University of California Sued over Creationism

[tobedawg]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Creationism%20Lawsuit

snippet:
The Association of Christian Schools International, which represents more than 800 schools, filed a federal lawsuit Thursday claiming UC admissions officials have refused to certify high school science courses that use textbooks challenging Darwin's theory of evolution. Other rejected courses include "Christianity's Influence in American History."

According to the lawsuit, the Calvary Chapel Christian School in Murrieta was told its courses were rejected because they use textbooks printed by two Christian publishers, Bob Jones University Press and A Beka Books.

Wendell E. Bird, a lawyer for the association, said the policy violates the rights of students and religious schools.

"A threat to one religion is a threat to all," he said



Christianity's Influence on American History huh??? Hopefully they'll cover the Crusades, Witch-Burnings, and how the Bible was used to justify Slavery and Segregation.. AMEN!

[Orville Wrong]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apus_story.asp?category=1110&slug=Creationism%20Lawsuit
Christianity's Influence on American History huh??? Hopefully they'll cover the Crusades, Witch-Burnings, and how the Bible was used to justify Slavery and Segregation.. AMEN!
Funny stuff.

I haven't seen the syllabus for Christianity's Influence on American History, and it may well be that as taught at Fresno Christian Academy or whatever, it is bad pedagogy. But to imply that a course with this title couldn't possibly be worthwhile because it used source materials published by evangelicals is poppycock. Try studying Communism's Influence on Russia without reading anything published by the Soviet press.

The Crusades predate America by several centuries, so they'd be outside the scope of the course.

[markalot]

I need to read the books to judge (which I won't), but banning admission over a book is as bad as burning a book. People just don't understand that rights = all rights, not just the ones you agree with.

I'd like to see the explanation for why these kids won't make good college students.

[Orville Wrong]

I need to read the books to judge (which I won't), but banning admission over a book is as bad as burning a book. People just don't understand that rights = all rights, not just the ones you agree with.

I'd like to see the explanation for why these kids won't make good college students.
Me too. I guess California can have their own standards, but I would appreciate a little less bitching from the other side about it when Texas, Alabama and Mississippi try to run THEIR schools the way THEY want to.

[yoshomon]

They're not banning admission based on these books. They're just refusing to accept science and history credits recieved in classes where these textbooks were used as the primary text. Basically they're refusing to consider a religious mumbo-jumbo class as a science or history class.

[bloodylost]

that is understandable. A biased book shouldn't count as a history book. But banning it is wrong-- it is one opinion in an argument. They do need to show the other side too though, otherwise the class is biased too.

[markalot]

They're not banning admission based on these books. They're just refusing to accept science and history credits recieved in classes where these textbooks were used as the primary text. Basically they're refusing to consider a religious mumbo-jumbo class as a science or history class.

So do they have a list of criteria required for credit that was not met? What weren't the taught besides evolution?

UC spokeswoman Ravi Poorsina said she could not comment, because the university had not been served with the lawsuit. Still, she said the university has a right to set course requirements.

"These requirements were established after careful study by faculty and staff to ensure that students who come here are fully prepared with broad knowledge and the critical thinking skills necessary to succeed," Poorsina.

Where are you all getting a more detailed explanation?

[benway]

..long as they don't try to weezle religious beliefs in as fact. Tell everyone up front what you're about and less people should have a problem with it.

[Slar]

They're not banning admission based on these books. They're just refusing to accept science and history credits recieved in classes where these textbooks were used as the primary text. Basically they're refusing to consider a religious mumbo-jumbo class as a science or history class.As well they should. The reputation of the university is stained if they accept non-stadardized courses from anyone, religious in nature or not.

[Orville Wrong]

I strongly believe this is a California issue that doesn't concern me on one level, but on another level it does expose a certain hypocrisy that shows up on these boards. Like I said though, yosh, it's impossible for a LEGITIMATE course with this title not to use the Bible, and I don't see why reading the ideas that evangelicals put forth has no value, even if only to learn to recognize and bat down the "mumbo jumbo." I took me years to wash the stink of the Communist Manifesto and a thousand shitty Soviet odes to the worker heros of Potato Sorting Plant Number 437 from my hands after completing my Russian Lit minor, but I learned a thing or two.

