Jeff Francoeur - PHENOM !!!

[The Ugly Thief]

Jeff Francoeur - Atlanta Braves (RF) - he came up from AA on July 7th & promptly hit a HR in his debut. He has since been batting .419 w/ 8 HR & 21 RBIs. 12 out of 23 of the games he's played in have been multi-hit games. He just went 4 for 4 the other night.

I know the saying "It's easy to get to the majors. The hard part is staying up there.", but this kid is amazing.

v

[the happy prole]

He hasn't drawn a single walk yet. Pitchers are going to exploit that weakness pretty soon, and he'll come back down to Earth.

Don't get me wrong-- I think almost everyone agrees Francouer is the real deal. I'm sure he'll be an all-star at least once in his career, probably more than once. And he could be an awful lot better than that, even.

But it's too early to say he's arrived. Just as it would be way too early to give up on Marte.

As long as we're talking prospects-- Felix Hernandez of the Mariners looks like he's got a couple Cy Youngs coming his way in the future.

[The Sheck]

I know the saying "It's easy to get to the majors. The hard part is staying up there.", but this kid is amazing.

v

Two words: Kevin Maas.

Enough said.

[The Ugly Thief]

He hasn't drawn a single walk yet. Pitchers are going to exploit that weakness pretty soon, and he'll come back down to Earth.
you're absolutely correct of course. I don't understand why pitchers even throw it near the plate whenever he comes up to bat. However, one thing you have to consider is that A LOT of his hits come from pitches that are out of the strike zone. I've seen him golf so many HRs already from pitches that would have probably hit the plate if he didn't swing at them.

No doubt about it, he needs to be more disciplined at the plate. But the important part is that he obviously has a wealth of raw talent.

right now the kid is reminding me of Vlad Guerroro - he'll swing at ANYTHING & he's got a cannon for an arm

v

[The Ugly Thief]

Two words: Kevin Maas.

Enough said.

:p

hehe

v

[the happy prole]

Yeah, given that he swings at everything his K rate is actually pretty well under control. That's evidence of his talent right there.

He was batting like .260 in AA when he got called up, too. I thought it was way too early for him, although I have to admit I'm probably biased because I reeaaally wanted to see him play here in Richmond. Just goes to show that Cox and those guys know what they're doing.

He's been lucky as crap-- no way is he (or anyone, for that matter) *this* good, but he hasn't looked overmatched or tenative at the plate at all.

[The Sheck]

As long as we're talking prospects-- Felix Hernandez of the Mariners looks like he's got a couple Cy Youngs coming his way in the future.

I don't know, man. Anyone can become Cy Young when they play the Twins as of late.

[Jonathan]

Two words: Kevin Maas.

Enough said.
I was actually thinking more Chris Jones myself.

[The Ugly Thief]

He's been lucky as crap-- no way is he (or anyone, for that matter) *this* good, but he hasn't looked overmatched or tenative at the plate at all.
again, i totally agree w/ you. He's definitely been lucky. He's gotten a bunch of hits that very easily could have been double plays ... and some hits that could have been caught in other situations. So, I have also been very hesitant to start holding him up and saying "HERE"S THE NEXT PHENOM !!!".

but damn, the kid comes through in a lot of situations ! I'll say this : his hitting is going to be the thing that he'll obviously have to make some adjustments with. Right now, the Braves probably don't know what the hell do to with him because how are you going to give advice to someone who is batting .419 ? But he'll def. have to make some adjustments to his batting habits eventually. But as far as his defense goes, he's there. You can tell the kid has skills there & I even think he has a better arm than Andruw Jones.

v

[Homsar]

People say he is a gifted athelete.

[The Ugly Thief]

anybody else see him gun-down Luiz Gonzalez at home TWICE today ? One was a tag attempt on a fly to right. The other was an attempt to score from 2nd on a base hit. He was dead by a step both times. Neither throw even bounced.

Francouer hit another HR also

v

[The Sheck]

Has he walked yet? ;) To me, that's the amazing stat through all of this. Doesn't bode well for the 'ole OBP if this keeps up.

