Hall of Fame Debate

[jcarwash31]

David Schoenfield from ESPN.com Page 2 wrote a 2 part article listing 40 current major leaguers that will make the hall. I thought he did a pretty good job and tried his best to project what the younger players will do.

Part 1 (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/050728)
Part 2 (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/050729)



*I would like to note that Johan Santana and Joe Mauer made the list. :D

[cheesy79]

Great articles. I read them yesterday and today respectively. I shall comment when I have more time. I agreed with maybe half. I, for one, don't understand how you can say someone is a future HOFer when they haven't even played 5 years yet (of which there were a few).

Having said that....my boy Dunn was on there. :) And yes, he WILL strikeout THAT many times. :)

[jcarwash31]

Having said that....my boy Dunn was on there. :) And yes, he WILL strikeout THAT many times. :)
I had a good laugh at his comment on Dunn.

[Handy Smurf]

Great articles. I read them yesterday and today respectively. I shall comment when I have more time. I agreed with maybe half. I, for one, don't understand how you can say someone is a future HOFer when they haven't even played 5 years yet (of which there were a few).

Having said that....my boy Dunn was on there. :) And yes, he WILL strikeout THAT many times. :)

I just told my friend this yesterday. Picking all players who were common to one era who will make the Hall was the whole point of the excercise. Picking Miguel Cabrera doesnt mean he's already had a better career than Bernie Williams, but part of the making of the list is predicting the future successes of current players whose resumes arent HoF caliber yet.

[the happy prole]

Yeah, I read this yesterday and today. What I don't get are the rankings.

Are they supposed to be in some kind of worthiness order? Because how the hell is Randy Johnson a less obvious hall of famer than Smoltz or Glavine? He's likely going to end up with more wins than Glavine. Possibly a lower ERA than Smoltz (depends on how long either wants to hang on). And does anyone doubt that Johnson could have been a dominant closer had he wanted to do it?

Then there's the little matter of 4000 strikeouts and 5 Cy Youngs and the 2002 Triple Crown.

[sabos_glasses]

Wow, I never thought of Trevor Hoffman as a HOFer, but I guess if the numbers are there, what can you say?

Dunn? wow. I mean the HRs should stack up, but what about average and all-star appearances? I guess its still too early to have a position. At least the OBP will be good.

Best-case scenario: Man Ram and Sheffield get inducted the same year. Now THAT would be fun.

[The Ugly Thief]

Predicting Miguel Cabrera will get in is ridiculous at this point. He has only played one FULL season - and it wasn't like it was an AMAZING / SUPERMAN type of season. He batted .294 w/ 33 HR & 112 RBIs. Sure that's great, especially when it's your first full season. But to already start to say that he's going to be HOF-worthy is more than a tad over-anxious.

Mark Prior is overrated. I think he'll have a long career w/ a great season here & a great season there, but ultimately he'll be in the same type of position Kevin Brown is in right now & not get in - and Brown is a better pitcher than Prior.

John Smoltz is totally going to get in. He's actually a better pitcher now than he was when he won the Cy Young award back in '96. He's smarter & he developed a split-finger when he went to the bullpen which he uses as a starter now. Unless he starts having arm problems again, I think he's got at least 2 more very good (as in potential 20 game winner) seasons left. By the time his career is done, he'll be more worthy than Tom Glavine.

Where was Mark McGwire ?

v

[jcarwash31]

Where was Mark McGwire ?

This is a list of the current players that he thinks will get in.

Picking all players who were common to one era who will make the Hall was the whole point of the excercise. Picking Miguel Cabrera doesnt mean he's already had a better career than Bernie Williams, but part of the making of the list is predicting the future successes of current players whose resumes arent HoF caliber yet.

[Handy Smurf]

Predicting Miguel Cabrera will get in is ridiculous at this point. He has only played one FULL season - and it wasn't like it was an AMAZING / SUPERMAN type of season. He batted .294 w/ 33 HR & 112 RBIs. Sure that's great, especially when it's your first full season. But to already start to say that he's going to be HOF-worthy is more than a tad over-anxious.

Mark Prior is overrated. I think he'll have a long career w/ a great season here & a great season there, but ultimately he'll be in the same type of position Kevin Brown is in right now & not get in - and Brown is a better pitcher than Prior.

