riots in Paris

[justa bill]

why haven't I heard about this in the 'normal' news? i saw it on Metafilter instead...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/31/news/france.php (story)

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/vi/0,47-0@2-3224,54-705553@51-704172,0.html (video)

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/vi/0,47-0@2-3224,54-705553@51-704172,0.html (more story)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4375910.stm (i knew there were tensions in France, but i had no idea it had turned so ugly...)

there are other stories about all of this, but a lot of them are in French... go figure. but actually it doesn't seem to be isolated to Paris, and it seems to have been going on for a while... :(

[markalot]

Because this exposes the falicy that europe, and France in particular, is better than us. How could this happen in such a progressive country?

Oh and by the way, did you hear that Germany had an election in which two aweful candidates ran and they tied? Amazing shit.

This flame was not directed at you. :D

[twentyshots]

Because this exposes the falicy that europe, and France in particular, is better than us. How could this happen in such a progressive country?

:D

you say that liberals have knee jerk reactions, but mention France and you know who will appear everytime in a cloud of brimstone.

i think it probably has more to do with the media's indifference to this story when there are about a billion things going on here at home, and more specifically in D.C.

[crank-e]

What happens in Paris, stays in Paris. :o

If this had started over a football match, espn and FOX would be eating it up.

[markalot]

you say that liberals have knee jerk reactions, but mention France and you know who will appear everytime in a cloud of brimstone.

i think it probably has more to do with the media's indifference to this story when there are about a billion things going on here at home, and more specifically in D.C.

Saying liberals have knee jerk reactions in no way indicates that conservatives, moderates, or I don't. I'm having knee spasms at this very moment.

[crank-e]

Something else you don't hear about:

"Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life.

Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched..."

[justa bill]

Something else you don't hear about:

"Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life.

Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched..."

yeah, thanks for the info. actually, i saw that link too... :rolleyes:

and, about six months ago, there was a thread about tensions like this in Europe, and i described how, if not for two well-timed ticket officers in a rail station, my friend and i were about to be beaten and robbed on the south side of London.

it's not the first time that i've 'learned' that everything in Europe isn't all wine and roses. along with a lot of really amazing places in England and on the continent, i've been in the "ghettos" of Copenhagen (there by the center train station--they're gone now), Mile End (http://www.mlp.cz/space/opatrilp/Pulp/Mile_End.song.html) in London-town, the "north African slums" of Rome, and St. Petersburg, Russia...

...which is basically one big, rusting slum of a slum of a ghetto of a wrong-side-of-the-tracks. to be fair that was ten years ago, but i've read that it's not "all better" even now.

but the fact that there are ongoing racial/religious riots in the city of Paris, and no one in America is really talking about it... that's wierd.

kinda wierd.

[markalot]

On CNN now:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/01/france.riots.ap/index.html

[yoshomon]

I don't think these are 'racial riots'. The police aren't being attacked because they're white... they're being attacked because they're police.

[justa bill]

On CNN now:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/01/france.riots.ap/index.html


and from that: In Clichy-sous-Bois, the head of the Paris mosque, Dalil Boubakeur, visiting Muslim leaders there, was forced to leave abruptly after his car was pelted with stones, LCI reported. A tear gas grenade that landed in the mosque Sunday fed anger. It was unclear who fired the tear gas.

it's pretty clear these are racially-based tensions. but racially-based tensions that are agrivated by unemployment, lack of opportunity, lack of integration (on both sides). there was a program on PBS about this back in the spring... it focused on Marseilles where the problems had seemed to be the most pronounced.

i'm just amazed that during the hour i had the crappy morning 'news' on this morning there was absolutely no mention of this... :confused: i flipped through a number of different stations too. ???

today is the first time i've seen it on the NYTimes and that was as a sidebar article. ???

i still think it's weird that the American media has paid no attention to this... i'm not some over-the-top fan of our President or anything, but my guess is the media isn't talking about it because there's no way to blame it on ol' Bushy... :p

[crank-e]

yeah, thanks for the info. actually, i saw that link too... :rolleyes:

it's not the first time that i've 'learned' that everything in Europe isn't all wine and roses.

Yeah, thanks for the info. Actually, I've been to Europe, too. :rolleyes:

Some people, myself incuded, like a little nudge of spoon fed info to get their interest piqued. Burning cop cars as as one example.

[monkey neck]

They just didn't want to be outdone by Toledo.

[justa bill]

They just didn't want to be outdone by Toledo.

60 Minutes did a story on the guy that basically started all of that sh!t in Toledo... did anyone see that? whoa. the whole thing was pretty much all set off by some messed-up, paranoid, loser that kept calling the police and videotaping it everytime black kids walked down his street...

some neo-nazi group heard about it and set up a march to go through the area... ridiculous. :[

[akip]

Saying liberals have knee jerk reactions in no way indicates that conservatives, moderates, or I don't. I'm having knee spasms at this very moment.

:D

let's just say that the french have their own problems and we have ours.

[yoshomon]

I think 'our problems' are the same as 'theirs'.

Let's see.. poverty, racism, bullshit 'education', and violent police... hmm, yeah that all sounds familiar.

[Jumpman]

I'm never surprised when international news of seeming importance isn't reported here. It's a legacy of our self isolation throughout the early 20th century, and our more current isolation on the level of individuals while our government has been highly interventionist elsewhere. Nothing new really, we basically have no idea what goes on elsewhere, unless we go out and find it.

[akip]

I think 'our problems' are the same as 'theirs'.

Let's see.. poverty, racism, bullshit 'education', and violent police... hmm, yeah that all sounds familiar.

you're not much of a grey-zone guy either, are you? :p

[BigSugar]

I think 'our problems' are the same as 'theirs'.

Let's see.. poverty, racism, bullshit 'education', and violent criminals... hmm, yeah that all sounds familiar.

fixed that for ya. i know you weren't going to exhonerate the criminals from the problems. 'cause everyone knows that if the criminals were hugged more as children, they wouldn't commit crimes or kill people. right? LOL!

[justa bill]

I'm never surprised when international news of seeming importance isn't reported here. It's a legacy of our self isolation throughout the early 20th century, and our more current isolation on the level of individuals while our government has been highly interventionist elsewhere. Nothing new really, we basically have no idea what goes on elsewhere, unless we go out and find it.

see, i am surprised. i'm not surprised that Katie Kurrick and people like that aren't talking about it, but... i listen to an hell-of-a-lot of NPR, and they're not even talking about it. (i haven't listened to any today though, so maybe they are... :o )

anyway... i don't think we're terribly isolated from world news. i've heard all about Germany's new Chancelor (sp?), and attacks on southern-Russian cities...

but, ya know, America's relationship with the Muslim world is kind of an issue right now, and the fact that a Western country is having open conflict within thier borders is kind of relavant to our well being too...

'Experts' have been saying that Europe will be the primary battleground for Al Quaideia-ia in the coming years. and if France doesn't get its act together, it sounds like the little weasles taht convince 18-year-olds to strap bombs to their bodies may have a lot of willing volunteers. that's no good for anyone.

people rail on America for not having Iraq 100% buttoned-down. France better hope it gets France buttoned-down. :[

[Jumpman]

I think statements like mine are somewhat relative. I know alot of people from other places in the world (alot of europeans) and most agree that the level of international coverage in this country is frustrating. I think there is some truth to that. I think that some of it comes from our geography. We are a very large country, and we are located quite far from alot of world events. Contrast this with Europe where people have a vested interest in knowing what the hell is going on elsewhere around them. There is a larger chance that they are less than an hours drive or less from an international border. The countries are smaller too. I'm not saying that international news doesn't go totally unreported, but that sometimes it's shallow in depth, highly selective, and above all, in the case of the majority of the media, motivated by profit which creates its own bias. Just some thoughts.

[justa bill]

...Just some thoughts.

yeah, i totally agree that for someone in the U.S. to get a greater amount of international news they have to go beyond 'network' news. but the lack of coverage on this one is still so freaking wierd to me. i finally heard a short story about it on WVXU's BBC headlines tonight, but still... ?

and then there's this... today is a horrible anniversary: "I know for sure that you, O America, are going to meet with disaster. I know for sure that you, O Europe, are going to meet with disaster. I know for sure that you, O Holland, are going to meet with disaster." (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/11/24/vangogh/)

[REMgirl]

This is small consolation, but the one of the local news stations here in Dayton had a brief blurb on the riots outside Paris on their early broadcast this evening. So somebody knows about it, it just isn't a story that people here will care about.

Don't forget, we had the "French haters" squawking about Freedom Fries and boycotting wine from France. It's just SOP to care about what's happening in our backyards, not elsewhere. It's not right, but it's what happens.

[weeone]

If you think there are no protests or riots or people setting themselves on fire in Paris, then don't go there. Otherwise, enjoy.

[akip]

looks like on cnn and the washington post, the paris story is following just beneath the major headlines of libby/rove, alito and bird flu and one or two other new developments.

in the nyt, it's definitely farther back. that is interesting.

[back2vinyl]

First story I've seen on Yahoo:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051103/ts_nm/france_riots_dc

Based on France's past performance, I would recommend to the rioters that they march on Paris and demand an unconditional surrender by the French Army.

[weeone]

see, i am surprised. i'm not surprised that Katie Kurrick and people like that aren't talking about it, but... i listen to an hell-of-a-lot of NPR, and they're not even talking about it. (i haven't listened to any today though, so maybe they are... :o )



they were talking about it the morning before yesterday on npr around 10 or 11 am

[GISRICK]

The problem with international news coverage near the first Tuesday in Nov. is the upcoming elections. Large chunks of news are "eaten" up by election coverage and all the scandals surfacing because of elections. This leaves little time for international news.

[justa bill]

Channel 9 and ABC News finally had something on about it today at lunch. it was a pretty in depth piece.

i still find it troubling that it take a full week oF rioting in the capital of a major European country before the 'network news' deams it worthy of mentioning. -oh well-

[akip]

there's been more coverage of charles & camilla's trip to the usa.

[george]

They just didn't want to be outdone by Toledo.

The French are very familiar with neo-Nazis

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901040726-664981,00.html

[weeone]

The French are very familiar with neo-Nazis

http://www.time.com/time/europe/magazine/article/0,13005,901040726-664981,00.html
the Republic's fundamental virtues are not equipped to deal with a growing society of immigrants. It's going to get ugly :( I did some research into the Muslim population in France for some of my degree work, and it's pretty frightening what's happening. Meanwhile all J.C. did as of Tuesday morning was make a call for respect for the police force. That's his way of dealing with the rioting. At least, that's what I heard a coupla days ago from the npr blurb. I am the last person to trash France, but feh. French policy needs a tweakin.

[euro60]

I don't know why, but this is the absolute first I hear about it. Admittedly I've been busy and out of circulation somewhat although I did read a newspaper yesterday and there was nothing in it. (No, it was not the pathetic Cincinnati Enquirer--there's a different story altogether.)

Anyway, weeone makes a good point (as usual) about the frightning increase in Muslims, not just in France, but in many European countries. The same thing in Belgium (where I know the situation a bit better). What scares me is that the majority of these people make absolutely NO effort to integrate themselves into the mainstream society. When that happens, you're asking for trouble.

I don't wish trouble on anyone, but I'm not in the least surprised about these riots, and in fact I predict more of that will happen in Europe in the years to come :(

[weeone]

I don't know why, but this is the absolute first I hear about it. Admittedly I've been busy and out of circulation somewhat although I did read a newspaper yesterday and there was nothing in it. (No, it was not the pathetic Cincinnati Enquirer--there's a different story altogether.)

Anyway, weeone makes a good point (as usual) about the frightning increase in Muslims, not just in France, but in many European countries. The same thing in Belgium (where I know the situation a bit better). What scares me is that the majority of these people make absolutely NO effort to integrate themselves into the mainstream society. When that happens, you're asking for trouble.

I don't wish trouble on anyone, but I'm not in the least surprised about these riots, and in fact I predict more of that will happen in Europe in the years to come :(

I don't want to get married to the idea that an increasing Muslim population in W Europe is frightening ... rather the W European values of assimilation are what scare me. We as Americans have been all immigrants all the time for 200 years, and we're still having trouble integrating. It's been an extremely recent social change that has given full citizen rights to all of our citizens. W Europe is going to see the same struggles with this immigrant surge :( Like they did in the past ...

History: hate, kill, rebuild, repeat.

[george]

Anyway, weeone makes a good point (as usual) about the frightning increase in Muslims, not just in France, but in many European countries. The same thing in Belgium (where I know the situation a bit better). What scares me is that the majority of these people make absolutely NO effort to integrate themselves into the mainstream society. When that happens, you're asking for trouble.


As weeone points out above, part of the problem is that the society doesn't show a lot of willingness to allow newcomers to become part of the society.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4399748.stm

[euro60]

I don't want to get married to the idea that an increasing Muslim population in W Europe is frightening ... rather the W European values of assimilation are what scare me. We as Americans have been all immigrants all the time for 200 years, and we're still having trouble integrating. It's been an extremely recent social change that has given full citizen rights to all of our citizens. W Europe is going to see the same stuggles :( Like they did in the past ...

History: hate, kill, rebuild, repeat.
I expressed myself poorly. What frightens Europeans is the lack of interest or desire on the part of many Muslims to want to integrate into a Western society, which is, after all, what Western Europe is. That, together with the increase in numbers, and you arrive at scenes as in Paris. Anyway, it's sad to see.

[weeone]

I expressed myself poorly. What frightens Europeans is the lack of interest or desire on the part of many Muslims to want to integrate into a Western society, which is, after all, what Western Europe is. That, together with the increase in numbers, and you arrive at scenes as in Paris. Anyway, it's sad to see.
Yes, I think I knew what you meant. We have the same kind of situation here with generational Americans and newcomers - there's resistance on both sides.

[euro60]

As weeone points out above, part of the problem is that the society doesn't show a lot of willingness to allow newcomers to become part of the society.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4399748.stm
This can easily turn into "the chicken or egg" debate. Is it the Muslims that are not wanting to integrate or society that doesn't allow/want them to integrate? I don't pretend to know all the answers, but it reminds me of the Nike slogan: Just do it!

[DaHood]

History: hate, kill, rebuild, repeat.
You should put that on the back of a shampoo bottle. :p

[george]

This can easily turn into "the chicken or egg" debate. Is it the Muslims that are not wanting to integrate or society that doesn't allow/want them to integrate? I don't pretend to know all the answers, but it reminds me of the Nike slogan: Just do it!

I'm sure that both sides hold some culpability. However, anti-semitism has been a problem in France for a long time, and it's victims are of French descent. Also, the French go out of their way to keep the "French" culture pure (by banning English words like "e-mail" (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/printthread.php?t=3903&pp=50)). Their disdain for things that are not French is also very vocal (Jacques Chirac commenting that "you can't trust people who cook as badly as the English").

One of the interesting stats in the BBC article is that college graduates of North African descent (these are French citizens, just not of French ancestry) is 27% - which is three times the total unemployment rate.

I'm not trying to imply that it is all one side's fault, but I think there is a widespread reluctance among the native French population (and the government) to allow assimilation to happen.

[yoshomon]

Anyway, weeone makes a good point (as usual) about the frightning increase in Muslims, not just in France, but in many European countries. The same thing in Belgium (where I know the situation a bit better). What scares me is that the majority of these people make absolutely NO effort to integrate themselves into the mainstream society. When that happens, you're asking for trouble.

Racist anti-immigrant bullshit.

[Shlep]

I'm so disappointed. There are so many jokes about rioters terrorizing the French by throwing soap at them and accidental baths from water cannons just waiting to be made, and so far, not a single one...

[GISRICK]

there's been more coverage of charles & camilla's trip to the usa.
Agreed...but what for?

[euro60]

I'm so disappointed. There are so many jokes about rioters terrorizing the French by throwing soap at them and accidental baths from water cannons just waiting to be made, and so far, not a single one...
I wonder if you are aware that racism, in fact, does exist? :p

[weeone]

I'm sure that both sides hold some culpability. However, anti-semitism has been a problem in France for a long time, and it's victims are of French descent. Also, the French go out of their way to keep the "French" culture pure (by banning English words like "e-mail" (http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/printthread.php?t=3903&pp=50)). Their disdain for things that are not French is also very vocal (Jacques Chirac commenting that "you can't trust people who cook as badly as the English").

One of the interesting stats in the BBC article is that college graduates of North African descent (these are French citizens, just not of French ancestry) is 27% - which is three times the total unemployment rate.

I'm not trying to imply that it is all one side's fault, but I think there is a widespread reluctance among the native French population (and the government) to allow assimilation to happen.

whoa whoa whoa cowboy

The French wanting to conserve their language in official level documentation is not a form of racism or anti-integration. And have you ever had English cooking ? Plus, it might help you to know remember that there is long standing abrasion between the English and the French, and that JC was merely being playful with this little jab. The English are about as playfully (debatably) in regard to the French. Except the English go for the jugular. Also, note that one of the principles the Republic was founded on in the 18th century is assimilation. To expect the French to view assimilation as a societal flaw is like asking Americans to change the Constitution. And exactly what are you getting at regarding the BBC stat regarding North African decent French citizens ? That immigrants are responsible for the unemployment rate ? Why don't you look into stats about who is unemployed.