[Handy Smurf]

People say he is a gifted athelete.
:p

Seriously, UTh, this guy is no big deal

[blahdre]

Has he walked yet? ;) To me, that's the amazing stat through all of this. Doesn't bode well for the 'ole OBP if this keeps up.

his OBP is at a cool .394 :cool:

i guess pitchers just keep dealin him strikes and he keeps smashing homers and liners

[The Ugly Thief]

i guess pitchers just keep dealin him strikes and he keeps smashing homers and liners
I keep saying this : most of his hits come from pitches that are NOT strikes. The HR he hit yesterday was a very low pitch.

If I was a pitcher I would throw every pitch to him at the chest or higher.

v

[blahdre]

I keep saying this : most of his hits come from pitches that are NOT strikes. The HR he hit yesterday was a very low pitch.

If I was a pitcher I would throw every pitch to him at the chest or higher.

v


i guess he's been watching too much Vladdy

the one kind of funny thing ESPN has been doing lately on Angels highlights is to show the Vlad Zone in addition to the regular strike zone. im sure he could hit an opposite field homer on a pitchout if he really wanted to...

[The Ugly Thief]

Has he walked yet? ;) To me, that's the amazing stat through all of this. Doesn't bode well for the 'ole OBP if this keeps up.
The guy has 2 assists at home plate & then hits a HR - but of course the IMPORTANT thing : did he get a walk yet ?

like blahdre said, his OBP is .394. Also, after just 28 games, he's already tied for 2nd for rookie HRs. So, we're not too anxious to see him walk.

v

[The Sheck]

The guy has 2 assists at home plate & then hits a HR - but of course the IMPORTANT thing : did he get a walk yet ?

like blahdre said, his OBP is .394. Also, after just 28 games, he's already tied for 2nd for rookie HRs. So, we're not too anxious to see him walk.

v

His OBP is .394 because his batting average is .394. When he comes back to earth and hits below .300, his OBP is gonna be ugly.

Walks are a indicator of success usually. Controlling the strike zone is the most important thing a hitter can do. It's not going to last. Pitchers are gonna figure him out soon, and he's going to tank unless he makes adjustments, aka controlling the strike zone. Every hitter goes through this.

[The Ugly Thief]

Walks are a indicator of success usually.

how many walks does Vlad Guerrero have this year ? wasn't he in the All-Star game again ?

Pitchers are gonna figure him out soon, and he's going to tank unless he makes adjustments, aka controlling the strike zone. Every hitter goes through this.
I'm pretty sure we spoke about this earlier in the thread.

v

[Handy Smurf]

His OBP is .394 because his batting average is .394. When he comes back to earth and hits below .300, his OBP is gonna be ugly.

Walks are a indicator of success usually. Controlling the strike zone is the most important thing a hitter can do. It's not going to last. Pitchers are gonna figure him out soon, and he's going to tank unless he makes adjustments, aka controlling the strike zone. Every hitter goes through this.
This is the key. Pujols wouldve been worthy of having a thread dedicated to him at this point in his rookie season, but Francour has a looooong way to go to prove he can be a star in the bigs

[The Sheck]

how many walks does Vlad Guerrero have this year?

More than your boy, that's for sure.

wasn't he in the All-Star game again ?

Jeff Franceour has probably a better chance of turning into Gregg Jefferies at this point. Let's see where Franceour is in five years before we make unreasonable comparisons, yes?

[jcarwash31]

how many walks does Vlad Guerrero have this year ?
He has 122 hits, 32 BB (11 are IBB), 6 HBP in 376 AB and 417 PA. That gives him a .324 AVG and .384 OBP.

[The Ugly Thief]

hey, i'm not saying the kid is going to hit .350 - .400 all season. What I am saying is that he's going to be an amazing player - and not just because of what he can do w/ his bat, but also for what he is capable of in the field.

