BAM - Winners and Loosers [Archive]

REMgirl

21 Aug 2005, 05:54 PM

Yeah. Way to cash in on your kid's corpse. This woman disgusts me.

It's strange how we all perceive things, isn't it? I think that Cindy Sheehan is honoring the life of her son by speaking out against his death in a war that never should have been. I don't see her as "cashing in" at all.

Back on topic, I'll BAM Chuck Hagel for speaking up about the war in Iraq, and SLAM the London Met for trying to cover up the shooting of an innocent man.

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 06:00 PM

It's strange how we all perceive things, isn't it? I think that Cindy Sheehan is honoring the life of her son by speaking out against his death in a war that never should have been. I don't see her as "cashing in" at all.

Back on topic, I'll BAM Chuck Hagel for speaking up about the war in Iraq, and SLAM the London Met for trying to cover up the shooting of an innocent man.
Her husband is divorcing her over it -- he knows what she's about, and it was enough for him to check out.

Mark Steyn:

Her son Casey was killed in April last year and in June the President met the Sheehans to offer his condolences. The story appeared in the 24 June 2004 edition of the Reporter, their hometown paper in Vacaville, California:

‘“I now know he’s sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis,” Cindy said after their meeting. “I know he’s sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he’s a man of faith....”

‘For the first time in 11 weeks, they felt whole again. “That was the gift the President gave us, the gift of happiness, of being together,” Cindy said.’

Mrs Sheehan wants a second meeting with Bush because she no longer feels the way she did at the first one. Instead of gratitude for ‘the gift the President gave us’, she now says her son was ‘murdered by the Bush crime family’.

She's an attention whore, plain and simple. I hope she gets AIDS.

REMgirl

21 Aug 2005, 06:06 PM

"Her husband is divorcing her over it -- he knows what she's about, and it was enough for him to check out."

Since we know virtually nothing about their personal lives, you have no basis for that criticism. Maybe her husband is a jerk. Maybe the marriage was already over.

"She's an attention whore, plain and simple. I hope she gets AIDS."

Nice.

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 06:09 PM

Nice.
My trademark.

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 06:19 PM

Since we know virtually nothing about their personal lives, you have no basis for that criticism. Maybe her husband is a jerk. Maybe the marriage was already over.
He has said that though he is a democrat, he is upset with her "radicalization." The rest of the family has basically renounced her and acknowledged that Casey was exactly where he wanted to be doing exactly what he wanted to do.

REMgirl

21 Aug 2005, 06:35 PM

Grief affects people differently. Many marriages and families break up as a result of a child's death. Some families draw more closely together, others split apart.

We don't know these people. I feel a connection to Cindy Sheehan because I've always been against this war and I have a son who's 18 and would be insane with grief if he died in the war in Iraq. That is something I have in common with her, even if I don't know her personally.

Casey may have been doing what he felt was right, and in that there is no shame. But he's still dead, and in a questionable war such as Iraq, knowing that is small comfort.

despondent

21 Aug 2005, 06:37 PM

see new sig.

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 06:46 PM

Casey may have been doing what he felt was right, and in that there is no shame. But he's still dead, and in a questionable war such as Iraq, knowing that is small comfort.
Err, yeah. But would you turn into a shrill, screaming psychopath on my television? Somehow I doubt it.

If she's having a public nervous breakdown, well, I feel for her on one level. But she's doing it on CNN, and simultaneously being exploited in her illness by AirAmerica and every other loathesome manifestation of the American left. And it's uncouth.

REMgirl

21 Aug 2005, 06:58 PM

"Err, yeah. But would you turn into a shrill, screaming psychopath on my television? Somehow I doubt it."

I hope I wouldn't. But I can't say. My son is still alive.

"If she's having a public nervous breakdown, well, I feel for her on one level. But she's doing it on CNN, and simultaneously being exploited in her illness by AirAmerica and every other loathesome manifestation of the American left. And it's uncouth."

I have no doubt that she is sincere in her belief. I don't know for sure, but I doubt that she got on the phone from her ditch in Crawford and started networking with all the liberal news outlets...I think the media vultures started circling the ditch early and then the feeding frenzy began.

"Uncouth?" Now you're just being silly.

How old are your kids? Any military service-age sons or daughters? Just curious about your frame of reference...

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 07:34 PM

How old are your kids? Any military service-age sons or daughters? Just curious about your frame of reference...
I hesitate to use the word "kid" in this context (I used it earlier just to mean offspring). No, I have no children at all, but if they were military age, they wouldn't be children. There are no American "kids" in Iraq. Our military is adult and volunteer, just like Casey Sheehan.