John Smoltz is totally going to get in. He's actually a better pitcher now than he was when he won the Cy Young award back in '96. He's smarter & he developed a split-finger when he went to the bullpen which he uses as a starter now. Unless he starts having arm problems again, I think he's got at least 2 more very good (as in potential 20 game winner) seasons left. By the time his career is done, he'll be more worthy than Tom Glavine.

Where was Mark McGwire ?

v
1. Once again, the point of the excercise. He even stated that if he'd done it 20 years ago he'd have picked Willie McGee and Bret Saberhagen as HoF locks.
2. Prior is overrated.There are about a dozen young pitchers I'd choose for my team before I took Prior. Was anyone else able to understand the logic behind the authors statement that Prior has been injured a lot and is "getting it out of the way early in his career"?
3. Smoltz is easily the least likely of the Braves "big 3" to make it to the Hall. Granted, thats probably due to the fact that he was injured far too often, but oh well. He'd need 4 more outstanding years to make it.
4. McGwire isn't active

[The Ugly Thief]

2. Prior is overrated.There are about a dozen young pitchers I'd choose for my team before I took Prior. Was anyone else able to understand the logic behind the authors statement that Prior has been injured a lot and is "getting it out of the way early in his career"?
3. Smoltz is easily the least likely of the Braves "big 3" to make it to the Hall. Granted, thats probably due to the fact that he was injured far too often, but oh well. He'd need 4 more outstanding years to make it.
4. McGwire isn't active

2. made no sense at all ; if anything it's going to hurt him even more because it was early in his career

3. of course he is, but my whole point was that Smoltz is actually pitching better now than when he won the Cy Young. So, I feel he has some of his best seasons ahead of him. Also, I feel his #'s as a saver will not require him to have 4 more outstanding years. I think 2-3 will be sufficient. It depends on the #'s in the seasons.

4. my bad

v

[Jumpman]

I wished they had posted an addendum, that included the people who have retired in the last five years. I'm just thinking, because I'm curious how Larkin stands out. (Big Mac too, although I say thumbs down) I'd love to see him in, but I think he might be considered borderline.

[Handy Smurf]

Yeah, having Omar Vizquel on there is ridiculous. If he makes it, Larkin is a shoe in

[The Ugly Thief]

I can't believe he's unsure of Chipper Jones. Here's a quick way to assess his Hall of Fame possibilities : When Chipper Jones is done with his career his stats, including lifetime hits, batting average, and home runs, will all be better than Eddie Murray's.

I'm guessing that the only switch hitter who will have more lifetime HRs than Chipper when he retires will be Mantle.

v

[Artpunchehorse]

Best-case scenario: Man Ram and Sheffield get inducted the same year. Now THAT would be fun.

and Pedro!!

[The Sheck]

Here's a quick way to assess his Hall of Fame possibilities : When Chipper Jones is done with his career his stats, including lifetime hits, batting average, and home runs, will all be better than Eddie Murray's.

Jones (11 years): BA - .304, Hits - 1794, HRs - 326, RBIs - 1098
Murray(21 years): BA - .287, Hits - 3255, HRs - 504, RBIs - 1917

The only certain thing for Jones probably is batting average. He's 33 right now and if we were to do a comparison of Murray at 33, we'd find:

Hits -2068, HRs - 343, RBIs - 1278.

Murray played eight more years as a 1B/DH. I don't think Jones is going to do that. He's going to retire as a Brave probably at 37-38. Unless he goes on a 'mid-late 30s assisted by steroids' streak, he'll finish with numbers lower than Murray's.

[jcarwash31]

Unless he goes on a 'mid-late 30s assisted by steroids' streak....
It's all the rage these days.

[Orville Wrong]

Jones (11 years): BA - .304, Hits - 1794, HRs - 326, RBIs - 1098
Murray(21 years): BA - .287, Hits - 3255, HRs - 504, RBIs - 1917

The only certain thing for Jones probably is batting average. He's 33 right now and if we were to do a comparison of Murray at 33, we'd find:

Hits -2068, HRs - 343, RBIs - 1278.

Murray played eight more years as a 1B/DH. I don't think Jones is going to do that. He's going to retire as a Brave probably at 37-38. Unless he goes on a 'mid-late 30s assisted by steroids' streak, he'll finish with numbers lower than Murray's.
Considering that 3B is the least well-represented position in the Hall, and that numbers from a 3B comparable to a 1B HOFer are a great argument in and of themselves, I'd say Jones is a first-ballot lock. Plus, other than the little marital thing early on, Jones is an upright citizen, and Murray was a jerk. The BBWA loves Jones.