Frankly, unless they are masochists, I can't see why anyone from a Christian parochial background would want to go within 300 miles of the UC system, particularly Berkeley.

[the happy prole]

Of course they don't want to go to Berkeley. They just want to bitch and moan because it gets them press.

[Orville Wrong]

Of course they don't want to go to Berkeley. They just want to bitch and moan because it gets them press.
Ha. Cindy Sheehans with Bibles. Rich.

[the happy prole]

This is how they want it to go:

The University of Cal system will want no part of this, and the simplest legal argument they can make is that hey, we can't accept these courses because we would lose our accreditation-- because they probably would for teaching shit published by Bob Jones University Press.

Then the Association of Christian (but not Catholic) Schools can go after the regional accrediting bodies, which is who they really want.

[yoshomon]

Like I said though, yosh, it's impossible for a LEGITIMATE course with this title not to use the Bible, and I don't see why reading the ideas that evangelicals put forth has no value, even if only to learn to recognize and bat down the "mumbo jumbo."

The issue here isn't with the bible being used in classes as a historical source. The issue is with textbooks that are bullshit (Bob Jones University Press, come'on).

[Orville Wrong]

The issue here isn't with the bible being used in classes as a historical source. The issue is with textbooks that are bullshit (Bob Jones University Press, come'on).
Yeah, but I did grad coursework where stuff was used that was published by AK and Soft Skull, so what's your point? Ward Churchill uses his own books as primary texts at Colorado, and he's as nutty as my shit 12 hours after I eat a bunch of nuts.

[the happy prole]

We're talking about the general education curriculum, not graduate school.

If you learned from one of those A Beka or Bob Jones books, you didn't really learn Biology. You learned some other goofy shit which Bob Jones calls "Biology" and which may be just as valid, but it certainly isn't Biology.
You don't get Science credit for Bob Jones Biology just like I wouldn't get Foreign Language credit for Home Economics.

It's not like UCal is screwing these kids over. If you don't know any Biology going into college, you're going to have trouble graduating. So UCal is going to send you back to take a remedial science class. Big deal. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Would you rather them certify the course and then watch the students fail out of Bio 101 after paying their $5k tuition?

[Dirk]

I think the important point is that these are HIGH SCHOOL classes. UC Berkley expects it's incoming students to have studied certain standard things. These course do not fall into that. While "Christian influence in American history" may be an intesting class, it is not a standard class that UCB expects it's students to have. It is of no use to UCB, so they don't recognize it as a history class. They probably wouldn't recognize "History of skateboarding" or "Influence of Family Ties on America" either. Just because a class has to do with the past, doesn't make a history class that UCB will count. You can take any of these class you want, but don't expect them to be counted as legitimate, standard high school history class, because they aren't.

[jps]

i think the point is being made rather handily at this point, but as an example... My social justice class didn't count towards my college entrance as a civics class. The theology class and the comparitive religion classes I took in high school, which used religious based texts were requirements for me to graduate high school, but they did not qualify as classes that I could use to get me into a program at a state university. At least not as biology or history classes. Thats why i took biology and history classes in high school along with the religion classes.

[Orville Wrong]

We're talking about the general education curriculum, not graduate school.
Must say again that I don't care what California does, really. Good point, though re: admissions standards vs. graduate coursework. Though in the humanities, I'm guessing there are some undergraduate courses in the Berkeley catalog that a sensible grad school has no business giving credit for: Comparative Burmese Transgender Lit and such.

[miami2112]

ridiculous! yet another attempt to get creationism/intellegent design into higher learning centers. creationism in any guise IS NOT SCIENCE. it is a psuedoscience. biology classes with textbooks from bob jones u, are about as legit as teaching astronomy with astrology books. interesting reading perhaps, historical perspective - maybe, but astrology is not astronomy. (astrology is bunk). as stated before, these students are not prepared for real biology courses and should be required to take basic courses covering legit science.