[george]

whoa whoa whoa cowboy


My point is that there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the French don't like things that are not uniquely and traditionally "French" and that this may extend to people within their own society.

The only reason that the ban on "e-mail" is limited to official documents is that the government doesn't have the authority to ban it in the private sector, although they did try about five years ago. Also, the fact that they have a governmental department dedicated to keeping the language pure shows how much they want to keep their culture pure (language being a part of culture and all) and untainted by "foreign" influences.

The anecdote about Chirac and English food is just an example of how the French view other cultures. Is it true that English food is horrible? Absolutely. But the fact that the President has no problem saying so to other world leaders at a public event shows how ingrained is the distaste for foreign things.

This notion of cultural superiority, combined with the fact that they take official steps to protect the purity of that culture, hint at why they may not want those of non-French descent to become full partners in their culture.

As for the unemployment stat -- my point is that these people are educated and, largely, French. These aren't uneducated immigrants just off the boat. The fact that they have such an incredibly high unemployment rate buttresses the opinions expressed in the article - namely, that it is difficult for those of Arab or African descent to get a job due largely to outright discrimination.

[markalot]

The french suck, and it has nothing to do with Iraq. They've sucked for a long long time.

[yoshomon]

Nationalism is stupid.

[weeone]

As for the unemployment stat -- my point is that these people are educated and, largely, French. These aren't uneducated immigrants just off the boat. The fact that they have such an incredibly high unemployment rate buttresses the opinions expressed in the article - namely, that it is difficult for those of Arab or African descent to get a job due largely to outright discrimination.

don't get your assless chaps in a bundle. I agree with you for the most part. I just thought that post was a smidge on the ignorant side. You are correct about the discrimination, absolutely. My friends in Paris talk about the guy down the street where they run into get their bread as the "arab" down the street. Not the guy, the arab. And when I told one of my dearest friends in the universe, who is French and lives in Paris, that I wanted to do a research project on racism and discrimination in French culture, he was shocked to think that I saw it as an issue. I could go on, but I have a phone call on hold.

[DaHood]

Racist anti-immigrant bullshit.
Immigrants suck. Immigration was only good when my ancestors came to this country. The rest of them can all go to hell. :p

[akip]

let me get this straight---we're giving the french a hard time for not solving their immigration problems in a couple of decades when we haven't been able to solve our race problems in a couple hundred years?

you've gotta be kidding.

[weeone]

let me get this straight---we're giving the french a hard time for not solving their immigration problems in a couple of decades when we haven't been able to solve our race problems in a couple hundred years?

you've gotta be kidding.
Amen, yo.

swum sayin

[justa bill]

let me get this straight---we're giving the french a hard time for not solving their immigration problems in a couple of decades when we haven't been able to solve our race problems in a couple hundred years?

you've gotta be kidding.

actually... slavery in the 'new world' is very much related to the European colonialism that France, England, Germany, et. al. are dealing with only now. France still 'owned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire#Extent_of_the_French_coloni al_empires) ' large parts of the African continent when our young men were dying to free France in World War I and World War II. Almost 60,000 of our young men were killed in a colonial-conflict that France dragged us into: Vietnam.

the point is America voluntarily gave up slavery 150 years ago and has been dealing with the aftermath ever since. there have certainly been starts and stops to the efficacy of America's attempts to address social disparities in our country, but whether it's the Turks in Germany, the Pakistanis in England or the North Africans in France, Europe is just now dealing with the dark aftermath of it's centuries of colonialism.

what's happening in France has the potential to go beyond being an issue of 'social justice' and quickly become an all out cultural/religious war. what scares me is that while Iraq is pretty ugly right now, imagine what happens if the bullshit happening in France right now spreads beyond France and beyond Europe. what could we be dragged into this time.

i'm not a republican, but i am proud of the fact that an African-American woman represents our country to the rest of the world. yeah, there are poor black people in America still. there are plenty of poor white people too. the greater injustice is the number of poor Native people in America. Injustice is about the only thing every country has in common, but name another country that has done as much for its poor than America.

i hope France could some day have a foreign minister of African-decent... but i won't hold my breath for it.

[george]

let me get this straight---we're giving the french a hard time for not solving their immigration problems in a couple of decades when we haven't been able to solve our race problems in a couple hundred years?

you've gotta be kidding.

Who's "we"?

[akip]

Who's "we"?

we the people.

[george]

we the people.

I'm still confused.

Did the U.S. government come out and say something about the riots?

Or, are you saying that, since America hasn't solved it's race problems, no American is allowed to comment on the immigration problems of another nation?

[akip]

I'm still confused.

Did the U.S. government come out and say something about the riots?

Or, are you saying that, since America hasn't solved it's race problems, no American is allowed to comment on the immigration problems of another nation?

we can comment all we want, but we ought to stay neutral in tone, remembering that our own home turf is hardly nirvana. the integration of disparate peoples is hardly a new problem, either in u.s. history, european history, or in the history of the world.

and i'm talking about the anti-french, pro-america noise you hear from the usual flag-wavers among us (both here specifically and out there in medialand). it's so predictable. the french ain't perfect and neither are we.

[markalot]

we can comment all we want, but we ought to stay neutral in tone, remembering that our own home turf is hardly nirvana. the integration of disparate peoples is hardly a new problem, either in u.s. history, european history, or in the history of the world.

and i'm talking about the anti-french, pro-america noise you hear from the usual flag-wavers among us (both here specifically and out there in medialand). it's so predictable. the french ain't perfect and neither are we.

But I would argue that while we still have race problems, our problems are very minor compared to the problems with religious and racial bias in europe. We take our progress for granted. I would say France, in paticular, is where we were in the 40's or 50's. Or worse, since they have laws forbidding certain forms of religious expression or cultural dress.

[akip]

But I would argue that while we still have race problems, our problems are very minor compared to the problems with religious and racial bias in europe. We take our progress for granted. I would say France, in paticular, is where we were in the 40's or 50's. Or worse, since they have laws forbidding certain forms of religious expression or cultural dress.

oh no! the dreaded racism thread again!!! help, get me outta here!!!

if i comment on any of this, the ghost of duemellon will haunt me. :p

[weeone]

Or worse, since they have laws forbidding certain forms of religious expression or cultural dress.
In the public milieu. One is free to express themselves religiously or otherwise outside of government institutions - school, healthcare, etc, is all picked up by the government for French citizens. The law is that all ostentatious forms of religious identification remain outside governmental domains: crucifixes, yarmikuhs (sp), veils, etc. In the public domain, nothing is forbidden as far as religious expression is concerned. The idea is that in government institutions everyone be viewed or seen as equal - assimilating into the same French standards. Americans are appalled by this, sure. But that's French culture, just like it's Islamic culture in many countries to cover women from head to toe, and the resistance to let go of cultural tradition on all sides is the cause of the tension.

[euro60]

Wow.. I last posted on this yesterday afternoon. You might think that by now all these problems would've been solved, but no, apparently not. ;)

[akip]

one thing's happened since yesterday. it's on the headlined news (cnn-tv and npr morning edition).

[weeone]

QUICKVOTE
How should French officials handle the continuing violence in Paris suburbs?


Impose Curfew
Deploy Troops
Withdraw Police


Vote

So obviously this is an American poll. Nowhere in here is there a suggestion to look at policy change to address the real issue at hand: poverty in the immigrant majority suburbs and the resulting drug trafficking and violence. Sending in police to cede drug trafficking, the sole income/livelihood for many people, with little financial assistance in the wake of the drug seizures clearly only exacerbates the violence problems. The government must step in and improve the living conditions of the immigrants they are accepting.

[markalot]

Americans are appalled by this, sure. But that's French culture, just like it's Islamic culture in many countries to cover women from head to toe, and the resistance to let go of cultural tradition on all sides is the cause of the tension.

Of course I'm appalled. It means that you have to think about what to wear if you want to visit 'your' government. So do you think this fosters an attitude of inclusion or exclusion? The french are fucking stupid, always have been always will be. It's no suprise that this strife starts in France first.

ouch, there goes my trick knee again...

[weeone]

Of course I'm appalled. It means that you have to think about what to wear if you want to visit 'your' government. So do you think this fosters an attitude of inclusion or exclusion? The french are fucking stupid, always have been always will be. It's no suprise that this strife starts in France first.

ouch, there goes my trick knee again...
Well, there's no swaying you, Mr Rational. :)

[markalot]

I wonder if any organization is behind this riot?

I thought France was the friend of peace, against the Iraq war, all that? If we can attach Britains terror attacks to their cooperation in the Iraqi war then what can we make of this? Perhaps the kinds of people who riot are too stupid to add 1 + 1?

Why don't they just arrest / kill all these rioters? Useless people anyway. Oh the poor impoverished immigrants who for some reason moved to France, then had kids, and now this? What did they move away from? Why are they so poor? Where are the jobs?

I thought France had this awesome social safety net, what happened to these people? Where is the net? Someone run out of money?

And the meek shall inherit the earth ... unless you kill them first.

Am I actually feeling sorry for France here?

[justa bill]

I wonder if any organization is behind this riot?

I kind of doubt there was any organization at the beginning of it, but you can bet there are all kinds of 'extreamist' groups trying to take advantage of it now... and i'm sure there is a, at least loosely, organized attempt to fuel the violence and spread it around France and even around Europe.

Back at the beginning of the summer i had a 'ten years ago today' thread. i stopped updating it after the London attacks because reading about the fun i had with my EuroRail pass seemed a little gross when so many people had just been killed...

But that year, 1995, in Paris, all of the trashcans throughout the city were removed or had lids screwed over the tops of them. I can still remember some English kid walking by... "why's all the bins got lids screwed over 'em?"

it was because militants in Frances former colonies were placing bombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Islamist_terror_bombings_in_France) around France. There was one that was discovered on the train tracks from Barcelona to Lyons that didn't go off. I learned about that from a train station T.V. set... at about 7:00 in the morning after getting off a night train... from Barcelona to Lyons. (Later that day, I learned it was on the high-speed tracks and i was to poor for those, but still... whehhh :| )

Paris is beautiful. But like most Western European capitals, much of it is built with wealth that was stolen from civilizations around the world. The bomb threats in '95 are very much related to the riots of '05... Again, I just hope France can deal with these riots and this problem before the rest of the western world gets dragged into it. :|

[akip]

this is as much about mass migration and the resulting tensions for both displaced immigrants and for host cities as it is about france specifically. the particulars of french culture, politics and colonialism just exacerbate it. in asia and africa certain cities have become hotbeds of terrorism and unrest because of the rapid urbanization of rural people. the paris riots are just one manifestation.

[justa bill]

this is as much about mass migration and the resulting tensions for both displaced immigrants and for host cities as it is about france specifically. the particulars of french culture, politics and colonialism just exacerbate it. in asia and africa certain cities have become hotbeds of terrorism and unrest because of the rapid urbanization of rural people. the paris riots are just one manifestation.

yeah, i don't think that immigrant tensions are exclusive to France. but France is where the week-long riots are going on... and spreading beyond Paris. so right now, it's a "France issue".

btw, i like France a lot. I was there for the third time in 2003 when 'freedom fries' were going on menus here in the U.S., and France was not very popular with about 60% of the American voting public. (i actually had one friend get offended that I was going, and then I told him that I was also flying Air France... :-) (Air France rules, i must add)

Ya know, I'm sure the Algerians that stayed loyal to France and fled their homeland in the 60's thought they'd be received with open arms... that was 40+ years ago, and their kids are still thought of as 'forigners'. sure that could just be called a human behavior issue, but right now it's one that is specific to France. and causeing problems.... :[

[markalot]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/05/AR2005110501515.html

Good article ...

---

Rage of French Youth Is a Fight for Recognition
Spreading Rampage in Country's Slums Is Rooted in Alienation and Abiding Government Neglect

By Molly Moore
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, November 6, 2005; A01

LE BLANC-MESNIL, France, Nov. 5 -- Mohammed Rezzoug, caretaker of the municipal gymnasium and soccer field, knows far more about the youths hurling firebombs and torching cars on the streets of this Paris suburb than do the police officers and French intelligence agents struggling to nail the culprits.

He can identify most of the perpetrators. So can almost everyone else in the neighborhoods that have been attacked.

"They're my kids," said Rezzoug, a garrulous 45-year-old with thinning black hair and skin the color of a walnut.

While French politicians say the violence now circling and even entering the capital of France and spreading to towns across the country is the work of organized criminal gangs, the residents of Le Blanc-Mesnil know better. Many of the rioters grew up playing soccer on Rezzoug's field. They are the children of baggage handlers at nearby Charles de Gaulle International Airport and cleaners at the local schools.

"It's not a political revolution or a Muslim revolution," said Rezzoug. "There's a lot of rage. Through this burning, they're saying, 'I exist, I'm here.' "

Such a dramatic demand for recognition underscores the chasm between the fastest growing segment of France's population and the staid political hierarchy that has been inept at responding to societal shifts. The youths rampaging through France's poorest neighborhoods are the French-born children of African and Arab immigrants, the most neglected of the country's citizens. A large percentage are members of the Muslim community that accounts for about 10 percent of France's 60 million people.

One of Rezzoug's "kids" -- the countless youths who use the sports facilities he oversees -- is a husky, French-born 18-year-old whose parents moved here from Ivory Coast. At 3 p.m. on Saturday, he'd just awakened and ventured back onto the streets after a night of setting cars ablaze.

"We want to change the government," he said, a black baseball cap pulled low over large, chocolate-brown eyes and an ebony face. "There's no way of getting their attention. The only way to communicate is by burning."

Like other youths interviewed about their involvement in the violence of the last 10 days, he spoke on the condition he not be identified for fear the police would arrest him.

But he and others described the nightly rampages without fear, surrounded by groups of younger boys who listened with rapt attention. A few yards away, older residents of the neighborhood, many with gray hair, passed out notices appealing for an end to the violence.

A man with wire-rimmed glasses handed one of the sheets to the black-capped youth. He accepted the paper, glanced at it and smiled respectfully at his elder. The boy then carefully folded it in half and continued the conversation about how the nightly targets are selected.

"We don't plan anything," he said. "We just hit whatever we find at the moment."

In Le Blanc-Mesnil, halfway between the northern edge of Paris's city limits and the country's largest airport, youths have burned a gym, a youth center and scores of cars and trucks. Residents here say the violence that began in these northern suburbs on Oct. 27 is the worst ever in these low-income neighborhoods and the most widespread social unrest in France since student riots nearly four decades ago.

Rezzoug said about 18 youths between the ages of 15 and 25 are responsible for most of the fires and attacks on police in Le Blanc-Mesnil, though he said some young men from neighboring towns have joined in the mayhem. The youths said they dodge the authorities by splitting into small groups, using their cellular telephones and text messaging to alert each other to the location of police and firefighters.

For the young men of Le Blanc-Mesnil and hundreds in other impoverished suburbs, one man represents all they find abhorrent in the French government: Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who has been considered the country's leading contender in the 2007 presidential elections. Last month, he recommended waging a "war without mercy" against criminals and other troublemakers in the poor areas.

A week later, two Muslim teenagers from the northern suburb of Clichy-sous-Bois were electrocuted in a power substation where they were hiding from police who they believed were chasing them. French officials have said police were not pursuing the youths. Their deaths triggered the violence that quickly spread, particularly when Sarkozy called the perpetrators of the violence "scum" and "thugs."

"I'm a citizen of France, but I don't count," said an athletic 28-year-old who identified himself only as Abdel. With his trim black beard and short hair gelled into shiny black wavelets, Abdel hovered on the edge of the circle surrounding the youths who admitted to their involvement in the violence.

"They call us maggots," added a thin teenager hunched inside a thin polyester windbreaker that offered little protection from the damp chill of a gray fall afternoon.

Beyond their hatred of Sarkozy, the youths involved in the rampages and their companions offer a disparate list of grievances against the government.

Abdel, echoing the anger of many of the youths, said he resented the French government's efforts to thrust Muslim leaders into the role of mediators between the police and the violent demonstrators.

"This has nothing to do with religion," he said. "But non-Muslims are afraid of people like me with a beard. I look suspicious to them. Discrimination is all around us. We live it every day. It's become a habit. It's in the air."

He continued: "I grew up in France, yet I speak of God and religion. I have a double culture. I belong to both. We should stop the labeling."

Rezzoug, the caretaker, said he has seen local youths struggle with deep personal conflicts caused by their dual cultures. "They go to the mosque and pray," he said. "But this is France, so they also drink and party."

"They also are out to prove to their parents and brothers and uncles they can't take it any more," he said. "They're burning the places where they play, where they sit -- they're burning their own playpens."

Le Blanc-Mesnil is not a community where youths aspire to spend their lives. There is none of the glamour that most of the world associates with Paris, just a 25-minute drive or train ride away. It is an industrial city of boxy apartment complexes and strip malls. In a nation where unemployment has hovered at 10 percent this year, the rates are here four to five times as high among people under 25.

"We feel rejected, compared to the kids who live in better neighborhoods," said Nasim, a chunky 16-year-old with braces and acne. "Everything here is broken down and abandoned. There's no place for the little kids to go."

