Oh Raffy...

[The Sheck]

Rafael Palmeiro suspended for steroid use. (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-drugs-palmeiro&prov=ap&type=lgns)

One week after getting his 3,000th hit.

Here's a question fer ya. Is Palmeiro H.O.F. worthy?

[Jonathan]

Holy crap.

Wow. He was the one ballplayer who testified before Congress that I actually believed.

[Patas]

Holy crap.

Wow. He was the one ballplayer who testified before Congress that I actually believed.
Yeah me too. And by far my favorite player who was accused of steroid use.

[gwar469]

maybe Viagra comes up as steroids in a drug test...

what happens now with his congressional testimony? what if they prove he took steroids before he testified to Congress? is there some sort of crime against lying to Congress? <insert political joke here>...

seriously, all this has done is cause there to be increased scrutiny in players over the age of 35.

HOF, don't know yet. I wouldn't vote him in, simply because there's no way of knowing how much of his game is a result of the steroids, and how much was pure talent. 3000 hits is impressive regardless, but how many of those hits wouldn't be hits if not on steroids (line shots into the gap, HR's, off the fence shots, etc.)?

[jcarwash31]

He still denies it.

Palmeiro said he had accepted his punishment and could not explain how the steroids got into his body.

"I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period," he said. "Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body, the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program."

I believed him too, but who knows? He could have been juicing for years.

[Jonathan]

Upon further reflection...

Didn't he originally say that he didn't take Viagra, also? That he was just endorsing it as a "public service" for those baseball fans who might need it, but were too embarassed to talk publicly about it? And then it comes out that he did in fact pop the little blue miracles?

Guess I shouldn't have been surprised, after all...

[sabos_glasses]

That's crazy. I wish the Hall of Fame people would state their position on the implications of a positive test.

[Jumpman]

Holy crap.

Wow. He was the one ballplayer who testified before Congress that I actually believed.

i just can't believe that mustache of his. It ruined his credibility with me.

[Artpunchehorse]

I don't think the writer's will vote him now.

Somewhere, Bonds is very happy that this happened to someone not named Barry Bonds

[Jonathan]

Somewhere, Bonds is very happy that this happened to someone not named Barry Bonds
I wonder if he'll come back, now that he won't be the first high-profile name to get busted for steroids.

[the happy prole]

I wish I had faith in the drug tests, but I don't.

I think it's entirely possible Raffy may just have used the wrong supplement without knowing it. I also think it's entirely possible he's 'roided up to his eyeballs.

[Jumpman]

My question is this. Why would any player with stats that let you walk into the hall even tempt fate by juicing up now? It doesn't make much sense to me.

[Handy Smurf]

``I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period,'' he said.
Bullcrap
I have more respect for a guy like Canseco who tells the truth (even if its in an attempt to make a buck) than an impotent, mustachioed jackass like Raffy who lies to Congress than insists on lying again to the fans.

to answer jumpmans question. He's been taking his entire career. Canseco probably did inject him with it. Its a shame that a guy like Palmiero will be let off the hook because he is seen as being one of baseballs "good guys... as having integrity...even though someone who lies and cheats for 10 plus years to get by doesnt have an ounce of integrity.

[hopeyopi]

Bullcrap
I have more respect for a guy like Canseco who tells the truth (even if its in an attempt to make a buck) than an impotent, mustachioed jackass like Raffy who lies to Congress than insists on lying again to the fans.

to answer jumpmans question. He's been taking his entire career. Canseco probably did inject him with it. Its a shame that a guy like Palmiero will be let off the hook because he is seen as being one of baseballs "good guys... as having integrity...even though someone who lies and cheats for 10 plus years to get by doesnt have an ounce of integrity.

i agree entirely. i don't believe one single failed test is due to inadvertent or accidental use. and 10 days suspension is a joke.

[The_Deacon]

I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period," he said.
"Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body"

That's ok Rafael. I somtimes mix up asprin pills for tylenol pillls. I am sure
that it is just a case of a "roid" pill getting mixed up with your peter pills. :p :D

[gwar469]

My question is this. Why would any player with stats that let you walk into the hall even tempt fate by juicing up now? It doesn't make much sense to me.