[BigSugar]

that is understandable. A biased book shouldn't count as a history book. But banning it is wrong-- it is one opinion in an argument. They do need to show the other side too though, otherwise the class is biased too.


right, so any book written about the savage indian as relates to the westward spread of America would qualify as a "biased" book and therefore every one of us is now ignorant and should have to turn in our high school and college diplomas and turn in our professional accredations.

seriously. fucking morons. stupid fucking morons. It's from California, home of the stupid fucking moron, therefore the actions are to be expected, as are the "good job California" responses herein. LOL!

you have got to be kidding me. are they going to start censoring the reading list in high school english classes now? if the students are told to read "Limbaugh", are they disqualified from college? will it come to that? probably.

[miami2112]

the question is not whether a book is biased or not. the question is whether bob jones u, prints textbooks that convey actual science as opposed to bju's particular viewpoint (which i assume is creationism).

clearly, cal doesnt feel that these particular texts teach SCIENCE and therefore, they should not accept credits from courses that use them.

biased texts are often used in teaching of science courses. i've read donald johanson's (he discoverd "lucy") book on his interpretation of the evidence for human evolution and i can guarantee you that it is going to differ from the leakey's interpretation of the evidence. see?? thats science, debating thoughts based on the evidence.

as for natural selection or survival of the fittest, the multi-drug resistant strains of bacteria have been caused by our use of antibiotics. to combat the ability of bacteria to become MDR, natural selection needs to be understood.

i always find it ironic that those who claim there is no evolution are the quite happy to use technology and/or medicines provided by an understanding of natural selection.

i'm also intrigued by how ppl toss out the "no separation of church and state in the constitution". we all know america was founded on religious freedom. to argue the founding fathers suggested otherwise is an insult to anyone's intellegence. might i also suggest that if the words "separation of church and state" do not appear verbatim in the declaration and constitution and that is some kind of approval of a national religion for this country, that these men also supported SLAVERY. no one suggests we should return to those days, do they?

[BigSugar]

if a state provides accredation to a school and that school uses approved texts to teach a subject, and the student uses those texts and gets an A, then who the fuck is Cal to come in and censor the content of the text and otherwise attempt to discredit a students hard work based upon their opinions of what should be taught. it's bullshit and you know it. if Cal has a problem, they should notify the schools of their intent and work with the schools to find a compromise. They're a public university and they are funded by the govt. telling one school "what you teach is correct" and another school "what you teach is wrong" when BOTH schools are accredited and monitored by their various state and local entities is a load of discriminatory horse crap....or is that Golden Bear crap?

[Slar]

We're talking about the general education curriculum, not graduate school.

If you learned from one of those A Beka or Bob Jones books, you didn't really learn Biology. You learned some other goofy shit which Bob Jones calls "Biology" and which may be just as valid, but it certainly isn't Biology.
You don't get Science credit for Bob Jones Biology just like I wouldn't get Foreign Language credit for Home Economics.

It's not like UCal is screwing these kids over. If you don't know any Biology going into college, you're going to have trouble graduating. So UCal is going to send you back to take a remedial science class. Big deal. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Would you rather them certify the course and then watch the students fail out of Bio 101 after paying their $5k tuition?Quoted for emphasis. Key point: This happens ALL THE TIME and is not directed at any particular school. If the class you took wasn't up to par, you're going to have to take it again.

[miami2112]

snippet:
The Association of Christian Schools International, which represents more than 800 schools, filed a federal lawsuit Thursday claiming UC admissions officials have refused to certify high school science courses that use textbooks challenging Darwin's theory of evolution. Other rejected courses include "Christianity's Influence in American History."


how is creationism science?? how does ""Christianity's Influence in American History" teach US history? not only is it biased but its incorrect.

i'd be curious to see how many of these christain high schools are accreditited by north central or isacs.

i understand your point that cal has no reason to think themselves better than anyone else. but in this case, they are correct to reject such high school courses. there is no mention that these conservative christian school are accredited in the article.

[BigSugar]

how does ""Christianity's Influence in American History" teach US history? not only is it biased but its incorrect.

wow. revisionist often? the course i assume teaches "Christianity's Influence in American History", not "A Definitive and Complete Guide to American History." i seem to remember a little, tiny, itty bit of Christianity influencing the course of American History...even some of our minor founding documents like the Bill of Rights, The Constitution, The Declaration of Independence....minor things like that.

get real. they're censoring it b/c it has the gall to include religion in a discussion of history. wow. probably ought to just shoot the teacher for scientific heresy. LOL!