As on most Saturday afternoons, there was little for Nasim or his friends to do. They sauntered among the older youths who spent the late afternoon hanging out on street corners or the sidewalks in front of coffee shops.

Several of the older youths fingered pockets bulging with plastic packets of hashish for sale or trade. As they read local newspaper accounts of their previous night's exploits, they began discussing Saturday night's plans with more of an air of boredom than a commitment to a cause.

"We don't have the American dream here," said Rezzoug, as he surveyed the clusters of young men. "We don't even have the French dream here."

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

[justa bill]

it's basically spread throughout the whole country. It happened as far North as Strasbourg (http://france-hotel.org.uk/Strasbourg/index.php), a cool little city that's right by Germany... (they speak French but with German accents:-) It's also where the EU Parliament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament) is held... :[

at what point in time is this concidered a civil war? :(

and i saw this on BBC last night--the oppressed's view of it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/europe_paris_riot_suburb_residents/html/1.stm

--edited to add: From a rare NYTimes story on the subject: '''Rioters attacked us with baseball bats,'' Philippe Jofres, a deputy fire chief from the area told France-2 television. ''We were attacked with pickaxes. It was war.''

[akip]

Ya know, I'm sure the Algerians that stayed loyal to France and fled their homeland in the 60's thought they'd be received with open arms... that was 40+ years ago, and their kids are still thought of as 'forigners'. sure that could just be called a human behavior issue, but right now it's one that is specific to France. and causeing problems.... :[

you're right, but i wanted to point out a bigger context. europe is facing some very difficult problems ahead---they need to increase their populations for economic reasons and the birthrate of their native base is too low. but it's somewhat paradoxical that the french emphasis on "integration" into their own secular, nationalist identity---as much out of their strong belief in modern liberal values as out of superficial cultural narcissism---seems to have created much more unrest than the british or german "tolerance" in leaving the ethnics alone and not making big assimilationist efforts. the brits and germans, however, discovered that their laissez-faire approach allowed terrorist cells to gain more of a foothold and, consequently, have their own issues to grapple with---esp. the brits, since they supported the iraq invasion. the french have been more (oppressively) hands-on and have provided the best intelligence to the u.s. post-911. they're a little upset that americans won't acknowledge their substantial contribution in that area.

canada has also left their ethnics alone to create their own very separate communities and, so far, it seems to work in that environment---perhaps because anti-western sentiments are directed toward their neighbors to the south rather at home turf. i think they've been very wise to maintain their political distance from us.

[akip]

just to link some bigger context issues, like globalization, here's a piece by david rieff in the sunday nyt:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/magazine/06wwln.html

Migrant Worry
By DAVID RIEFF
Published: November 6, 2005

The issue of immigration finally seems to have achieved critical mass. Open borders, closed borders; sovereignty versus globalization; even that cruelest of questions, the "valuable" immigrant versus the immigrant who is likely to be a burden: all of these topics are now on the table. Of course, Americans have been concerned about immigration on and off for decades in some parts of the country, especially Florida and the states bordering Mexico. And yet for all the efforts of figures like Pat Buchanan or Representative Tom Tancredo, Republican of Colorado, it is only recently that large numbers of Americans have come to believe that illegal immigration is as important a matter as abortion or taxes.

In part, this is because of the fallout of 9/11. In part, it is because of a generalized belief that the country is being flooded by immigrants - an impression that is hardly false, since the United States has a higher proportion of foreign-born residents than at any time since the 1930's. It is probably also because of the fact that immigrants are now spread throughout most of the country, instead of largely remaining in the great urban centers like New York, Los Angeles and Chicago.

On the political right, the current disenchantment with the Bush administration owes much to the perception that the president is more committed to legalizing guest workers than to stemming the flow of illegal immigrants. That America's borders have become more porous under the watch of an administration whose proudest boast is its commitment to national security is an outrage to many Americans, especially Republicans. The G.O.P. pollster Frank Luntz said recently that when he brings the issue up in focus groups, "you can't shut people up."

Such a pervasive sense of being engulfed by illegal aliens has also been afflicting Europe. When Dutch voters rejected the E.U. Constitution this spring, many commentators understood their decision as a protest in part against the ever-growing number of immigrants in their midst. And when hundreds of would-be immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa rushed the barbed-wire fences that separate the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla from Morocco, the crisis eclipsed every other issue in Spain and forced the Socialist government of José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero to re-evaluate its relatively pro-immigration policies.

Supporters of immigration and its foes tend to insist that the issue is simple. American critics of open borders speak in terms of national sovereignty and cultural cohesion. The ideal of the melting pot, they insist, has become obsolete in an age marked by the anti-assimilationist doctrines of multiculturalism and the hard facts of globalization. If the United States is to retain its cultural identity, the argument goes, it cannot accept everyone who wants to come here. And on one level, this is simply a statement of fact. A recent poll showed that more than 40 percent of Mexicans said they would move to the United States if given the opportunity - that is, some 42 million people. And Mexico is doing better economically than many Central and South American countries.

Pro-immigration activists, for their part, speak in terms of globalization and justice. Globalization, they argue, cannot mean the free movement of capital and of middle-class professionals alone (American bankers in Hong Kong, French software designers in Silicon Valley). Like it or not, it also implies the free movement of peoples. In addition, without immigrants the populations of developed countries would either be stagnant (as is more or less the case in the U.S.) or moving into decline, as in Japan and much of Europe. Rich societies need laborers to do jobs that native-born people are no longer willing to do, and they need skilled immigrants to make up for shortfalls of nurses, doctors, engineers and other professionals.

In a sense, the debate boils down to culture and politics versus economics. That is probably why it is business, far more than the liberal left in the U.S. and Europe, that has been the great champion of less restrictive immigration policies. The problem is that even though politicians and businessmen refer to the new immigrants as "guest workers" (the term Europeans used in the 50's and the Bush administration is using today), they are here to stay. And popular discomfort with this reality is not xenophobia alone. A society that grants substantial rights to its citizens may be less willing to accord those rights to strangers.

Some years ago, in an effort to counter a rising anti-immigrant, anti-asylum-seeker mood, the office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees initiated a campaign with a simple slogan: "Einstein Was a Refugee." The campaign called attention to the undeniable fact that the new wave of immigration was bringing the best and the brightest of the poor world to Western Europe, Australia and the United States. If there was a problem in all this, it was that the brain drain of talented professionals from Africa and Latin America was stripping the "sender" countries of essential citizens. In other words, the "value" in the exchange was all to the benefit of the rich world and the detriment of the poor world.

But can we measure the "value" of an individual? Should we? Ultimately, the immigration debate is also an ethical debate, and as such, it raises hard questions that cannot be answered by appeals to economic calculation, human rights legislation or sentiments of nationalism alone. Difficult as it may be to think in terms of "valuable" versus "valueless" immigrants, or to distinguish between the free circulation of information and the free circulation of individuals, the growing political clamor over immigration will force us to think hard about such questions, and perhaps sooner than we expect.

David Rieff, a contributing writer, is the author, most recently, of "At the Point of a Gun: Democratic Dreams and Armed Intervention."

[justa bill]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4413794.stm

each new night is the 'worst night yet'... it's civil war, i think. :(

[markalot]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4413794.stm

each new night is the 'worst night yet'... it's civil war, i think. :(

This will fuel the anti-immigration movement, big time.

Close the borders, keep your problems.

[george]

French riots claim first victim

Monday, November 7, 2005; Posted: 9:39 a.m. EST (14:39 GMT)

PARIS, France (CNN) -- A man who was beaten by an attacker during rioting north of Paris has died, becoming the first fatality since urban unrest started 11 days ago, according to the French Foreign Ministry.

The man was beaten as he tried to put out a trash can fire on Friday in the Paris suburb of Stains in the region of Seine-Saint Denis.

A ministry spokesman identified the man as Jean Jacques Le Chenadec, 61, and said he died in a hospital of his wounds. He had been in a coma since the attack near his home.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/07/france.riots/index.html

[akip]

well, if it wasn't all over the news last week, it is now.

[BigSugar]

Time for troops.....shoot to kill. all bets are off and these ignorant fucks are gonna get exactly what they are aiming for.....alot of dead bodies. may be the only way to quell this whole thing.

of course, these murdering arsonists will be described as "misunderstood" and "simply expressing their economic circumstances".....nonsense PC terms that in real life mean "murdering arsonists"....

[justa bill]

From the NYTimes: And what appeared to be a copycat attack has taken place outside France for the first time, with the Belgian police reporting today that five cars had been burned outside the main train station in Brussels.

i hope it ends soon, but this could be only the beginning... :(

[monkey neck]

Time for troops.....shoot to kill. all bets are off and these ignorant fucks are gonna get exactly what they are aiming for.....alot of dead bodies. may be the only way to quell this whole thing.

of course, these murdering arsonists will be described as "misunderstood" and "simply expressing their economic circumstances".....nonsense PC terms that in real life mean "murdering arsonists"....

Exactly. Especially now that an innocent bystander has been killed. But the French will never do it (shoot to kill). I'm not even sure we would if faced with something similar. We've turned into pansies afraid of the political backlash.

[akip]

Exactly. Especially now that an innocent bystander has been killed. But the French will never do it (shoot to kill). I'm not even sure we would if faced with something similar. We've turned into pansies afraid of the political backlash.

i was just wondering if, miraculously, drugs were taken out of the ghetto, would the same thing happen here (and with automatic weapons in the mix). and what would we do about it?

[purple_octopus]

Funny. I was thinking just yesterday how reassuring it is to know that French trash is every bit as worthless as American trash. I was beginning to think it was just us.

[Shlep]

This is going to be a definite boon for right-wing politicians in France, who've been gaining considerable ground there in recent years.

[akip]

Funny. I was thinking just yesterday how reassuring it is to know that French trash is every bit as worthless as American trash. I was beginning to think it was just us.

i think you should take big sug along to puerto rico as your enforcer. he'd keep the riff-raff from sneaking back in. ;)

[purple_octopus]

i think you should take big sug along to puerto rico as your enforcer. he'd keep the riff-raff from sneaking back in. ;)
Big Sugar is definitely invited. I think I'll make him some important government official with a big fancy title.

[Vodka-7]

Vive la patrie! Vive la France! Vive le Rock!

[akip]

...with a big fancy title.

how about el generale?

[BigSugar]

Big Sugar is definitely invited. I think I'll make him some important government official with a big fancy title.

sweet!! Grand Pooba of Hookers and Blow has a nice ring to it! :) Sledge could be my Under-Pooba of Vice.

of course, there will be those that will ask "How can he adequately rule Costa Suga with an iron fist if he devotes time to Puerto PurpleOctopus"? To the naysayers, i say "Whhaaa? Where am i? God my head hurts.....more tequila please!"

[markalot]

Last spring, over dinner in Paris, a close friend of mine who runs one of the biggest opera houses outside the French capital told me: "I've got this persistent feeling that 1968 is just about to happen all over again."

He had no idea that the violence would erupt in the dreary, featureless suburbs.

He thought it was because the French political system had run out of ideas and credibility, and he knew the French.

These moments of weakness are the times when trouble always seems to break out. ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4414442.stm

I love the way these issues are suddenly thrust forward. Seems the US isn't the only one that likes to ignore it's poor.

[weeone]

Chirac is terrified to do anything because he's trying to avoid revolts, and it's pissing people off anyway. He's 74 and it's time for a new progressive leader.

[euro60]

Chirac is terrified to do anything because he's trying to avoid revolts, and it's pissing people off anyway. He's 74 and it's time for a new progressive leader.
Ok so we're about a week and we're STILL at the same topic? wow... I can't believe it but I have not seen one second of footage of this on TV.

[Vodka-7]

Ok so we're about a week and we're STILL at the same topic? wow... I can't believe it but I have not seen one second of footage of this on TV.


Most of the French media has decided against broadcasting any footage fearing it will only encourage or escalate levels of violence. Clearly, not showing any footage has done wonders...

[REMgirl]

Euro, there has been coverage on the national evening news. I don't have cable, so all I get is network stuff, but it's been on for the past couple of nights, either CBS or NBC. They've been updating the stories and have also shown some conversations with officials as well as people in the various areas under attack.

[akip]

it's been on heavy rotation, cnn.

[back2vinyl]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4414442.stm

I love the way these issues are suddenly thrust forward. Seems the US isn't the only one that likes to ignore it's poor.


France has been mistreating people for centuries. Look at the condition of their old colonies compared to the British. Would you rather live in Somalia or New Zealand?

[euro60]

Euro, there has been coverage on the national evening news. I don't have cable, so all I get is network stuff, but it's been on for the past couple of nights, either CBS or NBC. They've been updating the stories and have also shown some conversations with officials as well as people in the various areas under attack.
Thanks for the heads up REMgirl, but seeing that it is now 6:45 PM and I'm STILL at work.... Oh wells, who needs to see looting and burning anyway. ;)

[justa bill]

I took a class once in college: "The History of France from 1400 to 1700." Believe it or not, I took this of my own free will... :]

It was a great class, and I learned a lot. Like, in 1400, what we call "France" was still a number of separate principalities, but by 1700 the area we know of as "France" today was formed and had established itself as one of the world's superpowers.

It wasn't always a pretty process, and during that process, the idea of "France" was rammed down the throats of Brittany, Languedoc, Auvergne, et. al. along with the language of "French". The "Franks" were actaully a Germanic tribe that took over a Celtic area and set up court in what we know as Paris. Through conquest, marriage and still more conquest these guys in Paris assembled a pretty large area that had nothing to do with them originally.

(I'm pretty certain that it was only in 'recent' times that the people of Languedoc were legally permitted to speak whatever the language was that they spoke before forced to only speak "French". NPR had a story a few months ago about the return of the language in the Arts and in everyday life...)

Ok, so in the middle ages, the groweth of "France" was pretty organic--if you will. Neighbor took over neighbor. It could be ugly, but it was pretty basic. And it happened in the course of centuries.

My point: suppose one takes all of that "inforced 'Frenchness'" and tries to graft it on to people that have travel significant distances in a relatively short period of time and are from significantly different cultures to begin with. It just may bite one on the butt. :[

--
again, i like France. Especially the "French" part of France--that is Paris and the areas around it.

oh yeah, and PBS lead off with this story on the News Hour tonight... they weren't even mentioning it last week. :/

[REMgirl]

Thanks for the heads up REMgirl, but seeing that it is now 6:45 PM and I'm STILL at work.... Oh wells, who needs to see looting and burning anyway.

Well, this is your lucky day, Euro, because starting tonight, NBC news is going to go to online rebroadcast of their nightly news show. I can't remember the address specifically, but it's something like msnbc.com. Whatever, if you go to their main website for NBC, I'll bet they have the update. I think they start the rebroadcast at 10 pm EST. :)

[rocketman70]

This is going to be a definite boon for right-wing politicians in France, who've been gaining considerable ground there in recent years.


Yep, I agree. I can just see Le Pen sharpening his claws.

[rocketman70]

I thought France was the friend of peace, against the Iraq war, all that? If we can attach Britains terror attacks to their cooperation in the Iraqi war then what can we make of this? Perhaps the kinds of people who riot are too stupid to add 1 + 1?

Why don't they just arrest / kill all these rioters? Useless people anyway. Oh the poor impoverished immigrants who for some reason moved to France, then had kids, and now this? What did they move away from? Why are they so poor? Where are the jobs?

I thought France had this awesome social safety net, what happened to these people? Where is the net? Someone run out of money?

And the meek shall inherit the earth ... unless you kill them first.

Am I actually feeling sorry for France here?

True, they have that social safety net and all, but it was under a lot of strain due to the increased immigration.
The French and French govt have not exactly been too subtle about the overt racism directed towards the immigrants from their former colonies. Now I'm not saying all French are racists. Most definitely not. It's just that the govt hasn't exactly been very accomodating to certain peoples in France. This situation has been brewing for quite some time now. It was certain to come to a head.

And please don't get me wrong, I'm not a Franco-phobe or anything. It's just that the French govt has created their own problem. America may have its own problems and all, but one thing is, we certainly are a hell of a lot more tolerant than the rest of the world. I hope the French can get things under control. Maybe this will open some eyes over there.

[weeone]

Yep, I agree. I can just see Le Pen sharpening his claws.
http://www.adl.org/international/le_pen_lg.jpg

or

http://llamabutchers.mu.nu/archives/goofy%20chirac%20pic.jpg

[rocketman70]

http://www.adl.org/international/le_pen_lg.jpg

or

http://llamabutchers.mu.nu/archives/goofy%20chirac%20pic.jpg


Yeah, that's about the truth. Yikes, I'll have that image of Le Pen in my head all night now. :eek:

[george]

Getting worse -- spreading to "almost every major French city."


Excerpts from: First Death Is Reported in Paris Riots as Arson Increases (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07cnd-france.html?hp)
By CRAIG S. SMITH

PARIS, Monday, Nov. 8 - France's growing urban unrest claimed its first life today and Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin later indicated on French television that the government was near a decision to allow local officials to impose curfews.
...

On Sunday night alone, the authorities said, more than 1,400 vehicles were burned in 274 towns across the country. The destruction stretched into the heart of Paris, where 35 vehicles were destroyed, and touched almost every major city in France.
...