Raffy didn't start to hit the homers until Canseco caught up with him in Texas. Then, he started to hit homers at a clip of 40+/year, starting in 1998 (at the age of 33). He had never hit 40+ homers/year before 1998. Raffy wouldn't have had HOF numbers had his career progressed after 1998 the same as it went before 1998. Don't know why, but he felt he needed a boost. Sad thing is, this steroid boost is probably the reason he needs a "boost" from his little blue pill friend. Side effects are ironically funny.

[Jumpman]

I guess I didn't mean to imply that he hasn't been using them for most of his career. What I meant is that now that he has the stats after unfairly altering his body for years, and knowing that baseball's steroid policy has gotten stronger in the past couple years, why still use them? He could have avoided this huge blow to his credibility simply by quitting while he was ahead. Now he's screwed himself. But I'm glad really, I hope all dopers are exposed.

[The Ugly Thief]

Here's a question fer ya. Is Palmeiro H.O.F. worthy?
Are you kidding me ? Of course they're gonna put him in the HOF. MLB couldn't care less about steroids. They'll pretend to be all tough on these idiots who are caught with it by handing out tiny little suspensions, but when it comes time for him to be on the HOF ballot the only thing everyone will be saying is "3,000" "3,000" "3,000" "3,000" "3,000" "3,000".

v

[The_Deacon]

These guys are playing a boring game that is going down the shitter. They make way too much money doing it. The good ones are all on Roids because they have to so they can keep stealing money. The homerun is the only thing that is still somewhat interesting in baseball, and watching a player hit 50+ homeruns in a season IS STILL FUCKING BORING!!!! :cool:

[paranoidandroid]

I wish I had faith in the drug tests, but I don't.

I think it's entirely possible Raffy may just have used the wrong supplement without knowing it. I also think it's entirely possible he's 'roided up to his eyeballs.

if he just took a wrong supplement, then why the vague details of what went wrong. wouldn't you think that he would want to completely clear his name, or at least give a good reason?

palmeiro said in his statement that he wants to warn kids about watching what they put in their bodies...but how can they learn from his mistake if they (we) don't know what happened??

this story could change drastically in the coming days.

as for palmeiro being HOF worthy?? c'mon you guys are on crack. he's one of 4 players to have 3,000 hits and over 500 home runs. i'm not sure what hall of fame you guys are talking about...but those numbers...UNDER THE CURRENT QUALIFICATIONS..gets him in the hall. "period!"

[Emperor Wog]

These guys are playing a boring game that is going down the shitter. They make way too much money doing it. The good ones are all on Roids because they have to so they can keep stealing money. The homerun is the only thing that is still somewhat interesting in baseball, and watching a player hit 50+ homeruns in a season IS STILL FUCKING BORING!!!! :cool:

I strongly disagree. If you love it passionatley (like anything) you find excitement in so much more than homers..like a shortstop flying through the air all out to grab a 125 MPH hardball 11 feet away, flipping it to the second basemen who gets the forceout while being tackled by the baserunner and still able to gun it down to 1st to get the double play. Or a 98 MPH country fastball with a wicked twelve six drop that makes 6'3", 230 pound man look like a kiddy leaguer. Or a centerfield darting across the warning zone to get his glove 10 feet in the air and slamming against a fence to rob a possible game winning shot. Or a routine groundball that scoots down the line only to slip under your first baseman's glove costing you a world championship that your city has waited over 80 years for.

Math is boring to me but I'm not gonna get in an 'algrebra' thread to tell everyone that it's boring. What's the point?

[sabos_glasses]

These guys are playing a boring game that is going down the shitter. They make way too much money doing it. The good ones are all on Roids because they have to so they can keep stealing money. The homerun is the only thing that is still somewhat interesting in baseball, and watching a player hit 50+ homeruns in a season IS STILL FUCKING BORING!!!! :cool:

Did you forget to break the pills in half again?

[the happy prole]

At least I can FINALLY stop hearing those "The Cubs traded Palmiero because they thought he'd never hit for power" quips.

