"it's also important for me to go on with my life"

[Sovrana]

From the time the Iraq war broke, I mourned the mothers of the soldiers. Docta and I were preparing to have a son and we had our girl. Time and time again I wondered how these mothers dealt with this. As a mother, I hurt for them.

I should have known that the voice of sincerity that I have been waiting to hear would come from one of these mothers.

Thank you Cindy Sheehan for keeping it real.

[REMgirl]

Thanks, Sovrana. As the mother of teenage boys, when I read the names and ages of those soldiers who have been killed, I want to cry. It's heartbreaking. I wish Cindy Sheehan the best and thank her for her dedication and determination.

[drworm8]

What's real is that she lost her son and her marriage and has no hopes of ever getting a face-to-face.

why couldn't she get a face to face? Bush is finally meeting with families.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8941525/site/newsweek/

[BigSugar]

if i was GW, i'd walk out with an axe and say "you wanna talk, you gotta chop wood. let's go." that would be the cool thing to do. unless of course she just wants to rant/yell at him. then what's the use of meeting with her.

her whole family signed a letter saying they didn't agree with her. her husband has filed for divorce. she is being used horribly by Michael Moore and the rest of the anti-bush crowd and is too grief stricken to do anything but continue to lash out. i feel sorry for her and wish her the best, but she's being used to prop up a political agenda, and it's sick.

[BigSugar]

why couldn't she get a face to face? Bush is finally meeting with families.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8941525/site/newsweek/

he's actually met with families of over 900 dead soldiers so far, and visited hundreds of wounded in the hospital. not that it would ever get reported in depth.

LOL! i should read the story in full before i speak. apparently this fact was indeed reported in the story. first time i'd seen it somewhere besides the right wing sources.

[drworm8]

her whole family signed a letter saying they didn't agree with her. her husband has filed for divorce. she is being used horribly by Michael Moore and the rest of the anti-bush crowd and is too grief stricken to do anything but continue to lash out. i feel sorry for her and wish her the best, but she's being used to prop up a political agenda, and it's sick.

used? I have to disagree respectfully. Michael Moore didn't tell her to go out there and protest. She did it herself. The "agenda" you speak of is reality: Bush lied, and mothers of dead soldiers my age are angry. They want answers. As for her famioly, their lack of support disgusts me.

[shivvy]

why couldn't she get a face to face? Bush is finally meeting with families.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8941525/site/newsweek/

She's FUCKING WITH HIS 5 WEEK VACATION man. Obviously when you are the leader of the free world and you haven't even had a full month off of work you don't want some dumb bitch who lost her son because of you to fuck up your good times chopping wood and rocking it on the ranch! (Whew, hello run-on sentence)

[dragonflier]

She's FUCKING WITH HIS 5 WEEK VACATION man. Obviously when you are the leader of the free world and you haven't even had a full month off of work you don't want some dumb bitch who lost her son because of you to fuck up your good times chopping wood and rocking it on the ranch! (Whew, hello run-on sentence)
And yet, a damn good run-on at that.

[Docta]

if i was GW, i'd walk out with an axe and say "you wanna talk, you gotta chop wood. let's go." that would be the cool thing to do. unless of course she just wants to rant/yell at him. then what's the use of meeting with her.

um, it's important if only to let her rant/yell. it's about her, not him. no skin off his back is it?

her whole family signed a letter saying they didn't agree with her.

who gives a shit what they think? it's not them asking for time with the president.

[LOakley]

I want to hear from Bush (and all the war mongers out there) why it was so important to send cannon fodder over to Iraq.

And I want to hear from the same people why it's not important enough for them to send themselves or their family members (including Bush's daughters) over there.

I greatly respect the people who enlisted. They could of stayed home like most people and let others do their sacrificing. I just feel bad because they were so blatantly misled.

[Smoker29]

I agree that she's being used. I've already heard the news on several occasions refer to her as the "Face" of the antiwar movement. The press is drooling over this. They now have a mascot for the antiwar movement. It is sickening. The press and the President’s foes also would love for this meeting to go down. Who knows what would happen or be discussed, but one thing is for sure, the Prez is in a lose-lose situation on this one.

On one hand, I think Bush is smart not to meet with her. She doesn't realize it (or maybe she does) that she's the bait and a lot of people really want to see Bush get reeled in. On the other hand, I think Bush should meet with her. If she wants to scream and curse at him, so be it. I think she's got a right to be angry. No matter how you lose a child, you have a right to be angry at anything if you so chose. I’m 50/50 on this one. I guess if I had to make a command decision, I’d say the meeting would be a bad idea. I don’t think any good would come from it for both parties involved.

Listen, I don't know what I'd do if I were in her shoes. In my opinion, she's lost a son and that's got to be the worse feeling imaginable. She can shave off her eyebrows and sell candy coated plungers if it makes her feel better. Seriously, let her rant and protest until the cows come home. I hope she has or is planning to see some sort of a counselor eventually, but I really don't care what she does if it makes her feel better and doesn’t get her hurt or arrested in the process.

My heart goes out to her and her family during these tough times. I hope they can eventually work through all the crap and pull together like a family should during times like these.

[LOakley]

She's not a msacot, she's a human face to the anti-war movement.