While there had been earlier reports of rioters firing weapons, the shootings on Sunday marked the first time that police officers had been wounded by weapons since the riots began; 77 members of the police and 31 firemen have been injured since the disturbances began on Oct. 27 after two youths hiding from the police were accidentally electrocuted.
...

Rampaging youths have attacked the police, property and ordinary people in cities as far away as Toulouse and Marseille and in the resort towns of Cannes and Nice in the south, the industrial city of Lille in the north and Strasbourg to the east.

In the northern Paris suburb of Sevran, a 56-year-old handicapped woman was hospitalized with severe burns last week she received when could not get off a bus that had been doused with gasoline and set on fire by rioters.

In the northern suburb of Aubervilliers, a reporter for a South Korean television station was beaten unconscious over the weekend, Agence France-Presse reported, though colleagues said she was expected to be released from the hospital soon.
...

Most people said they sensed that the escalation of the past few days had changed the rules of the game: besides the number of attacks, the level of destruction has grown sharply, with substantial businesses and public buildings going down in flames. Besides the gunfire on Sunday, residents of some high-rise apartment blocks have been throwing steel boccie balls and improvised explosives at national riot police officers patrolling below.
...

Many politicians have warned that the unrest may be coalescing into an organized movement, citing Internet chatter that is urging other poor neighborhoods across France to join in.
...

No one has emerged to take the lead like Daniel Cohn-Bendit, known as Danny the Red, did during the violent student protests that rocked the French capital in 1968.

Though a majority of the youths committing the acts are Muslim, and of African or North African origin, the mayhem has yet to take on any ideological or religious overtones. Youths in the neighborhoods say second-generation Portuguese immigrants and even some children of native French have taken part.

In an effort to stop the attacks and distance them from Islam, France's most influential Islamic group issued a religious edict, or fatwa, condemning the violence.
...

The youths have singled out the French interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, complaining about his zero-tolerance anticrime drive and dismissive talk. (He famously called troublemakers in the poor neighborhoods dregs, using a French slur that offended many people.)

But Mr. Sarkozy has not wavered, and after suffering initial isolation within the government, with at least one minister openly criticizing him, the government has closed ranks around him. Mr. Chirac, who is under political and popular pressure to stop the violence, said Sunday that those responsible for it would face arrest and trial, echoing earlier vows by Mr. Sarkozy. More than 500 people have been arrested, some as young as 13.

"The republic is completely determined to be stronger than those who want to sow violence or fear," Mr. Chirac said at a news conference in the courtyard of Élysée Palace after meeting with his internal security council. "The last word must be from the law."

The government response is as much a test between Mr. Sarkozy and Prime Minister Villepin, both of whom want to succeed Mr. Chirac as president, as it is a test between the government and disaffected youths.

Mr. Villepin, a former foreign minister, has focused on a more diplomatic approach, consulting widely with community leaders and young second-generation immigrants to come up with a promised "action plan" that he said would address frustrations in the underprivileged neighborhoods. He has released no details of the plan.

If the damage escalates and sympathy for the rioters begins to fray, Mr. Sarkozy could well emerge the politically stronger of the two.

[Kezman]

It seems to just be getting worse and worse, night after night.
I thought it was only a matter of time before something kicked off in Marseille, it's got a notorious problem with North African immigrants, being one of the largest cities in the south.

We're getting a great deal of coverage of the riots over here in the UK, I suppose it is close to home, and we do share a similar situation, with large numbers of immigrants from ex-colonies. It's really sad to see this happening, but i suppose there's been a lot of anger bottled up for some time, and it just took an incident like the shooting of those two lads to release it.

[akip]

the other side of the coin to the racist french---their immigrants are largely muslim and have not been immune to all the shit being stirred up in the middle east. intolerant though the french can be, they have a larger hurdle to clear in assimilating an increasingly anti-western muslim population than we have in trying to assimilate latin americans.

[justa bill]

We're getting a great deal of coverage of the riots over here in the UK... ...it just took an incident like the shooting of those two lads to release it.

i thought they were accidentaly electrocuted... are you guys hearing something else? are the "kids on the street" claiming they were shot???

the other side of the coin to the racist french---their immigrants are largely muslim and have not been immune to all the shit being stirred up in the middle east...

just for clarity, akip. are you refering to Iraq as the 'shit being stirred up' and saying this is America's/the UK's/Denmark's/Australia'/Italy's/Poland's/Nepal's/Japan's/South Korea's/all the rest's fault? :confused: again, just checking, are you saying this isn't France's doing?

--

btw, i'm going to try to upload some video i have from the Institute of the Arab World (http://www.imarabe.org/) in Paris. there's a great scene of a little boy playing 'football' with his dad out in front of the wonderful, modern buiding which houses the Center.... :]

[akip]

p. are you refering to Iraq as the 'shit being stirred up' and saying this is America's/the UK's/Denmark's/Australia'/Italy's/Poland's/Nepal's/Japan's/South Korea's/all the rest's fault? :confused: again, just checking, are you saying this isn't France's doing?


iraq, but also the entire crisis in the middle east, from the palestinians to the saudis, al qaeda, and beyond.

events this big never have one cause, only a trigger.

[Cleo]

Here an example of what the French newspapers are saying:

Editorial in Le Figaro:

"France is paying for its arrogance. In the eyes of the world, our famous model of social integration is going down the drain... Vengeance is a dish best served cold. America will never forget the criticisms of its society during the Iraq war and after the hurricane in Louisiana.

"But their criticism is not entirely unjustified. It underlines 40 years of political failure... Too often, ideology has trumped pragmatism in dealing with the problems of the suburbs. Plans to rebuild and renovate have not been followed up with money. In particular, it is misguided to think that tweaking around the edges would give pride and hope to the descendants of French immigrants, who have too often been soothed by speeches presenting them as victims rather than responsible citizens...

"Is Islam at the heart of the current violence? Not as far as one can tell. The solution seems to lie in reaffirming everyone's rights and responsibilities."

[Cleo]

iraq, but also the entire crisis in the middle east, from the palestinians to the saudis, al qaeda, and beyond.

events this big never have one cause, only a trigger.

dude, seriously... you really think this has to do with all that?!? It's an internal problem as much as saying that Katrina was a response from the Al Qaida from the war in Irak... you are mixing two things that have nothing to do with each other. The riots are not becuase of the war, they are becuase of people that are not/have not been able to integrate. The same thing that happens in Germany with Turkish immigrants who were also brought to the country during an economic boom and since that boom ceased, have been to a certain extent ignored. They didn't go back to their countries, they stayed, had families, their children are lost in between two worlds: that of their parents and the one where they grew up, they don't know where they belong... the majority of the rioters are 14 to 15 years old.

[akip]

dude, seriously... you really think this has to do with all that?!? It's an internal problem as much as saying that Katrina was a response from the Taliban from the war... you are mixing two things that have nothing to do with each other. The riots are not becuase of the war, they are becuase of people that are not/have not been able to integrate. The same thing that happens in Germany with Turkish immigrants who were also brought to the country during an economic boom and since that boom stopped, have been to a certain extent ignored. They didn't go back to their countries, they stayed, had families, their children are lost in between two worlds: that of their parents and the one where they grew up, they don't know where they belong... the majority of the rioters are 14 to 15 years old.

yes, it's an immigrant problem and a french one at that, but the greater identity situation makes it worse. the muslim world as a whole is struggling with modernity. the fact that everyone is connected globally through media like al jazeera makes it impossible to isolate the phenomenon as purely local.

[markalot]

yes, it's an immigrant problem and a french one at that, but the greater identity situation makes it worse. the muslim world as a whole is struggling with modernity. the fact that everyone is connected globally through media like al jazeera makes it impossible to isolate the phenomenon as purely local.

Plus I believe groups like Al Queda could exploit the situation because they are all or mostly muslim. Not a root cause, but a connection none the less.

[Cleo]

yes, it's an immigrant problem and a french one at that, but the greater identity situation makes it worse. the muslim world as a whole is struggling with modernity. the fact that everyone is connected globally through media like al jazeera makes it impossible to isolate the phenomenon as purely local.

I fail to see the connection between the muslim world and the riots. Most of the rioters are of muslim descent but they are not protesting because of religious reasons...

Anyway, I'll leave at that...

[BigSugar]

I took a class once in college: "The History of France from 1400 to 1700." Believe it or not, I took this of my own free will... :]

It was a great class, and I learned a lot. Like, in 1400, what we call "France" was still a number of separate principalities, but by 1700 the area we know of as "France" today was formed and had established itself as one of the world's superpowers.

It wasn't always a pretty process, and during that process, the idea of "France" was rammed down the throats of Brittany, Languedoc, Auvergne, et. al. along with the language of "French". The "Franks" were actaully a Germanic tribe that took over a Celtic area and set up court in what we know as Paris. Through conquest, marriage and still more conquest these guys in Paris assembled a pretty large area that had nothing to do with them originally.

(I'm pretty certain that it was only in 'recent' times that the people of Languedoc were legally permitted to speak whatever the language was that they spoke before forced to only speak "French". NPR had a story a few months ago about the return of the language in the Arts and in everyday life...)

Ok, so in the middle ages, the groweth of "France" was pretty organic--if you will. Neighbor took over neighbor. It could be ugly, but it was pretty basic. And it happened in the course of centuries.

My point: suppose one takes all of that "inforced 'Frenchness'" and tries to graft it on to people that have travel significant distances in a relatively short period of time and are from significantly different cultures to begin with. It just may bite one on the butt. :[

--
again, i like France. Especially the "French" part of France--that is Paris and the areas around it.

oh yeah, and PBS lead off with this story on the News Hour tonight... they weren't even mentioning it last week. :/

i read an article recently where the "Languedoc-ians" were demanding reparations for their over 600 years of oppression by the French govt. and the citizens of France.

not.

[BigSugar]

yes, it's an immigrant problem...

"..even when it was the bears, i knew it was the immagants." Moe Sizlack

[akip]

there is a strong current in the muslim faith (and is the core of islamist belief), which is anti-nation-state, pro-sharia law. the french have had a particular axe to grind with this tendency in their own immigrant population. they outlawed the wearing of the veil in public schools in response, after all, and this has been extremely unpopular with young french muslims. of course, you can't blame the algerians, etc., for turning to islamic identity in their alienation. but on both sides it's making the tensions very hard to resolve.

i'm not saying this is the primary cause, but it sure as hell has ramped up the atmosphere. you have two immovable forces coliding.

[akip]

"..even when it was the bears, i knew it was the immagants." Moe Sizlack

you, moe and lou dobbs. :D

[Cleo]

One last comment on all this and I'll leave the thread...

If you have a chance and haven't seen it already, look for a movie called La Haine (The Hate), it is directed by Mathew Kassovitz, brilliantly acted, incredible story and an amazing metaphor that hits you at right moment... I highly highly recommend it...

[george]

November 8, 2005
Despite Minor Incidents, Chance of Large-Scale Riots Elsewhere in Europe Is Seen as Small (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/08/international/europe/08react.html)
By RICHARD BERNSTEIN

BERLIN, Nov. 7 - Cars were set ablaze late Sunday night in Berlin, in the German city of Bremen and in Brussels in what appeared to be copies of the riots in France. The incidents, though minor so far, served as a reminder to many Europeans that the violence that has swept France could spread to other countries in Europe that also have large, relatively poor and culturally alienated ethnic minorities, most of them predominantly Muslim.

And, to be sure, there has already been intense violence elsewhere in Europe, if nothing quite like the continuing French disturbances, most notably the fighting between Pakistani and Bangladeshi immigrants and British police officers in several towns in northern England in the summer of 2001.

And yet, as officials and immigrant group leaders watched the violence in Paris on television, there seemed to be at least a cautious and tentative conviction that the chance of riots on the scale of the ones in the Paris suburbs breaking out in other countries is small.

"From my point of view, we don't have to fear this in Germany," Norbert Seitz, director of the German Forum for Crime Prevention, a private information center, said in an interview. The main reason, he said, was the effort of Germany's state and local governments and the police to create youth services and build relations with immigrant groups.

Wolfgang Schäuble, a conservative member of Parliament slated to be Germany's interior minister, concurred. "The conditions in France are different from the ones we have," he said. "We don't have these gigantic high-rise projects that they have on the edges of French cities."

Many European countries, from Spain to the Netherlands to Italy, have substantial immigrant minorities, including Muslims from North Africa and Turkey. There is certainly a fear in those countries that ghettoized, poor, culturally separate communities are becoming permanent, with the sense of alienation and despair that such places often entail.

Particularly in the wake of the rise of global Islamic terrorism and some highly publicized individual attacks by European-born Muslims - most notoriously the killing last year of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh - the nervousness provoked by ever larger Muslim populations in Europe has noticeably increased.

In general, Europe, which has never developed an immigration culture, seems to have been less successful than the United States at integrating foreigners and giving them a stake in a new national identity.

At the same time, European immigrants seem to have been less eager than immigrants to the United States to take on a new identity, instead adhering to their traditional identities, languages and customs for generation after generation.

"One of the greatest dishonesties of European policy and intellectual discourse," the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung said Monday, "has been that multicultural issues can be discussed only in one direction - the 'accepting society.' Whoever calls on the immigrants themselves to integrate better is seen as a nationalist monster who lacks 'openness.' "

Abdelkarim Carrasco, a Spanish Muslim leader, said the risk of a French-like outburst in Spain was small, in part because, with a Muslim population of one million, France simply has many more poor North African Muslims than Spain does.

But The Associated Press quoted Mr. Carrasco as also saying, "Either Europe develops and supports the idea of a mixed culture, or Europe has no future."

In Italy, the leftist opposition leader, Romano Prodi, a former president of the European Union, warned that poverty, unemployment and urban decay could cause ethnic violence similar to that of France.

And yet, to anyone familiar with the Paris suburbs, with their ugly high-rise ghetto communities and France's aversion to any special treatment for ethnic minorities, it is little surprise that the recent violence has erupted there.

"I'm always saying, Berlin Kreuzberg is an island of happiness compared to the situation in France," Daniel Cohn-Bendit, a leader of the May 1968 student uprising in France and now a member of the European Parliament from Germany, said in an interview with Der Spiegel. The reference was to the district in Berlin where many of Germany's Turkish immigrants have settled.

While much of Kreuzberg is poorer than other sections of Berlin, it bears no resemblance to Clichy or St.-Denis or any of the other Muslim ghettos near Paris. Kreuzberg is very much a part of Berlin itself, with similar housing, restaurants and cafes and a mix of populations that gives it a multicultural flavor reminiscent of neigborhoods in New York or Los Angeles. Unlike Clichy, for instance, it is no ghetto.

"It's not that there aren't problems," said Oguz Ucuncu, the secretary general of the Islamic Community of Milli Görus, one of Germany's main Turkish organizations. "But here you don't have the sort of depressing environment you have in France, where they is no prospect of getting out."

[weeone]

Well its a good thing i'm going to france soon.
Mark is in Bordeaux right now and will be in Paris tomorrow ... my friend in Paris says it's not bad in the city ... it's confined to the banlieus for the most part :(

[euro60]

Mark is in Bordeaux right now and will be in Paris tomorrow ... my friend in Paris says it's not bad in the city ... it's confined to the banlieus for the most part :(
What terrible timing to be touring in France, weeone, sorry to hear. Let's hope that everything will work out ok for the guys.

[akip]

Well its a good thing i'm going to france soon.

yeah, cheaper fares.



btw, that's a good article from the times, george.

[markalot]

Washington Post Editorial
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/07/AR2005110701286.html

Fires in France

Tuesday, November 8, 2005; Page A18

THE RIOTS in France have provoked their own mini-storm of misinterpretation, outside the country and among some of the French. So it's worth noting what 12 days (so far) of car-burning, looting and occasional shooting in the poor suburbs of Paris, and now dozens of other towns, is not about. It's not the European version of an intifada: Islamic ideology and leaders play no role in the disturbances, and many of those participating are not Muslim. But not all the demonstrators are hoodlums and drug dealers either, as some senior French officials portray them; anger over high unemployment and racism has been building in these ghettos for years.

It's also too facile to say that French authorities have ignored the problems. Billions have been spent on urban renewal: High-rise projects have been torn down and enterprise zones created, much as in some American inner cities. As in the United States, interlinked problems of jobs, schools, crime and discrimination have not easily yielded to government solutions. Yet until now, many in France assumed that what they regard as a superior "social model" protected them from the eruptions of lawlessness that in recent years have touched Los Angeles, Miami and New Orleans.

Caught by surprise, slow to react, plagued by political posturing and finger-pointing, the French leadership is demonstrating that poor crisis response is also not unique to U.S. administrations. Yet beneath the disarray -- embodied in the simultaneously laconic and belligerent behavior of President Jacques Chirac -- some fresh thinking is evident. Ironically, some of it comes from Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, who has been pilloried by the demonstrators and left-wing press for his own ugly rhetoric. Mr. Sarkozy recently suggested that France abandon the pretense that all of its citizens -- including an estimated 5 million Muslims -- are treated equally, and adopt affirmative-action policies. He has also promoted the idea of a peaceful and tolerant "French Islam" to compete with imported ideologies of extremism.