[The Ugly Thief]

if he just took a wrong supplement, then why the vague details of what went wrong. wouldn't you think that he would want to completely clear his name, or at least give a good reason?yha, you would definitely think he would start naming the "supplements" that he was taking & how he took them. I guess once (if) he names the supplements (and we hear the only way to possibly take those supplements) then all of the sudden the image of him just drinking a spiked cup of Gatorade while working out goes right the window & we get the new image of him sticking a needle in his ass.

v

[The_Deacon]

I strongly disagree. If you love it passionatley (like anything) you find excitement in so much more than homers..like a shortstop flying through the air all out to grab a 125 MPH hardball 11 feet away, flipping it to the second basemen who gets the forceout while being tackled by the baserunner and still able to gun it down to 1st to get the double play. Or a 98 MPH country fastball with a wicked twelve six drop that makes 6'3", 230 pound man look like a kiddy leaguer. Or a centerfield darting across the warning zone to get his glove 10 feet in the air and slamming against a fence to rob a possible game winning shot. Or a routine groundball that scoots down the line only to slip under your first baseman's glove costing you a world championship that your city has waited over 80 years for.

Math is boring to me but I'm not gonna get in an 'algrebra' thread to tell everyone that it's boring. What's the point?
Nice!!!! That is what I was looking for!!!! :D

[Emperor Wog]

Nice!!!! That is what I was looking for!!!! :D

Who Dey.....................http://www.bengalszone.com/forums/html/emoticons/fbplayer.gif

[rlmotti]

I strongly disagree. If you love it passionatley (like anything) you find excitement in so much more than homers..like a shortstop flying through the air all out to grab a 125 MPH hardball 11 feet away, flipping it to the second basemen who gets the forceout while being tackled by the baserunner and still able to gun it down to 1st to get the double play. Or a 98 MPH country fastball with a wicked twelve six drop that makes 6'3", 230 pound man look like a kiddy leaguer. Or a centerfield darting across the warning zone to get his glove 10 feet in the air and slamming against a fence to rob a possible game winning shot. Or a routine groundball that scoots down the line only to slip under your first baseman's glove costing you a world championship that your city has waited over 80 years for.

Totally agree.

Further, this situation proves that the anti-roid policy by MLB is amazingly ridiculous. Kenny Rogers gets 20 games and Raffy gets only 10?

The guy should be suspended for a whole year, as happens in Track&Field competitions. Put pressure on the teams to supervise its players under penalty of losing them for the season, and I'll bet "unintentional" steroid use diminishes greatly.

[sabos_glasses]

Further, this situation proves that the anti-roid policy by MLB is amazingly ridiculous. Kenny Rogers gets 20 games and Raffy gets only 10?



I agree about the 'roid policy, but did Rogers get 20 games because he is a starting pitcher?

[Be Sound]

I agree about the 'roid policy, but did Rogers get 20 games because he is a starting pitcher?

Rogers got twenty because he attacked a cameraman. What position he does or does not play has no relevance.

I do think that the punishment for being caught with steroids should be increased to a minimum of 30 days for the first offense, 60 for the second, and a year for the 3rd. A fourth offense would be a lifetime ban from the game.

Let's face it, though. The only way the steroid problem ceases to be an issue is if baseball does a better job policing itself. That means both the owners and player's union. The public won't stand for this much longer and if baseball wants to reestablish credibility, both sides need to figure out a deal that benefits the game first.

[The Ugly Thief]

The public won't stand for this much longer
The public will stand for it for as long as they are told to. Americans couldn't care less about this. Most people just put this in the same category as testing positive for a narcotic drug, except this is not as bad because it's "helping" his game.
if baseball wants to reestablish credibility, both sides need to figure out a deal that benefits the game first.People don't want credibility, they want HRs. If they wanted credibility they wouldn't be cheering for someone like Sammy Sosa who not only turned into the Hulk in about 1 year, but also was playing with a corked bat....and he'll be a first ballot HOF inductee.

v

[Handy Smurf]

The public will stand for it for as long as they are told to. Americans couldn't care less about this. Most people just put this in the same category as testing positive for a narcotic drug, except this is not as bad because it's "helping" his game.
People don't want credibility, they want HRs. If they wanted credibility they wouldn't be cheering for someone like Sammy Sosa who not only turned into the Hulk in about 1 year, but also was playing with a corked bat....and he'll be a first ballot HOF inductee.
v
This makes me sick, but you're right on.
I don't understand how/why anyone would root for someone like him.