I'm pretty sure that his arm & fielding talent aren't going to "tank" no matter what may happen at the plate.

only idiots like Chuck Knoblauch forget how to throw a baseball

v

[jcarwash31]

only idiots like Chuck Knoblauch forget how to throw a baseball

v
Carefull what you say. You're mother might get hit in the face by an errant throw.

[The Sheck]

I'm pretty sure that his arm & fielding talent aren't going to "tank" no matter what may happen at the plate.

Awesome! Francoeur is the next Midre Cummings. THAT might actually be a worthy comparison.

[the happy prole]

The thing about walks is IF you are one the rare players with the ability to hit anything, you don't have to draw them.

Guerrero doesn't walk OR strike out much because he's got a fast bat and enough strength to golf homers. Thome on the other hand walks AND strikes out a ton.

Both those players have good K/BB ratios. Vlad has a wider zone where he can hit pitches but he still won't chase outside his comfort zone. Thome, on the other hand will sit there and wait forever. If you throw it his wheelhouse it's gone. If it isn't where he feels comfortable, he won't swing-- even if it's a strike.

[The Ugly Thief]

Awesome! Francoeur is the next Midre Cummings. THAT might actually be a worthy comparison.well, seeing how Midre Cummings hit 22 HRs in 10 seasons & Francoeur has hit 9 in 28 games, I'd say it's a very unworthy comparison.

v

[The Sheck]

well, seeing how Midre Cummings hit 22 HRs in 10 seasons & Francoeur has hit 9 in 28 games, I'd say it's a very unworthy comparison.

v

Sure it is! You don't know where Francouer is going to end up. He could step on a seam in the OF, blow out his knee and never be the same player again. It's silly to compare a rookie to whatever HoF player is out there, because 9 times out of 10 it doesn't work out.

[The Ugly Thief]

You don't know where Francouer is going to end up. He could step on a seam in the OF, blow out his knee and never be the same player again.so now you're saying that I shouldn't talk about his great talent or even think of him as a future All-Star because he may get injured ?

now that's intelligent

v

[The Sheck]

so now you're saying that I shouldn't talk about his great talent or even think of him as a future All-Star because he may get injured ?

now that's intelligent

v

No, what's intelligent is being realistic about the kid. Look, I've seen him play too, and at this point, he's looking pretty good. But 100 ABs isn't enough for a fair assessment of his abilities. How will he react over a full season? What happens when teams get the opportunity to get a full scouting report on him, or start exploiting his weaknesses, which he does have? I'm just saying it makes more sense to judge him based on those contexts.

[the happy prole]

Yeah, but Francouer is not just your average rookie who got lucky. He was arguably a phenom before he ever took an MLB at-bat. The guy was about as hyped up as you can be for someone who just starting AA this season.

It's really not that surprising to see Francouer do well; it's just surprising that it was this early. But really he could absolutely stink it up next year and breakout in 2007 and scouts would still consider him "on schedule."

I personally believe he will be an all-star and would put an even-money bet on it without hesitation. There are less talented hackers but a combination of luck and surrounding lineups get them to there. *ahem* Alfonso Soriano.

I still think he's gonna slump really, really hard at some point this year.

[Handy Smurf]

Awesome! Francoeur is the next Midre Cummings. THAT might actually be a worthy comparison.
Ha, he spent about 2 months with the Reds
:p

[The Ugly Thief]

a triple and a HR last night as well as another assist, this time at 2nd base

he's now in 2nd place in the majors for total assists - not just among rookies, but everyone

v

[Homsar]

I can't believe he's had all those opportunities for assists.
I mean WHO gets TWO chances to throw the same guy out at home plate in one game?
We'll see just how good he is next year.

[the happy prole]

That's why assists are a stupid stat. You know who leads the majors in outfield assists? Manny Ramirez. People run on Manny because he stinks.

They run on Francouer because they're testing the rookie. To his credit, he's made them pay and yes he does have a cannon for an arm. But it's not like he's so spectacular that he's gunned out the same number of runners as Ichiro in half the games.

