PDA

View Full Version : And You Thought America Was Bad?


ahart2001
19 May 2005, 07:49 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7897532/

Targeting badly behaved Britons
Mall bans 'hoodies' in latest effort to curb yob culture

By Jennifer Carlile
Reporter
MSNBC
Updated: 2:29 p.m. ET May 18, 2005

BLUEWATER SHOPPING CENTER, England - Although accustomed for decades to violence from "yobs" and football hooligans, Britain is stepping up its fight against what's been dubbed an epidemic of antisocial behavior.

The perpetrators of the thuggery have been identified as "hoodies," young people who wear hoods and caps to avoid detection and give off a threatening image.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has made banishment of this street crime a priority for his third term of office, while one of his closest aides has disclosed a scary encounter with the teenage gangs that roam Britain's urban areas.

Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott, who once launched a fierce left hook to retaliate for a thrown egg during an election campaign, described his alarm at being accosted by a large group of hooded youths.

“I went to a motorway café about a year ago and some kid said something to me,” he said. “I said ‘what did you say?’ and he came back with 10 people with hoods, you know, these fellas with hoods on.

“He came at me in a very intimidating manner,” the 66-year-old said.

Prescott, who was rescued from any possible attack by his security detail, is one of the big supporters of Blair's decision to focus on street crime.

'Uniform' for thugs and degenerates
Although gun crime here pales when compared with the United States, binge-drinking, street brawls, vandalism, muggings, and general menace are seen to be terrorizing the public.

The United Kingdom is the most-monitored nation in the world, with more than 4 million closed-circuit television cameras operating around the country. But culprits frequently evade Big Brother’s watchful eye by concealing their identities with the ubiquitous head wear.

"I think the fact you go around with these hats and these covers... I mean, it is a uniform, in a sense," Prescott said last week.

As a result, a large shopping center in southeast England offered a new tact by implementing a "code of conduct" that includes a ban on the wearing of "hoodies."

The 330-store Bluewater center in Kent drew up the code of conduct to outline its “zero tolerance approach to antisocial behavior” following consultations with guests and staff.

In addition to banning head coverings (other than those used for religious purposes) and swearing, “groups of more than five without the intention to shop will be asked to leave the center,” the mall’s leaflet says.

Blair last week praised the initiative. “This type of disrespect and yobbish behavior will not be tolerated any more,” he said.

“I think it’s marvelous,” Bluewater shopper Jill Hopper said of the initiative this week.

“It’s such a pleasant atmosphere here; you don’t want a whole group of hoodies coming around — it’s great they’re taking these kids on,” the 46-year-old said.

“They do intimidate some people and that’s their aim,” said 27-year-old shopper Adam Cropper.

His girlfriend Laura Thomas, 23, added, “They’re all quite young and trying to act older … they wear (hoods) to make people think they’re stealing even if they don’t have the balls to do it, it’s all part of their act."

Cropper, a doorman, and Thomas, a bar manager, both added that they would like to see a complete ban on caps and hoods in city centers.

Tackling antisocial behavior
Bluewater’s code of conduct follows in the footsteps of other government and private initiatives to quash hooliganism that include:

Handing out antisocial behavior orders (ASBOS), some of which bar offending youths from entering city centers or visiting former partners in crime.
Passing out yellow and red cards in a warning system similar to that used on the soccer field.
Giving away chocolate to prevent alcohol-fueled violence.
Banning the designer label Burberry (an apparent favorite with teen gangs) from some bars and clubs.
Blair’s new minister for antisocial behavior, Hazel Blears, also suggested this week that teenage offenders wear uniforms while carrying out community punishments to shame them publicly and show the community that something is being done to reprimand them.

"I want them to be identified," Blears told the Observer.

While some of these measures may sound odd, the government and private venues are in a sticky situation.

Many “antisocials” are under 18 and know they can’t be prosecuted as harshly as adults. And, while the combination of loud music, graffiti, brawling, drunkenness, and petty theft have serious affects on communities, few single crimes carry heavy punishments.

Rights group urges mall boycott
Despite the Labour Party’s enthusiastic support for Bluewater’s ban on hoods, the opposition Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, along with child-welfare experts have spoken out against the mall’s clothing rule, and Blear’s uniform plan was deemed “a nasty gimmick,” by the rights group Liberty.

One group went as far as to urge youths to boycott Bluewater.

"The Children's Society urges children and young people to use their yearly spending power of 70 million pounds to reverse the ban on so called 'yob' clothing at Bluewater Shopping Center,” the Christian social justice organization said in a press release.

“This ban is a case of blatant discrimination based on stereotypes and prejudices that only fuels fear,” it said.