[The Sheck]

Considering that 3B is the least well-represented position in the Hall, and that numbers from a 3B comparable to a 1B HOFer are a great argument in and of themselves, I'd say Jones is a first-ballot lock.

It depends on if he can stay healthy for the next five years or so. Right now, he doesn't have the numbers, and even if he puts together an average season (for him), he's going to be right on the edge.

Plus, other than the little marital thing early on, Jones is an upright citizen, and Murray was a jerk. The BBWA loves Jones.

Not as much as they love guys with 3,000 hits and 500+ HRs.

[Orville Wrong]

Active Locks in My Book: Maddux, Biggio, Bagwell, P. Martinez, Griffey, R. Johnson, Clemens, M. Ramirez, I. Rodriguez, A. Rodriguez, C. Jones, J. Edmonds, V. Guerrero, Jeter, Piazza, Sheffield, M. Rivera, E. Renteria.

Palmeiro and Bonds are locks barring some sort of punitive ban due to the 'roids.

I'm probably leaving off some pitchers, as there are ALWAYS more active HOF pitchers with the necessary 10 seasons in at any given time than I've got here.

I was tempted to put Abreu on the list, but he could still have a disaster that would keep him out.

Oh, yeah. Ryan Freel. :D

[Orville Wrong]

It depends on if he can stay healthy for the next five years or so. Right now, he doesn't have the numbers, and even if he puts together an average season (for him), he's going to be right on the edge.
For first ballot, maybe, but all he needs to get in period is to be better than the worst 3B already in. He's already done that almost for certain. I'll look it up, but he can't have worse numbers than Brooks Robinson.



Not as much as they love guys with 3,000 hits and 500+ HRs.
That's a standard more for 1Bs and OFs.

[The Ugly Thief]

Jones (11 years): BA - .304, Hits - 1794, HRs - 326, RBIs - 1098
Murray(21 years): BA - .287, Hits - 3255, HRs - 504, RBIs - 1917

A more accurate comparison is to compare their first 10 seasons :

Jones : BA - .304, Hits - 1705, HRs - 310, RBIs - 1039
Murray: BA - .293, Hits - 1679, HRs - 275, RBIs - 981

Unless he goes on a 'mid-late 30s assisted by steroids' streak, he'll finish with numbers lower than Murray's.
Judging by the fact that he is leading in every single category after 10 seasons, I'd say he won't need to hit the steroids to shadow Murray's career totals.

v

[The Sheck]

A more accurate comparison is to compare their first 10 seasons :

Jones : BA - .304, Hits - 1705, HRs - 310, RBIs - 1039
Murray: BA - .293, Hits - 1679, HRs - 275, RBIs - 981


Judging by the fact that he is leading in every single category after 10 seasons, I'd say he won't need to hit the steroids to shadow Murray's career totals.

v

Hhmm...not really. Age comparison is a better approximate of player's abilities than number of seasons played. Jones is on the downhill slope of his career, as was Murray at 33. However, Murray had two advantages for him which Jones does not. He played 1B and he played in the American League, which enabled him to DH near the end, extending his career by two or three seasons.

Ol' Chip has to have 1,400 more hits, 175 more HRs and drive in 800+ runs just to equal Murray. Those are some pretty big numbers to obtain for a guy coming off a major injury. If he plays five more years, that's an average of 280 hits, 35 HRs, and 160 RBIs per year. Not gonna happen.

[The Ugly Thief]

Hhmm...not really. Age comparison is a better approximate of player's abilities than number of seasons played. Jones is on the downhill slope of his career, as was Murray at 33. However, Murray had two advantages for him which Jones does not. He played 1B and he played in the American League, which enabled him to DH near the end, extending his career by two or three seasons.

Ol' Chip has to have 1,400 more hits, 175 more HRs and drive in 800+ runs just to equal Murray. Those are some pretty big numbers to obtain for a guy coming off a major injury. If he plays five more years, that's an average of 280 hits, 35 HRs, and 160 RBIs per year. Not gonna happen.
yet another idiotic post by The Sheck showing how he is determined to not be wrong in a debate even after he has been given undeniable facts.

v

[The Sheck]

yet another idiotic post by The Sheck showing how he is determined to not be wrong in a debate even after he has been given undeniable facts.

v

Averaging 280 hits per year and 160 RBIs per year is a pretty impossible task, yes? Just because I don't subscribe to your theory of 'I am right, therefore everyone else is wrong' doesn't make me idiotic, just wary of anything you say. Here's some cheese to go along with your childish whining.