Bush has spent a lot of effort to keep war images private. No showing coffins returning to the US. No showing stories of Iraqi civilian casualties. No showing pictures of the thousands upon thousands wounded soldiers warehoused in military hospitals in Europe.

It wasn't until a couple of weeks ago that Ohioans saw humanness to the war. It hit me hard. One of the dead had a 7 week old kid.

[Pretend Girl]

And I want to hear from the same people why it's not important enough for them to send themselves or their family members (including Bush's daughters) over there.


I swear if someone makes this stupid argument one more time I am going to punch someone in the face.

Last I checked, people were sending themselves to Iraq, their parents weren't packing their bags and insisting they leave. Until Jenna Bush tells everyone she wants to go to Iraq and papa says no, quit trying to blame Bush for not sending his own children.

Seriously, it doesn't even make sense.

[LOakley]

He can persuade the importness to 18 year olds, he's just not persuasive enough to tell the importance to his own kids.

[Docta]

Seriously, it doesn't even make sense.

the point is that, for the most part the people making the decisions to go to war do not have to suffer the consequences of said war personally. those in power have children with many, many options in their lives so serving in the military is not at all a necesity or often a priority. for the most part military recruits are not from those families who are swimming in money. that being said most who do serve in the military do beleive in their cause after enlisting, but once you're in you almost have to in order to keep yourself sane.

[Sovrana]

I swear if someone makes this stupid argument one more time I am going to punch someone in the face.



I think the argument is that Bush has made no sacrifice when calling for war. He didn't send his kids to war, he sent others' children to war. So the only Americans that have made a sacrifice are American military families. And his response I think is best reflected in his statement that I used to title this thread.

[Pretend Girl]

you can't be serious.

18 year olds have always been persuaded to join the military and it's for a multitude of reasons that rarely include "because the president said so".

imagine you even mildly supported the war and your dad came home from work and said "hey I signed you up for the army." How ridiculous is that???

Because that is what people are asking Bush to do and frankly, it makes no sense.

[Pretend Girl]

I think the argument is that Bush has made no sacrifice when calling for war. He didn't send his kids to war, he sent others' children to war. So the only Americans that have made a sacrifice are American military families. And his response I think is best reflected in his statement that I used to title this thread.

IT IS NOT HIS CALL WHETHER HIS EIGHTEEN YEAR OLD KIDS GO TO WAR OR NOT.

I side with you against the war, against Bush, against people dying for what I think is a wasted cause, but I also think it hurts the anti-war stance to make ludicrous claims, like Bush should be signing up his adult daughters for the war.

[LOakley]

Is this a war YOU are willing to die for?

If not, don't send others to die for you.

[Pretend Girl]

Is this a war YOU are willing to die for?

If not, don't send others to die for you.

way to miss the point.

is this why people write me off when I say I hate Bush?

[LOakley]

I wasn't missing the point.

When an event happens to other people, a person tends to impersonalize things. For a decision as important as to go to war, you have to ask yourself what are you willing to do?

I was of prime fighting age in 1990 for the first Iraq war. I fully understood the positive reasons for going to war, much more so for that one than this one. But I couldn't support it because I did not think it was worth my enlisting. If I wouldn't do it, how could I send others my own age to do it for me?

If his war decisions were directly affecting Bush's core supporters, the ones who are most benefitting economically from his presidency, different decisions may have been made.

Bush was so willing to send others. But if his biggest economic supportors thought it was worth dying for, then maybe I would better accept his reasoning.

But they aren't going, so I can't accept their reasoning.

[Pretend Girl]

no you were missing the point and you're still missing the point.

the point is not about "impersonalizing the war" and whatever else you took the time to write out. the point is one of logic and law and has nothing to do with political beliefs at all.

are you reading...? keeping in mind there is currently no draft:
bush CANNOT send his adult daughters to war.
same way that my dad cannot send me to war and your dad cannot send you to war. and it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that he can.

I've never once heard Bush say "if my daughters wanted to go to war I would not let them" and neither have you. and until you hear that, you can't say he's not willing to let them go.

i know it's easy to pin everything on bush and paint him as the anti-christ. believe me, i'd love to believe he's a bloodthirsty inhuman incarnation of the devil, but alas he's just a greedy, ignorant politician with a childhood much different from mine. i can't stand him and i think he's a danger to the world, but i think there are much more logical arguments for why he's doing the wrong thing that don't make the bush opponents look like an overemotional mess of uninformed hippies...

saying bush isn't "willing" to send his adult (can I stress this enough?) daughters to war just makes you look like you're grasping for anything bad to say about him.

[LOakley]

Pretend Girl,

I understand your point, and it is well taken.

Bush daughters are their own people. They do not have to do anything their parents tell them to do, just as I didn't do everything my parents have wished I've done.

Also, I know there have been many kids who have enlisted against their parents wishes. I met someone last year whose son was sent to Iraq...he and his buddies joined when a recruiter went to his high school.

But as far as Bush's family and his core economic supportors (and I have been careful to use the adjective "economic" because his rural supporters were enlisting in droves), if Bush couldn't sell the sacrifice of war to them, why are they trying so hard to sell it to everyone else?

