and there is never a need to have the opinions of others shoved down my kids throat.

I'll be honest though. When I hear about 800 lawyers trying to put their personal beliefs in a public setting in an inappropriate manner it does tend to piss me off.

[Homsar]

Ruffled Panties + Cadbury Eggs = Christmas Saved!

FOR SOOTH!!!
PO, you're my new hero.
WileE, you are nothing to me.

[markalot]

What's the difference between promotion and celebration?

[markalot]

Actually, that's me with the Darwin fish (and a satan fish to boot!)



Actually, I was thinking of La.. Lar... remember him? No satan fish or bobblehead jesus.

[jneale]

Loveland had a massive nativity scene when I was a kid - I have no idea what they were made of - but the looked like marble - must have been 30+ pieces to the set - it was actually beautiful.

I don't come from a particularly religious family - but we did go to church - & we'd always make a point to drive past City Hall to see it when ever we'd go out - espeically if there had a been a snow - the thought of it still reminds me of Christmas.

The set was sold because of the Church/State issue.

[tempo]

Loveland had a massive nativity scene when I was a kid - I have no idea what they were made of - but the looked like marble - must have been 30+ pieces to the set - it was actually beautiful.

I don't come from a particularly religious family - but we did go to church - & we'd always make a point to drive past City Hall to see it when ever we'd go out - espeically if there had a been a snow - the thought of it still reminds me of Christmas.

The set was sold because of the Church/State issue.

Did the buyer continue the tradition of displaying it? (Just curious.)

[DaHood]

(and yes, having christmas in school basically forces children to celebrate it
I remember when I was a kid we had a few Jehovah's Witness students. They didn't say the pledge of allegience and they didn't celebrate Christmas. We would do what we did and they would sit out momentarily then it was on to regular school business as usual.

One of these students was a very good friend of mine throughout my grade school years. I asked her about this and that, whatever as it pertained to her religion and she was never offended, I was never offended. I didn't come from a church going family but Christmas was always an important holiday.

What I'd like to know is why the hell all this is such a big deal? A few haters want to cause problems where none exist. That's the way I see it. Big fucking deal if there's a nativity scene in public. Big fucking deal if Christmas is celebrated in a public school.

The problem is that there are too many people who are too easily offended anymore.

[jneale]

Did the buyer continue the tradition of displaying it? (Just curious.)

It wasn't sold off as a set - it was split. A local church had the manger - but all the other pieces were sold separate. I was a wee lad when it was sold - I have no idea where it all went - just remember it was a huge topic in town & everyone was upset about it.

Looking back I wonder why no one tried to preserve it.

[Slar]

What's the difference between promotion and celebration?When you enjoy christmas at home it's celebration. When you force put it in the public square it's promotion.

You are libertarian right? How come I'm having to debate this with you? Since when is it an appropriate use of government power to put up a nativity scene? How does a government entity "celebrate" anything?

Sorry if I'm coming off all negative in this thread, but Handy's post kind of set me off. We've hung out and I think he's a nice guy and I'm under the impression that he thinks the same of me. I just thought was he said was kind of harsh and I wanted to put a face on it. It's not just some random "them", it's people you know.

DaHood, I'm glad you and your classmates were willing to accept others for who they are and what they believe. That's no guarantee though, that things will be the same for my daughter. I don't think anyone here needs reminded that kids can be really cruel. If you have activities were people have to be excluded, then you're asking for trouble.

[jneale]

When I grew up - we prayed in the classroom – I remember one kid who’s parents wouldn’t allow him to pray – the teachers always made a point to the rest of the class that he “didn’t have to because his parent’s didn’t “believe.” (and yea I went to public school)

It was completely wrong, even in the second grade I knew it was wrong.

I know the root of the holiday centers around religion – but if we’re honest about it Christian’s just slapped different labels on all the pagan holidays.

I’m OK with diluting the event; I just hate it when Santa gets the boot.

[Slar]

I’m OK with diluting the event; I just hate it when Santa gets the boot.I concur. I like the holidays as much as anybody, but I just don't like some of the relig... well, I mean I suppose there are some people who like the holidays more than I do. I can't say I'm too crazy about some of the same songs again and again, year after year. And those plastic santas and snowmen in peoples yards kind of bug me. Ok, so I like the holidays as much as some people, but I've never been much for hanging lights and putting up all kinds of over-the-top decorations. That's really a lot of hard work just to take it down again the next month. Also, it does seem to be more and more commercial each year. Even I think it should be more than just throwing money around at each other.

Okay, so most people enjoy the holidays more than I do. That's not so bad is it? It really just boils down to a change in seasons after all. But on top of all that, I could do without a lot of the religious aspects of the whole thing.