[The Ugly Thief]

I can't believe he's had all those opportunities for assists.
he gets the opportunities because he manages to get to the ball quicker than is anticipated. A bunch of his assists have been balls hit into the RF corner that should have been stand up doubles, but he got to the ball very quickly & turned it into a play.

He's missed having about 3 or 4 more assists by just a hair.

v

[jcarwash31]

He's missed having about 3 or 4 more assists by just a hair.
So has every other outfielder.

[The Ugly Thief]

So has every other outfielder.true, but they're usually not close plays that shouldn't have been close at all such as the ones I'm referring to by Francoeur

v

[The Sheck]

true, but they're usually not close plays that shouldn't have been close at all such as the ones I'm referring to by Francoeur

v

What will make this thread die faster? Trying to convince TUT that Francouer is probably not as good as his stats indicate, or just letting him win every argument? I vote for the latter.

[The Ugly Thief]

What will make this thread die faster? Trying to convince TUT that Francouer is probably not as good as his stats indicate, or just letting him win every argument? I vote for the latter.I'm guessing a lot of idiotic & meaningless posts by The Sheck might do the trick.

now go over to my other threads in the forum & keep making stupid & completely irrelevent posts to try & kill them as well. You're really good at that.

v

[The Ugly Thief]

What will make this thread die faster? Trying to convince TUT that Francouer is probably not as good as his stats indicate, or just letting him win every argument? I vote for the latter.I'm guessing a lot of meaningless posts by The Sheck might do the trick.

now go over to my other threads in the forum & keep making idiotic & completely irrelevent posts to try & kill them as well. You're really good at that.

v

[The Sheck]

You're really good at that.

But you're really horrible at insults. Oh, sweet irony!

[Handy Smurf]

Go Steelers!

Whoops, wrong thread








:p

[the happy prole]

Jeff Francoeur, 2005:

.220 BA, 23 K's, 0(!) walks. Also leading the league in swinging at first pitches.

That's ridiculously awful. They really need to send him back to AAA, and not even think about him again until September call-ups. Too bad Kelly Johnson is injured.

[Artpunchehorse]

Jeff Francoeur, 2005:

.220 BA, 23 K's, 0(!) walks. Also leading the league in swinging at first pitches.

That's ridiculously awful. They really need to send him back to AAA, and not even think about him again until September call-ups. Too bad Kelly Johnson is injured.

I think it is obvious the league caught up to him. He'll never be more than a 4th outfielder for the rest of his career

[blahdre]

I think it is obvious the league caught up to him. He'll never be more than a 4th outfielder for the rest of his career

the kid is 22 years old. it's a little early to make that assumption...

[Artpunchehorse]

Awesome! Francoeur is the next Midre Cummings. THAT might actually be a worthy comparison.

He'd kill to be Midre Cummings right now

[c-lando]

How about that walk-off Grand Slam on Saturday??? Lovely...

This town is IN LOVE with Frenchie.

[The Ugly Thief]

I think it is obvious the league caught up to him. He'll never be more than a 4th outfielder for the rest of his career
he has more HRs (7) & RBIs (31) than Bonds

in his first full season in the majors he's on pace to hit 28HR & 120RBI

yeah, what a loser - we better send his ass back to the minors ASAP

v

[c-lando]

Frenchie did it for us again last night. Woohoo!

[c-lando]

2 homers to sweep the Marlins yesterday afternoon. And his hitting streak continues to 16 games...

[Artpunchehorse]

2 homers to sweep the Marlins yesterday afternoon. And his hitting streak continues to 16 games...

Does it really count against the Marlins

[c-lando]

Does it really count against the Marlins

Yes, it does count.

[The Ugly Thief]

Does it really count against the Marlins
wow, great comeback

some advice : next time you've already shown ppl how clueless you really are just quietly duck out of the thread

and btw, that advice also applies to all of the other sports threads where you've made yourself look like a complete fool

v

[Jake_Barnes]

Ugh, Jeff Francoeur is perhaps the most overrated player in the game today. I'm getting sick of the guy. The only players with a worse OBP than his impressive .260 are Angel Berroa, Juan Uribe, Clint Barmes, and good ol' Rondell White. Pretty exclusive company there.