[sparkie]

bush cant sign his daughters up for the army. but if they joined some branch of the service on their own, could you imagine what a positive spin that would be for the pro war movement. fundamentally the war would be so justified that the idiot chief instilled so much patriotism and belief in his own daughters to go off and fight the good fight that there would be no questioning his devotion and loyalty to this war that he "will see through". they would never be on the front lines anyway. any political office holder that has kids that join the service are stateside during the fighting or in some office, far far away from the fighting. so in all honesty its a dead issue.

[the happy prole]

Bush did pretty much dodge combat himself in his earlier years so I think that's a legit complaint. But at this point it would be supremely irresponsible for a 55 year old man with no combat skills who is also the leader of the United States to foolishly risk his life (and the lives of the troops around him). And the Bush daughters make their own choice.

It's pretty stupid for anyone to demand a personal audience with the President. It's even more stupid when they already got one. The only thing this woman will accept is for Bush to say he's a lying, evil person. It ain't gonna happen. And if for some crazy reason it did, it ain't gonna bring her son back or make her any happier. It's just going to make her even more mad and serve as PR for libs.

I'm totally with Pretend Girl and Smoker29 on this one. If we want Bush to take less vacation, we should ask that he spend the time working on policy, not kowtowing to some woman with unreasonable and unrealistic demands.

[Sovrana]

Pretend Girl, I don't think anyone is missing a point here, just different points being made. Yours, that Bush cannot force his daughters to enlist is not a point I'm interested in debating simply because as we have a volunteer army, this point is assumed. Why are you trying to debate this point? I do see anyone here arguing this with you.

As for the following:



Another nice summation by Christopher Hitchens at slate.com:

Finally, I think one must deny to anyone the right to ventriloquize the dead. Casey Sheehan joined up as a responsible adult volunteer. Are we so sure that he would have wanted to see his mother acquiring "a knack for P.R." and announcing that he was killed in a war for a Jewish cabal?

I do not recall Sheehan or any other military parent claiming to speak for their deceased children. These parents are speaking on behalf of themselves as parents. Up to now, most parents who opposed the war at the time of their children's enlistment maintained a peaceful support of the decision..not support for the war, but for their children.

Seems as though here Hitchens is himself guilty of what he accuses Sheehan of doing...trying to "ventriloquize" the fallen soldier.

[Handy Smurf]

Pretend Girl,

I understand your point, and it is well taken.

Bush daughters are their own people. They do not have to do anything their parents tell them to do, just as I didn't do everything my parents have wished I've done.

Also, I know there have been many kids who have enlisted against their parents wishes. I met someone last year whose son was sent to Iraq...he and his buddies joined when a recruiter went to his high school.

But as far as Bush's family and his core economic supportors (and I have been careful to use the adjective "economic" because his rural supporters were enlisting in droves), if Bush couldn't sell the sacrifice of war to them, why are they trying so hard to sell it to everyone else?
No, you're totally missing the point
What you're trying to get at is "the rich fat cats who are in favor of the war," no?
Well last time I checked, most of them are likely well into their 40's or older arent they? I hardly think the army would have them.
PG makes a good point and you just arent grasping it.

I do understand, however, that people who tend to come from wealthy backgrounds are far far less likely to feel the effects of the casualties of war. What does this say about these people? I dont know. I dont know how all "rich" people feel about the war(opposed/in favor) and I'm not here to make assumptions

There are much better arguments to make against the war.
I lost any ounce of respect I had for Michael Moore when I saw him, in what was an otherwise interesting film, asking Congressmen to "sign their kids up for the army." That scene alone proves that the guy is a clueless dolt and wrecked his credibility in my mind.

[drworm8]

I lost any ounce of respect I had for Michael Moore when I saw him, in what was an otherwise interesting film, asking Congressmen to "sign their kids up for the army." That scene alone proves that the guy is a clueless dolt and wrecked his credibility in my mind.

Yeah, I think he should have done that whole segment differently....maybe instead to provoke thought into the Congressmen to "persuade" their kids....and then state the results that only one Congressman has a kid in Iraq (at least that's what was stated in the film at the time).

[BigSugar]

Is this a war YOU are willing to die for?

If not, don't send others to die for you.

LOL! you are a fucking moron and are now on ignore. three posts is enough for anyone to realize that you have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation. Lee Harvey, you are a madman.

"Well, i thought i'd sign up before I got drafted."
"Son, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but there is no draft anymore."
"Really?"

[drworm8]

As for the Bush daughter argument, PG makes the unarguable point and I'm surprised this thread has grown because of that point to debate her. A better statement by the left would be that the war's so fabricated and based on lies, "even Bush's daughters won't sign up to help" or something like that. I could probably nod my head in agreement to that rather than the argument being (over)used now.

[Lucy VanPelt]

to respond to the original idea of this thread, i'm with you, sovrana.

[markalot]

I should have known that the voice of sincerity that I have been waiting to hear would come from one of these mothers.



Bottom line, what does she expect to gain? I thought Bush handled it well, even mentioning her name in a speech. You can point out how ugly politicians are till you're blue in the face, but the fact is ALL of them are ugly so the point is mostly lost.

I don't doubt she is sincere, but sincerity != right or logical or a well thought out position.