[the happy prole]

Did you guys see Sammy's corked bat? He gained absolutely no advantage from that tiny piece of cork.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that corked bats (if we're talking about actual cork) don't accomplish anything. That special hard maple bat that Bonds uses probably helps a whole lot more, but no one seems to care at all.

[Handy Smurf]

Did you guys see Sammy's corked bat? He gained absolutely no advantage from that tiny piece of cork.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that corked bats (if we're talking about actual cork) don't accomplish anything. That special hard maple bat that Bonds uses probably helps a whole lot more, but no one seems to care at all.
ok, I'll bite...if corked bats don't help, then why does anyone cork? :confused:

[sirgareth]

I read something about a guy who wrote a book on the physics of baseball, and according to him corking a bat does nothing to add to the flight of the batted ball. In fact, according to him, it actually made the batter lose distance. He suggested people still do it as a placebo...

Steroids, on the other hand....bret boone, i'm looking in your direction... :confused:

[The Ugly Thief]

according to him corking a bat does nothing to add to the flight of the batted ball... He suggested people still do it as a placebo...So, turning into the Hulk wasn't good enough for Sammy Sosa's confidence when he went up to bat. He needed a placebo in his bat which made him think that he would gain even MORE bat speed & distance.

v

[Emperor Wog]

I read something about a guy who wrote a book on the physics of baseball, and according to him corking a bat does nothing to add to the flight of the batted ball. In fact, according to him, it actually made the batter lose distance. He suggested people still do it as a placebo...

Steroids, on the other hand....bret boone, i'm looking in your direction... :confused:

I've also heard other experts say that since it makes your bat lighter it adds bat speed...but will only make the ball go about 4 or 5 feet further.

[Handy Smurf]

You get:

Increased bat speed due to a lighter bat that:

Is made of the same quality of wood
and
is the same size as one you might normally use.

So physics book aside, I'd say yes, it does give you an advantage.

[Be Sound]

The public will stand for it for as long as they are told to. Americans couldn't care less about this. Most people just put this in the same category as testing positive for a narcotic drug, except this is not as bad because it's "helping" his game.

You obviously are not following people in baseball circles.

People don't want credibility, they want HRs

No, they want to know the game is being played fairly. You're being too shortsighted.

[The Ugly Thief]

No, they want to know the game is being played fairly. You're being too shortsighted.
I'm not being shortsighted. I'm being realistic. They'll hand out these meaningless little suspensions here and there for a while in order to give the impression that they are "cleaning up the game". But owners & the MLBPA both know what brings the crowds to the stadiums & that's huge #'s - namely HRs & RBIs.

The masses couldn't care less if the guy hitting 95 HRs a year is sticking a needle in his ass or not.

v

[the happy prole]

The myth is that the ball flies off your bat better because cork is springy.

In fact, the only advantage you get is that your bat is lighter. But the amount that it makes your bat lighter (especially when we're talking about the quarter-size piece of cork in Sosa's bat) could easily be achieved by cupping the bat.

Anyway, the point is that adding a tiny amount of foreign wood substance to a bat is a huge no-no. And yet MLB doesn't blink an eye when you decide to swing a bat made entirely out of a different wood.

I'm not defending Sosa, because I'm pretty sure he took huge amounts of steroids even if his corking didn't help. I'm just saying MLB's policies don't make sense here, or in any other aspect of the game. People are just focusing on steroids, but the whole system needs massive retooling.

[jcarwash31]

Rogers got twenty because he attacked a cameraman. What position he does or does not play has no relevance.
But, if Rogers were a position player he may have only gotten 10 games. If you suspend a starting pitcher for 10 games, it is an almost worthless suspension because he would miss 1 start and his next start would be pushed back 1 day until after the suspension is up. That's a big reason why he got 20, so he will miss 3 or 4 starts.

You really can't compare suspensions of starting pitchers to suspensions of position players and relief pitchers.

[jcarwash31]

And yet MLB doesn't blink an eye when you decide to swing a bat made entirely out of a different wood.

Every player can use the same maple bats that Bonds is using. There is no rule against his bat.

[the happy prole]

...and up until last year there was no rule against steroids.

My point is that the MLB rules are stupid.

If corking your bat is bad, then using a maple bat should be bad. There's a much better case to be made that hard maple helps a lot more. It's denser at every weight so you are putting more wood on the bat every time you hit.