[c-lando]

Thanks for not rubbing it in, Guys.

We are IN THE TOILET.

[Jim Schue]

Good ballplayer, but until he learns a bit more patience at the plate, I'm not ready to crown him "the next big thing." With only six walks in 300 ABs, it's not too hard to see why he's hitting .250 so far with a .269 OBP.

That being said, at his age, he has lots of time to improve. Who's Atlanta's hitting coach?

[The Ugly Thief]

Who's Atlanta's hitting coach?
Terry Pendleton

v

[Jim Schue]

Terry Pendleton

v
DOH! Don't know why I forgot that. Thanks!

[the happy prole]

Yeah, there's a lot of depressed Braves fans around here right now. I feel bad for them, except for the guy who was a complete asshole about it when the Cubs lost eight straight earlier this year.

I've seen the R-Braves a couple of times this year and they are truly terrible, so there's not much immediate help coming either.

But on the bright side, McCann's looking fantastic, Diaz is holding his own and they've got some impressive players in the low minors. If Joey Devine can get healthy it will solve their bullpen issues. The future looks good, but unfortunately it'll probably be 2008 before it really gets exciting.

[Homsar]

The end of the Braves domination of the division is finally over.
For now.

[Jim Schue]

The end of the Braves domination of the division is finally over.
For now.
I hope you're right. They've had their time. They need to get the hell out of the way for someone else.

[Handy Smurf]

Yeah, there's a lot of depressed Braves fans around here right now.

Whats a Braves fan?

Oh, you mean one of those 6 dozen people that actually show up to games when the team is playing well?



:D

[c-lando]

Alright, Bobby Cox.
122 career ejections! Woohoo!

[Jim Schue]

Whats a Braves fan?

Oh, you mean one of those 6 dozen people that actually show up to games when the team is playing well?



:D
Well, in Kentucky, as well as most of Tennessee, a Braves fan is someone who was a Reds fan until 1991.

[c-lando]

From the AJC today...

Francoeur presses to impress
By Terence Moore| Thursday, July 6, 2006, 05:58 PM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