I probably still like the holidays better than Yvet7ica. And maybe Agate.

[markalot]

When you enjoy christmas at home it's celebration. When you force put it in the public square it's promotion.

You are libertarian right? How come I'm having to debate this with you? Since when is it an appropriate use of government power to put up a nativity scene? How does a government entity "celebrate" anything?


I am not purely libertarian, and I am not religious. (not that the two are related)

I see a nativity scene as celebration. If they exclude other scenes then I'm not ok with it, but just having one does not push my button. I don't see it as promotion or use of government power. As a matter of fact, I blame the crowd who does and yells about it for the fundamentalist backlash we are seeing in this country right now.

This country was founded with religion in mind, ALL religions. I'm not sure at what point that started to mean NO religion. Half full, half empty? It seems to me that you can take the separation of church and state to either mean the sate must me strive to be inclusive of all religions, or exclude all. I would rather see people arguing to get more displayed, not less.

And then there are the atheists. Not just a non believer like me, but a fundamentalist non believer who thinks any display of anything is offensive. I find that offensive.

[Slar]

It seems to me that you can take the separation of church and state to either mean the sate must me strive to be inclusive of all religions, or exclude all. I would rather see people arguing to get more displayed, not less.It means the state should stay neutral and not put up displays of their own. If you want to allow anyone and every one to put up their own thing, I'm amenable to that. BUT, then you also have to allow groups like the KKK to have their own say as well. AND, based on the main article there, I don't think those people are donating their time and efforts for the type of displays you are describing.

[Handy Smurf]

Yeah, that sounds like me alright. How about this: You celebrate Christmas at home and keep it out of the public square and I'll have no objection to it at all. I wasnt directing my comments at you, Slar. There are plenty of people out there who would prefer to see Xmas eliminated altogether

Wrong. (http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm) I guess I mistyped. I meant that Xmas would not exist as a holiday in this country w/o the Xian tie-in, and thats the doubletruth Ruth. I am aware that there are pagan origins for practically every Xian holiday

Who's seriously pushing for that? It's not even a point in the article. I brought that up because it is a point often raised by those who oppose the holiday. There have been plenty of lawsuit attempts over the years and many people who would love to see the government stop recognizing the holiday altogether and removing it as a day off of work for banks, post offices, etc.

That's a damn funny quote coming from someone even slightly religious. I'm all about the 'leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" philosophy, but by putting it in the schools it becomes you making life miserable for everyone else. Do you really think it's okay to celebrate one religion in a public forum to the exclusion of all others?
I wouldnt care if a school wanted to put on a Kwanzaa pageant or have a Ramadan singalong. I never said I wanted to exclude anything. I think people are too sensitive and intolerant. I went to HS with quite a few kids who werent Catholic- Protestant, atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, etc. I doubt that they liked all of the Catholic celebration at the school, but they were respectful about it. In turn everyone was respectful about their respective faiths.

[REMgirl]

"And then there are the atheists. Not just a non believer like me, but a fundamentalist non believer who thinks any display of anything is offensive. I find that offensive."

I guess that you mean the extreme version of atheism, which, like other fundamentalists, is over-the-top. I'm an atheist, coming to that conclusion rather late in my life. I was raised in a Presbyterian household and attended church until I was in my thirties. Truth be told, I never felt like I belonged in church and didn't believe in the Bible. I don't believe in God or an omniscient being who orchestrates our lives or created humans from dirt.

I have no problem with a church displaying whatever ecoutrements they choose to, on their own property. As much as I despise that 42 ft monstrosity of Sinking Jesus on 75, it's on the church's property and they can worship it as often as they choose. Synagogues can have menorrahs, Buddhist temples can have Fat Jolly Buddha sitting out front. Not a problem!

However, I don't want the Ten Commandments engraved on my Courthouse, I don't want my children to be forced to say a prayer in school, and I don't want Intelligent Design introduced to my kid in science class. That's where religion is inappropriate. Religious beliefs can be celebrated to any extent within one's place of worship and one's home. The rest of the time, take your beliefs and keep them to yourself.

As far as Christmas goes, I think it can be celebrated on whatever level you want to. Personally, it's about families getting together and modest gifts being exchanged and gratitude that we're all safe and happy. I observe some religious practices, ie going to Christmas Eve service, but I do that as a gift to my mom. Hypocritical? Sure, but I love my mom and this makes her happy.

People are much less tolerant than they used to be, or at least they are more vocal about it.

[seafoamgreen]

Mmm. fruitcake, christmas trees and this debate again. I'm officially in the Christmas spirit.