Do the math. Jones is going to have to play into his 40s to catch Murray in terms of hits and RBIs. Maybe even HRs. Your blindness for all things Atlanta Braves related is an old, tired schtick. Someone needs to call you on it, else you'll become more insufferable then you already are.

[Orville Wrong]

Ol' Chip has to have 1,400 more hits, 175 more HRs and drive in 800+ runs just to equal Murray. Those are some pretty big numbers to obtain for a guy coming off a major injury. If he plays five more years, that's an average of 280 hits, 35 HRs, and 160 RBIs per year. Not gonna happen.
You can't compare the offensive numbers of a 3B to a 1B straight up. You have to compare them to others at the same position, or compare the two different positioned players based on their difference from the average player at their position.

Playing 3B (and earlier SS) is an advantage for Jones -- it is a difficult position at which he has excelled his whole career. Playing 1B was a disadvantage for Murray -- while he was a good 1B, he could never have played any position to his right on the infield. Jones gets compared to George Brett. Murray to Lou Gehrig. Nothing against Brett, but he was no offensive force like Gehrig.

[The Sheck]

You can't compare the offensive numbers of a 3B to a 1B straight up. You have to compare them to others at the same position, or compare the two different positioned players based on their difference from the average player at their position.

If that's the case, there's no chance Jones will have the same numbers as Murray when his career is over. THAT is my argument.

[The Sheck]

Playing 3B (and earlier SS) is an advantage for Jones -- it is a difficult position at which he has excelled his whole career. Playing 1B was a disadvantage for Murray -- while he was a good 1B, he could never have played any position to his right on the infield. Jones gets compared to George Brett. Murray to Lou Gehrig. Nothing against Brett, but he was no offensive force like Gehrig.

Yeah, and having Babe Ruth hit behind you has absolutely no effect on your numbers either, right? :rolleyes:

Besides, defense is overlooked when it comes to the hall unless it's your schtick. The argument is offensive numbers. Murray hit .323 at age 39. I don't know if Jones will play that long, especially in a league without the DH.

[Orville Wrong]

Averaging 280 hits per year and 160 RBIs per year is a pretty impossible task, yes? Just because I don't subscribe to your theory of 'I am right, therefore everyone else is wrong' doesn't make me idiotic, just wary of anything you say. Here's some cheese to go along with your childish whining.

Do the math. Jones is going to have to play into his 40s to catch Murray in terms of hits and RBIs. Maybe even HRs. Your blindness for all things Atlanta Braves related is an old, tired schtick. Someone needs to call you on it, else you'll become more insufferable then you already have.
Jones doesn't need to catch Murray in anything.

[Orville Wrong]

Yeah, and having Babe Ruth hit behind you has absolutely no effect on your numbers either, right? :rolleyes:

Besides, defense is overlooked when it comes to the hall unless it's your schtick. The argument is offensive numbers. Murray hit .323 at age 39. I don't know if Jones will play that long, especially in a league without the DH.
I thought the argument was about the HOF per the thread title.

Also, there is absolutely no statistical evidence that who hits behind you has any effect on performance. This has been shown again, and again, again. You listen to too much Joe Morganesque bullshit.

[The Sheck]

Jones doesn't need to catch Murray in anything.

*shakes head incredulously* Are you even reading any of these posts? The debate TUT started was that Jones will pass Eddie Murray in hits, home runs, and RBIs. I provided evidence to suggest that will not happen. He may not NEED to catch Murray when it comes to the HoF, but it's pretty unlikely that it'll happen anyway. This is what I'm arguing.

[Orville Wrong]

*shakes head incredulously* Are you even reading any of these posts? The debate TUT started was that Jones will pass Eddie Murray in hits, home runs, and RBIs. I provided evidence to suggest that will not happen. He may not NEED to catch Murray when it comes to the HoF, but it's pretty unlikely that it'll happen anyway. This is what I'm arguing.
My apologies to you, sir. Should have read back further. :o

[The Sheck]

yet another idiotic post by The Sheck showing how he is determined to not be wrong in a debate even after he has been given undeniable facts.

Hello, Vincent? It's reality calling. Will you accept the charges?

[The Ugly Thief]

Averaging 280 hits per year and 160 RBIs per year is a pretty impossible task, yes? Just because I don't subscribe to your theory of 'I am right, therefore everyone else is wrong' doesn't make me idiotic, just wary of anything you say. Here's some cheese to go along with your childish whining.