In the short term, French authorities have to take forceful measures to restore order. Should the violence persist, extremists could use it to create political or religious causes that do not now exist. But in the medium term, France would benefit from the kind of reexamination of its policies toward minorities and immigrants that Mr. Sarkozy suggests. It's no longer reasonable to pretend that the poor Muslim descendants of North Africans in crowded housing projects are indistinguishable from all other French. If mainstream politicians do not fashion an agenda of inclusion for them, more militant actors will have a vacuum to fill.

[justa bill]

i read an article recently where the "Languedoc-ians" were demanding reparations for their over 600 years of oppression by the French govt. and the citizens of France.

not.

is that "not" as in you didn't read that... :confused: or "not" as in it will never happen? ;)

'cuase i've been a proponent of reparations for a long time... but i'm the only person i know who thinks that it's the "major euro-powers" that need to write most of the world a big, fat check... :|

Yeah, kind of tricky to establish a price tag, but that would give the UN something to work on for the next 20 years. :]

[BigSugar]

Blair just sent Bush a bill. Item: 1 cargo ship and contents. Contents: Tea. Amount Due: $42 Billion (inflation adjusted).

Likewise, the Spanish sent the British a bill for all those Armada ships, and Israel sent Egypt a bill for "moving expenses/dry cleaning - 40 years worth".

clearly money can solve all past wrongs. clearly.

[justa bill]

clearly money can solve all past wrongs. clearly.

oh, don't think it can. but the established, systematic raping of vast areas of the world which was enacted over multiple centuries by some countries... that shit should have a price tag. at vary least, it should be discussed.

sorry, but you can't walk through the center of Madrid without being surrounded by glorious buildings... buildings which were financed by the blood of people on continents far far away from the middle of the Iberian peninsula. :(

that wasn't healthy for the world. it should be acknowledged. :|

[BigSugar]

oh, don't think it can. but the established, systematic raping of vast areas of the world which was enacted over multiple centuries by some countries... that shit should have a price tag. at vary least, it should be discussed.

sorry, but you can't walk through the center of Madrid without being surrounded by glorious buildings... buildings which were financed by the blood of people on continents far far away from the middle of the Iberian peninsula. :(

that wasn't healthy for the world. it should be acknowledged. :|

that's fine. but when you talk about it, talk about who's going to pay the people that the raped culture/peoples were in turn raping and abusing. or for that matter, the rapee's of the culture raped by the people that were raping the rapers. I mean, EVERY CULTURE AND CIVILIZATION FROM THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN EXISTANCE has raped or abused another person/culture/people/land for their own gain. where do we draw the line at "repairing" the problems with money (ie: reparations). Do we find all direct decendants of Adam and Eve and give them each 20 billion?? if so, and you subscribe to the genetically impossible theory of "first two humans in existence", then we all should get money. or do we just look to Able's lineage, since Cain was a murderer and usurped Able for his own gain??

seriously.......the fucking Irish built all those damn cool stone fences that circle the huge horse farms in Lexington and didn't get paid shit! I'm Irish. give me a giant horse farm and a pile of cash and we'll call it even. no, really. i've been damaged. i want money. gimme!

[Rafe]

that's fine. but when you talk about it, talk about who's going to pay the people that the raped culture/peoples were in turn raping and abusing. or for that matter, the rapee's of the culture raped by the people that were raping the rapers. I mean, EVERY CULTURE AND CIVILIZATION FROM THE BEGINNING OF HUMAN EXISTANCE has raped or abused another person/culture/people/land for their own gain. Yes. Sadly, we've all been cunts at one time or another.

As to the predicament in Paris and France in general, It's upsetting.

[justa bill]

Do we find all direct decendants of Adam and Eve and give them each 20 billion??

no, ya big sweety, that's not neccessary. But there were European countries which still had substantial colonies in "our lifetime"... (meaning close enough to today that there are still living breathing individuals who have to deal with the consequences.)

Most of the natives of western Africa still speaks "French". Do you think this is an accident? Check out this list... it's a long list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_European_colonies

Or maybe you'd be interested to learn that France STILL has a "colony" in the Americas. That's right, the 5th largest economy in the world STILL takes some of it's wealth from an intirely different continent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana

Or the horrors that have happened in Rwanda in recent times... do you think that maybe, just maybe, that had something to do with the fact that Rwanda was traded back and forth between European countries less than 100 years ago? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwanda

Belgian-forced labor policies and stringent taxes were mainly enforced by the Tutsi upper class, whom the Belgians used as buffers against people's anger, thus further polarising the Hutu and the Tutsi. Many young peasants, in order to escape tax harassment and hunger, migrated to neighboring countries. They moved mainly to Congo but also to Ugandan plantations, looking for work.

So again, while young men from America (including those of Irish decent) were busy dying to free parts of Europe from other parts of Europe, those soon-to-be-freed parts of Europe were still in "ownership" of significant chunks of the world.

So yeah, what France is seeing right now, just may be a screaming, kicking, flaming incarnation of Karma. just maybe...

[Orville Wrong]

oh, don't think it can. but the established, systematic raping of vast areas of the world which was enacted over multiple centuries by some countries... that shit should have a price tag. at vary least, it should be discussed.
What, exactly, does giving Robert Mugabe or Hosni Mubarak billions of dollars accomplish in practice to right the wrongs of colonialism (assuming for the sake of this argument that they can be righted)? Are Ibos and Yorubas, Hutus and Tutsis, Islamic Brotherhood and Copts gonna drop machetes and hug because the top thug in Lagos, Kigali or Cairo builds a new palace on a French or Belgian dime?

Besides which, the whole notion smacks of the "White Man's Burden." Isn't a noblesse oblige "price tag" racist?

[weeone]

Besides which, the whole notion smacks of the "White Man's Burden." Isn't a noblesse oblige "price tag" racist?
Yes, and it's gross, too.

[justa bill]

Besides which, the whole notion smacks of the "White Man's Burden." Isn't a noblesse oblige "price tag" racist?

There are large parts of the world that were stripped of their wealth, then abandoned and left to pick up the pieces. I'm not sure how you equate any of that with "race" or any concept as elitest as "noblesse oblige". No one is obliged because they're 'noble'--or 'white' for crying out loud... they're obliged because they took it. :|

And there were many ways to take, and there are many ways to give. Cutting a check to dictators--or deposed dictators--isn't what I'm suggesting.

I'm not saying wealthy European counties should "support" poor nations every where because they're "wealthy European countries"... But if they TOOK from the world, they should GIVE it back. I think it is pretty clear, and it is fairly well documented in some cases. There are, in fact, accounting records for some of it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Congo


French Congo was the original French colony established in the present-day area of the Republic of the Congo, Gabon, and the Central African Republic. It began in 1880 as a protectorate, and its borders with Cabinda, Cameroons, and the Congo Free State were established by treaties over the next decade. The plan to develop the colony was to grant massive concessions to some thirty French companies. These were granted huge swaths of land on the promise they would be developed. This development was limited and amounted mostly to the extraction of ivory, rubber, and timber. These operations often involved great brutality and the near enslavement of the locals. From what I've learned on the subject, I'd agree with all of that except for the word "near" in that last sentence. :|

yeah, the whole matter is pretty fucking "gross". not sure why any honest, fair-minded person would be offended by the idea of "righting one's wrongs" though... :confused:

[markalot]

yeah, the whole matter is pretty fucking "gross". not sure why any honest, fair-minded person would be offended by the idea of "righting one's wrongs" though...

Who is one? That is the issue. One ain't alive anymore. This concept of righting wrongs is infinite. It only ends where you feel comfortable with it ending. We have different comfort levels.

Also please note that Wikipedia is not a fact based source. Each entry was written by an individual who may or may not have had an agenda and the content may or may not be factual, or well researched.

[weeone]

Who is one? That is the issue. One ain't alive anymore. This concept of righting wrongs is infinite. It only ends where you feel comfortable with it ending. We have different comfort levels.

Also please note that Wikipedia is not a fact based source. Each entry was written by an individual who may or may not have had an agenda and the content may or may not be factual, or well researched.
The idea behind wikipedia is that it is neutral. Anyone is welcome to debate the neutrality behind an article. Many intellectuals do on their forum. It's the most broad representation I've seen in reference material. This coming from someone who was hooked on worldfactbook, a cia organized internet reference, so you may poo poo me if you wish. You probably do.

[markalot]

The idea behind wikipedia is that it is neutral. Anyone is welcome to debate the neutrality behind an article. Many intellectuals do on their forum. It's the most broad representation I've seen in reference material. This coming from someone who was hooked on worldfactbook, a cia organized internet reference, so you may poo poo me if you wish. You probably do.


Even the wikipedia founder questions it's value. There is little to no editorial control over the articles. Many of the more politicized references become a pissing contest for who can post last.

I love the wikipedia idea, but there aren't enough editorial controls in place to make sure the facts are facts or are properly reference. So you end up with a crapshoot. The article on the french congo might be dead on, or it might have been written by someone like me, a France hater. I can edit the entry right now, if you like, and put my own spin on it.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/24/wikipedia_letters/

But something is changing since we last wrote about Wikipedia a year ago. Even project founder Jimmy Wales has been obliged to admit its entries are "a horrific embarrassment". Readability, which wasn't great to begin with, has plummeted. Formerly coherent and reasonably accurate articles in the technical section have gotten worse as they've gotten longer. And most interesting of all, the public is beginning to notice.

[akip]

the french, as much as i love em, have blood on their hands even recently in rwanda. they backed the hutus leading up to the slaughter a mere decade ago.

but i agree you can't right past wrongs, no matter how heinous. but france has to move ahead in the 21st century as a nation that ought to bolster its claim to liberty and equality. the french govt has some work to do. their situation is very complicated.

[weeone]

Even the wikipedia founder questions it's value. There is little to no editorial control over the articles. Many of the more politicized references become a pissing contest for who can post last.

I love the wikipedia idea, but there aren't enough editorial controls in place to make sure the facts are facts or are properly reference. So you end up with a crapshoot. The article on the french congo might be dead on, or it might have been written by someone like me, a France hater. I can edit the entry right now, if you like, and put my own spin on it.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/24/wikipedia_letters/
It must be exhausting feeling so susceptible to conspiracy all the time. And then all the hating. You must be absolutely wiped out at the end of the day.

[justa bill]

Who is one? That is the issue. One ain't alive anymore. This concept of righting wrongs is infinite. It only ends where you feel comfortable with it ending. We have different comfort levels.

Also please note that Wikipedia is not a fact based source. Each entry was written by an individual who may or may not have had an agenda and the content may or may not be factual, or well researched.

Dude... are you saying four centuries of brutal European colonialism didn't exist BECAUSE it's written about in Wikipedia? :confused: which facts do you contest and what are your resources?

I used Wikipedia because it's accessible and concise. But there are mountains of documentation on this subject.

Encarta... not concise (& not free), but heres' some of what they present on the subject:

D
New Imperialism (1870-1914)
That lack of competition changed in the late 19th century, as European powers again became interested in expanding. This was particularly true of Germany, which had become a united nation in 1871 (see German Unification). Almost all the European powers vied with one another for colonies. This surging political rivalry drove New Imperialism.

Although European colonial expansion at the end of the 19th century was called New Imperialism, the motives of colonizers remained the same as in earlier periods. They usually sought economic advantages, but these were hard to disentangle from political and strategic motives. The main differences in this era were the number of competing colonial powers and the parts of the world they chose to colonize. Almost all European powers participated, and they sought colonies in Africa and in the Pacific.

In what is called the Scramble for Africa, European nations partitioned Africa at the Berlin West Africa Conference (1884-1885). The Germans got southwestern Africa, along with Tanganyika in East Africa. The Portuguese got Mozambique and Angola, in southern Africa. Belgium took the Congo, and France got Senegal, the Cameroons, and several other colonies in the western Sudan and Central Africa. The British got the rest, including Kenya and Uganda in East Africa, the Gold Coast (now Ghana) and the territory that became Nigeria in West Africa. The British already controlled Egypt, which they had occupied in 1882, as well as English-speaking Cape Colony and Natal on the southern tip of Africa. The British also dominated Southern Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) and Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia) through the British South Africa Company under the leadership of Cecil Rhodes. The result was that almost every part of the African continent was a European colony.


In the first decade of the 20th century, the administration of the Congo Free State became increasingly oppressive in its exploitation of Congolese workers, and word of the exploitation led to international protest. Reports by British diplomat Roger David Casement and journalist E. D. Morel publicized the lack of development in the Congo and the regular use of torture by Leopold’s rubber collection agents. Public opinion forced Leopold to establish a commission of inquiry in 1904. The commission revealed that the Congolese were victims of a slave labor system and other human rights abuses. The king instituted certain reforms, but these proved ineffective. As a result, in 1908 the Belgian parliament voted to annex the Congo Free State, making it a colony that became known as the Belgian Congo. While the most unfair labor practices were eliminated, most Congolese people fared little better under the new administration.

Don't like Encarta? How about the Encyclopedia Bri-fucking-tanica:

The pioneer colonizer in Central Africa was Leopold II, king of the Belgians (1865-1909). The early attempts of his father, Leopold I, to found colonies in remnants of the Spanish empire in the Pacific or America had failed, and he therefore turned his attention to Central Africa, which was still little known to European geographers and therefore less intensely coveted than West Africa.

Early 20th century... not "Adam and Eve's" time period by any means.

As a matter of fact, it's even closer to the present than the 'early' 20th century. France was a part of the E.U.'s beginning (http://www.bartleby.com/65/eu/EuropnCNSC.html) in 1952. France officially joined the European Union in 1957. France didn't free Algeria till the early 1960's... They really didn't get out of Vietnam till the 60's either. And whether right or wrong, the U.S. was concerned about Communist powers from filling the void, and as a result some 50,000 Americans died. :[

The effects of all of this are still seen today. Look at the infrastructure of France--it's highways, railways, utilities, it's nuclear-fucking powerplants... then look at the condition of it's former colonies.

...or, if you prefer, look at the condition of it's current colonies. :|

time to give back?

[markalot]

It must be exhausting feeling so susceptible to conspiracy all the time. And then all the hating. You must be absolutely wiped out at the end of the day.

It's much easier to accept anything I agree with as fact. So in this case, because I hate France, the wikipedia article must be fact.

Sience is hard too, having to constantly prove and reprove and test theories. This is why I like Intelligent Design over evolution. Anything unexplained must be the work of god. :rolleyes:

[weeone]

It's much easier to accept anything I agree with as fact. So in this case, because I hate France, the wikipedia article must be fact.

Sience is hard too, having to constantly prove and reprove and test theories. This is why I like Intelligent Design over evolution. Anything unexplained must be the work of god. :rolleyes:
How utterly transcendent.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/07/photos/SP_174650_HO_TF7ANGELS_3.jpg

[markalot]

Dude... are you saying four centuries of brutal European colonialism didn't exist BECAUSE it's written about in Wikipedia? which facts do you contest and what are your resources?

Nope, I also never claimed the article was incorrect. I simply posted a disclaimer that you might want to consider when grabbing articles off of wikipedia. I thought I made myself very clear.

I'm well aware France started Viet Nam. I hate France, I hate what they stand for, I believe the French are located in the dictionary under hypocrite. I also would like to bomb Quebec because they like to speak French, but that's another topic. ;)

The subject you raised, however, was reparations. I asked how far back does 'one' go. It seems to me, if you're honest about it, you either have to go back ALL the way or drop it and move forward.

[markalot]

Damn, you quoted me before I could put the C in sience. Bitch. :p

[weeone]

I also would like to bomb Quebec because they like to speak French, but that's another topic. ;)
Their speaking French is akin to our speaking English. Which language do you suggest they speak ? What exactly are your thoughts of Cajun culture in Louisianna ? The French colonized North America for similar reasons the English colonized North America. Whether you like it or not.

and yes, I have the quickest quoting finger in the west, bitch. :D

Of course, lots of my misspellings have been nabbed too. It happens.

[akip]

I hate France, I hate what they stand for, I believe the French are located in the dictionary under hypocrite. I also would like to bomb Quebec because they like to speak French, but that's another topic. ;)



perhaps you ought to consider seeing a professional, work out some of your hostility issues? maybe your mother forced you to eat camenbert when you were young, or you were compelled to sing alouette too many times in catholic school? 'cause it's all beginning to sound terribly personal. :p

[justa bill]

The subject you raised, however, was reparations. I asked how far back does 'one' go. It seems to me, if you're honest about it, you either have to go back ALL the way or drop it and move forward.

Who was it that brought up Adam and Eve? not sure, but no, no one (not even the UN --rolling eyes) can adress every fucking wrong that's ever taken place in the name of governments or individules.

But there is a lot real capital in Europe that was recently taken from Africa. Africa is a mess for the most part, and much of it is a direct result of how it was treated in for the majority of the 20th century.

How about this: large parts of Africa are making easy "hiding spots" and "traning grounds" for Al Quiedia-ia. (I hope I never know how to spell that word.) The political situations in much of Africa are a direct result of it's recent colonial past. Therefore, those who made tons of money during that recent colonial past should be ponying up tons of money to help stabilize the situation.

There are lots of difficult reads on the subject... here's one for the a more 'entertaining' ones. Pagan Babies by Elmore Leonard (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060008776/103-2586447-8508644?v=glance)

--edited to add "recent". mispellings left.