[BigSugar]

[threadjacking] Sidenote about Michael Moore: he was in town (Cincy area) secretly filming doctors offices and drug reps as they made their rounds to doctors offices. this was about 2 months ago or so. My sister, a drug rep for Pfizer (Celebrex, Bextra, Detrol, Viagra, etc...), saw him in one of the offices and recognized him, despite his large hat and glasses (which clearly had a camera attached to them). So she decided it would be totally sweet to fuck with him for a while. She sat next to him and kept staring at him. he got totally uncomfortable. finally she just got up, called him a "fucking tool" and a disgrace and then met with her doc about a new drug study on one of her drugs. LOL! i hate MM.

back to topic. thought you MM fans and foes would like to hear that one. his next movie is apparently about drug companies and prescription drugs and their marketing. i hope my sister makes it in the film calling him a tool! [\threadjacking]

[Sovrana]

Bottom line, what does she expect to gain?

She's gained it.

Ironically...to keep it simple, no political justification. Simply asking why her son died. It's that "Just answer the question, Claire" situation that makes it brilliant and...er...political. ;)

[Handy Smurf]

She's gained it.

Ironically...to keep it simple, no political justification. Simply asking why her son died. It's that "Just answer the question, Claire" situation that makes it brilliant and...er...political. ;)
Its unfortunate to know we could never count on getting a legitimate answer from a politician in almost any level of government to any difficult question we would ever care to ask.

If somebody was running for public office and his first campaign ad featured him sitting in a barca lounger, drinking a PBR and watching football while saying, "I masturbate regularly, laugh at "dumb blonde" jokes, and smoked pot everyday for a year when I was 19"--I would drop everything to immediately work for his campaign. I don't care if he was running as a member of the Communist party, I'd respect that honesty way too much

[Radi0FreeChicgo]

my favorite stories about "Camp Casey" so far have been about the anti-Sheehan ya-hoos. FreeWilliamsburg (http://www.freewilliamsburg.com)(no relation) has compiled them quite well.

Narrow minded yokels with shotguns and pickup trucks!! They're so stereotypical of themselves it's hilarious. Middle America is a very scary place.

Also,

What kind of grown man gets his jollies out of runnin' over shit with a truck?? You're 46 years old!! That's the kind of stuff that idiot 16 year olds do. Are you going to go out and smash some mailboxes later?? Maybe blow up your GI Joes with firecrackers?

It's always funny how these flag-wavin' f*&$s who sing God-bless America are always so threatened by freedom of expression (or in this case, freedom to protest), which is one of the major foundations of this country. There are few things that are more uniquely American, so why are these "patriots" and "freedom lovers" so hell-bent on trying to thwart this poor woman's inalienable right?

(to those on the right: yes, I know she's making her private pain public...but the more you complain about the protest, the more you call attention to her, which is exactly what she (and the left) want: more awareness about the anti-war movement. So just chill and let her exercise her right to protest quietly for the next couple of weeks)

[the happy prole]

She is not the least bit interested in a legitimate or honest answer from Bush.

[Sofa King]

back to topic. thought you MM fans and foes would like to hear that one. his next movie is apparently about drug companies and prescription drugs and their marketing. i hope my sister makes it in the film calling him a tool! [\threadjacking]


Well, I'm sure the drug companies are proud to have you on their side.

You can say all you want about Moore and his agenda. Although he is biased and misguided at times in his practices to fight for the oppressed working man and against corporate corruption, at least he is doing something he believes in.

What are you doing Big Sugar? Defending rapists, muderers, and drug dealers? A bit of the same.

If you aren't doing that now, I'm sure you have before.

I think it is rather obvious who the tool is.

[Handy Smurf]

Well, I'm sure the drug companies are proud to have you on their side.

You can say all you want about Moore and his agenda. Although he is biased in his practices to fight for the oppressed working man and against corporate corruption, at least he is doing something he believes in.

Making money hand over fist?
Trying to further his own political agenda through what amounts, at times, to propaganda?

[joebob]

People on this board never cease to amaze me with their railing against people exercising their freedoms of speech, expression and assembly. So you wouldn't do it yourself, or in the same way. How would you? Oh, we know the answers - you're better than that, you wouldn't have the same problem or skewed view of the scenario, you'd fully understand the situation and consequences, you'd be too considerate.

Wind.

Trashing people that exercise their freedoms - what is that? And the more people agree with them, the more you harp? You're pathetic excuses for free citizens, and in essence, exactly the kind of citizenry the people in power prefer - apathetic, half-educated workplace peons doing just enough to get by with your own skin in tact. You're as much a part of the problem as anyone.

[BigSugar]

What are you doing Big Sugar? Defending rapists, muderers, and drug dealers? A bit of the same.

If you aren't doing that now, I'm sure you have before.

I think it is rather obvious who the tool is.

yes. yes. and yes. in fact, spent about 2 hours with a person accused of rape last night. i forgot that my job was to simply hand people over to the jails without a fair trial and proof beyond a reasonable doubt. my bad. thanx for setting me straight. wow. all these years and i've had it wrong the whole time. golly, how will i ever thank you.

in trial, i never subborn perjury or submit false or made up evidence to a jury. Michael Moore has done all those things in his movies and submitted them to the public (ie: jury) as "evidence". you be the judge. tool.

