Mount St. Helens Victims' Kin Sound Off

[markalot]

My god these people are stupid. It was a fucking volcano ... you know, fire and brimstone, big explosions, unpredictable. Let's sue someone.

- - - - -

By RUKMINI CALLIMACHI, Associated Press Writer2 hours, 47 minutes ago

The four, their lungs filled with ash, were found inside their car after Mount St. Helens erupted on May 18, 1980, with the force of a hydrogen bomb.

Rescuers also discovered a cassette recorded by Ron and Barbara Seibold's children, ages 7 and 9, as the family drove toward the volcano.

"They were goofing around — asking whether or not they would see lava coming out of the mountain," said Jim Thomas, an emergency worker at the time. "One asked if it was dangerous, and both parents cheerfully reassured their kids that they'd be safe."

They weren't.

Like the Seibolds, most of the volcano's 57 victims were caught in the avalanche of boiling mud and ash in sections of the mountain considered safe for camping and recreation. Most died of suffocation as ash filled their throats, noses and lungs.

Twenty-five years after the fatal eruption, victims' families want to stress that their loved ones did not die because of their own recklessness.


"My mother would never ever, ever, ever, ever have killed her own daughter," said Roxann Edwards, of Scio, Ore., who was 18 when her mother and sister set off for a day trip to the mountain. Their bodies were found in the branches of separate hemlock trees, about four miles outside the restricted zones.

On television the day after the eruption, then-Gov. Dixie Lee Ray said most of the victims had ignored official warnings and deliberately went into harm's way. President Carter echoed that comment, saying: "One of the reasons for the loss of life that has occurred is that tourists and other interested people, curious people, refused to comply with the directives issued by the governor."

On Monday, victims' families asked for an apology from Gov. Christine Gregoire on behalf of the late Gov. Ray.

Gregoire said she has no firsthand knowledge of the decisions from that time, but added there has been much progress in preparing for natural disasters.

"I hope it is some consolation to their families that the knowledge we've acquired will help us avoid further tragedy," she said in a prepared statement.

In the weeks leading up to the eruption, tourists were routinely trying to get by roadblocks, said Bob Landon, former chief of the Washington State Patrol. But when the bodies were finally recovered, it became clear that only a handful had died within the off-limits area, he said.

Of the 57 who died on the mountain, only three are known to have been killed within the "red zone," the area cordoned off by officials before the eruption. Another three — all miners carrying permits — died in the adjacent "blue zone," an area closed to the general public but open to permit-carrying workers.

Washington state officials argued that the blast was unprecedented and that there was no way for them to have foreseen the scale of the disaster, which ripped trees out of the ground 17 miles from the crater and devastated an area spanning 230 square miles. Within hours, its plume had blocked the sun over much of eastern Washington. Ash fell like snow as far away as Montana.

The possibility of a far larger eruption had been discussed, but it stayed among scientists, said Richard Waitt, a geologist at the USGS's Cascades Volcano Observatory in Vancouver.

"We all have blood on our hands, if you want to look at it that way," said Waitt, who was one of a handful of scientists who had tried to warn his superiors that the blast area could be far larger than originally imagined. But even if scientists had predicted the true scope of the catastrophe, Waitt said, it's unlikely the state could have restricted access because much of the blast site was on private property.

The red zone was almost entirely within the Gifford Pinchot National Forest. It ended where the landholdings of timber giant, Weyerhaeuser Co., began, Waitt said.

That became the basis for a lawsuit brought by the victims' families, who alleged that the restricted areas were based on property lines, not science. The case against the state was dismissed in 1985, after the court ruled that state officials did not know how destructive the eruption was going to be. Some families sued Weyerhaeuser, settling for a reported $225,000 — an amount that many said was a pittance.

"No one brings their kids to a place they consider unsafe," said Donna Parker, whose brother had been camping nearly three miles outside the restricted zones when the volcano erupted. When Parker made it to the site of her brother's death, she found that the eggs inside his cooler had been hard-boiled by the heat.

"And this was supposed to be a safe place?" said Parker, 66. "The state owes us an apology."

___

On the Net:

http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/mshnvm/

[Nellie Bly]

I think this belongs in the cultural reversal thread. Now the government has to apologize for a natural disaster? Even now there isn't a good or consistent way to correctly anticipate what sort of eruption will occur and how large the damage swath will be. And why are they asking for it now? Instead of the months following the eruption.

These people drove toward an exploding mountain, that's not reckless?

[despondent]

I think this should be taken a step further. The governments and officials from all major religions should issue an apology to all humans for being born. They should just acknowledge that if no one had been born then there would be no suffering at all. :rolleyes:

[jd1]

When Parker made it to the site of her brother's death, she found that the eggs inside his cooler had been hard-boiled by the heat.How do they know he wasn't carrying hard-boiled eggs in the cooler? Maybe for lunch later or something?

--JD

[chuxxter]

Yet another example of the crumbling of our so-called civilization. Moronic. :mad:

[PeterABnny]

You know, it's a pity that Ron and Barbara Seibold had to die like that when they knowingly drove themselves - and their hapless kids - into a volcano blast zone. With that kind of utter stupidity, they could have had a long, successful career in management here at Millennium Business Systems.