[BigSugar]

So yeah, what France is seeing right now, just may be a screaming, kicking, flaming incarnation of Karma. just maybe...

you're a fan of Carson Daly too!??

[akip]

was just walking the dog in the rain, thinking about this. the french were absolute beasts in haiti. but they got their asses kicked there in kind, atrocity-wise. thousands were slaughtered during the uprising and the rest who hadn't gotten out of the country were executed in the end---it took months to hang em all. they paid the price there.

they definitely were awful as colonials. but they have a fantastically rich culture of which they are enormously, and rightfully, proud. unfortunately, they've gotten more and more rigid about it of late. i hope this crisis is a reckoning from which they'll emerge as a more creative force again.

[markalot]

Who was it that brought up Adam and Eve? not sure, but no, no one (not even the UN --rolling eyes) can adress every fucking wrong that's ever taken place in the name of governments or individules.

But there is a lot real capital in Europe that was recently taken from Africa. Africa is a mess for the most part, and much of it is a direct result of how it was treated in for the majority of the 20th century.

How about this: large parts of Africa are making easy "hiding spots" and "traning grounds" for Al Quiedia-ia. (I hope I never know how to spell that word.) The political situations in much of Africa are a direct result of it's recent colonial past. Therefore, those who made tons of money during that recent colonial past should be ponying up tons of money to help stabilize the situation.

There are lots of difficult reads on the subject... here's one for the a more 'entertaining' ones. Pagan Babies by Elmore Leonard (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060008776/103-2586447-8508644?v=glance)

--edited to add "recent". mispellings left.

Everything is real capital. Without the land there are no buildings. Without the old buildings there is not tourism industry. What I want to hear is a logical explanation of why some activities deserve reparations while others don't. What time scale do we use? What is recent? Do we identify events as being 'known' to be wrong at the time and go with that?

The middle east is a prime example of what happens when you don't move forward. Ask the turks.

[justa bill]

you're a fan of Carson Daly too!??
:D didn't you see post #98... Carson is so wise (http://www.woxy.com/boards/showpost.php?p=699404&postcount=98)

---
and Markalot, I haven't read the E.U. charter... but I'd wager that in an Agreement of that magnitude, there are terms which reference the Agreed Party's definitions of soverignty and the borders within which that soverignty is inforced. And in 1952 Algeria was very much a part of the Fourth Republic.

Me thinks that it's not a stretch. Me thinks that it makes it relevant. Me thinks that if "one" is in an ongoing legal relationship (the E.U.) with other sovereign counties the terms of that ongoing legal relationship could be admissable and should be concidered as a reason to address some current situations.

Oh yeah, and for Spain, 'karma' was probably spelled f.r.a.n.c.o. :[

[weeone]

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b259/ouione/06.jpg

[Homsar]

I have never, never seen a one-legged weatherwoman.

[weeone]

This is why you are on MY team.

[Homsar]

Wow, you picked ME?
Oh wait, I'm last.
Damn it.

[jd1]

I take issue with Bill's premise that colonialism is what funded the economic growth in Europe. Current thinking is that the colonies were actually a net drain on finances, in that you had to station troops there, etc. A few smart speculators could get rich in the colonies, but the government as a whole lost money.

Many European countries never had any colonies, yet they too are full of magestic old cities with spectacular wealth & architecture (Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Poland). It's not like Italy is prosperous today because of their activities in Abyssinia.

In fact, most of the wealth in 19th-century Europe was fueled by the industrial revolution right at home. The emergence of modern industrial society was accompanied by the emergence of modern forms of government with effective bureaucracies that could skim off a percentage of that money as taxes and use it for public works. The colonies supplied luxury items and a few raw materials, but did little more than supplement what was going on anyway.

Saying that Paris is only wealthy because they looted from Africa is Cold War-era Soviet propaganda that has been pretty thoroughly discredited. And while it is true that many countries simply abandoned their former colonies with little or no support on short notice (Belgium), most of the third world's current problems can be safely placed on today's corrupt dictators and tribal/clan feuding rather than on long-dead European diplomats from 100 years ago.

Of course, if you're Robert Mugabe or Bashar Al-Assad it's always going to be easier to blame someone else for your country's problems than admit to the fact that you're a corrupt thug who can only look out for yourself. It's just a damn shame so many people are ready to buy into this line of crap.

--JD

[akip]

i talked briefly about this with a very smart italian count last night. he said, in a nutshell, in italy they are too crazy to be exclusive like the french. he thinks the french must basically loosen up and make concessions that they've been unwilling to make.

it's interesting to note that france has NO affirmative action---a frenchman of north african or african descent has 1/10th the chance of getting the same job as one of european background.

take note, you control freak right-wingers. :p

[justa bill]

hey 'JD', if you want to use your real name in a discussion, feel free to share it. Till then I'll call you 'jd1' and you can call me ''justa bill'.

1. It's interesting that you take a premise to its extreme margins and then criticize the extreme margins as a means to discredit the original premise. "Saying that Paris is only wealthy because they looted from Africa is Cold War-era Soviet propaganda that has been pretty thoroughly discredited."

I never said Paris is only wealthy because they looted from Africa. I did mention the extream example of Madrid, which at the beginning of Ferdinand and Isabella's reign was a back water trading post built by the Moors centuries earlier. Something else began with the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella: Spanish colonialism and extraction of wealth in the 'New World'.

Spain actually TOOK mountains of gold from the Aztecs and the Incas. :[ (Ironically, much of that gold ended up in Belgium via the 'Spanish Road' which ran through the Switzerland to avoid France whom Spain was pretty much always at war with.)

I did say that the current conditions of France are in stark contrast with the conditions of it's former colonies.

2. "Corrent thinking..." Who's current thinking is this? Site some sources, if you would. I'll except Wikipedia.

3. "Europe" ain't as old as you appairently think it is. Most significant European cities in 1000 A.D. where dark and cluttered, comprised of mostly small buildings and perhaps had the beginning of a Cathedrial in them. Four hundred years later, most looked the same but with a finished Cathedrial.

Take Paris, since you mentioned that. (The intire map of which this detail (http://www.paris.org/Monuments/NDame/gifs/turgot-iledelacite.gif) is a part of is on a wall downstairs in the kitchen right now... it's 5 feet x 8 feet.) List the buildings in Paris which predates the 19th century... there's Notre Dame, the wonderful little Sainte-Chapelle and few others. Paris was a BIG city, but even in the early 19th century most of it was in 'third world' conditions.

But most of 'old' Paris was razed and rebuilt beginning in the 1850's. Napolian's "mayor" of Paris, Haussman, is responsible for all of those glorious tree lined streets that the Impressionists painted a little later. Ironically, Haussman did this for the most part to create a "riot proof" city. :/

a source (from the British Library): http://www.mapforum.com/15/blmap.htm

4. I never said--and never will--that the ONLY reason many European countries are rich is because of colonialism. I also never said that the ONLY reason most African countries are less than dirt poor is because of colonialism. (Although I think that second argument could be made.)

But the development of colonial empires is in fact vary much tied to the development of the countries that took part in colonialism. It is inaccurate to only blame dictators whom filled gaping holes in power for the conditions in Africa.
i could go on, but have to run now. that was an interesting end to breakfast... :]

[george]

It's all Tupac's fault:

November 10, 2005
Op-Ed Columnist

Gangsta, in French (www.nytimes.com)

By DAVID BROOKS

After 9/11, everyone knew there was going to be a debate about the future of Islam. We just didn't know the debate would be between Osama bin Laden and Tupac Shakur.

Yet those seem to be the lifestyle alternatives that are really on offer for poor young Muslim men in places like France, Britain and maybe even the world beyond. A few highly alienated and fanatical young men commit themselves to the radical Islam of bin Laden. But most find their self-respect by embracing the poses and worldview of American hip-hop and gangsta rap.

One of the striking things about the scenes from France is how thoroughly the rioters have assimilated hip-hop and rap culture. It's not only that they use the same hand gestures as American rappers, wear the same clothes and necklaces, play the same video games, and sit with the same sorts of car stereos at full blast. It's that they seem to have adopted the same poses of exaggerated manhood, the same attitudes about women, money and the police. They seem to have replicated the same sort of gang culture, the same romantic visions of gunslinging drug dealers.

In a globalized age it's perhaps inevitable that the culture of resistance gets globalized, too. What we are seeing is what Mark Lilla of the University of Chicago calls a universal culture of the wretched of the earth. The images, modes and attitudes of hip-hop and gangsta rap are so powerful they are having a hegemonic effect across the globe.

American ghetto life, at least as portrayed in rap videos, now defines for the young, poor and disaffected what it means to be oppressed. Gangsta resistance is the most compelling model for how to rebel against that oppression. If you want to stand up and fight The Man, the Notorious B.I.G. shows the way.

This is a reminder that for all the talk about American cultural hegemony, American countercultural hegemony has always been more powerful. America's rebellious countercultural heroes exert more influence around the world than the clean establishment images from Disney and McDonald's. This is our final insult to the anti-Americans; we define how to be anti-American, and the foreigners who attack us are reduced to borrowing our own clichés.

When rap first came to France, American rappers dominated the scene, but now the suburban immigrant neighborhoods have produced their own stars in their own language. French rap lyrics today are like the American gangsta lyrics of about five or 10 years ago, when it was more common to fantasize about cop killings and gang rape.

Most of the lyrics can't be reprinted in this newspaper, but you can get a sense of them from, say, a snippet from a song from Bitter Ministry: "Another woman takes her beating./This time she's called Brigitte./She's the wife of a cop. " Or this from Mr. R's celebrated album "PolitiKment IncorreKt": "France is a bitch. ... Don't forget to [deleted] her to exhaustion. You have to treat her like a whore, man! ... My niggers and my Arabs, our playground is the street with the most guns!"

The French gangsta pose is familiar. It is built around the image of the strong, violent hypermacho male, who loudly asserts his dominance and demands respect. The gangsta is a brave, countercultural criminal. He has nothing but rage for the institutions of society: the state and the schools. He shows his own cruel strength by dominating women. It is perhaps no accident that until the riots, the biggest story coming out of these neighborhoods was the rise of astonishing and horrific gang rapes.

In other words, what we are seeing in France will be familiar to anyone who watched gangsta culture rise in this country. You take a population of young men who are oppressed by racism and who face limited opportunities, and you present them with a culture that encourages them to become exactly the sort of people the bigots think they are - and you call this proud self-assertion and empowerment. You take men who are already suspected by the police because of their color, and you romanticize and encourage criminality so they will be really despised and mistreated. You tell them to defy oppression by embracing self-destruction.

In America, at least, gangsta rap is sort of a game. The gangsta fan ends up in college or law school. But in France, the barriers to ascent are higher. The prejudice is more impermeable, and the labor markets are more rigid. There really is no escape.

[akip]

It's all Tupac's fault:

November 10, 2005
Op-Ed Columnist

Gangsta, in French (www.nytimes.com)

By DAVID BROOKS

After 9/11, everyone knew there was going to be a debate about the future of Islam. We just didn't know the debate would be between Osama bin Laden and Tupac Shakur.

Yet those seem to be the lifestyle alternatives that are really on offer for poor young Muslim men in places like France, Britain and maybe even the world beyond. A few highly alienated and fanatical young men commit themselves to the radical Islam of bin Laden. But most find their self-respect by embracing the poses and worldview of American hip-hop and gangsta rap.

One of the striking things about the scenes from France is how thoroughly the rioters have assimilated hip-hop and rap culture. It's not only that they use the same hand gestures as American rappers, wear the same clothes and necklaces, play the same video games, and sit with the same sorts of car stereos at full blast. It's that they seem to have adopted the same poses of exaggerated manhood, the same attitudes about women, money and the police. They seem to have replicated the same sort of gang culture, the same romantic visions of gunslinging drug dealers.

In a globalized age it's perhaps inevitable that the culture of resistance gets globalized, too. What we are seeing is what Mark Lilla of the University of Chicago calls a universal culture of the wretched of the earth. The images, modes and attitudes of hip-hop and gangsta rap are so powerful they are having a hegemonic effect across the globe.

American ghetto life, at least as portrayed in rap videos, now defines for the young, poor and disaffected what it means to be oppressed. Gangsta resistance is the most compelling model for how to rebel against that oppression. If you want to stand up and fight The Man, the Notorious B.I.G. shows the way.

This is a reminder that for all the talk about American cultural hegemony, American countercultural hegemony has always been more powerful. America's rebellious countercultural heroes exert more influence around the world than the clean establishment images from Disney and McDonald's. This is our final insult to the anti-Americans; we define how to be anti-American, and the foreigners who attack us are reduced to borrowing our own clichés.

When rap first came to France, American rappers dominated the scene, but now the suburban immigrant neighborhoods have produced their own stars in their own language. French rap lyrics today are like the American gangsta lyrics of about five or 10 years ago, when it was more common to fantasize about cop killings and gang rape.

Most of the lyrics can't be reprinted in this newspaper, but you can get a sense of them from, say, a snippet from a song from Bitter Ministry: "Another woman takes her beating./This time she's called Brigitte./She's the wife of a cop. " Or this from Mr. R's celebrated album "PolitiKment IncorreKt": "France is a bitch. ... Don't forget to [deleted] her to exhaustion. You have to treat her like a whore, man! ... My niggers and my Arabs, our playground is the street with the most guns!"

The French gangsta pose is familiar. It is built around the image of the strong, violent hypermacho male, who loudly asserts his dominance and demands respect. The gangsta is a brave, countercultural criminal. He has nothing but rage for the institutions of society: the state and the schools. He shows his own cruel strength by dominating women. It is perhaps no accident that until the riots, the biggest story coming out of these neighborhoods was the rise of astonishing and horrific gang rapes.

In other words, what we are seeing in France will be familiar to anyone who watched gangsta culture rise in this country. You take a population of young men who are oppressed by racism and who face limited opportunities, and you present them with a culture that encourages them to become exactly the sort of people the bigots think they are - and you call this proud self-assertion and empowerment. You take men who are already suspected by the police because of their color, and you romanticize and encourage criminality so they will be really despised and mistreated. You tell them to defy oppression by embracing self-destruction.

In America, at least, gangsta rap is sort of a game. The gangsta fan ends up in college or law school. But in France, the barriers to ascent are higher. The prejudice is more impermeable, and the labor markets are more rigid. There really is no escape.


by david brooks, who seems to think it's sorta okay in america, but definitely not in france. :confused:

[justa bill]

you know, part of the reason i was so fucking surprised that it took a week to hear about this on the 'news' is that between NPR and PBS i'd heard all about something as 'obscure' as Liberia's presidential election. it pitted a recently-retired 'soccer' star [a soccer god some would say] versus an elderly lady...

oh for choises like that in the U.S. ...here, we get "Havard vs. Yale" or "Yale 65 vs. Yale 67"... ;)

anyway, the 'iron lady' won. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4421866.stm

...notice the turn out. :/

Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf, known as the "Iron Lady", has claimed victory as the first woman to be elected president of Liberia - or anywhere in Africa.
With 90% of ballots counted, she had won 59% of the vote to leave her main rival, George Weah, trailing on 41%.

She told the BBC she hoped Mr Weah would join her new government after "getting over his disappointment".

But Mr Weah, who has alleged fraud, has said she shouldn't claim victory while his complaint is being investigated.

Observers declared the vote "peaceful and transparent".

"I think the results are very clear: that the Liberian people have chosen and I am humbled by the fact that they have elected me to lead the effort of reconciliation and development," Mrs Johnson-Sirleaf told the BBC's World Today programme.

She told Reuters news agency she hoped her win in the second and final round of the election would "raise the participation of women not just in Liberia but also in Africa".

Electoral authorities have not yet officially declared a winner in the country's first presidential election after 14 years of civil war, and the United Nations peacekeeping force has put extra troops on the streets in case of unrest.

'See reason'

A senior diplomat following the election closely said he thought there had been some irregularities, but that these would not influence the final outcome.


PARTIAL RESULTS

Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf: 59.2%
George Weah: 40.8%
Turnout: 60.9%
From 88.6% of polling stations
Source: NEC

Mr Weah accuses election commission officials of illegally casting ballots in favour of Mrs Johnson-Sirleaf.

The allegation is being investigated and some of his supporters are extremely angry, saying they have been cheated, the BBC's Mark Doyle reports from Monrovia.

Some of his supporters have held small protests, chanting "No George, no peace".

But the head of the Economic Community of West African State (Ecowas) observer mission, E M Debrah, said the preliminary conclusion was that the election had been "generally peaceful, free, fair and transparent".

Mrs Johnson-Sirleaf said she hoped Mr Weah would "see reason" and accept the result, and added she was ready to offer him a place in her government.

Contrasts

Many of Liberia's 100,000 ex-combatants from all factions in the war backed Mr Weah in the election.

But the former AC Milan and Chelsea star urged his supporters "to remain calm for the sake of peace" until investigations into the alleged fraud were completed.



Guide to Liberia and its recent turbulent history

At-a-glance

Mr Weah showed ballot papers to journalists, which he said had been pre-marked for Mrs Johnson-Sirleaf and given to election officials to cast.

"The world is saying this election was free and fair, which was not true," he said at a news conference.

Liberians have been glued to their radios, listening to initial preliminary results coming in from individual polling stations.