[drworm8]

I love Tool.

when is that new album coming out?

[LOakley]

Well, I've been called an idiot more often here than any other time in my life.

The people I know who were against the war from the start, are all still against the war... some more vocal than others.

Most of the people I know who were for the war at the start (and this is a great majority of the people), now look at the war with a mixture of disbelief and sadness. No more "we're there protecting ourselves and the Iraqi people".

But here is my paradox...

There are just a really hardcore 10% who just don't get it. They are the ones who would do no more of a sacrifice than put a yellow ribbon on their SUV. They are the ones who thinking nothing of sending other people's kids over to fight their war.

As I said above, some more vocal than others. Although I was always strongly against this war, it didn't hit home until after all those kids from Ohio were killed in Iraq a couple of weks ago. When I read about the guy who joined the reserves to get money to go to college and had a 7-week old son when he died, I can't stay quiet any longer.

THE MOST pro-war person I know has three pictures of Bush in his office and sometimes as a screen saver. He has a son who just graduated college with a new born. The dead people didn't even faze him. Amazing. He is just oblivious of he hurt that is happening in Iraq. Nothing bad is going to happen to his family during this war.

But none-the-less, people are dying, and I don't have a clue why. And what's worse, the people responsible aren't acknowleging the pain they are infilicting.

And that's why I said "Is this a war YOU are willing to die for? If not, don't send others to die for you."

I'm in my 40s. Most of the people I know are between 30 and 60. I'm getting old enough now to see people in their late teens as children of my friends. Ture, it is the kid's decision to enlist. But even if they die a hero, they are still dead. And to their parents, they are still kids.

[Smoker29]

This just in from Drudge: http://drudgereport.com/flash3.htm

CINDY UNLEASHED: 'THE BIGGEST TERRORIST IN THE WORLD IS GEORGE W. BUSH'
Wed Aug 17 2005 21:51:56 ET

"We are not waging a war on terror in this country. We’re waging a war of terror. The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush!"

So declared Cindy Sheehan earlier this year during a rally at at San Francisco State University.

Sheehan, who is demanding a second meeting with Bush, stated: "We are waging a nuclear war in Iraq right now. That country is contaminated. It will be contaminated for practically eternity now."

Sheehan unleashed a foul-mouth tirade on April 27, 2005:

"They’re a bunch of fucking hypocrites! And we need to, we just need to rise up..." Sheehan said of the Bush administration.

"If George Bush believes his rhetoric and his bullshit, that this is a war for freedom and democracy, that he is spreading freedom and democracy, does he think every person he kills makes Iraq more free?"

"The whole world is damaged. Our humanity is damaged. If he thinks that it’s so important for Iraq to have a U.S.-imposed sense of freedom and democracy, then he needs to sign up his two little party-animal girls. They need to go to this war."

Like I said earlier, go crazy Cindy, get it all out.

But...can you see why the Pres. won't meet with her?

[Sovrana]

Like I said earlier, go crazy Cindy, get it all out.

But...can you see why the Pres. won't meet with her?

I sort of think that with all of Bush's secret service there would be a way to handle a meeting with her so no one gets hurt. Though I know what you mean. I can't speak for Sheehan, but if I was a mother who lost a child in this war, Bush would be better off not meeting me.

A mother's rage is not the anger she may feel towards her naughty child but the the perfect storm waged against those that harm that child.

[tobedawg]

It's Over!! Time to move on..

From the get-go, I mentioned that Cindy Sheehan's character could be easily assassinated by the Right-Wing machine because she had previously met with Bush and the more coverage that she received, the more the Right-Wing would dig up the dirt and discredit her..

I respect Cindy Sheehan for, unlike most liberals, getting off her ass and fighting back!!!

[GQuagmire]

What kind of grown man gets his jollies out of runnin' over shit with a truck?? You're 46 years old!! That's the kind of stuff that idiot 16 year olds do. Are you going to go out and smash some mailboxes later?? Maybe blow up your GI Joes with firecrackers?


Okay, I believe this is yet another example of things being taken out of context so that one side can see things they WANT to see them. Isn't this the guy who LIVES in Crawford and who stated his motive was simply that he is sick and tired of the media circus this has created and wants it gone? If this is the same guy (and I think it is), he made it clear it was not a political statement, but of course those on the left are making it out to be.

[tobedawg]

Okay, I believe this is yet another example of things being taken out of context so that one side can see things they WANT to see them. Isn't this the guy who LIVES in Crawford and who stated his motive was simply that he is sick and tired of the media circus this has created and wants it gone? If this is the same guy (and I think it is), he made it clear it was not a political statement, but of course those on the left are making it out to be.

Whatever.. Maybe he should have ran over some actual U.S. Soldiers while he was at it... Great way to support our troops, bucko!

[BigSugar]

Well, I've been called an idiot more often here than any other time in my life.

i find that hard to believe.

Most of the people I know who were for the war at the start (and this is a great majority of the people), now look at the war with a mixture of disbelief and sadness. No more "we're there protecting ourselves and the Iraqi people".

you of course have commissioned this scientific poll and have results to show us, right? i'm sure this just isn't your opinion colored with the view from where you currently sit, right? of course not.

