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despondent
27 May 2005, 03:52 AM
newslink (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050527/ap_on_re_us/wiccans_divorce_order)

By KEN KUSMER, Associated Press Writer
Thu May 26, 8:26 PM ET



A Wiccan activist and his ex-wife are challenging a court's order that they must protect their 9-year-old son from what it calls their "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

The Indiana Civil Liberties Union has appealed the stipulation written into the couple's divorce order, saying it is unconstitutionally vague because it does not define mainstream religion.

Thomas Jones, a Wiccan activist who has coordinated Pagan Pride Day in Indianapolis for six years, said he and his ex-wife, Tammy Bristol, were stunned by the order. Neither parent has taken their son to any Wiccan rituals since it was issued, he said.

"We both had an instant resolve to challenge it. We could not accept it," Jones said Thursday. "I'm afraid I'll lose my son if I let him around when I practice my religion."

A court commissioner wrote the unusual order after a routine report by the court's Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau noted that both Jones and his ex-wife are pagans who send their son, Archer, to a Catholic elementary school.

In the order, the parents were "directed to take such steps as are needed to shelter Archer from involvement and observation of these non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals." The judge let the wording stand.

The order has been criticized by various religious and advocacy groups.

Barry Lynn, executive director of the Washington, D.C.-based Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said judges cannot substitute their religious judgment for that of parents in regard to the upbringing of children.

"This is an absurd result, because in the eyes of the law being a pagan should be no different from being a Presbyterian," he said.

Wiccans contend their religion is becoming more mainstream. The parents' appeal says there were about 1 million pagans worldwide in 2002, more than the numbers who practice Sikhism, Taoism and other established religions in the United States.

Wiccans consider themselves witches, pagans or neo-pagans, and say their religion is based on respect for the earth, nature and the cycle of the seasons.

"There continues to be misunderstanding and prejudice and discrimination, not only against Wicca but against any religion that is not centered on monotheism," said the Rev. Elena Fox, high priestess and senior minister of Circle Sanctuary, a Wiccan church and pagan resource center near Madison, Wis.

The head of a conservative Christian group also sided with the Wiccans.

"The parents have the right to raise their child in that faith, just as I have the right to raise my child in the Christian faith," said Micah Clark, executive director of the American Family Association of Indiana.

atomikdarling
27 May 2005, 07:26 AM
That is so unfathomably stupid. What the fuck.

miami2112
27 May 2005, 07:52 AM
america = freedom for my religion, not yours.

chuxxter
27 May 2005, 07:58 AM
Sometimes, contrary to any and all common sense, the most religious people also become the most judgemental and least forgiving. Amazing thing, religion. Personally, I would rather practice my Faith, not Religion.

BronxDJ
27 May 2005, 07:59 AM
I found it itneresting that they sent their son to a Catholic school. No religion is more tolerant of non-believers. Also, no religion has been more publicly hurtful to children with the recent abuse scandals.

Shlep
27 May 2005, 08:27 AM
Sometimes, contrary to any and all common sense, the most religious people also become the most judgemental and least forgiving. Amazing thing, religion.

Far too many people fill themselves with all of the letter and none of the spirit of their faith, regardless of which one it is.

SOmetimes it's to the point of being at once comical and pathetic...witness the recently-mentioned Jack Chick. Here's a guy who'c devoted decades to convincing as many people as possible that his God is a kind and loving God, infinite in his mercy, filled with compassion, and if you're one iota divergent from the interpretation of His word that Jack Chick espouses, you're gonna burn, burn,BURN!!

chuxxter
27 May 2005, 08:29 AM
, you're gonna burn, burn,BURN!!
This has always been one of my favorite contradictions from growing up Catholic. The teaching of an all-powerful, all-loving, all-forgiving God seemed to negate the purpose and necessity of Hell. I never did get it.

Shlep
27 May 2005, 08:30 AM
"This is an absurd result, because in the eyes of the law being a pagan should be no different from being a Presbyterian," he said.

**imagines "sky-clad" Presbyterians holding outdoor mass at midnight**

I just noticed this...

The head of a conservative Christian group also sided with the Wiccans.

"The parents have the right to raise their child in that faith, just as I have the right to raise my child in the Christian faith," said Micah Clark, executive director of the American Family Association of Indiana.

Nice to see a news story every one in awhile that shows that some Christians do get it.

markalot
27 May 2005, 08:47 AM
america = freedom for my religion, not yours.

One judges opinion does not = america. Notice how everyone is against this, including a conservative christian? This ruling is totally nuts.

thebluerobe
27 May 2005, 09:02 AM
Chalk another one up for reasons to never move back where I grew up. I know everyone in Indiana isn't like this court commissioner but there are too many people just like him/her.

redmeg8
27 May 2005, 09:04 AM
Sigh. Ridiculous.

Fernie
27 May 2005, 09:32 AM
Chalk another one up for reasons to never move back where I grew up. I know everyone in Indiana isn't like this court commissioner but there are too many people just like him/her.

Off topic - Sorry.

This is only your 3rd post since February of 2002? Holy CWAP!

Back to the discussion of the stupidity and self-righteousness of others.

Orville Wrong
27 May 2005, 09:51 AM
This article from the Indianapolis Star (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050527/NEWS01/505270510/1006) has a lot more information, including the opinions of a legal scholar who believes this stands no chance of surviving an appeal. The judge can't comment, and there's a mysterious caseworker recommendation somehow involved, but nobody seems to have devised a defense for the offending paragraph.

The parents aren't committed to "indoctrinating" Archer, as he's being educated by the Jesuits and attending a Unitarian church.

"He's going to make his own path, in his own time," [the boy's father] said.

Curious.

postfeminist
27 May 2005, 03:43 PM
whatever, pagans are irritating.

there are no [sarc] tags because i'm not being sarcastic.

lawdog
27 May 2005, 04:14 PM
whatever, pagans are irritating.


Yeah, but they're actually less irritating that Christians, since you can pretty much avoid pagans if you make an effort, but Christians are everywhere.

postfeminist
27 May 2005, 04:58 PM
<3 <3 <3 <3

i <3 <3 <3 <3 you too. :)

Homsar
27 May 2005, 10:39 PM
You think the judge studied the Constitution in grade school?