It could be worse. Jeff Francoeur could be Bob Hamelin, the extra-large first baseman who zipped out of nowhere for the Kansas City Royals to do nice things before vanishing in a flash. He also could be Pat Listach, Gerald Young, Wally Bunker, Mark Fidrych and a slew of others who have plaques in the Joe Charboneau Hall of Fame for hype over substance.
But, no, Francoeur isn’t destined for such infamy. He isn’t on the road to Cooperstown, either, not with his free-swinging ways that have contributed to an on-base percentage so low that you need a microscope to find it. He was absolutely torrid with his Louisville Slugger for the longest time as a rookie. Now he is spending his sophomore year going from cold to hot to medium to wherever.
Wherever is a scary place when you’re a significant player on a team reeking during its search for a 15th consecutive division title. Francoeur has decent numbers (.258 average, 15 home runs and 60 RBIs after Thursday night’s 8-7, 10-inning win over the Cincinnati Reds at Turner Field), but not the blistering ones that could turn wherever into a happy place.
That’s why Friday, the first anniversary of Francoeur bursting into a Braves uniform as “The Natural,” according to a Sports Illustrated cover last August, he has become “The Bust,” according to that same magazine last week.
According to common sense, Francoeur is “The Work in Progress” as a gifted athlete from Lilburn seeking to smooth out a bunch of rough edges, both physically and mentally. Some guy named Pete Rose told me last summer that this might happen to Francoeur. Just like Rose, Cincinnati’s favorite son during his playing days with the Reds, Francoeur is obsessed with prospering before his hometown fans. Take, for instance, his rocket single to left field Thursday night in the bottom of the 10th for his third game-winning hit of the season at Turner Field.
Then again, Francoeur hasn’t a choice to provide such heroics. You needn’t go further than the outrageously lofty expectations that the choppers and the chanters had for the old Parkview High star after he flashed signs last summer of staying perfect forever. So, when he flirted with mediocrity earlier this year, those cheers became the ugliest of jeers.
“It’s tough. I can’t lie about that, but at the same time, I’d rather be in this situation than a lot of other situations,” said Francoeur, 22, who remained the Braves’ Wally Cleaver through it all. “It’s special to be able to play in your hometown and in front of your people that you grew up with. It couldn’t be anything more than I ever wanted. People are there at games because they want you to do well. So I try so hard at home, because you don’t want to disappoint anybody.”
Which brings us to the three Grand Canyons that separate Francoeur’s offensive numbers at Turner Field and elsewhere. Prior to Thursday night, he was hitting .304 at home and a ridiculous .216 on the road. He also finished last season with a tremendous gap between the two settings (.304 to .240). And the solution?
Concentration. That’s been as foreign to Francoeur as a base on balls, especially when Hank Aaron Drive isn’t near.
“When I was at Yankee Stadium [last month], I had a good series because I was so locked in, and I could see where you can take your game to the next level if you just lock in all the time,” Francoeur said. “At home, that’s something I tend to do, and sometimes I get on the road, I lose that a little bit. … My second half of the year, I want my road average to be right there with my home average. That’s my No. 1 goal for me, personally.”
Well, that and continuing with the mind-set on the field of his father’s all-time favorite player: Rose. Although Dave Francoeur grew up in Massachusetts worshiping the Red Sox, he marveled at Rose’s love affair with hustle and doing whatever it took to thrill his Cincinnati faithful.
In other words, the younger Francoeur hadn’t a choice but to became a Rose disciple. Since Jeff was just 2 years old when Rose retired as a player, he followed Rose’s career through video clips and publications. “He only knew one way to play, and that was all-out, which is why my favorite play ever was when he ran the catcher [Ray Fosse] over during that All-Star Game,” Francoeur, who did something almost as daring, said earlier this season.
Francoeur needed major facial surgery two years ago after his eye was damaged by an errant pitch in a minor-league game at Myrtle Beach. Still, on his first day back, he slid into second base with his nose leading the way.
Like Rose used to do. This is the same Rose who is baseball’s all-time hits king and who ended his sophomore season with only a .269 average. This also is the same Rose who finished that year with fewer home runs (four) and RBIs (34) than Francoeur has with less than a week to go until the All-Star break. So relax already.

[The Ugly Thief]

ok, that article tried waaaaaay too hard to try and draw parallels btwn Francoeur & Rose.

didn't work for me at all

they both played in front of their hometown
they both hustle

that's about where the similarities end as far as i can see

v

[Jim Schue]

ok, that article tried waaaaaay too hard to try and draw parallels btwn Francoeur & Rose.

didn't work for me at all

they both played in front of their hometown
they both hustle

that's about where the similarities end as far as i can see

v

Exactly. At least Rose knew how to be patient enough at the plate to draw an occasional walk.

[The Ugly Thief]

Exactly. At least Rose knew how to be patient enough at the plate to draw an occasional walk.
...and patient enough to not place his bets until juuuuust before game time.

A good gambler knows that's when the bookies offer the best odds.

v

[Jim Schue]

...and patient enough to not place his bets until juuuuust before game time.

A good gambler knows that's when the bookies offer the best odds.

v
Please enlighten me as to how that makes Francouer on par with Rose as a hitter, as the author of the cited article tried to allege. I think we're all pretty painfully aware of Pete's indiscretions by now. Got anything new to offer?

[The Ugly Thief]

Please enlighten me as to how that makes Francouer on par with Rose as a hitter
I didn't say it did.

maybe you forgot that i posted this earlier :

ok, that article tried waaaaaay too hard to try and draw parallels btwn Francoeur & Rose.

didn't work for me at all

they both played in front of their hometown
they both hustle

that's about where the similarities end as far as i can see

v

v

[Jim Schue]

I didn't say it did.

maybe you forgot that i posted this earlier :



v

Sorry man, too much beer on my brain last night.