There are just a really hardcore 10% who just don't get it. They are the ones who would do no more of a sacrifice than put a yellow ribbon on their SUV. They are the ones who thinking nothing of sending other people's kids over to fight their war.

give me an R! Give me an H! Give me an E! Give me a.......ah fuck it, i'm too tired. RHETORIC!!

As I said above, some more vocal than others. Although I was always strongly against this war, it didn't hit home until after all those kids from Ohio were killed in Iraq a couple of weks ago.

so, until it "hit home" with some kids dying from near where you live, you were willing to keep quiet? talk about hypocrisy.

When I read about the guy who joined the reserves to get money to go to college and had a 7-week old son when he died, I can't stay quiet any longer.

ummm.........the federal govt. gives all kinds of grants and low interest loans to go to college. When you join the reserves, you sign on for potentially being called up to go to war and die in combat. It says so right on the contract. This is such a bullshit argument, but one which the anti-bush crowd seems to love to keep pushing. it makes you look stupid.

THE MOST pro-war person I know has three pictures of Bush in his office and sometimes as a screen saver. He has a son who just graduated college with a new born. The dead people didn't even faze him. Amazing. He is just oblivious of he hurt that is happening in Iraq. Nothing bad is going to happen to his family during this war.

i agree. the dead should not be so easily dismissed or forgotten, nor should the legitimate reasons behind their sacrifice (or the not so legitimate ones for that matter...history is a learning tool). and anyone that has a W screensaver needs therapy.

And that's why I said "Is this a war YOU are willing to die for? If not, don't send others to die for you."

no one ever asked FDR why he wasn't in Normandy on the beach with a rifle. No one ever asked Ike why he didn't put on the old uni and lead the charge in Korea. When JFK said that Vietnam was the greatest threat to the US and ramped up troop presence in anticipation of war, not a single person said "Why aren't you on your old PT boat leading the way!?" It's the job of a President to make the tough decisions to put soldiers in harms way. That's why we elect them to office; to make those decisions. not to carry a rifle and toss grenades at a skirmish line.

Ture, it is the kid's decision to enlist. But even if they die a hero, they are still dead. And to their parents, they are still kids.

true. same can be said of a kid that dies in a training accident in Colorado "training for war". if we only got rid of the military, we could eliminate the 1000 or so deaths that happen every year in training accidents stateside, and save a crapload on our budget. of course, then Canada would invade and we'd all have to watch hockey all night, every night on ESPN. talk about terrorism.

[LOakley]

[QUOTE=BigSugar]give me an R! Give me an H! Give me an E! Give me a.......ah fuck it, i'm too tired. RHETORIC!!QUOTE]

I don't post very often, so I don't know the rules quite yet.

Of course my post was rhetoric. I thought this was a message board and not a recitation of conservative blogs.

I try not be be confrontational. I'm sorry if my statement "Is this a war YOU are willing to die for? If not, don't send others to die for you." made you uncomfortable.

[BronxDJ]

ummm.........the federal govt. gives all kinds of grants and low interest loans to go to college. When you join the reserves, you sign on for potentially being called up to go to war and die in combat. It says so right on the contract. This is such a bullshit argument, but one which the anti-bush crowd seems to love to keep pushing. it makes you look stupid.

Actually the Feds give much less in aid than they did wheni was a Miamian. Back in those days, there was also a National Direct Student Loan that was less than 3% interest and went directly to the students from the Feds. That was done away with in favor of GSLs in which the gov promised to pay banks if students defaulted on loans. The interest rate was higher and the banks, by positioning themselves in the middle, made money.

The more debt we go into because of this war, the less there will be left of even the pittance that is available now to help students go to college. In many European countries, University education is free. Remember when we had a balanced budget under Clinton? But that was done on the backs of the poor as will resolving this defecit in a few years.

[Shimmercore]

ummm.........the federal govt. gives all kinds of grants and low interest loans to go to college. When you join the reserves, you sign on for potentially being called up to go to war and die in combat. It says so right on the contract. This is such a bullshit argument, but one which the anti-bush crowd seems to love to keep pushing. it makes you look stupid.


I have to agree with this.


In many European countries, University education is free.

Free college education and free health care are Europe's codewords for HIGHER TAXES.

[markalot]

Free college education and free health care are Europe's codewords for HIGHER TAXES.


Oh but whenever anyone talks about how europe has all these benefits they leave out the part about higher taxes and governments who are in financial crises due to the rising costs of all these perks.

[BronxDJ]

When I go to DC and enter any of the Smithsonian museums, I am glad that my taxes allow me to do this. What I don't like my taxes doing is paying for a military and war that is killing tens of thousands - US soldiers and citizens all over.

[tobedawg]

Looks like the Swift Boat Veteran type ads are coming back.. THIS time to coutner Cindy Sheehan..

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3475

[BigSugar]

I try not be be confrontational. I'm sorry if my statement "Is this a war YOU are willing to die for? If not, don't send others to die for you." made you uncomfortable.

not uncomfortable at all. i just hate that bullshit line of crap you're trying to feed people and am willing to stand up and stomp on it.