If steroids are bad, they should have been banned years ago. I'm not sure if we even know why steroids are bad.

If it's the performance, everyone was welcome to use them. We don't know if Bonds' performance is solely due to steroids, and not his bat. We don't know how much steroids helped or even how much he took.

Is it the health hazard? Well, the proper use of steroids is probably healthier than asking 21 year old pitchers to wing fastballs at 95 mph 100 times a game.

[Be Sound]

But, if Rogers were a position player he may have only gotten 10 games. If you suspend a starting pitcher for 10 games, it is an almost worthless suspension because he would miss 1 start and his next start would be pushed back 1 day until after the suspension is up. That's a big reason why he got 20, so he will miss 3 or 4 starts.

Since a pitcher can only play once every five days (or so), the games in which he DOES play are more important, thereby negating your premise.

You really can't compare suspensions of starting pitchers to suspensions of position players and relief pitchers.

Sure, you can. They're all baseball players.

[jcarwash31]

...and up until last year there was no rule against steroids.

My point is that the MLB rules are stupid.

If corking your bat is bad, then using a maple bat should be bad. There's a much better case to be made that hard maple helps a lot more. It's denser at every weight so you are putting more wood on the bat every time you hit.

If steroids are bad, they should have been banned years ago. I'm not sure if we even know why steroids are bad.

If it's the performance, everyone was welcome to use them. We don't know if Bonds' performance is solely due to steroids, and not his bat. We don't know how much steroids helped or even how much he took.

Is it the health hazard? Well, the proper use of steroids is probably healthier than asking 21 year old pitchers to wing fastballs at 95 mph 100 times a game.
Well there was a rule against performance enhancing drugs, but it had no teeth. They had drug testing, but they only tested for steroids and these tests were not mandatory. Plus, there was no penalty for a positive test.

Corking is equivalent to doctoring up the ball. It is introducing a foriegn substance to try to gain an advantage (eventhough it really doesn't do much and is stupid).

I don't know if you can really say that using a maple bat is bad. Is it immoral to use maple? It is still a solid chunk of wood. It's an advance in equipment. Every sport has them; titanium golf clubs, tennis rackets, lighter and better shoes, football pads, etc. They don't use aluminum bats because people would be killed (college baseball should switch to wood). I have used both ash and maple bats and I don't really see much of a difference, of course I am not a roided out freak like Bonds, but I like maple better because of its durability. Plus, if maple is so much better, wouldn't every player be swinging a maple bat?

[Emperor Wog]

They don't use aluminum bats because people would be killed (college baseball should switch to wood).

Also because it would absolutely destroy all the records of the past.

Facts about Northern White Ash bats:
-Lighter than comparable maple bats
-Traditional bat wood
-Not as dense as maple
-less $ than maple bats

Facts about Hard Maple bats:
-More dense (harder) than ash
-Heavier than similarly sized ash bat
-Relatively "new" wood for baseball bats, gaining popularity due to success of many players
-Costs more $ than ash
-High quality maple becoming increasingly difficult to find

You guys might enjoy this:
MAPLE VS ASH

Maple is a very hard, dense wood. The surface hardness is about 20% greater than ash. The harder the surface the faster the ball will jump off the bat. This is one of the reasons you have seen maple become very popular. That and Barry Bonds swings maple. Maple is also a closer grained hard wood. With maple you don't see the grain like you do with ash. With maple the grain straightness doesn't matter like it does with ash. Maple will not splinter like ash. The grain will not separate like ash will. Maple being harder doesn't have much flex to it.

Ash on the other hand does flex. When a ball is hit with ash there is a trampoline affect. The ball doesn't just jump off, it first compresses the wood, then like a spring board it leaves with more force than maple. This spring board affect is one of ash's greatest strengths and week nesses. This spring board and compression will in time cause the grains to separate. Because of this flex the ash will appear to have a larger sweet spot. Ash bats also do not snap the way a maple bat does. They will break just as easy, but usually wear out. The grain will delaminate over many uses.

As you can see both woods have their good points. Maple seams to be more forgiving when you hit in the wrong spot. With the same bat speed and same swing both materials will pre form very similar.

Ash is far lighter than maple. That is why more models are available with ash than maple.

The heaver the bat the denser the wood. That is why sometimes you will find ash bats that seem to have more pop than others.

