Current Rolling Stone

[slopechz]

Funny excerpt by Tim Dickinson:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/7314869

Just Say No

Brazil has turned down $40 million in AIDS funding from the Bush administration, saying the money comes with too many strings attached. A provision -- sponsored by Sen. Bill Frist and signed by Bush -- requires foreign recipients of AIDS funds to denounce the "abhorrent" practice of prostitution. But Brazil -- widely considered a model in the fight against HIV -- has cut AIDS deaths by sixty percent by working with prostitutes and other high-risk groups. "We can't fight HIV with principles that are fundamentalist and Shiite," says Dr. Pedro Chequer, director of Brazil's AIDS program. "You can have a prostitute with almost zero risk, and you can have a member of Bush's church with an incredibly high risk. It just depends on whether they use a condom."

[awscoreida]

that's awesome!!!

[Homsar]

"We can't fight HIV with principles that are fundamentalist and Shiite,"

Interesting.

[sparkie]

thats great, i always considered bushs party people as filhy whores. its nice to see my opinion has been validated.

[Jeff_in_Datyon]

whats impressive is the degree to which Brazil has cut its infection rate.

[akip]

good for them. fuck the self-righteous meddlers.

[ICONOCLAST420]

Government (taxpayer) funds always come with strings attached, just a political "carrot on a stick".

[akip]

Government (taxpayer) funds always come with strings attached, just a political "carrot on a stick".

the problem is when those strings are ideological rather than practical.

[LadyJo]

It's bad enough these morons want to bring "morals" back to America, but now they have to push their agenda on the rest of the world? :rolleyes:
Way to go Brazil!

[Sovrana]

Brazil, along with most of the other Latin American countries share a history of colonization and totalitarian governments so it is no surprise that they are quite capable of standing up against fundamentalists.

[the happy prole]

I have a hard time bashing the US on this. I don't agree with the Bush administration's point of view, but it's hardly pushing fundamentalism. You don't want the money, then don't take it.

And before you go to far with the whole Christian right thing, how many of you think prostitution in Brazil and other poor countries is a good thing?

It would have been extremely lame had they imposed these requirements on US groups working overseas, or on multinational groups. Fortunately the Bush administration has backed off on that.

[the happy prole]

Well, I agree with you.

But at some level it does become whether to accept things as they are (with rampant prostitution) or try to change things and I can see why someone might take the other side. The point is, condemning prostitution is as much a mark of left-wingers as it is right-wing Christians.

[despondent]

Prostitution will never be eliminated. It's the world's oldest profession for a reason. We as humans are wired to be sexual and as long as the poor can use this most basic of human desires to make money to survive they will. It's not like our society and culture is so much superior that we should be pressing it upon foreign nations anyway. If this bill wants recipients to denounce prostitution as "abhorrent" then shouldn't the sponsors look in their own backyard? There are locations in the U.S. where prostitution is legal. Hyprocrisy...gotta love it!

[the happy prole]

Yeah, but we're not talking about Las Vegas brothels or even the ol' "look-the-other-way" you get in the European countries.

You're talking about 15 year old kids out on the streets being raped and abused. You could argue that the poor will always find work at sweat shops as well. If you have a problem with kids working for nothing to assemble your Nikes, you ought to have a serious problem with prostitution as well.

[despondent]

Yeah, but we're not talking about Las Vegas brothels or even the ol' "look-the-other-way" you get in the European countries.

You're talking about 15 year old kids out on the streets being raped and abused. You could argue that the poor will always find work at sweat shops as well. If you have a problem with kids working for nothing to assemble your Nikes, you ought to have a serious problem with prostitution as well.
I agree with you on the abuse, especially of children. However, I didn't get the impression that the sponsors of this bill were concerned with that as much as it was a fundamentalist view on sex itself.

[akip]

where are some articles or some information about brazil's prostitution that compare it to other countries? I honestly haven't seen anything that shows it's on some incredible level above other places in the world.


considering they have an epidemic of parentless children living on the street, i'd imagine it's pretty bad.

[akip]

here's a couple google items:

1995 article (http://pangaea.org/street_children/latin/prost.htm)

2004 article (http://www.brazzil.com/content/view/8863/76/) from which i take this exerpt:

The ECA says that children can only travel with their parents’ approval. In practice, many children are trafficked for the aim of child prostitution. Girls from the countryside have been recruited in the major cities as prostitutes at erotic clubs, modeling agencies, and want ads.

In places along the coast, sexual tourism has involved their prostitution by travel agents, hotel workers, taxi drivers, etc. The U.N. estimates that 500,000 children are victims of sexual abuse throughout the country. (9)

By 2002, for instance, the International Labor Organization (ILO) reported that 3,000 girls from the scarcely populated state of Rondônia were subjected to forced labor and/or prostitution. (10)

In 1992, the National Congress decided to establish a special commission in order to investigate the serious problem of child prostitution, and found that only in the city of Rio de Janeiro more than 500 girls ranging from 8 to 15 years old were working as prostitutes.