Cindy Sheehan is one squeaky wheel, but she's simply not representative of the bereaved parents of our lost military personnel. But she's treated as somehow typical. She probably is insane, so I might cut her some slack if she quits making the tv appearances.

REMgirl

21 Aug 2005, 08:06 PM

"I hesitate to use the word "kid" in this context (I used it earlier just to mean offspring). No, I have no children at all, but if they were military age, they wouldn't be children. There are no American "kids" in Iraq. Our military is adult and volunteer, just like Casey Sheehan."

Trust me when I say this, and I apologize in advance because it will sound condescending even though I really am not trying to be...but your kids are kids no matter how old they are. My son is going off to college and even though he's been working as an intern at the newspaper and earning money and taking on adult responsibilities, he's still a kid. I acknowledge that going off to school doesn't compare to going off to war, but he will be out of my house and away from family and friends. (and I'm already dreading that!)

All the military training, no matter how strict and ingrained it becomes, can't make those teenagers into adults. They will age and mature in many ways, but they are still "kids" to their parents. We can't help it.

It matters not to me whether you consider Cindy Sheehan sane or insane. I wouldn't say she speaks for all military moms, but I know she speaks for many. The moms that feel otherwise can have their say, too, and they have their own sites and speeches.

Like all the other news, this too shall pass...

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 08:19 PM

Trust me when I say this, and I apologize in advance because it will sound condescending even though I really am not trying to be...but your kids are kids no matter how old they are. My son is going off to college and even though he's been working as an intern at the newspaper and earning money and taking on adult responsibilities, he's still a kid. I acknowledge that going off to school doesn't compare to going off to war, but he will be out of my house and away from family and friends. (and I'm already dreading that!)
Oh, I'm quite certain that my mother still considers me a child (and she's not too far off), but she hasn't made a decision for me in 20 years, and never will again. Cindy Sheehan's most ludicrous statement (among many) was that if she had it to do over, she would have driven Casey to Canada herself. Well, ignoring that Canada wouldn't have had him, HE WOULD NOT HAVE LET HER.

And what of the curious change of view with this nutjob:

Her son Casey was killed in April last year and in June the President met the Sheehans to offer his condolences. The story appeared in the 24 June 2004 edition of the Reporter, their hometown paper in Vacaville, California:

‘“I now know he’s sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis,” Cindy said after their meeting. “I know he’s sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he’s a man of faith....”

‘For the first time in 11 weeks, they felt whole again. “That was the gift the President gave us, the gift of happiness, of being together,” Cindy said.’

And now:

Mrs Sheehan wants a second meeting with Bush because she no longer feels the way she did at the first one. Instead of gratitude for ‘the gift the President gave us’, she now says her son was ‘murdered by the Bush crime family’.

Oh my.

benway

21 Aug 2005, 08:26 PM

Yeah. Way to cash in on your kid's corpse. This woman disgusts me.
Speaks out against the war that killed her son and she discusts you? Dying for "freedom" is one thing. Dying for oil is another. And we ain't getting either out of Iraq. Yeah, she's got something to bitch about.

LOakley

21 Aug 2005, 08:27 PM

I wholeheartedly agree with you REMgirl.

My oldest sibling is 53, my youngest sibling is 40. Every weekend my parents call "the kids".

Cindy Sheehan should be applauded. It's too late for her son, but she is trying to save other parents from going through what she has had to endure.

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 08:29 PM

Speaks out against the war that killed her son and she discusts you? Dying for "freedom" is one thing. Dying for oil is another. And we ain't getting either out of Iraq. Yeah, she's got something to bitch about.
Decides to speak out against it by trotting out his corpse AFTER she decided she could make some money and TV facetime off it.

Listen, I actually think she is mentally ill. The real culprits here are the more powerful people of the left who share your views that the war is about oil and are using her and her son's dead body in a cynical ploy to sabotage the war effort.

REMgirl

21 Aug 2005, 08:40 PM

I've read what Cindy has said about her first meeting with Bush and with her subsequent change of heart about him. When she first met him, her son had been recently killed and she was still numb with the initial grief of losing him. But a year later, after hearing about the Downing Street memo and other information about the illegitimacy of this war, she started to have doubts and concerns about losing her son in a war that need not have happened.

I cannot convince you, Orville Wrong, and I've enjoyed the discourse. But neither can you persuade me that Cindy Sheehan is a bad or crazy person. I call it a draw. ;)

Our life experiences are different, so of course we see things differently.

However, since we're both here at the WOXY board, we at least have good taste in music in common. :)

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 08:45 PM

However, since we're both here at the WOXY board, we at least have good taste in music in common. :)
Agreed. I was just pm-ing someone else about how I had vowed to stay the hell out of CE/P but was starting to lapse.