Do the math. Jones is going to have to play into his 40s to catch Murray in terms of hits and RBIs. Maybe even HRs. Your blindness for all things Atlanta Braves related is an old, tired schtick. Someone needs to call you on it, else you'll become more insufferable then you already have.

I'll show this one last time just so anyone who is reading this can see just how idiotic your argument is.

Jones vs. Murray in their first 10 seasons :

Jones : BA - .304, Hits - 1705, HRs - 310, RBIs - 1039
Murray: BA - .293, Hits - 1679, HRs - 275, RBIs - 981

My entire argument is based upon cold facts showing their first 10 seasons. Chipper Jones' statistics are superior in every single category, and he is on a pace to break all of Murray's career totals. Sheck's entire argument is based upon the assumption that Chipper Jones will retire before his career totals inevitably pass Eddie Murray's.

I just wanted to make that clear to anyone who is reading this.

v

[Orville Wrong]

If that's the case, there's no chance Jones will have the same numbers as Murray when his career is over. THAT is my argument.
Not at all. If Jones DOES surpass Murray in numbers, he gets even more credit because he also had to concentrate on a difficult defensive position instead of an easy one -- or none at all (DH).

[jcarwash31]

Jones vs. Murray in their first 10 seasons :

Jones : BA - .304, Hits - 1705, HRs - 310, RBIs - 1039
Murray: BA - .293, Hits - 1679, HRs - 275, RBIs - 981

You left off 1 important statistic here. After their first 10 seasons, Jones was 32 years old and Murray was 30 years old.

Comparing the two players after 10 seasons is a valid comparison if you assume they will play the same number of seasons in their careers, but Chipper would have to play until he is 43 to do this. It's possible, but doubtful.

[The Sheck]

I'll show this one last time just so anyone who is reading this can see just how idiotic your argument is.

Jones vs. Murray in their first 10 seasons :

Jones : BA - .304, Hits - 1705, HRs - 310, RBIs - 1039
Murray: BA - .293, Hits - 1679, HRs - 275, RBIs - 981

My entire argument is based upon cold facts showing their first 10 seasons. Chipper Jones' statistics are superior in every single category, and he is on a pace to break all of Murray's career totals. Sheck's entire argument is based upon the assumption that Chipper Jones will retire before his career totals inevitably pass Eddie Murray's.

I just wanted to make that clear to anyone who is reading this.

v

Yet again you show an incapability (or unwillingness) to comprehend anyone else's posts that differ from yours. Why do you feel so threatened when anyone points out the flaws in your logic? Anyhoo, continuing...

By the time Jones hit the bigs for good in 1995 at age 23, Murray, by comparison, had two years experience under his belt. Before Jones had even seen an opening-day roster, Murray had 247 hits, 54 HRs and 183 RBIs at the same age. What you are suggesting is that age is irrevelant when it comes to comparing statistics. What I'm saying (and what statistics prove) is that the older a player gets, his skills diminish. It's unlikely that Jones will be the same type of hitter at 35-37 as he was at 25-27. Unless you're on 'roids, that is. (Note: I don't think Jones would take steroids, FYI)

Regardless of how you want to say it, Jones still needs 175 HRs, 800+ RBIs, and 1400 hits to catch Murray. Over a five-year span (at the time in which Jones will be 38), he will need to average 260 hits, 35 HRs, and 160 RBIs PER YEAR to catch Murray. Want to expand it out to age 40? 25 HRs, 200 hits, and 114 RBIs. For seven consecutive seasons, Jones has to AVERAGE that to catch him. Considering Jones has never had a 200 hit season, getting seven in a row seems a bit unlikely, yes? He has had ONE season of 114 or more RBIs in his career. Is it sinking in yet? The odds are mighty long that this will take place. Do the math for yourself and stop with the petty insults when you find someone calling you on your booshit.

[The Sheck]

You left off 1 important statistic here. After their first 10 seasons, Jones was 32 years old and Murray was 30 years old.

Comparing the two players after 10 seasons is a valid comparison if you assume they will play the same number of seasons in their careers, but Chipper would have to play until he is 43 to do this. It's possible, but doubtful.

No, carwash. I said this before. He chooses to ignore facts that don't support his beliefs, making debating things with him an exercise in futility.