Hickory is a complete story in itself. Hiskory is the hardest wood used for baseball bats. This is the same wood your Hammer Handle is made out of. The old school bats were all Hickory and would last an entire season. However Hickory is heavy and a good supplie of hickory light enough to make bats out of is hard to find.

[the happy prole]

I have no problem with Sosa being punished because the rules clearly state that a bat must be made of one piece of solid wood. Bonds' bat is one piece of solid wood, so he's not breaking any rules by using it.

I would extend your argument about bats to the use of steroids. Maybe they don't even give you that much of an advantage. Maybe they DO give you an advantage but they aren't bad for you if taken properly.

My problem is that steriods are "bad" but nothing is really done about it. If everyone took them, they'd all be on the same level. If no one took them, they'd all be on the same level.

So what we have is SOME players taking them, some not. And we don't know who is and who isn't and how much it helped them. Baseball is losing fans because they feel like the game was cheapened. But I think what cheapened the game isn't the existence of steriods but rather MLB's stupid policy towards them.

[The Ugly Thief]

If steroids are bad, they should have been banned years ago. I'm not sure if we even know why steroids are bad.

If it's the performance, everyone was welcome to use them.I think with baseball the only real concern about steroids is in regard to the way they grossly amplify a player's stats. It changes someone like Sosa from being a very good player who averages 20-25 HRs a season into a future HOF giant who averages 50-55 HRs a season. So, in essence it's basically eliminating any kind of legitimate "link" that there might be in baseball btwn today's players and the historical legends of the game. Baseball is built upon its history & comparing players to one another. It's really not as much of a team sport in that particular sense. So, you really can't do that once you have all the players sticking a needle in their ass & hitting 1,051 lifetime HRs.

It doesn't have anything to do with health concerns whatsoever. Nobody, including the owners or the MLBPA could care less about the health of someone who is sticking a needle in his ass.

With that said, I think steroids should be completely 100% accepted in the NFL. I think they all should be allowed to take them with no concern or worries of being tested. It's their choice. If they wanna take them, fine with me.

v

[Handy Smurf]

I have no problem with Sosa being punished because the rules clearly state that a bat must be made of one piece of solid wood. Bonds' bat is one piece of solid wood, so he's not breaking any rules by using it.

I would extend your argument about bats to the use of steroids. Maybe they don't even give you that much of an advantage. Maybe they DO give you an advantage but they aren't bad for you if taken properly.

My problem is that steriods are "bad" but nothing is really done about it. If everyone took them, they'd all be on the same level. If no one took them, they'd all be on the same level.

So what we have is SOME players taking them, some not. And we don't know who is and who isn't and how much it helped them. Baseball is losing fans because they feel like the game was cheapened. But I think what cheapened the game isn't the existence of steriods but rather MLB's stupid policy towards them.
Well...yes
but I think you also have to extend that to the players who disregarded their own health, looked at the letter of the law and not the spirit of it, and decided that anything that would make them more money was worth taking, no matter how wrong it is.

[jcarwash31]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-palmeiro-stanozolol&prov=ap&type=lgns
Palmeiro appears to have tested positive for a steroid that is not available in dietary supplements, or so states an anonymous source.

[sirgareth]

With that said, I think steroids should be completely 100% accepted in the NFL. I think they all should be allowed to take them with no concern or worries of being tested. It's their choice. If they wanna take them, fine with me.


The problem with this logic, and why I think all steroids and people who use them should be kicked out of the game forever, is it penalizes the people who do not take steroids. If a player chooses not to risk his own life by not taking steroids, he is then at a disadvantage to the player who compromises his health. This is a gross imbalance towards those who cheat, and could also lead to management encouraging players to take steroids, or frowning on the 'wusses' who won't take steroids for the good of the team.

And, if you don't think owners would do something like that...

At one point, gambling was the biggest problem faced by baseball. But, they made some rules, set a precedent, and posted it in every clubhouse for all to see. So, that if someone violated said rule (Pete Rose, ahem) they knew they would be kicked out of baseball.

It is time to make a second cardinal rule, post it on the wall of the clubhouse, and put the word out that if you violate said rule, you will be kicked out. Then, the problem will go away.