The Congress also confirmed that police officers had been involved in this kind of prostitution. (11) In fact, even politicians themselves are involved in child prostitution.

In 2003, for example, the police caught five city council members from Porto Ferreira, in São Paulo state, having group sexual activities with minors between 11 and 16 years old, who were paid with drugs and/or US$ 11 to US$18 each one. (12)

On July 2004, the National Congress conducted another detailed investigation and found that hundreds of politicians, judges, and business leaders were involved in sexual exploitation of minors. Some reports talk about sexual abuse of nursing babies.

The investigation discovered, for example, that the vice-Governor of Amazonas had required sexual services to a network of prostitution recruiting 16 year-old girls. (13)

[akip]

thanks, classicgirl. Now if this were a different topic, and I was a different person, I'd ask you what qualifications the writer had, where she got her degree from, and question her research methods.


which reminds me - my guns, germs book came in today - i need to go get that.

just use your google. there's a multitude of legit sources, all saying the same thing. half a million kids are victims of sexual abuse, including prostitution.

i liked guns, germs & steel, btw. i love those geographical explanations of culture.

[Handy Smurf]

thanks, classicgirl. Now if this were a different topic, and I was a different person, I'd ask you what qualifications the writer had, where she got her degree from, and question her research methods. When you tried to share with me your knowledge of the situation, i'd brand you a know it all, even though you said read it for yourself.

but since evidence like this seems to be acceptable for non race topics, I'll do what I think most normal people do when someone tells them a situation is a certain way, they take it at face value and agree that it's a horrible thing.

which reminds me - my guns, germs book came in today - i need to go get that.
thank you for the addition of that incredibly relevant and necessary post. you continue to impress everyone with your knowledge of how great you are

[chuxxter]

thanks, classicgirl. Now if this were a different topic, and I was a different person, I'd ask you what qualifications the writer had, where she got her degree from, and question her research methods. When you tried to share with me your knowledge of the situation, i'd brand you a know it all, even though you said read it for yourself.

but since evidence like this seems to be acceptable for non race topics, I'll do what I think most normal people do when someone tells them a situation is a certain way, they take it at face value and agree that it's a horrible thing.

which reminds me - my guns, germs book came in today - i need to go get that.
It is this type of belligerent, sarcastic, bombastic, whiny post that causes me to lose all respect for you, Frost. You can't even say Thanks in a nice, respectful way. 100% agreement is not possible, so get over it and move on.

[Semiapies]

I agree with you on the abuse, especially of children. However, I didn't get the impression that the sponsors of this bill were concerned with that as much as it was a fundamentalist view on sex itself.
Well, of course not. Otherwise, we'd have to admit that the "other guy" isn't utterly evil and may actually think he's trying to help people, even if we think his method is wrong. :)

[Buzzstein]

why are you all jumping on frost?? I don't see anything wrong with his posts in this thread.

[Handy Smurf]

No, you continue to follow me around like a jerk.

In this thread I explicitly admitted my lack of knowledge of the situation. Quit trying to turn that around into something it isn't.

Originally Posted by Frost
thanks, classicgirl. Now if this were a different topic, and I was a different person, I'd ask you what qualifications the writer had, where she got her degree from, and question her research methods. When you tried to share with me your knowledge of the situation, i'd brand you a know it all, even though you said read it for yourself.
sorry, wouldnt want to make it something it isnt
I totally agree with you chuxx

[chuxxter]

sorry, wouldnt want to make it something it isnt
I totally agree with you chuxx
Thanx Handy.

[Handy Smurf]

again, I admitted my lack of knowledge and asked for information. when it was provided, I did what people normally do, accept it and express disdain at the situation. There shouldn't be a problem with that. I know you're on some mission to turn everything I say into some grandiose self-righteous proclamation, but get over it. That image you have that I know, or think I know it all, is not me. I don't know, or think I know it all. leave me alone.
ok, fine thats not my mission, it never has been

My response was due to the fact that that is the second post in the past few days I viewed as an unprovoked potshot at me. Maybe I jumped to conclusions, if thats the case, I apologize.
I'm willing to accept the fact that there are certain things we will probably never agree on. I'm fine with that. I still contend there is a difference between bringing up something you read to prove there is a major problem with homeless, parentless children in Brazil and bringing up something you read to try to use as support for an argument that police officers, in an act of gross misconduct, were racially motivated. Maybe they were, but its not something "research" can prove.
For the record, I dont know if youve noticed, but I have quite frequently thanked you for information you posted while attempting to engage in civil discourse.
I am willing to let bygones be bygones, but I'd imagine we're better off not discussing anything in CE/P if thats going to be the case. It'd be a shame if these fits of bickering kept us from talking at all, because between sports and hiphop, Id imagine we each have at least a little worthwhile to share with the other

[Handy Smurf]

hey, if you're cool, I'm cool. Common comes out tomorrow
I'll be buying that and Gorillaz
The Corner has been blaring out of my car windows for a few weeks now

[slopechz]

Hmmm, I just read the posts to this thread. Boy the shit hit the fan so to speak. Is it always so hot and heavy in here? :D