Let me say this, both sides of this arguement are freaking stupid.(not the board arguement, the general arguement). I'm an athiest, and a rather belligerent one at that, but i've got no problem with celebrating Christmas on state property, as long as anyone else who wishes to be included is included. So bring on the festivus signs. As for school, if done correctly, it can be a nice way to learn about other cultures and religions; it just takes a little effort.

Although what drives me nuts is when certain christian groups start complaining about private companies that use the term Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas.

At what point exactly did this whole thing run off the rails? Crazies are crazies on either side.

[Handy Smurf]

Although what drives me nuts is when certain christian groups start complaining about private companies that use the term Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas.

Amen to that, although on the flipside, our company makes a point of sending out Xmas cards that say "Merry Xmas" and not "Happy Holidays." But hell, its their right to do whatver they want in that regard.

[george]

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral, celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all... and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2006, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great (not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only "America" in the western hemisphere), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee.

(By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.)

[purple_octopus]

Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low stress, non-addictive, gender neutral, celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasions and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all... and a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2006, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great (not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country or is the only "America" in the western hemisphere), and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith, choice of computer platform, or sexual preference of the wishee.

(By accepting this greeting, you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for her/himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law, and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year, or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.)
I think I found my Christmas cards for the year. Thanks George. ;)

[johnathonroach]

It's so funny what we as Christians waste our time on. We seem like a bunch of angry people holding up picket signs trying to get get a government to take our side. Meanwhile people are starving and cold and without hope. Open your eyes Christian. This is not what we are here for. This government gives us the right to worship as we please. That right/privelege is not appreciated anymore. When will we grow up and stop expecting the government to declare who's god has the biggest one... and start showing the world some freakin love and repect.

Try reading the Koran or studying Bhudism or get to know an Aetheist.
(the Bible says to "study to show thyself approved..." this is not just about reading your Bible!)

Government is not here to preach your/our Bible

I think this is what Jesus would say.

I hope I really messed up somebody's mind.

[Smoker29]

It's all about the underdog. If the majority is getting their way, there is always a minority group that is feeling slighted and has to change things. It's human nature with anything.

[loveydovey]

(Although I would be inclined to say that I don't think religiously overtoned plays should be put on in a school funded with taxpayer dollars, unless it was part of some world culture and religion educational activity.)

I think this is the most appropriate way to address religious issues in schools - as education. If we are going to talk about Christmas, let's also learn about Hannukah (sp?,) the Winter Solstice, Kwanzaa, Diwali, etc etc. It's always better to open up communication than to hush up all talk about sensitive topics such as religion.

[miami2112]

keep religious "celebrations" out of my public schools.

a weeklong lesson in schools about various religious winter "services" would be ok, but c'mon, as if that would really happen.

schools and governments do not need to have any religious symbol on their lawn. but its not that big of a deal for me to bother myself and "protest" someone who does. guess i'm just lazy.

that being said, i just realized the xmas tree on the white house lawn... hmmmm, dont think that going away anytime soon.

but i just hate the thought of someone cramming their views/religion down my throat

[loveydovey]

keep religious "celebrations" out of my public schools.

a weeklong lesson in schools about various religious winter "services" would be ok, but c'mon, as if that would really happen.


It happened in the public elementary I went to. We had a series of "holiday parties" where we "celebrated" a different holiday each day. We did Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, and I believe Chinese New Year. It wasn't perfect - there are many other holidays we could have covered, and I'm sure the local parents would have thrown a fit if we had learned about pagan Winter Solstice activities. Still, it was a way for kids to get their holiday fix while keeping things educational and making us aware that Christmas wasn't the *only* celebration going on.

[markalot]

but i just hate the thought of someone cramming their views/religion down my throat

If this is related to the article, fine, if not then why do you feel that way. Restricting the celebration of something is also cramming ideas, isn't it? I don;t agree that we should ban government sponsored celebration because some frings group can celebrate too. We are giving into the least common denominator. If people would just fucking ignore the KKK they would go away.

[miami2112]

not in relation to the article, just how i feel in general. in fact, i hate overzealous ppl forcing whatever they think into my head.

[djudge79]

It's so funny what we as Christians waste our time on. We seem like a bunch of angry people holding up picket signs trying to get get a government to take our side. Meanwhile people are starving and cold and without hope. Open your eyes Christian. This is not what we are here for. This government gives us the right to worship as we please. That right/privelege is not appreciated anymore. When will we grow up and stop expecting the government to declare who's god has the biggest one... and start showing the world some freakin love and repect.

Try reading the Koran or studying Bhudism or get to know an Aetheist.
(the Bible says to "study to show thyself approved..." this is not just about reading your Bible!)

Government is not here to preach your/our Bible

I think this is what Jesus would say.

I hope I really messed up somebody's mind.
this is the best thing posted on this thread yet. i'm an atheist with little use for religion personally, but i have a lot of respect for mature religiousness. that's what the above is.