Mr Weah is the best-known Liberian in the world and came top in the first round of voting, with 28% of ballots cast.

Our correspondent says as a political candidate his feel-good factor is immense but his opponents say he is young, inexperienced and surrounded by political opportunists.

They say Mrs Johnson-Sirleaf, 67, a former World Bank economist, is better qualified for the job.

The "Iron Lady" received 20% of the vote in the first round and is popular with women and the educated elite.

[Rafe]

It's all Tupac's fault:

November 10, 2005
Op-Ed Columnist

Gangsta, in French (www.nytimes.com)

By DAVID BROOKS

After 9/11, everyone knew there was going to be a debate about the future of Islam. We just didn't know the debate would be between Osama bin Laden and Tupac Shakur.

Yet those seem to be the lifestyle alternatives that are really on offer for poor young Muslim men in places like France, Britain and maybe even the world beyond. A few highly alienated and fanatical young men commit themselves to the radical Islam of bin Laden. But most find their self-respect by embracing the poses and worldview of American hip-hop and gangsta rap.

One of the striking things about the scenes from France is how thoroughly the rioters have assimilated hip-hop and rap culture. It's not only that they use the same hand gestures as American rappers, wear the same clothes and necklaces, play the same video games, and sit with the same sorts of car stereos at full blast. It's that they seem to have adopted the same poses of exaggerated manhood, the same attitudes about women, money and the police. They seem to have replicated the same sort of gang culture, the same romantic visions of gunslinging drug dealers.

In a globalized age it's perhaps inevitable that the culture of resistance gets globalized, too. What we are seeing is what Mark Lilla of the University of Chicago calls a universal culture of the wretched of the earth. The images, modes and attitudes of hip-hop and gangsta rap are so powerful they are having a hegemonic effect across the globe.

American ghetto life, at least as portrayed in rap videos, now defines for the young, poor and disaffected what it means to be oppressed. Gangsta resistance is the most compelling model for how to rebel against that oppression. If you want to stand up and fight The Man, the Notorious B.I.G. shows the way.

This is a reminder that for all the talk about American cultural hegemony, American countercultural hegemony has always been more powerful. America's rebellious countercultural heroes exert more influence around the world than the clean establishment images from Disney and McDonald's. This is our final insult to the anti-Americans; we define how to be anti-American, and the foreigners who attack us are reduced to borrowing our own clichés.

When rap first came to France, American rappers dominated the scene, but now the suburban immigrant neighborhoods have produced their own stars in their own language. French rap lyrics today are like the American gangsta lyrics of about five or 10 years ago, when it was more common to fantasize about cop killings and gang rape.

Most of the lyrics can't be reprinted in this newspaper, but you can get a sense of them from, say, a snippet from a song from Bitter Ministry: "Another woman takes her beating./This time she's called Brigitte./She's the wife of a cop. " Or this from Mr. R's celebrated album "PolitiKment IncorreKt": "France is a bitch. ... Don't forget to [deleted] her to exhaustion. You have to treat her like a whore, man! ... My niggers and my Arabs, our playground is the street with the most guns!"

The French gangsta pose is familiar. It is built around the image of the strong, violent hypermacho male, who loudly asserts his dominance and demands respect. The gangsta is a brave, countercultural criminal. He has nothing but rage for the institutions of society: the state and the schools. He shows his own cruel strength by dominating women. It is perhaps no accident that until the riots, the biggest story coming out of these neighborhoods was the rise of astonishing and horrific gang rapes.

In other words, what we are seeing in France will be familiar to anyone who watched gangsta culture rise in this country. You take a population of young men who are oppressed by racism and who face limited opportunities, and you present them with a culture that encourages them to become exactly the sort of people the bigots think they are - and you call this proud self-assertion and empowerment. You take men who are already suspected by the police because of their color, and you romanticize and encourage criminality so they will be really despised and mistreated. You tell them to defy oppression by embracing self-destruction.

In America, at least, gangsta rap is sort of a game. The gangsta fan ends up in college or law school. But in France, the barriers to ascent are higher. The prejudice is more impermeable, and the labor markets are more rigid. There really is no escape. Naive and inaccurate piece.

[akip]

Naive and inaccurate piece.

brooks is clearly out of his element.

[Rafe]

brooks is clearly out of his element. Yes. French Hip Hop is far superior to it's US cousin. The man is clearly a nincompoop.

[Orville Wrong]

it's interesting to note that france has NO affirmative action---a frenchman of north african or african descent has 1/10th the chance of getting the same job as one of european background.

take note, you control freak right-wingers. :p
1. Strict. Race-based. Quota. Yeah, I freak when confronted with such controls. Guilty as charged. :p

2. Lack of affirmative action is not the French problem, an economy wrecked by stifling regulation is. Companies don't hire because: a) they can't fire. b) labor regulation and reporting is so fraught with red tape that its cost in man/hours outweighs the potential to produce revenue with a new employee.

[akip]

1. Strict. Race-based. Quota. Yeah, I freak when confronted with such controls. Guilty as charged. :p

2. Lack of affirmative action is not the French problem, an economy wrecked by stifling regulation is. Companies don't hire because: a) they can't fire. b) labor regulation and reporting is so fraught with red tape that its cost in man/hours outweighs the potential to produce revenue with a new employee.

orvie, ya freak, you're back!

the french have more than one problem, yessirreee.

but rafe is right. what does this man

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/c/c4/David_Brooks.jpg

know about hip hop?

[markalot]

This whole ordeal is turning into a good lesson on what's right with our government.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051114/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting_fr1

Though the unrest is abating, the bill, if approved by parliament as expected, would allow a 12-day state of emergency to be prolonged until mid-February if needed. The emergency measures empower regions to impose curfews on minors, conduct house searches and take other steps to prevent unrest.

"It is a measure of protection and precaution,"
President Jacques Chirac said.

Chirac stressed that the measure was "temporary" and that regional officials would use it "only where it is strictly necessary." About 40 French towns, including France's third-largest city, Lyon, have used the measure to put curfews for minors into effect.

I trust Chirac, don't you?

[justa bill]

This whole ordeal is turning into a good lesson on what's right with our government.

ya know, it's been an interesting year...

the first half of the year there was a lot of talk about how Bush/the govenment was overstepping its boundaries with the Patriot Act-- because, you know, the FBI was suddenly allowed to go and check out your library records... 'oh man, my library records?!'

then Katrina happened... suddenly Bush/the government was "useless" because he/it wasn't "sending in the troops" in order to keep a few people from causing problems and shooting at helicopters. (and most of those really seriouse problems--like 'shooting at helicopters' or 'hundreds of murders in the Super Dome' were later discovered to be untrue, right...)

(and isn't it amazing how the racist paranoid media sees a stadium with only black people in it and assumes it must be complete anarchy in there... "murders, rapes, more murders. who left all these black people here alone?!")

now, we've got serious battles happening in a major European capital and it's "under-reported" to say the least... Think about it--the worst "riots" to happen in the U.S.A. in recent years happened right here on my street. Trust me: THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING COMPAIRED TO WHAT IS STILL GOING ON IN FRANCE. and yet, they were all over the national and international news the moment they happened.

Last night on NPR, they had maybe a 30 second story about the nation-wide riots in france... 'well', they said, 'the problems are basically settled, only 230 cars were burned last night.' WHAT? Only 230 cars?

France has imposed and extended a nation-wide curfew system. Can you imagine Bush or any other American President even SUGGESTING such a thing?! Really. Bush/the government didn't send troops to New Orleans because the U.S. Federal Government doesn't do that. States to that kind of thing. Doubt me? Four years ago, I had Ohio State Troopers patroling my streets.

I'm not the biggest Bush fan. Don't know if I'm a little-bit of a Bush fan even, but I am so sick of seeing news stories start out with a handful of protesters in whatever country Bush is visiting. How does that help us? How does that inform us? There are people that will protest anything. How about telling me about the meetings before you tell me there are people protesting them?

I've got Markalot's back on this one. :mad:

[justa bill]

...with their sirens on.

*sips cappucino at sidewalk cafe and looks over sholder at passing sirens* "I hope no one is hurt." :]

[Spoon4613]

cue: Kaiser Cheifs - I predict a riot :p

[markalot]

Ahh, the French, so progressive ...

France Weighs Immigration Controls After Riots

By Molly Moore
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, November 30, 2005; Page A14

PARIS, Nov. 29 -- The French government Tuesday proposed tightening immigration controls to make it more difficult for foreign students and foreign-born relatives of French residents to enter the country. The plan was fueled by concern over unrest in immigrant neighborhoods, the scene recently of three weeks of street violence.

At the same time, the lower house of Parliament overwhelmingly approved new anti-terrorism laws that would allow increased video surveillance in public places and tougher monitoring of international travel by French citizens.

Both moves are part of government efforts to impose tougher restrictions on immigration and personal freedoms in a time of heightened anxieties over perceived threats from abroad and at home.

Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy told Parliament on Tuesday that France did not want "those people that nobody else in the world wants." He added, "We want selective immigration."

Sarkozy, a leading contender for the French presidency in 2007, enraged residents of the country's poorest communities when he called rioting youths "scum" and "rabble" and suggested that some crime-ridden, impoverished neighborhoods should be cleaned out with a "pressure hose."

More than 200 public buildings and 10,000 cars were burned nationwide in rioting that erupted on Oct. 27, the worst violence in France in nearly four decades.

French politicians have split their responses between calling for improvements in the living conditions in those neighborhoods, populated mainly by immigrants and their French-born offspring, and blaming the residents there for bringing social problems on themselves by refusing to integrate into French society.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin, who proposed the new immigration laws, said Tuesday that "integration into our society, notably command of the French language, should be a condition for bringing in one's family." He also said that French authorities should "uphold the law forbidding polygamy in France."

Several French political leaders have linked polygamy with the violence that struck more than 300 communities across France. Large families with multiple wives and numerous children foster poverty and lack of parental control over youths, the politicians said.

Polygamy is illegal in France, but the law has not been enforced among African and Arab immigrants who have imported the practice from their home countries.

The government's proposed law, which Villepin said would be submitted to Parliament next year, would make it more difficult for French residents and citizens to bring foreign spouses into the country and require longer waiting periods for legal immigrants to apply for visas for their spouses and children. Legal immigrants would be required to be able to speak French before family members could join them in France.

The new anti-terrorism measure, strengthening laws that are already among the toughest in Europe, passed the lower house 373 to 27. "We must give greater powers to law enforcement to avoid a catastrophe," Sarkozy told the National Assembly. The bill now goes to the Senate, where analysts predict it will pass, probably next year.

The bill was prompted by bombings on the transit systems in London this year and Madrid last year that killed a total of 247 people. French law enforcement officials warn that France faces a serious risk of attack by Islamic radicals.

Under the draft law, certain buildings, including department stores, mosques and synagogues, could be equipped with surveillance cameras. Aides to Sarkozy say he embraced the measure after seeing how effective video recordings had been in helping British authorities identify the subway bombers.

Also Tuesday, the French prosecutor's office said anti-terrorism police arrested six suspected Islamic radicals, including a prison officer and a prison chaplain, in Brittany and western and central France, the Reuters news agency reported.

Correspondent John Ward Anderson contributed to this report.

[justa bill]

Wow. Riots again, but this time not in the suburbs... this time in the 'pretty' parts. I haven't seen a count of the number of cars burned this time, but they said a McDonalds got trashed... :confused:

Students mostly are protesting a new change in their laws that would allow employers to 'fire' employees who have been on the job for less than two years. This change was brought on, in part, as an attempt to make it easier to hire people... other wise, you hire someone as a cashier for fast food, and you've hired them for life basically.

The idea was to reduce unemployment among minorities...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11881566/

[markalot]

“This contract just means two years of anxiety,” said Mohammed, 20, between kicks of a soccer ball Thursday at a Clichy-sous-Bois shopping center. “Villepin is lying when he says it’s for us.”

LOL,

so the lazy asses with their guarenteed jobs are worried now? France has a bunch of crazy labor laws.

[markalot]

Not this time. The kids rioting HAVE jobs, the kids without jobs are staying at home. It's that crazy.

edit: well I guess it's not clear one way or the other, just that white students are rioting.

[markalot]

Ok, just did some reading.

Allowing companies to fire people for no reason in the first two years of employment - you would never keep a job over two years. Thats stupid.

In fact, the only reason companies don't do this in the U.S. with our "at will" employment laws is the threat of lawsuit.

I'd be rioting too.

I believe you can sue in France too, not sure, but having guarenteed jobs never works, too many take advantage of it.

[yoshomon]

Just read this interesting article...

Paris Match – a spectator’s irrelevant comments from the sidelines

First, let’s take a moment to remember Haussman. The French state planned the layout of its capital city assuming the inevitability of street fighting. The landscape is tilted in the state’s favour and so the street is not denied to revolutionaries, on the contrary, the ‘people’ are almost invited to stage their ‘manifestations’. Whereas in the UK ‘rioting’ is seen as an unforeseen event and policed as an ‘aberration’, the French tend to view ‘the street’ as an irreducible cost borne by its national process.

Here are a number of preliminary comments on the nature and function of French street politics so as to better investigate what we might call popular insurgent forms.

All that is included:

1. The dominant culture in France likes to portray itself as a domain of ideas. The advantage of this is that all positions tend towards expressing themselves as ‘ideas’ because there is a vast and grandiose arena for them to do so. Radical ideas are much more prevalent on French national tv and radio than on their equivalents in the UK and the US. The anarchist federation for example takes advantage of the state guarantee for the distribution of ideas; Le Monde Libetaire is found in every newsagents across the country because of this guarantee. It is also officially sanctioned for the AF to participate in debates on political ideas before students in schools and universities.

2. There is still a predominant ‘popular front’ mentality within radical positions, and all left positions tend towards agreement on issues and are prepared to mobilise together... this gradation extends into the state and official bodies.

3. Demonstrating, occupations, even rioting, is generally viewed as an element of political and cultural reproduction. There is an established model, it is ‘68’ and because the French state easily survived those ‘evenements’ it is now able to strategically gauge all subsequent occurrences, the national media also compares and then dismisses events as being ‘not 68’. The state apparatus therefore, and unlike in the uk, has a very wide margin of comfort and with studied savoir-faire is able to merely raise its eyebrows at even extreme conflagrations.

4. This modelling on ‘68 has become a curse; the ‘not-68’ element of protests is reproduced at every bar and dining table across the land. Every other year there are major street ‘events’ – it has become a culture. ‘68 has replaced ‘I was in the resistance’ as a measure of le coq gaulois. And if nothing lives up to the big one at least everyone is able to casually drop into their conversation over ‘aperitifs’ how they ‘participated’ in ‘78, ‘88, ‘98 – they too, all of them, because they were ‘there’ are authentically of the French left. Now, it is 2006, and in the photographs here is the girl on her boyfriend’s shoulders, she is punching the air. Here is the girl with ‘non’ scrawled on her face. Here are the serious young men in the lecture room passing resolutions in palestinian scarves. In short, here is the ‘manifestation’.

5. If idea driven events have their place, the Haussmanised streets, then they also have their temporality. The state knows exactly how long demonstrations and rioting last... it has its stopclock running – on your marks, get set, go: first there is the cause, then there is the outbreak, followed by the wildfire, then there is the street fighting, then there is the consolidation and the mass mobilisation, then there is the defiance and ‘movement for continuation’, then there is the full-stop mass demonstration, then the melting away to other matters. In all, the fever takes about two weeks to pass.

6. Certain sections of the state, ie the unions, will be weakened by employment deregulation... on the other hand if these measures are passed there will be advantages for workers (which is the reason so many Europeans come to the UK to work). Casualisation cuts both ways, it undoes the state power of unions, and removes the ‘left’ interest from social management but it also increases unpredictability in the economy. When there are no brakes a social crisis can rapidly escalate.


Escalation, and what exceeds the boundary:

1. There is something unreal about issue based ‘protest’, an element that refuses escalation. However, it is hardly the students’ fault that their impeccable behaviour, their honed gestures, have been anticipated and contained, perhaps even condoned, by the old foxes of the establishment. In truth, there are few other options open to them as a social sector, they have no special leverage on the economic mechanism. Accessible radical forms and their effects are set by conditions and that’s it – there is nothing to be done to overcome these limitations of form, and after all it is not for participants to decide the impact of the measures they have taken. Students, even whilst rioting and occupying, do not cause major upset to the running of the state. Perhaps their impact would be much greater in the UK than in France (see my co-authored leaflet http://www.geocities.com/kk_abacus/ioaa/prolgob1.html on the uk fuel blockades); on the other hand, the UK state does not facilitate popular manifestations so spontaneous mass eruptions are inevitably less frequent anyway.

2. Nevertheless, it is important to explore the question of what might prove excessive, and what measures might cause escalation. Evidently, the spread of protest to industrial production is the most certain means of causing genuine crisis within the relation of production. It is interesting to note why this spread into other sectors does not often occur... perhaps precisely because protest is manifested in those sections of society whose protesting has the least impact on society and contrariwise, protest rarely occurs within those sectors that would have most impact. The swedish communist group riff-raff talk of the ‘cynical subject’, that is of the capitalised/anthropologised human beings who already have consciousness of their situation but see no way past it. The cynical subject in fact, is in advance of the consciousness that the left wants to bestow upon it, unlike the left it can ‘see’ the process, and that there is nothing to be won. The cynical subject will not ‘participate’ because its participation is decisive, it will not participate until forced by its own circumstances. That is how it should be.