[Orville Wrong]

You left off 1 important statistic here. After their first 10 seasons, Jones was 32 years old and Murray was 30 years old.

Comparing the two players after 10 seasons is a valid comparison if you assume they will play the same number of seasons in their careers, but Chipper would have to play until he is 43 to do this. It's possible, but doubtful.
Jones's OBP is 43 points higher, he has already stolen more bases, and he is only 300 runs behind Murray comparing full careers. Throw in defense, and there's little question Jones is the superior all-around player. Who really cares if he surpasses Murray in HRs or RBIs?

[jcarwash31]

Who really cares if he surpasses Murray in HRs or RBIs?
I don't. But the argument was that Chipper will pass Murray in these numbers and therefore be a lock for the HoF. Statistical evidence was put forth to try to support this argument and, since I am a degree toting statistician, I felt compelled to point out that he left out an important factor in his comparison - a players age.

Chipper is a very good player and has a good chance at the HoF, but I think he needs a few more very productive years and still isn't a lock.

[Orville Wrong]

I don't. But the argument was that Chipper will pass Murray in these numbers and therefore be a lock for the HoF. Statistical evidence was put forth to try to support this argument and, since I am a degree toting statistician, I felt compelled to point out that he left out an important factor in his comparison - a players age.

Chipper is a very good player and has a good chance at the HoF, but I think he needs a few more very productive years and still isn't a lock.
I can't see a scenario wherein Jones doesn't make it. He's a lock in my book. I pointed out earlier that all the traditional benchmarks like 3,000 hits and 300 homers are primarily for comparing 1Bs and OFs to one another.

Chipper has always played a skill position, and always played it well. If Brooks Robinson and Bill Mazeroski can make it on leather alone, I can't imagine someone that fields like Chipper AND can flat swing it wouldn't be a lock.

[jcarwash31]

I can't see a scenario wherein Jones doesn't make it. He's a lock in my book. I pointed out earlier that all the traditional benchmarks like 3,000 hits and 300 homers are primarily for comparing 1Bs and OFs to one another.

Chipper has always played a skill position, and always played it well. If Brooks Robinson and Bill Mazeroski can make it on leather alone, I can't imagine someone that fields like Chipper AND can flat swing it wouldn't be a lock.
I agree. I worry about how much they consider defense anymore for a HoF candidate. I guess I am just a bit skeptical of the BBWA.

[Handy Smurf]

Active Locks in My Book: Maddux, Biggio, Bagwell, P. Martinez, Griffey, R. Johnson, Clemens, M. Ramirez, I. Rodriguez, A. Rodriguez, C. Jones, J. Edmonds, V. Guerrero, Jeter, Piazza, Sheffield, M. Rivera, E. Renteria.

Palmeiro and Bonds are locks barring some sort of punitive ban due to the 'roids.

I'm probably leaving off some pitchers, as there are ALWAYS more active HOF pitchers with the necessary 10 seasons in at any given time than I've got here.

I was tempted to put Abreu on the list, but he could still have a disaster that would keep him out.

Oh, yeah. Ryan Freel. :D
You left off Trevor Hoffman
and you accidentally added Jim Edmonds
a guy with a .290 avg 1600 hits and 325 HRs after 13 seasons and at the age of 35 is no lock. Plus the fact that he is probably the 4th best defensive CF of his era doesnt help the Defense argument
Andruw Jones is 7 years younger, has 200 fewer hits, 30 fewer HRs, 100 fewer RBI, 200 fewer runs, and 70 more steals. His career avg. is 25 points lower, but he is the superior defensive player

[Orville Wrong]

You left off Trevor Hoffman
and you accidentally added Jim Edmonds
a guy with a .290 avg 1600 hits and 325 HRs after 13 seasons and at the age of 35 is no lock. Plus the fact that he is probably the 4th best defensive CF of his era doesnt help the Defense argument
Andruw Jones is 7 years younger, has 200 fewer hits, 30 fewer HRs, 100 fewer RBI, 200 fewer runs, and 70 more steals. His career avg. is 25 points lower, but he is the superior defensive player
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have included him. Forgot his AL career wasn't really that great. I wasn't watching him then. Hoffman, I considered, but the BBWA is very flaky with closers, and I thought Rivera was a shaky contention.