[Orville Wrong]

how does ""Christianity's Influence in American History" teach US history? not only is it biased but its incorrect.
Martin Luther King, Billy Sunday, Spanish Missions of California, Old North Church, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, Puritanism, Salem Witch Trials, Quakerism, Mormonism, Birmingham Church Bombings, Mayflower, Cotton Mather, Abolitionism, Role of Southern Churches in Slavery Debate, the right Reverend Little Richard, Mahalia Jackson, Temperance Movement on and on and on...

Yeah, not much influence. Not to put too fine a point on something I already pointed out but "Christianity's Influence in American History" in title at least is a fascinating and full avenue of study.

[BigSugar]

there is no mention that these conservative christian school are accredited in the article.

oh yeah, i forgot. if they weren't accredited, it's most likely that Cal wouldn't accept any of their credits.

as for not knowing "biology", last time i went to college, every 101 course i took was a remedial intro to that course on a high school level. this has so little to do with "making sure they're ready", and so much to do with "we don't agree with what you teach." if they really believe that these students aren't ready, give them a test. standardize it and give it all around the nation. use these numbers to judge students understanding of the knowledge they've learned in high school and use it to judge admission to your school! you could call it the "SAT" or "ACT" or something snappy like that. in these tests, you could test a students understanding of multiple subjects on a "standardized" basis. it would be revolutionary in the college admissions process.

[the happy prole]

A high school accreditation was never intended to be, nor has it ever been a guarantee of college acceptance. If you feel think it is, you are no doubt exceedingly dismayed by the numerous high school graduates that U-CAL doesn't just send to remedial classes- but rejects outright.

Or else you're just full of shit.

[the happy prole]

in these tests, you could test a students understanding of multiple subjects on a "standardized" basis. it would be revolutionary in the college admissions process.

Holy shit! I got an even better idea. We'll call them AP or CLEP tests and the score you acheive can not only eliminate you from having to take remedial courses, but you could actually get college level credit!

[miami2112]

Martin Luther King, Billy Sunday, Spanish Missions of California, Old North Church, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, Puritanism, Salem Witch Trials, Quakerism, Mormonism, Birmingham Church Bombings, Mayflower, Cotton Mather, Abolitionism, Role of Southern Churches in Slavery Debate, the right Reverend Little Richard, Mahalia Jackson, Temperance Movement on and on and on...

Yeah, not much influence. Not to put too fine a point on something I already pointed out but "Christianity's Influence in American History" in title at least is a fascinating and full avenue of study.


hmmm. i must agree with you on this provided it is a factual course. i do wonder as to the legitimate context in any book from bob jones u.

should cal accept a course in biology with a "scientific" textbook from university of scientology?

[Orville Wrong]

should cal accept a course in biology with a "scientific" textbook from university of scientology?
What's unscientific about engrams, Xebu and body Thetans? Huh?

[miami2112]

as for not knowing "biology", last time i went to college, every 101 course i took was a remedial intro to that course on a high school level. this has so little to do with "making sure they're ready", and so much to do with "we don't agree with what you teach." .


right, because creationism has nothing to do with science.

[miami2112]

What's unscientific about engrams, Xebu and body Thetans? Huh?


what the hell are those?? lol :p

[Orville Wrong]

what the hell are those?? lol :p
Engrams are negative emotional energies that cling to you and cause you problems. Through Scientology, you progress through a "clearing" process that removes these. Also, millions of years ago, the evil galactic overlord, Xebu, destroyed the planet Theta. The souls of the murdered Thetans hurtled through space to arrive at Earth, where their tortured souls infest and torment non-Scientologists, who can also learn to divest themselves of their body Thetans.

Gosh, didn't you study ANY Scientology in school? Tom Cruise is so disappointed in you that he's standing on the furniture.

[miami2112]

Engrams are negative emotional energies that cling to you and cause you problems. Through Scientology, you progress through a "clearing" process that removes these. Also, millions of years ago, the evil galactic overlord, Xebu, destroyed the planet Theta. The souls of the murdered Thetans hurtled through space to arrive at Earth, where their tortured souls infest and torment non-Scientologists, who can also learn to divest themselves of their body Thetans.