3. Related to this, riff-raff also use ‘the apocalypse fanatic’ Oswald Spengler’s divergent concept of ‘spiritual communities’ and ‘cosmic entities’. For riff-raff, a spiritual community is a protest movement which aims to participate in the present as fully as possible, ‘they spread and grow’ within existing conditions by drawing as many people to themselves as they can but never grow out of the conditions which created them. The cosmic entities by contrast mark genuine events and shifts in the productive relation, they have that aura which speaks of new possibility, they are caused when humanity is presented with the opportunity for a ‘new relation to the world (cosmos)’. If 68 was a cosmic entity (and who knows now whether it was or wasn’t) then the facsimiles of ‘68 are decidedly mere ‘spiritual communities.’

4. Thus a radical transformation of the protest dynamic would depend upon (i) the participation of other sectors of society (most importantly industrial workers); (ii) the distribution of protest from out of its Haussmanised geography; (iii) the extension of protest’s ‘temporality’ beyond the two week/month fever. Most importantly however the uprising must cross the cultural boundary and leave behind it the terrain of political campaign issues and enter instead the intimate and troubling matter of being able to directly articulate alienation and thus formulate demands to address this. In short, protest will be escalated when it engages the participation of capitalist society’s ‘cynical subject’.

I shake you hand,

pilpil

[george]

French Take to the Streets to Preserve Their Economic Fantasy (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/21/AR2006032101741.html)

By Steven Pearlstein
Wednesday, March 22, 2006; D01

Ah, springtime in Paris.

The sight of riot police outside the Sorbonne.

The smell of tear gas wafting along the Seine.

The sweet sounds of hypocrisy floating from the National Assembly and the Elysee Palace.

And, next Tuesday, a national strike, perfectly timed to create a four-day weekend.

What inspired this season's revolutionary festivities is a radical new law that would give employers up to two years before deciding whether to give new young employees the kind of lifetime job security conferred by French law.

To those of you brainwashed by Anglo-American market capitalism, this might appear like the sort of labor market flexibility they babble on about at meetings like this week's European summit -- the kind that might actually entice a French company to create a new job.

But when viewed through the dark prism of the French imagination, these aren't real jobs -- they're "garbage jobs" and "slave contracts" meant to undermine the birthright of all Frenchmen to be shielded from all economic risk. Give in on this, and who knows what could go next? The 35-hour workweek? The six weeks of paid vacation? State-mandated profit sharing? Retirement at age 60?

What's so galling about the French is that, in the name of equality and solidarity, they are well on their way to creating not only one of the least vibrant economies in the industrialized world, but also one of the least equitable.

The "insiders" of this economy consist of a shrinking pool of older, middle-class workers who enjoy the full panoply of worker protections. Most of them are in the public sector or heavily regulated private industries, with the rest in a dwindling number of competitive private firms.

And then there are the "outsiders." This growing pool includes the unemployed young men of the mostly immigrant suburbs who went on a rampage last year, throwing rocks and burning cars. But it also includes the children of "insiders," who tend to hang around the university until they are 24 or 25, then drift between unpaid internships, temp jobs and welfare for another five years before finally getting "inside."

You'd think that, with all that time they spend chatting away in cafes, these young "outsiders" would have figured out by now that this system, which protects and cossets the "insiders" at all costs, is sucking the innovation and vitality from the economy. But rather than supporting the reforms that might generate more jobs and more income, the outsiders have bought into the nostalgic fantasy of a France that once was, but can never be again, making common cause with the very "insiders" whose selfishness and pigheaded socialism have left them out in the cold.

That said, you can hardly blame the kids for being confused about their economic predicament.

After all, the supposedly center-right government that pushed through the new youth-employment contract is the same government that adamantly refused to give up subsidies for farmers, stepped in to prevent foreign takeovers of French companies and, just last week, demanded that Apple iPods accept music downloads from iTunes competitors (read: French competitors). But having declared, in effect, that markets cannot be trusted to generate socially and politically acceptable outcomes, the same government is now shocked to find that it doesn't have much credibility when it asks workers to trust markets when it comes to the terms of their employment.

This sort of calculated hypocrisy among the French political elite, which likes to "talk left, act right," has now completely undermined support for market capitalism. A telling poll released in January by the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland found that only 36 percent of French respondents felt that "the free enterprise system and free market economy" is the best system. That's the lowest response from any of the 22 countries polled and compares with 59 percent in Italy, 65 percent in Germany, 66 percent in Britain and 71 percent in the United States.

Perhaps it's no surprise, then, that Forbes magazine's latest list of global billionaires includes only 14 from France, without a single new entry this year. Germany, a country not twice its size, has four times as many, while Britain, which is about the same size, has 24.

Indeed, when you ask French university students who is the Bill Gates of France, they look at you blankly. It's not simply that they can't name one. The bigger problem is that they can't imagine why it matters, or why that has anything to do with why they can't find a good job.

[weeone]

I have my views on French economy and labor practices that I won't inject because they are difficult to express, as I have a dear friend in Paris who wades through these tides.

But I will say this : racism is a horrible problem in France, and Europe in general... (if you don't believe that, flip on a european soccer match where spectators freely throw bananas and make ape gestures at players of African decent - as one lame example - but I digress)... if this law were set into place, it is highly likely that rightwingers who largely view immigration as a national disease would opt to not hire non-French-decent workers, or hire them and fire them as French-decent workers came into their employment market.

While it's a ball to make fun of the French and their silly views on quality of life - ie not having the same work ethic as Americans - the issue is much deeper than this. The immigrant population is soaring, and their country is having extraordinary difficulties coping, just as the US did and does. Given the geographic location of France, their situation is a lot more sensitive than ours in regards to immigration... I'm afraid of the problems that are going to occur in the future ... it affects the global social climate when these struggles occur, regardless of the country - see WWII.

I just hate to read synging myopic articles like the one george posted - it's much deeper than French attitudes - of which you are free to hate or embrace. But just recognize that a lot of aspects of social freedom and security are at risk right now. It's time for new leadership in France - Villepin and Chirac are at a complete stalemate with the true political climate in France and globally speaking, and it's time for new young leaders to step up and use the system to change it, rather than all these useless and tedious demonstrations. And I don't understand why they won't use the concept of the 35 hour work week to their advantage ... why not adopt a hybrid model where workers are hired in to supplement and mimmick a 40 hour work week ... there are other solutions, I just don't know enough about economy to make any intelligent suggestions.

[euro60]

These are complicated issues, for sure. One thing I have NEVER understood is the Socialists' attitude that you can solve unemployment and get the economy to become healthier, by imposing on people to work LESS. In fact, if people are free to work MORE, that is a good thing for the economy. The socialists simply cannot understand that. They think that if there is a 100hr. project, it's better for the economy if 5 people worked on it for 20 hrs, rather than 2 people work on it for 50 hrs. But that is proven false many times over. Yet they stick to that fantasy, thereby helping to sink their own economy.

As to Weeone's point on racism in Europe: absolutely true. When I see or hear some of the things when I'm over there, I just cannot believe it.

[justa bill]

And now France is basically kicking Apple and iTunes out of their country... :rolleyes:

I love their food, love their wine, love their 'culture', but damn, I think I'll stick with going to French restaurants here in the States... :/

[weeone]

And now France is basically kicking Apple and iTunes out of their country... :rolleyes:

I love their food, love their wine, love their 'culture', but damn, I think I'll stick with going to French restaurants here in the States... :/

Actually, they want more freedom with iTunes - the capability to move files bought from apple to other devices ... Apple is choosing to not sell in France if the legislature that would call for this is passed ...

from gizmodo (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/itunes/france-to-force-apple-to-open-itunes-160445.php)

[justa bill]

Actually, they want more freedom with iTunes - the capability to move files bought from apple to other devices ... Apple is choosing to not sell in France if the legislature that would call for this is passed ...

from gizmodo (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/itunes/france-to-force-apple-to-open-itunes-160445.php)

oh, it's really not just iTunes--it would be across the board for all similar companies/devices, but why would a company want to convert a proprietary system they've spent millions on to what is basically "free ware"?

last i heard, Apple hasn't said anything--much less if they'll stay or leave, but why would they open the door to that world wide? (and it seems to me, any French manorwoman could easily spend their Euros at another Eoupean version of iTunes...)

[justa bill]

I think it would be cool if France did that.

why? i have tons of mp3s on my iPod, but why would anyone want to buy songs at iTunes and use them on the rio or whatever... besides which, you can convert Protected AAC files to mp3s can't you? (never bother trying myself.)

hey, speaking of iTunes... they have 'Trains to Brazil' by the Guillemots for free this week. suck on that, France. :D

[markalot]

I think it would be cool if France did that.

What? Why? My god that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. So a company designs and developes a cool device, creates some great software to go along with it, allows people to download to their device OR copy to a CD, and you want them to open up so they can't make any money on it?

I don't even like apple and don't have a problem with iTunes because it WORKS so well.

[drougan]

why? i have tons of mp3s on my iPod, but why would anyone want to buy songs at iTunes and use them on the rio or whatever... besides which, you can convert Protected AAC files to mp3s can't you? (never bother trying myself.)

hey, speaking of iTunes... they have 'Trains to Brazil' by the Guillemots for free this week. suck on that, France. :D


You can't make the conversion from protected to mp3 or unprotected without burning a cd and then reripping it into MP3, so it's a pain. Though on whole albums you can preserve the track info.

Isnt apple looking to ditch their aac format anyway and go to protected WMA or some shit? So they can sell their stuff to people who want no part of iPod ownership?

At any rate, I read this morning in the Post that the French gov't passed a law making it legal for employers to fire without cause any person under 26 if they've worked their job for less than 2 years, which caused a new round of car burning and such blocks from the Eiffel Tower. Can anyone say "ageism" or "just plain stupid".

France = poor argument for socialism.

[weeone]

What? Why? My god that's the dumbest thing I've ever seen. So a company designs and developes a cool device, creates some great software to go along with it, allows people to download to their device OR copy to a CD, and you want them to open up so they can't make any money on it?

I don't even like apple and don't have a problem with iTunes because it WORKS so well.

It would be one thing if the scissor sisters song I bought from itunes was an itunes product but it isn't. It's a song file I paid for, and I, like most people, think it would be nice to be able to play that file on any device. But Mark explained it like this - he likens it to video game consoles were software companies put out games and make deals with certain platforms so that their game is only compatible with that platform. Kids seem less pissed about this - though it's KIND OF the same thing, in a little bitty way.

The fact is, this is what I (and the French) would like to think is happening : I am buying a scissor sisters song. What is actually happening : I am buying a file from Apple that happens to be a scissor sisters song when read by the software intended to read that file. If I want to listen to my scissor sisters songs on other platforms, I have to have a platform that supports that file type - it just so happens that the most versatile file type would be your run of the mill mp3- generally procured by buying the cd and ripping it or emailing friends and pleading with them to share so I can decide whether or not I'm going to buy it. *deep breath for air* Anyhow, point is, I think Apple is well within its rights selling its own files that are playable only on Apple products.

Annnnnd back to you, Chuck.

Oh, Dougan, the word you are looking for is RACISM, not ageism.

Now, back to you, Chuck.

[markalot]

But it would be such a statement to the large corporations of the world. And, just like the idealistic French, it would be their nature. Of course I know why it doesnt make any sense. I have a mac and use my ipod all the time. But why cant I be a little idealist. Stick it to the man, yeaa, thats the cool thing to do. Well, anyway, as one copy clerk said. It would be nice if 2+2=5.

A statement of what? You shouldn't innovate because someone else can take your idea?

[markalot]

It should be for the good of all people. :p ;)

look my avatar

Yea, I see it smart ass :p

[justa bill]

so they did a story on this on CBS Sunday Morning yesterday, and as i'm watching it a thought occurs to me... "if i was a 20 year old French person, i'd be joining the Police Acadamy (crowd control division)... seems like there's all kinds of job security there." :D

i'm so funny... :o

[Melissa Kay]

so they did a story on this on CBS Sunday Morning yesterday, and as i'm watching it a thought occurs to me... "if i was a 20 year old French person, i'd be joining the Police Acadamy (crowd control division)... seems like there's all kinds of job security there." :D

i'm so funny... :o
cute AND clever ! Gah !

[Shlep]

so they did a story on this on CBS Sunday Morning yesterday, and as i'm watching it a thought occurs to me... "if i was a 20 year old French person, i'd be joining the Police Acadamy (crowd control division)... seems like there's all kinds of job security there." :D

i'm so funny... :o

From what I've gathered, being a member of the gendarme is considered a contemptible, shit job...at least in Paris. I could of course be wrong.

[Melissa Kay]

From what I've gathered, being a member of the gendarme is considered a contemptible, shit job...at least in Paris. I could of course be wrong.
Far as I know, la gendarme ~= police... there's a slight difference.. the gendarme is less urban law enforcement maybe ? La police = police in general in Paris and the slang is "les flics" - like our "cops", I think. Anyhow, yeah, it's not awesome to be a cop in Paris. It's pretty darned square, in fact.

[justa bill]

From what I've gathered, being a member of the gendarme is considered a contemptible, shit job...at least in Paris. I could of course be wrong.

hey, they're not fighting for job 'glamor-ability' but job 'security', right? you can't always have it both ways. shit, if we could ALL be top selling rock stars for life no ONE would drive garbage trucks i bet... :rolleyes:

(not that there's anything wrong with driving garbage trucks, mind you. =)

[george]

French government = poulet (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/10/AR2006041000157.html)

[george]

It would be one thing if the scissor sisters song I bought from itunes was an itunes product but it isn't. It's a song file I paid for, and I, like most people, think it would be nice to be able to play that file on any device.

Yeah!

It really pisses me off that I can't play the CDs I bought in my cassette deck.

Fascists!!!

[euro60]

French government = poulet (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/10/AR2006041000157.html)
exactly. what a bunch of weenies!!! Especially since the law was passed, and now they are going to pass yet another law to withdraw it. Unbelievable. This will have a huge impact on France's reputation in the US business community. Belgium has never looked better :D

[weeone]

Yeah!

It really pisses me off that I can't play the CDs I bought in my cassette deck.

Fascists!!!
Yeah, it's a few months old, but by "device" I meant "software" :cool:

And by :cool: I meant :o

But I think you knew what I meant, george. Eat a dick. And by "eat a dick", I mean "eat a dick".

[markalot]

Yeah, it's a few months old, but by "device" I meant "software" :cool:

And by :cool: I meant :o

But I think you knew what I meant, george. Eat a dick. And by "eat a dick", I mean "eat a dick".

Burn it to a cd. What's the problem? :)

[weeone]

Burn it to a cd. What's the problem? :)
Yeah !! Thanks mark. :cool:

[justa bill]

when I saw this, i thought maybe there were celebratory riots after the win over Brazil or something! :D

[weeone]

Go France !!!!!

1- 0 !!!!!!!!!!



*hides from Motti*

[wileE]

when I saw this, i thought maybe there were celebratory riots after the win over Brazil or something! :D
There will be after France beats Germany in the final.

[Motti]

Go France !!!!!

1- 0 !!!!!!!!!!


*hides from Motti*

Now that's unwarranted. :p

In a semi-related subject, I never understood the concept of rioting after your team wins something.

[justa bill]

Now that's unwarranted. :p

In a semi-related subject, I never understood the concept of rioting after your team wins something.


you and me both. :confused:

and if France beat Germany... heck, it sounds wierd to even say that. :] that is the matchup that I'm calling, but if France won... i'd drink a Merlot or something. :eek: ;)

[back2vinyl]

I guess there is a fine line between a party and a riot.

[Motti]

you and me both. :confused:

and if France beat Germany... heck, it sounds wierd to even say that. :] that is the matchup that I'm calling, but if France won... i'd drink a Merlot or something. :eek: ;)

Perhaps I should root for Germany over Portugal, France or Italy, since I generally prefer beer to wine? :confused:

[justa bill]

Perhaps I should root for Germany over Portugal, France or Italy, since I generally prefer beer to wine? :confused:

i guess that's what i was saying... :] but mostly pointing out that, while I wouldn't expect France to win, it really wouldn't change my life at all if they did. :cool:

[weeone]

I guess there is a fine line between a party and a riot.
Any self respecting riot/party is completely impossible to distinguish from the other.

[justa bill]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/world/europe/28france.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin :[

[motorcitygirl]

missed this thread the other day

A friend of mine just emailed me the recent article. I found the police response interesting:

"'This is a real guerrilla war,' Mr. Ribeiro told RTL radio, warning that the police, who have struggled to avoid excessive force, will not be fired upon indefinitely without responding."

The police have made more than 30 arrests but have been restrained in controlling the violence, using tear gas to disperse the bands of young people and firing paint balls to identify people for possible arrests later."

Stating the obvious I know, but this situation would be handled very differently here. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[yoshomon]

If police fired on crowds it would probably intensify the rioting. Easier to arrest people and torture/kill them in jail or prison...