[Orville Wrong]

You left off Trevor Hoffman
and you accidentally added Jim Edmonds
a guy with a .290 avg 1600 hits and 325 HRs after 13 seasons and at the age of 35 is no lock. Plus the fact that he is probably the 4th best defensive CF of his era doesnt help the Defense argument
Andruw Jones is 7 years younger, has 200 fewer hits, 30 fewer HRs, 100 fewer RBI, 200 fewer runs, and 70 more steals. His career avg. is 25 points lower, but he is the superior defensive player
I don't think Andruw will make the Hall. I am biased against him because in my minor league fantasy draft in 1996, I took V. Guerrero over him and got mocked by another owner who promptly took Jones. I just looked at him like he was crazy, then grabbed Scott Rolen in the next round. He picked Hiram Bocachica and laughed again. Who's laughing now Delloite and Touche accountant asshole whose name I can't remember?

[Artpunchehorse]

I don't think Andruw will make the Hall. I am biased against him because in my minor league fantasy draft in 1996, I took V. Guerrero over him and got mocked by another owner who promptly took Jones. I just looked at him like he was crazy, then grabbed Scott Rolen in the next round. He picked Hiram Bocachica and laughed again. Who's laughing now Delloite and Touche accountant asshole whose name I can't remember?


We can all laugh at him during tax season when he working 16 hours a day. HA HA HA Asshole! (I've officially lost my mind BTW)

[The Ugly Thief]

I don't think Andruw will make the Hall.Andruw Jones will make the HOF in the first ballot. But I wanted to say this : I am a Braves fan, and I'm here to tell you that Andruw Jones is OVERRATED !!!

No doubt about it, he's the best CF these days. He makes some fantastic plays, and he is especially good at making difficult plays look routine. So, yes his defense is great, no doubt about it.

But the reason I'm saying he is overrated is that he is not a reliable hitter. His lifetime batting avg is .268. This year is by far his most productive offensive year & he is only batting around .275. Everyone wants to point to his 45 HRs so far this year, but there are some smaller stats that I believe would give a better indication of what kind of hitter he has been - such as his batting avg w/ RISP, and his SO to walks ratio. So many times this year I've seen him ground into a DP with runners on 1st & 2nd & nobody out - or strikeout with the bases loaded & only 1 out. Granted, he has a ton of RBIs this year, but he's just not a reliable hitter, and that is all forgotten whenever he hits one of those 420+ foot HR.

He'll get in on the fact that he'll hit 600HR & was a great CF. But I think anyone who follows baseball knows that hitting 600HR these days isn't the same as hitting 600HR about 25 or 30 years ago.

v

[The Ugly Thief]

Wow, I never thought of Trevor Hoffman as a HOFer, but I guess if the numbers are there, what can you say?
Trevor Hoffman shouldn't be a HOFer. He's a role player (closer), therefore his numbers need to be taken in the proper context. His career ERA is 2.74. For a starter that is a HOFer ERA. But when you look at it as a closer's numbers you need to consider these factors :

- he's only in to get 3 outs
- he is always well rested & fresh when he is pitching in a game
- every batter that he pitches against during that 9th inning has not had a chance to have an AB against him in the game, giving the closer a great advantage
- closers tend to build their entire career on only 2 pitches : a great fastball, and usually a devastating slider. Starters can never survive 7+ innings with only 2 pitches

because of these factors, I feel a closer needs to be judged on a different scale, and a 2.74 ERA isn't as amazing when you look at it that way, imo.

v

[The Sheck]

Trevor Hoffman shouldn't be a HOFer. He's a role player (closer), therefore his numbers need to be taken in the proper context. His career ERA is 2.74. For a starter that is a HOFer ERA. But when you look at it as a closer's numbers you need to consider these factors :

- he's only in to get 3 outs
- he is always well rested & fresh when he is pitching in a game
- every batter that he pitches against during that 9th inning has not had a chance to have an AB against him in the game, giving the closer a great advantage
- closers tend to build their entire career on only 2 pitches : a great fastball, and usually a devastating slider. Starters can never survive 7+ innings with only 2 pitches

because of these factors, I feel a closer needs to be judged on a different scale, and a 2.74 ERA isn't as amazing when you look at it that way, imo.

v

Are you being sarcastic here? I hope so...
:rolleyes:

[The Ugly Thief]

Are you being sarcastic here? I hope so...
:rolleyes:woah ! The Tool Sheck strikes again !

boy did you tell me !!!

v

[The Sheck]

woah ! The Tool Sheck strikes again !

boy did you tell me !!!

v

Dear Vincent,

You are being an ass.

Love,

The Sheck