[the_birds]

I was raised a Christian and these verses always ring true for me in these situations. Jesus specifically refers to the typical "Christian Conservative" (aka hypocrites) in the Sermon on the Mount. For the uninitiated, he is telling his followers HOW to be a Christian in this sermon. Basically, he says being a good Christian is between you and God and don't make a big deal about it, especially not publically. He even promises a punishment. So, while its okay to celebrate Xmas, and to decorate, I don't think Jesus would have approved of a fuss being made over it, ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

Matthew 6

Do Good to Please God
1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.

The Model Prayer
5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8"Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9In this manner, therefore, pray:


Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.


14"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

[jefrey]

"
However, I don't want the Ten Commandments engraved on my Courthouse, I don't want my children to be forced to say a prayer in school, and I don't want Intelligent Design introduced to my kid in science class. That's where religion is inappropriate. Religious beliefs can be celebrated to any extent within one's place of worship and one's home. The rest of the time, take your beliefs and keep them to yourself.

People are much less tolerant than they used to be, or at least they are more vocal about it.

Well WTF here it goes, I tend to agree with you here. I am a X-tian, which to be honest I've been reluctant to say on these boards because of some people's opionions. I concider myself politcally liberal minded. I cannot stand the religious right that has been slowly but surely taking over this country. The republican party has cashed in on the fears of it's people, gainging ground to further their purposes. The early settlers of this country fled because of religous persecution and to establish a separated church and state. Having said that, it would be hypocritical to say that one's personal beliefs wouldn't have an effect on how they governed. The difference is tollerance towards others and their beliefs. That is what used to make this country great, tolerance! I'd like to know where it says that you have to be a republican to be a christian or that you have to hate/discriminate against homosexuals or be rich to be a christian? Christmas pageants and singing carols in school was a right of passage growing up. Having said that, science class was no place for discussing religion. Let the science classes teach science and religion classes teach religion but, let the kids put on their plays! No one here or anywhere else could argue that teaching religious based theories in science would prove or disprove the existance in God and visa-versa that teaching science disproves God. It's a mute point. Where does it stop?

I read part of Jimmy Carter's new book at Borders the other night. I thought he made some very poignant statements about this country and where it's going.
Here's a review...

In Our Endangered Values, Carter offers a personal consideration of "moral values" as they relate to the important issues of the day. He puts forward a passionate defense of separation of church and state, and a strong warning of where the country is heading as the lines between politics and rigid religious fundamentalism are blurred.

Now, he describes his own involvement and reactions to some disturbing societal trends that have taken place during the last few years. These changes involve both the religious and the political worlds as they have increasingly become intertwined, and include some of the most crucial and controversial issues of the day -- frequently encapsulated under "moral values."

Many of these matters are under fierce debate. They include preemptive war, women's rights, terrorism, civil liberties, homosexuality, abortion, the death penalty, science and religion, environmental degradation, nuclear arsenals, America's global image, fundamentalism, and the melding of religion and politics.

[jefrey]

......................

[fadedbluejeans]

i love egg nog. not really, but a day off work is a day off work... SOOOOOOOO let's go drinking and/or be with friends (if you can stand them) and/or family (if you can stand them) and/or be alone.
we can drink at a dennys -- i hear them restaurants is pagans!
or we can listen to religious music, non-religous music while drinking a soda
or we can have sex "make love" all day unless it started to hurt
or we can attempt to conquer the world b/c everyone else is in church!

i think i'm going to come back to cincinnati for MAYBE one or two days, and have a beer, play video games, eat a lot, wish i was watching a ball or multiple balls drop in new york city, and ultimately NOT WORKING. did i mention i love work and people telling me what to do and what to think! it gives us reason to argue and wish they'd give me hanukkah, kwanza, winter solstace, new years day, passover, all of lent, easter, AND any other (non)religious holiday off. i think dec 25th-jan 3rd is a long enough break for most people and the fact that xmas and new years are (about) a week apart makes it a nice vacationing day. now who wants a cruise ticket?

[Slar]

If you're buying, I'm your friend. Don't much care what you believe at that point.

Ok... so I end up making a trip over Ameristop for some beer because of that darn party source thread. I'm standing there, making the choice selection waaay to hard and I notice this lady to my right is trying to get my attention. She's smiling, and darn if I can remember what she said exactly, but it was something or another about Jesus.

Well, I thanked her politely and went to check out. She ends up right behind me in line, so I chat about the weather while we're waiting. She finishes the conversation by saying that "God will get us through this winter somehow."

So, MaL, I hope that answers your earlier question. She said her thing and didn't push it, so I didn't push it either. You walk away and I'll walk away.

[markalot]

Good job Slar. :D