FYI. Yes. I would die for my country if the need arose. I'd go all "Red Dawn"/Patrick Swayze on their (collective "their" as in "enemies of my country") asses. and if you were a collaborator (which i'm sure you would be), i'd put a bullet in the back of your skull too in order to further protect this country.

like i said. it's all Rhetoric. I can tell you that i'd gladly die for my country and who the hell can say different, right? opinions are like a$$holes......right?

[joebob]

if you were a collaborator (which i'm sure you would be), i'd put a bullet in the back of your skull too in order to further protect this country.
You should be reported to the moderator for this one. It doesn't matter how big you spell "if," that's out of line.

[BigSugar]

Looks like the Swift Boat Veteran type ads are coming back.. THIS time to coutner Cindy Sheehan..

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=3475

wow. really great objective source with seriously great sources to back it up. good job tobe. another in a long line of solid source material for us to chew on. did they ever find the shooter on the grassy knoll? just wondering.

[BigSugar]

You should be reported to the moderator for this one. It doesn't matter how big you spell "if," that's out of line.

turn my flag right side up and maybe i'd listen to your drivel. i guess you have no idea what "sarcasm" is? do you? if you were a green martian and attacked my monkey, i'd put a bullet in the back of your head too.

did you see "Red Dawn"? do you even have any idea what scene i'm making light of? good god, what a dolt.

[joebob]

turn my flag right side up and maybe i'd listen to your drivel. i guess you have no idea what "sarcasm" is? do you? if you were a green martian and attacked my monkey, i'd put a bullet in the back of your head too.

did you see "Red Dawn"? do you even have any idea what scene i'm making light of? good god, what a dolt.
I restrict my pop-culture references to John Cusack-caliber and up. :p

This flag is the logo for "American Recordings," Rick Rubin's label and host of some of my favorite albums of all-time. I like that it doubles for a version of the international signal for distress, signified by an upside-down flag. Distressed, come to think of it, is how a lot of this country feels.

[BigSugar]

I restrict my pop-culture references to John Cusack-caliber and up. :p

ahhhhhh......just like a liberal. "Say Anything". ;)

[LOakley]

not uncomfortable at all. i just hate that bullshit line of crap you're trying to feed people and am willing to stand up and stomp on it.

FYI. Yes. I would die for my country if the need arose. I'd go all "Red Dawn"/Patrick Swayze on their (collective "their" as in "enemies of my country") asses. and if you were a collaborator (which i'm sure you would be), i'd put a bullet in the back of your skull too in order to further protect this country.

like i said. it's all Rhetoric. I can tell you that i'd gladly die for my country and who the hell can say different, right? opinions are like a$$holes......right?

You made me laugh.

You don't know me at all, and you make the most insane statements about me.

[Smoker29]

Oh no...here come the movie stars.... Click Here (http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=+candlelight+vigil+in+the+North+Hollywood +&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&c=news_photos)

Also, it looks like Cindy is packing up. (For now...)

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/18/D8C2G5EG0.html

[LOakley]

not uncomfortable at all. i just hate that bullshit line of crap you're trying to feed people and am willing to stand up and stomp on it.

FYI. Yes. I would die for my country if the need arose. I'd go all "Red Dawn"/Patrick Swayze on their (collective "their" as in "enemies of my country") asses. and if you were a collaborator (which i'm sure you would be), i'd put a bullet in the back of your skull too in order to further protect this country.

like i said. it's all Rhetoric. I can tell you that i'd gladly die for my country and who the hell can say different, right? opinions are like a$$holes......right?

All sarcasm aside, I truly believe you would die for your country.

So would I. My Grandfather enlisted in the army for WWI and he wasn't even a US citizen at the time. My father enlisted in the army for WWII the day he was eligible. He was in a unit that liberated one of the concentration camps, and as a Jewish GI, and he still has nightmares 60 years later.

But we both know that neither one of us thinks the Iraq war is a war worth getting personally maimed or killed for. If it was, we both would be doing the "1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year" thing in Iraq for the next year +.

So if we don't feel it's important enough for us to go there, who should go instead? And why should we advocate at the top of our lungs a policy that we don't agree to follow?

Iraq has been botched since well before 9/11. Condi Rice got promoted. Paul Wolfowitz got promoted. Donald Rumsfeld and Andrew Card are still at their positions. Dick Cheney was renominated for VP.

I don't think Bush is solely responsible for the failed policy in Iraq. He does what others tell him. The people who are mostly responsible for this continuing ineptitude in Iraq are his political supporters. This war was and always will be a political war.

The attacks on Cindy Sheehan, the no pictures of coffins, the no televised media coverage of the medical hospitals and of the Iraqi civilians, all have their purpose in maintaining positive PR. But as a by-product, it prevents the inevitable re-tooling of Bush's war-time policy and staff. Sadly, until critical mass is reached and speaks out and prevents Bush from governing, it's going to be much more of the same in Iraq.

One last note, I know there are veterans out there who read this board. You can't imagine how much I respect you. You put your life on the line for your convictions. You didn't stay home and cheerlead while you let others make the sacrifice. I strongly disagree with this war. But you did what you thought was good and just, and I commend you for it.