I've listened for far too long to Sanctity of the Game arguments on Pete Rose...And while he is beyond justification at this point, if you are going to invoke Sanctity in his case, invoke it in all of them. Kick 'em all out, and play the game right.

[Jonathan]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-palmeiro-stanozolol&prov=ap&type=lgns
Palmeiro appears to have tested positive for a steroid that is not available in dietary supplements, or so states an anonymous source.
Not to mention is the same steroid Ben Johnson tested positive for back in '88.

Which begs the question...why would you take a steroid that they've had tests to detect for for close to 20 years now?

[gwar469]

i'm not a lawyer, or anything close to it, so help me out here. wouldn't they have to prove that Raffy had taken steroids BEFORE the congressional hearing to get him for perjury? i understand that they need to look into whether or not he perjured(is that the word?), but without a positive drug test from before the congressional hearing, can he be found guilty of perjury?

[jcarwash31]

i'm not a lawyer, or anything close to it, so help me out here. wouldn't they have to prove that Raffy had taken steroids BEFORE the congressional hearing to get him for perjury? i understand that they need to look into whether or not he perjured(is that the word?), but without a positive drug test from before the congressional hearing, can he be found guilty of perjury?
You are exactly right. If the drug test was taken before the hearing, then he might have himself a problem but I don't believe it was.

[Homsar]

If you suspend a starting pitcher for 10 games, it is an almost worthless suspension because he would miss 1 start and his next start would be pushed back 1 day until after the suspension is up. That's a big reason why he got 20, so he will miss 3 or 4 starts.


Since a pitcher can only play once every five days (or so), the games in which he DOES play are more important, thereby negating your premise.

Not really, Be Sound. The penalty is for the player, not the team. Why would a starter fear a penalty that would make him miss one or two starts? It makes more sense to make him miss almost a month's worth of starts.


It's hard for me to believe that Palmiero would lie about knowingly taking steroids. Why the hell would he? This year will (maybe not now) cement him as a hall of famer, and he tests positive for steroids? That doesn't make sense. Either he's innocent, or he's a big liar and perjurer. To protect my faith in baseball, I hope it's the former option.

[gwar469]

For him to be innocent would require his test result to be a false positive. I don't know how often, if ever, a steroid test comes up as a false positive. That being said, tho, the steroid found in Raffy wasn't your momma's steroid -- this was the real deal. One of those that doesn't just "sneak" into your body unknowingly.

I agree he had no reason to use steroids anymore, especially after he's already put up the numbers he has and testified before Congress. If he'd used them in the past and lied about it, he should have stopped, given his career numbers. He would have made the HOF no problem. Now, his image is tarnished, and no one can tell how many homers and hits were pre-steroid.

Did he think that because of his adamant denial before Congress they would never drug test him? Maybe he has some level of a psychological disease that made him keep taking them. Kind of like a reverse anorexia or something. Maybe it's just the pressure of playing the game and trying to be top dog.

[The Sheck]

Click. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2169007)

Rafael Palmeiro reportedly told a three-member baseball arbitration panel that a teammate gave him a substance that might be responsible for his positive steroid test, a source told the Baltimore Sun.

A second source told the Sun that Palmeiro named the teammate when he presented his defense when appealing his suspension. However, a source told the newspaper that while he told the panel that he had received a substance from a teammate, he didn't make the case that the substance in question caused his positive test result.

The House Committee on Government Reform is investigating whether Palmeiro's statements to the panel have merit, the Sun reported, by interviewing people, including members of the Orioles such as Palmeiro himself and the team's head trainer, Richie Bancells.

Bancells confirmed to the newspaper that he had spoken to the committee.

The baseball arbitration panel denied Palmeiro's appeal, saying he failed to establish the positive test result was not his fault.

Baseball suspended Palmeiro for 10 days and the House committee is now examining arbitration hearing transcripts to determine whether Palmeiro lied to Congress when he testified he had never taken steroids.

Palmeiro stood by his statements to Congress, saying he didn't know what caused the test result.

Earlier this month, the Baltimore Sun reported that the House committee is uncertain whether there is enough evidence to refer the case to the Justice Department. However, the committee is considering several other options.