Some shoppers at the landscaped complex that offers outdoor boating, fishing, and a putting green agreed with the organization.

“It’s stupid; what you wear doesn’t say who you are,” said 28-year-old Dan Beckenham. “A well-dressed business man could be a mugger too,” the sales manager said.

‘Gonna buy a hoodie just to see what happens’
In other cases, the ban appeared to fuel teens’ desire to rebel.

“I don’t wear hats cause my head’s too big, but now I’m gonna buy a hoodie just to see what happens,” said 18-year-old Richard Morris, a student and part-time mall employee.

Another 18-year-old, Lee Chapple, who was wearing a cap at the time, said, “I’m not gonna stop wearing what I normally wear — afterall, I got a reputation to look after.”

Despite widespread media coverage and pamphlets posted around the center, 22-year-old student Sam Lam said he had not heard about the new “code of conduct” and was sporting a gray, woven beanie at the mall this week.

Upon learning of the ban he said: “I can see where they’re coming from. It’s to defeat crime from young yobs cause people advertise themselves in certain ways, but from my perspective it’s not justified cause I wear this hat as a fashion icon.”

Bluewater sees itself as a pioneer. “We’re leading this issue,” said Becky Rowlings of Brave PR, which represents Bluewater.

“But many centers have asked to see the 'code of conduct' so it may be more widespread in the future.”

© 2005 MSNBC Interactive

miami2112
19 May 2005, 08:13 AM
if they're wearing hoodies, they're hoods, duh!

chuxxter
19 May 2005, 08:13 AM
I keep saying young=stupid. I am just happy it holds true for other countries as well :snickers: :p ;)

miami2112
19 May 2005, 08:25 AM
i just dont get the need to terroize ppl the way some youths do. i suppose its a power/control/attention thing.

Duemellon
19 May 2005, 08:32 AM
i just dont get the need to terroize ppl the way some youths do. i suppose its a power/control/attention thing.it's exactly the power/control thing.

When you don't feel you can control your own life you start to look for other ways to demonstrate your power. Brittain is retrograding personal liberties just as much as the US is. These 2 superpowers, unchecked, are finding it easier to limit the challenges internally.

However, like water, the harder you squeeze it in your hands the more it will spring out of your fingers.

Prepare for a cultural revolution.

Slugworth
19 May 2005, 08:33 AM
I don't just think America was bad, but I think the whole early 70's soft/folk-rock movement was bad. Jim Croce, Bread, Gordon Lightfoot...all bad.

Sure, "A Horse With No Name" was terrible, but so was a lot of that type of music at the time.






Hmm?


Oh...CE/P, NOT Music Discussion?! My bad.

:p

chuxxter
19 May 2005, 08:41 AM
Prepare for a cultural revolution.
UM, isn't that what they called it in China? :p I hope so, Due, truly, madly, deeply.

miami2112
19 May 2005, 08:46 AM
I don't just think America was bad, but I think the whole early 70's soft/folk-rock movement was bad. Jim Croce, Bread, Gordon Lightfoot...all bad.

Sure, "A Horse With No Name" was terrible, but so was a lot of that type of music at the time. :p

hey sluggs, dont knock gordo's "wreck of the edmund fitzgerald". that song is holy up here in detroit.

due - cultural revolution?? nah, ppl are too busy playing ps2, listening to ipods to bother. average person = apathetic.

this type of behavior is summed up in my mind by a trip to the zoo. there are those ppl who can just view the animals for their beauty (whatever else) and move on. others have to throw something at the animals and just have the animals, and other humans, notice them - give them attention. these kids, and too many adults, are those who have to get external attention to justify their existance. i suppose its too much to ask for ppl to be self-reliant.

Duemellon
19 May 2005, 08:52 AM
due - cultural revolution?? nah, ppl are too busy playing ps2, listening to ipods to bother. average person = apathetic.I disagree that they will remain apathetic as the govnt gets tighter control over their liberties.

Nazism was a cultural revolution. Italian Fascism was a revolution. Rennisiance and the 70's were a revolution. Revolutions aren't always good, but they're a major polarization with one group gaining control over the other that didn't have the control previously.

markalot
19 May 2005, 08:52 AM
Muskrat Suzie muskrat Sam do the jitter bug in muskrat land ...

And here you thought Captain & Tennille wrote that song eh?

http://www.captainandtennille.net/images/ctimage_2.jpg

ahart2001
19 May 2005, 09:09 AM
However, like water, the harder you squeeze it in your hands the more it will spring out of your fingers.



Kinda like a squirt gun? I want squirt gun fingers!

tobedawg
19 May 2005, 11:33 AM
I don't just think America was bad, but I think the whole early 70's soft/folk-rock movement was bad. Jim Croce, Bread, Gordon Lightfoot...all bad.