Gosh, didn't you study ANY Scientology in school? Tom Cruise is so disappointed in you that he's standing on the furniture.

you're shitting me! this is what they really believe?? what a bunch of turds.

[miami2112]

i saw the uniramus segment on wierd US on the history channel. they believe flying saucers will land and give us all kinds of technology and save the planet. they have even already purchased the landing site outside of san diego.

not much difference between them and scientologists.

both nuts

[Orville Wrong]

you're shitting me! this is what they really believe?? what a bunch of turds.
Google "body thetans" if you don't believe me. :cool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Thetans

Also, it's Xenu, not Xebu. How could I forget?

[dragonflier]

Google "body thetans" if you don't believe me. :cool:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_Thetans

Also, it's Xenu, not Xebu. How could I forget?

Now you must face the wrath of Xenu.

Prepare for a really nasty.....hangnail.

[jcarwash31]

Did you see the artist drawing of Xenu's spacecraft based on L. Ron Hubbard's description. Brace yourself, for it is truly crazy.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/73/Xenu_space_plane.jpg/250px-Xenu_space_plane.jpg


Who comes up with things like this? I've never seen anything remotley close to that. Ever. :rolleyes:

[dragonflier]

Did you see the artist drawing of Xenu's spacecraft based on L. Ron Hubbard's description. Brace yourself, for it is truly crazy.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/73/Xenu_space_plane.jpg/250px-Xenu_space_plane.jpg


Who comes up with things like this? I've never seen anything remotley close to that. Ever. :rolleyes:
Xenu will smite thee as well!

[jcarwash31]

Xenu will smite thee as well!
Bring it, Xenu. What are you gonna do, send a Body Thetan down along with Engrams and give me a small headache?

You know what I say to that? Ibuprofen, BAM! This should cause a chemical reaction in my body that will counter those chemical signals that are causing the headache. But wait, there is no such thing as chemical signals, right Tom Cruise? I should ask you since you have read some Scientology literature that you paid ALOT of money for and therefore "know" the truth instead of listen to those "scientists" doing all that "research". I guess I would just need a good workout to battle Xenu.

[miami2112]

really, these guys are whacked. in the head. really. do they use rattles and feathers during their services too?

[miami2112]

oh, and screw you xebu (yes, i'm deliberately misspelling his name - bring on the thetans!)

[Spoon4613]

they believe flying saucers will land and give us all kinds of technology and save the planet. they have even already purchased the landing site outside of san diego.
Did they put a big X there? with signs that say "land here"?? And talk about passing the buck. Man. What if they're lazy aliens? Then we're all screwed.

[Nellie Bly]

Engrams are negative emotional energies that cling to you and cause you problems. Through Scientology, you progress through a "clearing" process that removes these. Also, millions of years ago, the evil galactic overlord, Xebu, destroyed the planet Theta. The souls of the murdered Thetans hurtled through space to arrive at Earth, where their tortured souls infest and torment non-Scientologists, who can also learn to divest themselves of their body Thetans.

You forgot that the further along you are in your studies, the more mental powers you can accrue. I think if you reach somewhere around the 5th or 7th level, they tell you that you can kill people--with your mind! I need to find that rider for Tom Cruise where neither the crew nor the townspeople could make eye contact with him...

[wileE]

oh, and screw you xebu (yes, i'm deliberately misspelling his name - bring on the thetans!)
Jebus and Xebu are going to be pissed when they read this thread.

[miami2112]

thought they were all knowing. shouldnt have to read this. i question both of their powers!

[markalot]

All of you are going straight to the spaghetti plate.

[miami2112]

i actually work fsm into my science class today. i might convert - the beer volcano in heaven is the clincher for me.

[yoshomon]

Yeah, but I did grad coursework where stuff was used that was published by AK and Soft Skull, so what's your point? Ward Churchill uses his own books as primary texts at Colorado, and he's as nutty as my shit 12 hours after I eat a bunch of nuts.

I'm not sure how your grad course-work (by those publishers, I'm guessing political science or something like that) is relavent to this discussion at all. While Ward Churchill and Mario Tronti might be leftists that you disagree with, they still write political theory.