I think I'll toddle off back to Randomville and Main Music.

REMgirl

21 Aug 2005, 08:53 PM

twentyshots

21 Aug 2005, 09:25 PM

Her husband is divorcing her over it -- he knows what she's about, and it was enough for him to check out.

The whole "the rest of her family thinks she's nuts" argument is lame, think about your own family (if you weren't raised by wolves) and the Schiavo family, or ANY family where somebody wins the lottery and the rest are all bitchy back biters. people get disowned everyday for lesser shit.

I hope she gets AIDS.

idiotic.

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 09:27 PM

I say no harm, no foul. I like discussing politics if people stay civil and don't start acting stupid. And you were civil. So it's cool. I would enjoy fencing with you again.

I watch a whole lot of political talking heads every Sunday morning, and I try to watch both sides, from Tim Russert to the Wall Street week in review. My favorite is the McGlaughlin Group. I want to hear both sides and make up my own mind. If you only listen to the group you agree with, you don't learn much. :p
Yeah, I read about 10,000,000 political blogs. Mostly libertarian stuff, but a little Power Line and a little Josh Marshall to get my right and left on.

I watch Fox for Laurie Dhue more than their slant. I can't stand anything they air after Brit Hume signs off. O'Reilly. Ha.

REMgirl

21 Aug 2005, 09:40 PM

I can't manage a minute of FOX "news". Not even thirty seconds. It's just too much. I find it appalling that so many people watch it as their main source of news. It's so skewed to the right that I'm amazed that their tv's don't fall over...

I like liberal blogs, of course. I read Daily KOS and Alternet every day. Occasionally I go read some right wing stuff but it gives me indigestion. I need to start incorporating more Libertarian information so I'm even more well-rounded.

People would laugh out loud if they saw me shouting obscenities at some of the Republicans on the Sunday political talk shows. I can't help myself. I feel better after calling them vile names.

Orville Wrong

21 Aug 2005, 09:45 PM

I like liberal blogs, of course. I read Daily KOS and Alternet every day. Occasionally I go read some right wing stuff but it gives me indigestion. I need to start incorporating more Libertarian information so I'm even more well-rounded.

Libertarian Blogs of note:

http://catallarchy.net/blog/
http://www.theagitator.com/
http://www.colbycosh.com/
http://www.samizdata.net/blog/

REMgirl

21 Aug 2005, 09:55 PM

Thanks! I'll check them out and keep them bookmarked for ongoing reference. It's not easy being informed these days because you can't believe one source for facts. You have to constantly recheck what gets said.

I have some Libertarian friends, Liberal friends and even a few Republican friends. I haven't killed anyone yet.

That being said, I'm sticking to my Sheehan opinion. :D

icehouse

23 Aug 2005, 02:21 PM

Yeah. Way to cash in on your kid's corpse. This woman disgusts me.
She's an attention whore, plain and simple. I hope she gets AIDS..

Wow. You're a classy one. Doesn't cashing in usually involve a profit? Call me crazy but camping out instead of working usually equates to operating at a loss. It would seem that your outlandish comment was written just to get attention; that or you are just a high school kid with nothing better to do then act like an ass.

I don't BAM Cindy S. There are more effective ways to make your point. I DO UNBAM ORVILLE WRONG for being an ass.

Orville Wrong

23 Aug 2005, 02:34 PM

I don't BAM Cindy S. There are more effective ways to make your point. I DO UNBAM ORVILLE WRONG for being an ass.
Go fuck yourself, icehouse, you presumptuous prong.

Never heard of a book deal? It's coming, and the advance will be six figures. Know what honoraria are? Yeah, they're coming, too. Probably $30K per.

Edited to add: These boards feature an Ignore List -- use it.

Shimmercore

23 Aug 2005, 02:58 PM

I BAM Orville Wrong in this thread. Finally, a voice of reason in the sea of moaning and groaning.

gwar469

23 Aug 2005, 03:07 PM

Can I give a superSLAM to Pat Robertson? I know there's already another thread on his statements, but I thought I'd give him a SLAM here.

Slar

23 Aug 2005, 03:38 PM

Note: His name is Orville WRONG. Chosen for a reason I'm sure.

Your baseless slams are contradictory. If she's metally ill she's probably not in it for the money, and vice versa.

Orville Wrong

23 Aug 2005, 03:49 PM

Note: His name is Orville WRONG. Chosen for a reason I'm sure.

Your baseless slams are contradictory. If she's metally ill she's probably not in it for the money, and vice versa.
Since when are mental illness and acquisitiveness mutually exclusive? With Cindy Sheehan, I contend they certainly are not.