"Time in a Bottle" was a killer track!! :cool:

miami2112
19 May 2005, 11:38 AM
"Time in a Bottle" was a killer track!! :cool:


last time i heard that song... prom. thats a long time ago.

Homsar
19 May 2005, 11:46 AM
Yes, I'm sure banning hoodies will solve the problem.
I mean, why put effort towards the root causes when you can just ban clothes?

ahart2001
19 May 2005, 11:50 AM
Yes, I'm sure banning hoodies will solve the problem.
I mean, why put effort towards the root causes when you can just ban clothes?


EXACTLY!

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

jd1
19 May 2005, 12:06 PM
All I know is that no hood-clad yobboes go around terrorizing the citizens of Covington, KY. Why is that?

--JD

Handy Smurf
19 May 2005, 12:07 PM
average person = apathetic
I've been saying this for years. Thats precisely why socialism would never work

chuxxter
19 May 2005, 12:10 PM
All I know is that no hood-clad yobboes go around terrorizing the citizens of Covington, KY. Why is that?

--JD
Maybe because nobody can find the friggin' place? :p

seafoamgreen
19 May 2005, 01:37 PM
They'll take my hoodie when they pry it from my cold dead hands. or body. whatever.

Dumb Hick
19 May 2005, 01:41 PM
Now, are we talkin about circumscision?

miami2112
19 May 2005, 01:41 PM
They'll take my hoodie when they pry it from my cold dead hands. or body. whatever.


i just knew you were one of "them" :rolleyes:

Phreon
23 May 2005, 10:43 PM
"The United Kingdom is the most-monitored nation in the world, with more than 4 million closed-circuit television cameras operating around the country. But culprits frequently evade Big Brother’s watchful eye by concealing their identities with the ubiquitous head wear."

Maybe there's a lot of pent up anger brewing over the pond because of all the insane restrictions in the name of "security". Yes, we have cameras, etc. but think about it, 4 million suveillance cameras in a country as small as England.

Didn't their wanker gov't learn anything in the 70s? And why can't our "elected" officials take a damned hint: removing people's liberties solves nothing!

Repress our problems and they'll go away! Right. Sounds like a prescription for neurosis.

Phreon

Homsar
23 May 2005, 10:48 PM
Sounds like hoodies are a reaction to the surveillence.
I love how new problems are created.
All those cameras would be creepy.
I'm guessing they're all in urban areas?

locofly
23 May 2005, 10:56 PM
The hoodies kinda remind me of a recent trip through Cincinnati...
It was a beautiful day and I had to pick my little bro up at UC. Anyway, I guess I was driving though one of the more dangerous neighborhoods...
Is this white shirt thing restricted to Cincy? Seriously, there were so many people out and 90% of the dudes had big baggy white shirts. It was kinda eerie. From a distance most people looked the same, which my little brother informed me was the idea.

yoshomon
23 May 2005, 11:27 PM
Surveillance cameras are becoming a bigger issue in the U.S. too.

Some interesting sources on that...
Security Camera Players: http://www.notbored.org/the-scp.html
You Are Under Surveillance: http://www.crimethinc.com/supervision/

Duemellon
24 May 2005, 06:15 AM
It was kinda eerie. From a distance most people looked the same, which my little brother informed me was the idea.easier to hide stuff & blend. When a crime occurs the initial description of the perp is what they're wearing.

miami2112
24 May 2005, 07:40 AM
hard to believe how americans are willing to let their personal liberties evaporate when the gov rattles its "terrorism" sabres, cowing us into letting them violate our freedoms in the name of "the war on terrorism". i have never been in favor of the patriot act, and never will be.

BronxDJ
24 May 2005, 08:34 AM
hard to believe how americans are willing to let their personal liberties evaporate when the gov rattles its "terrorism" sabres, cowing us into letting them violate our freedoms in the name of "the war on terrorism". i have never been in favor of the patriot act, and never will be.

I do believe it was Ben Franklin who said that those who are willing to sacrifice a little liberty for security deserve neither. Important words in our post 9/11 rush to give up our hard fought personal freedoms.

Re: the beginning of the string and the hoodies and England, Sinead O'Connor wrote that England is the "home of poice who kill black boys on mopeds."

chuxxter
24 May 2005, 08:58 AM
I do believe it was Ben Franklin who said that those who are willing to sacrifice a little liberty for security deserve neither. Important words in our post 9/11 rush to give up our hard fought personal freedoms.