One scenario, officials familiar with the situation told the Sun, has the committee making the documents pertaining to Palmeiro's case public. The committee received the documents related to the first baseman's positive steroid test from Major League Baseball on Aug. 12. A document release could happen in the next two weeks and would allow the public to decide for itself about Palmeiro.

The documents include the results of Palmeiro's tests, the tests' dates and the record of secret proceedings before a three-member arbitration panel after Palmeiro appealed the results. The appeal was denied, and the documents would show how Palmeiro defended himself while not offering an explanation as to how the steroid entered his system.

The committee has also not ruled out sending the case to the Justice Department, which could bring a perjury charge against Palmeiro. But the Sun reported that that option is less likely than others because of the difficulty of proving Palmeiro had knowingly used the drug when he appeared before Congress.

Palmeiro said that he would never take a performance-enhancing substance intentionally after he tested positive for the steroid stanozolol. However, experts have said that is is unlikely stanozolol could have entered his system by accident. Palmeiro said he won't comment publicly on the matter until Congress finishes its review.

A congressional source familiar with the committee's work, speaking to the AP on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing, said several active players have spoken or will speak with the committee. That source would not identify who was interviewed.

But Colorado Rockies outfielder Jorge Piedra told The Associated Press that he spoke on the phone with the committee. He said investigators contacted him through his agent about a week ago, found out "all they wanted to know" in a matter of minutes and didn't plan to contact him again.

Piedra, the second player publicly identified under the sport's new steroid rules when he was suspended for 10 days in April, said the committee "had a few questions and I just answered them honestly."

"I told them I didn't have anything to do with Palmeiro," Piedra said after the Rockies played the Padres in Denver. "We only worked out a few times together."

The congressional source indicated that all the players asked to talk to the committee recently were chosen because they have relationships with Palmeiro -- such as teammates or workout partners -- and could have knowledge about whether he might have used steroids before his testimony.

You know...cause it's always good to blame someone else instead of take responsibility for your actions. :rolleyes:

[jcarwash31]

You know, I read that earlier today and didn't even realize that Sosa was/is on the Orioles. Could be some shadey goings on there.

[Jonathan]

What a cunt Raffy is turning out to be.

Never trust someone with a mustache. Especially a porn-star mustache. Or a handlebar mustache. Or on of those Robert Goulet-style ultra-thin mustaches. Pretty much any kind of mustache is not to be trusted. Nor should anyone wearing a "Mustache Rides - 5 cents" shirt.

[gwar469]

What a cunt Raffy is turning out to be.

Never trust someone with a mustache. Especially a porn-star mustache. Or a handlebar mustache. Or on of those Robert Goulet-style ultra-thin mustaches. Pretty much any kind of mustache is not to be trusted. Nor should anyone wearing a "Mustache Rides - 5 cents" shirt.

are you telling me I can never trust Rollie Fingers?? oh man...

[Jonathan]

are you telling me I can never trust Rollie Fingers?? oh man...
Well, I was thinking more of Snidely Whiplash, and any other mustachioed evildoer who ties young ladies to train tracks. But yeah, I wouldn't trust Rollie Fingers any farther than I could throw him.

[The_Deacon]

Raffy is an ass trying to cover his ass!!....(because track marks on his ass :p )

[sabos_glasses]

Raffy is "lower than a snake's ballbag."

[gwar469]

Vitamin B-12 = steroids (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2169007)

Raffy is doing absolutely nothing to help his cause. With each sequential lie he gives, he incriminates himself more and more. The steroid he tested positive for rarely (if ever) has a false positive. If something as simple as B-12 caused a positive steroid test, wouldn't everyone on the planet be testing positive for this steroid?? Fucking moron...

[jcarwash31]

Beattie said that Palmeiro would issue a statement denying that he accused Tejada of giving him a substance that may have caused a positive test.
Just like you denied having ever used steroids.
you bastard

[Artpunchehorse]

Never trust a guy with a 'stache

[The Sheck]

Just like you denied having ever used steroids.
you bastard

Tejada?!? Aww, man. I liked him.

[Wondertastic]

now on ESPN, they have a bunch of articles basically calling him a rat and that he shouldn't come back to the team next year because he "broke the code".

Fuck that. I hope he rats everyone out. This problem is plaguing baseball and they are basically saying that the players can hide behind their version of the blue line. Cheaters are cheaters and the people supplying the cheaters are cheaters.