[twentyshots]

*Cues Battle Hymn of the Republic*

not uncomfortable at all. i just hate that bullshit line of crap you're trying to feed people and am willing to stand up and stomp on it.

...Rising to crescendo...

FYI. Yes. I would die for my country if the need arose. I'd go all "Red Dawn"/Patrick Swayze on their (collective "their" as in "enemies of my country") asses. and if you were a collaborator (which i'm sure you would be), i'd put a bullet in the back of your skull too in order to further protect this country.

...big finish...

like i said. it's all Rhetoric. I can tell you that i'd gladly die for my country and who the hell can say different, right? opinions are like a$$holes......right?

[BigSugar]

"Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the gourd........"

[Slar]

It looks like Cindy is packing up. (For now...)

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/18/D8C2G5EG0.html"The grieving woman who started an anti-war demonstration near President Bush's ranch nearly two weeks ago said Thursday she was leaving because her mother had a stroke.

Cindy Sheehan told reporters she had just received the phone call and was leaving immediately to be with her 74-year-old mother at a Los Angeles hospital."

I'm sure the administration is behind this. Will those right-wingers stop at nothing?!? :mad:

Bada Bing! Thank you! Thank you. Hey, I'm here all night.

[LOakley]

Cindy Sheehan told reporters she had just received the phone call and was leaving immediately to be with her 74-year-old mother at a Los Angeles hospital."

I'm sure the administration is behind this. Will those right-wingers stop at nothing?!? :mad:

Bada Bing! Thank you! Thank you. Hey, I'm here all night.

Please no. There are things not to joke about. Even in politics.

[Smoker29]

Cindy speaks out again... http://drudgereport.com/flash.htm

CINDY SHEEHAN CALLS FOR U.S TO 'PULL OUR TROOPS OUT OF OCCUPIED NEW ORLEANS'
Mon Sep 12 2005 12:42:11 ET

Celebrity anti-war protester, fresh off inking a lucrative deal with Speaker's Bureau, has demanded at the HUFFINGTON POST and MICHAEL MOORE'S website that the United States military must immediately leave 'occupied' New Orleans.

"I do not care if a human being is black, brown, white, yellow or pink. I don't care if a human being is Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or pagan. I don't care what flag a person salutes: if a human being is hungry, then it is up to another human being to feed him/her. George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq, and excuse his self from power. The only way America will become more secure is if we have a new administration that cares about Americans even if they donÕt fall into the top two percent of the wealthiest."

Sheehan is in the middle of a bus trip across America in support of her cause.

Developing...

I really hope Cindy seeks help soon if she hasn't already.

You know what pisses me off? I'm not pissed off at the people who agree with her. That's fine. I'm pissed at the people who are just using this woman to push their agenda. The day she decides to blow her head off, do you think they'll take any responsibility? I doubt it... They'll just continue to use her.

[Shlep]

Cindy speaks out again... http://drudgereport.com/flash.htm

CINDY SHEEHAN CALLS FOR U.S TO 'PULL OUR TROOPS OUT OF OCCUPIED NEW ORLEANS'
Mon Sep 12 2005 12:42:11 ET

Celebrity anti-war protester, fresh off inking a lucrative deal with Speaker's Bureau, has demanded at the HUFFINGTON POST and MICHAEL MOORE'S website that the United States military must immediately leave 'occupied' New Orleans.

"I do not care if a human being is black, brown, white, yellow or pink. I don't care if a human being is Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or pagan. I don't care what flag a person salutes: if a human being is hungry, then it is up to another human being to feed him/her. George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans and Iraq, and excuse his self from power. The only way America will become more secure is if we have a new administration that cares about Americans even if they donÕt fall into the top two percent of the wealthiest."

Sheehan is in the middle of a bus trip across America in support of her cause.

Developing...

She is apparently unaware that armed soldiers have been deployed to the scene of just about every major disaster of at least the last 100 years to do what they're doing now: protect lives and property and maintain order.

And Bush has accepted responsibility, repeatedly. And while he may be late, he's got people working on a massive relief effort.

Cindy is off her goddam rocker. I feel for the woman, but I know plenty of people who've experienced the sudden, violent loss of a loved one who did not believe that the event made them an expert on everything.

The day she decides to blow her head off, do you think they'll take any responsibility? I doubt it... They'll just continue to use her.

They'll blame Bush. His refusal to take a (second) meeting with her will be bandied around as proof positive that he's a callous, unfeeling bastard who watched the woman unravel and become suicidal.

"Oh, if only he could've been bothered to meet with her for a few minutes..."

[markalot]

F R E E . N E W . O R L E A N S

[BigSugar]

Kurt Russell is Snake Pliskin in "Escape from Bourbon Street"!!!

[back2vinyl]

Kurt Russell is Snake Pliskin in "Escape from Bourbon Street"!!!

Snake Pliskin? I thought he was dead?

Dude, someone must make this movie. I'm jonesin' for some Snake Pliskin.

[seafoamgreen]

Snake Pliskin? I thought he was dead?

Dude, someone must make this movie. I'm jonesin' for some Snake Pliskin.

Start praying to John Carpenter. God knows he has the bad taste to do it.

i'm still praying for a sequel to Big Trouble in little China. so it might take bribes.