Re: the beginning of the string and the hoodies and England, Sinead O'Connor wrote that England is the "home of poice who kill black boys on mopeds."
Thank you. I have been trying to remember that quote ever since my buddy tried to convince me how important The Patriot Act was. If there was ever anything introduced that could lead to more governmental abuses I certainly don't know about it.

jd1
24 May 2005, 09:01 AM
easier to hide stuff & blend. When a crime occurs the initial description of the perp is what they're wearing.Yes, this is why the perps dress that way... But it only works if all the non-perps do so as well. Why should they do it? Why make it easy on the perps? Either everyone is on the plot, or some other factor creates the attire environment that the perps can readily blend in with.

--JD

BronxDJ
24 May 2005, 09:36 AM
Thank you. I have been trying to remember that quote ever since my buddy tried to convince me how important The Patriot Act was. If there was ever anything introduced that could lead to more governmental abuses I certainly don't know about it.

There is a document put out by the Project for a New American Century, that actually may be the name of the document, authored by Wolfowitz, Bill Kristol, Pearls, and other neo-cons. It was written during Clinton's presidency and it advocated ousting Saddam, exerting greater influenc in the mideast to gain power through greater control of oil, anbd it advocated curtailing civil liberties in the US. The authors recognized in the document that the American public would not go for these things the authors felt were vital for the power brokers in the US to maintain/increase their power absent a Pearl Harbor like incident to make the populace feel threatened. I do not subscribe to the conspiracy theorists who say the White House helped plan 9/11 to bring about these changes, but the Whjite House looked at 9/11 as a godsend to implement this PNAC document as the foreign and domestic policy of the US.

BronxDJ
24 May 2005, 09:41 AM
Yes, this is why the perps dress that way... But it only works if all the non-perps do so as well. Why should they do it? Why make it easy on the perps? Either everyone is on the plot, or some other factor creates the attire environment that the perps can readily blend in with.

--JD

Could it be that there is a fasion/style among teenagers and teens are strongly influenced by peer pressure to conform to their own cultural norms? This has always been the case. In the late 60's it was P Coats and/or army jackets, bell bottoms, tye dyes, etc. Hip Hop and youth culture presnet an image that adlescents and young adults try to be a part of. It is like other ages. The Beatles influenced hair style. Saturday Night Fever had a negative impact on music, dance and dress for a while. There are countless examples.

jd1
24 May 2005, 09:44 AM
Could it be that there is a fasion/style among teenagers and teens are strongly influenced by peer pressure to conform to their own cultural norms? This has always been the case. In the late 60's it was P Coats and/or army jackets, bell bottoms, tye dyes, etc. Hip Hop and youth culture presnet an image that adlescents and young adults try to be a part of. It is like other ages. The Beatles influenced hair style. Saturday Night Fever had a negative impact on music, dance and dress for a while. There are countless examples.Yes, of course... But Due's post, combined with Loco's, suggested that the style was popular specifically as a way for perps to blend in, which strikes me as unlikely. If I've read something into all that whcih Due didn't intend then I apologize. That was all I was sayin.

--JD

BronxDJ
24 May 2005, 10:17 AM
Yes, of course... But Due's post, combined with Loco's, suggested that the style was popular specifically as a way for perps to blend in, which strikes me as unlikely. If I've read something into all that whcih Due didn't intend then I apologize. That was all I was sayin.

--JD

I think you and I are saying similar things. I guess my reply was more to Due's comments.

chuxxter
24 May 2005, 10:22 AM
I think you and I are saying similar things. I guess my reply was more to Due's comments.
Hey, this is completely off topic, but I am an old bronx boy. Where you at??

BronxDJ
24 May 2005, 10:43 AM
Hey, this is completely off topic, but I am an old bronx boy. Where you at??

I work in Mott haven (made famous by Jonothan Kozol in Amazing Grace and Ordinary Resurrections . I live in Bedford Park area. I am originally from Cleveland.

locofly
24 May 2005, 10:57 AM
easier to hide stuff & blend. When a crime occurs the initial description of the perp is what they're wearing.

That's what I understand anyway. It makes plenty of sense in terms of hiding stuff since they often go down to the knees.
In addition to that, just pick a few crime reports and count the number of suspects wearing the white shirts.
I remember reading a story about it in the Enquirer I think, but I can't seem to find it now.

edit: Here (http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/09/loc_loc1ashirt.html) is the story I was looking for...
Conveniently, I think it really could be a little bit of style and something more for others. I mean, if you're a criminal, would you be the one guy on the block wearing a red shirt?

chuxxter
24 May 2005, 10:59 AM
I work in Mott haven (made famous by Jonothan Kozol in Amazing Grace and Ordinary Resurrections . I live in Bedford Park area. I am originally from Cleveland.
I was raised in the Highbridge section and eventually ended up in Throggs Neck Pleased to meet ya'. ;)