Bob Jones doesn't publish science.

[the happy prole]

Not to get into a funky discussion on the philosophy of knowledge but Creationism seeks to explain of natural phenomenon, just like regular Biology. A radical right-wing religious interpretation of history is not much different than what Churchill does.

Again, the difference is that by the time you get to graduate school, you're expected to be well-grounded in "traditional" thoughts and you're actually encouraged to push the envelope. You probably couldn't get into a history graduate program having only taken a few Churchill classes. That's why you need 60 credits in your major. And I'm guessing that Churchill doesn't teach 100 level courses, or if he does they are watered-down.

Whether or not evolution is right, I think most of us would agree that a college graduate should have a fairly good understanding of science. That's why Bio or Chem is typically a gen. ed requirement. And just to get to the 100 level courses you need to have a basic knowledge of Biology, which those books don't give you.

If you got the Ward Churchill version of history in high school, I don't think U-Cal should certify that either. It's simply a ruling that your COURSE isn't evidence enough that you know your stuff. Most institutions will let you demonstrate your knowledge via AP or KLEP tests, or individual departments will often have their own tests or counselors to give you another avenue.

Frankly, I think colleges should send a many more students to remedial classes. We can argue about whether that's snobby or not but flunking out students after a year or two is about the worst thing you can do to them. Lower your requirements, or if you know they don't have the goods send them to a cheap $200 remedial class at a Community College. Don't let them accumulate thousands of dollars of debt for no purpose.

[BigSugar]

Bob Jones doesn't publish my version of science.

fixed that for you. ;)

[dragonflier]

Bob Jones doesn't publish science.

Very true. Visit their biology department home page. They seem to mostly use scripture to explain elements of nature. There's no science in those kinds of explainations.

I wonder if they are currently researching just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[yoshomon]

fixed that for you. ;)

Actually, you're wrong. Science has very clear definitions of what constitutes a theory and what constitutes the scientific method and so on. Creationism does not fit within this. You can call creationism "an explanation of the world" or something, but it isn't science.

[BigSugar]

Actually, you're wrong. Science has very clear definitions of what constitutes a theory and what constitutes the scientific method and so on. Creationism does not fit within this. You can call creationism "an explanation of the world" or something, but it isn't science.

really, then what the crap is the American Heritage Dictionary doing here?

sci·ence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sns)
n.

1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
3. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
4. Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
5. An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
6. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
7. Science; Christian Science.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, knowledge, learning, from Old French, from Latin scientia, from scins, scient- present participle of scre, to know. See skei- in Indo-European Roots.]

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Seems like maybe creationism and science are BOTH "an explanation of the world", which means that you are a creationist!!! <invasion of the body snatchers scream!> :p

[the happy prole]

Oh God, I sense some kind of ugly pomo semiotics battle about to happen. Only with amusing personal insults.

[SheepNutz]

The 7 words you can't say in Kindergarten. #7 is my fav. :D

http://www.collegehumor.com/movies/1603803/

[miami2112]

The 7 words you can't say in Kindergarten. #7 is my fav. :D

http://www.collegehumor.com/movies/1603803/


how about adding "independant thought" to that list?

as if i could spell.

[Orville Wrong]

Oh God, I sense some kind of ugly pomo semiotics battle about to happen. Only with amusing personal insults.
I'm in.

1234567

[monkey neck]

really, then what the crap is the American Heritage Dictionary doing here?

sci·ence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sns)
n.

1. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
3. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
4. Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
5. An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
6. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
7. Science; Christian Science.




American Heritage is such a right-wing rag. :D

[Slar]

4. Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.

Seems like maybe creationism and science are BOTH "an explanation of the world", which means that you are a creationist!!!Seems like you've got twisting words down to a science.

HINT: Taking biology in high school does not make you a scientist.

[Handy Smurf]

Seems like you've got twisting words down to a science.

HINT: Taking biology in high school does not make you a scientist.

When slar steps up in the place, you know he steps correct
Woo Ha! He got you all in check.

I love watching slar regulate

[dragonflier]

Seems like you've got twisting words down to a science.

HINT: Taking biology in high school does not make you a scientist.

Duh, he's a lawyer.