Slar

23 Aug 2005, 03:54 PM

Thank you for being part of the Cindy Sheehan "Smear-A-Thon". The George Bush administration thanks you for your efforts.

Orville Wrong

23 Aug 2005, 03:58 PM

Thank you for being part of the Cindy Sheehan "Smear-A-Thon". The George Bush administration thanks you for your efforts.
Oh, for Christ's sake. I could give two stale shits for GWB. I dislike Cindy Sheehan on her own demerits.

I'm also just amazed that she is considered newsworthy:

Opposed to war before son goes.
Opposed to war after son goes and is killed.
Goes camping.
News!

GQuagmire

23 Aug 2005, 04:48 PM

I am with Orville on this one (except for the AIDS comment). I think Cindy Sheehan is being incredibly selfish and that she may indeed have some form of mental illness. I think she may be one of those types that wants to be the victim in the spotlight - along the same lines as those involved in Munchausen by Proxy.

How do you think her son would feel about this if he was (or is) watching all of this? She's thinking about herself before she's thinking about him - someone who VOLUNTARILY enlisted and went over there to do what he felt was right. Do you seriously think he went over there thinking there was no chance he might be killed or wounded? I hardly think so. And knowing that, I would say he must have pretty firmly supported the cause. I can see why her family is pissed off at her behavior.

icehouse

23 Aug 2005, 04:49 PM

Go fuck yourself, icehouse, you presumptuous prong.

Never heard of a book deal? It's coming, and the advance will be six figures. Know what honoraria are? Yeah, they're coming, too. Probably $30K per.

Edited to add: These boards feature an Ignore List -- use it.

Why ignore something? Isn't broad exposure the whole point of the net? I don't mean to come off as an ass myself, but I guess I did. I just thought it was awful to hope someone gets AIDS.

I do think you have a valid point on her mental instability and I honestly couldn't know that she isn't doing it for money...but that is one book I wouldn't read.

REMgirl

23 Aug 2005, 06:55 PM

It's interesting reading all these comments. I wasn't aware that there were so many psychologists here at the WOXY board... :p

She is a military mom. She loved her son dearly. Unless any of you guys have military-age sons or daughters, you have no idea what it's like to see your son flying off to fight in a foreign country. She knew the danger, as did her son. But you never "get it" until it happens. And no one gets to tell you how you should feel or how you should react.

None of us know Cindy Sheehan. You can't superimpose your feelings on someone else and label them crazy. Even other military moms disagree on how they felt when their family members were killed.

Lots of people react to tragedy by becoming spokespersons for their cause. John Walsh is still intent on stopping child abuse and his son was killed twenty years ago.

So, unless you have the misfortune to be in Cindy Sheehan's shoes, I suggest you switch the channel when she's speaking her mind. Some of us support her.

GQuagmire

23 Aug 2005, 07:52 PM

I don't think I need to know her to see that it is being selfish with regard to her son. I feel the same way about a lot of suicides - in many cases it is the ultimate in selfish acts.

Orville Wrong

24 Aug 2005, 07:17 AM

Why ignore something? Isn't broad exposure the whole point of the net? I don't mean to come off as an ass myself, but I guess I did. I just thought it was awful to hope someone .

I do think you have a valid point on her mental instability and I honestly couldn't know that she isn't doing it for money...but that is one book I wouldn't read.
OK, I'll admit my hopes for Sheehan's future medical condition were a bit over the top. I recant telling you to fuck yourself. I can also get past the high school comment (actually, I'm 38).

Peace.

markalot

24 Aug 2005, 07:46 AM

OK, I'll admit my hopes for Sheehan's future medical condition were a bit over the top. I recant telling you to fuck yourself. I can also get past the high school comment (actually, I'm 38).

Peace.

Ha, you punk. You haven't lived until your 42, so shut it. :D

chuxxter

24 Aug 2005, 08:00 AM

Ha, you punk. You haven't lived until your 42, so shut it. :D
I'm over 50 so I guess that means that what I have to say is somehow more important than anyone else? I started out totally on Cindy's side as I am opposed to the war also. However, her son volunteered and then re-upped and volunteered for a rescue mission he knew was dangerous. This changes the whole picture for me. It is obvious he was right where he wanted to be, mother notwithstanding. That said, I am still opposed to the war. However, Orville, you really should hold your criticism of any parent's behavior until you understand what motivates parents. I have two children in their twenties who are still my kids and I would do everything short of kidnapping to keep them out of the military. Those without children cannot know how a parent thinks, acts, or is motivated. Please stop throwing stones until you have some experience on this matter. Parents are strange people sometimes and what motivates their behavior goes beyond your comprehension at this time. Cindy and Casey should both be given their 15 minutes and the nation as a whole should move on. This whole thing is getting a little too much attention.