[Shlep]

Twenty-five years after the fatal eruption, victims' families want to stress that their loved ones did not die because of their own recklessness.


"My mother would never ever, ever, ever, ever have killed her own daughter," said Roxann Edwards, of Scio, Ore., who was 18 when her mother and sister set off for a day trip to the mountain. Their bodies were found in the branches of separate hemlock trees, about four miles outside the restricted zones.

No lady, your mother didn't kill her own daughter, Mount St. Helens killed her. Your mother just set the conditions for it to happen by being a simpleton.

This isn't hard to figure out: a bunch of people had to grow up knowing that some loved ones' are dead because other loved ones' were idiots. Now, they want the state of Washington to officially decree that the people were not properly warned and, by extension, absolve them of their idiocy.

[ahart2001]

How do they know he wasn't carrying hard-boiled eggs in the cooler? Maybe for lunch later or something?

--JD


Well duh! Cause then he'd have to de-shell them. I mean who wants to de-shell eggs on a picnic or camping? You de-shell them before you left. Or you'd have them sliced on a sandwich.

[Duemellon]

There are some things which are common sense. Well, maybe not as common as you'd think. But really? Do they have to put a big yellow warning side on the side of an erupting volcano that says:


Danger!

Contents under pressure

¡peligro!
Contenido bajo presión.

[Patas]

No lady, your mother didn't kill her own daughter, Mount St. Helens killed her. Your mother just set the conditions for it to happen by being a simpleton.

This isn't hard to figure out: a bunch of people had to grow up knowing that some loved ones' are dead because other loved ones' were idiots. Now, they want the state of Washington to officially decree that the people were not properly warned and, by extension, absolve them of their idiocy.
Amen. It's a Freakin' Natural Disaster People!!!! A Volcano erupted and your family died. I'm sorry it happened, but this is no one's fault.

[Duemellon]

but this is no one's fault. [/SIZE]If you beleive in God's hand in everything you can sue his ass. I don't think you have a chance to win a case, but you can try.

[supra-genius]

They arent blaming the govt for the deaths, they are assking for an apology because the govt said that these people died as a result of their own actions, they thay consciously ignored warnings to stay away, in effect, the govt said these people are responcible for their own deaths.

Did the governer say that? Yes.
Was it true? Yes.
Could he have not said it? Yes, they were dead, and using their deaths as an 'I told you so" was probably a bad idea.
Does the state need to apologize? No. But then, what would be the harm in saying "Hey, we were both wrong, they should have listened and we needed to make sure they were further away. We have learned from this tragedy and are working to make sure its never repeated." :confused:

[Shlep]

Should the relatives of everyone killed in California earthquakes sue the state of California since in spite of the continued and ever-present threat of violent earthquakes, the state of California didn't adequately warn everyone within a certain proximity of the San Andreas fault line that yes, indeed, the ground might shake hard enough to make something heavy (like an entire house) fall on them?

[jneale]

Yet another example of the crumbling of our so-called civilization. Moronic. :mad:

Or that the herd needs another round of culling...

[BigSugar]

I'm trying to round up family members of the Pompei Eruption and get a nice class action going. I just settled the "Sinking of Atlantis" suit for a bushel of fish and a statue of myself on Mt. Olympus. Gotta strike while the iron is hot.

The Right Honorable B. Sugar, Esq.
Attorney at Law
Dewey, Cheatum and Howe, PLLC

[despondent]

I'm trying to round up family members of the Pompei Eruption and get a nice class action going. I just settled the "Sinking of Atlantis" suit for a bushel of fish and a statue of myself on Mt. Olympus. Gotta strike while the iron is hot.

The Right Honorable B. Sugar, Esq.
Attorney at Law
Dewey, Cheatum and Howe, PLLC
Don't forget Krakatoa!

[Handy Smurf]

They arent blaming the govt for the deaths, they are assking for an apology because the govt said that these people died as a result of their own actions, they thay consciously ignored warnings to stay away, in effect, the govt said these people are responcible for their own deaths.

Did the governer say that? Yes.
Was it true? Yes.
Could he have not said it? Yes, they were dead, and using their deaths as an 'I told you so" was probably a bad idea.
Does the state need to apologize? No. But then, what would be the harm in saying "Hey, we were both wrong, they should have listened and we needed to make sure they were further away. We have learned from this tragedy and are working to make sure its never repeated." :confused:
I may be wrong, but I don't think its legally in their best interests to say anything that may be construed as an admission of even partial guilt.

[Handy Smurf]

If you beleive in God's hand in everything you can sue his ass. I don't think you have a chance to win a case, but you can try.
I don't know, Due. In HS religion class, we watched this movie called God on the Docks( :rolleyes: ) starring Richard Beymer (Tony from West Side Story) as Jesus. I don't remember what Jesus was on trial for, but I'm pretty sure he lost. This movie proved once and for all that a) you can sue God b) Jesus is a white Italian guy

[PeterABnny]

I'm trying to round up family members of the Pompei Eruption and get a nice class action going. I just settled the "Sinking of Atlantis" suit for a bushel of fish and a statue of myself on Mt. Olympus. Gotta strike while the iron is hot.

The Right Honorable B. Sugar, Esq.
Attorney at Law
Dewey, Cheatum and Howe, PLLC


Stop being silly, BS! For a REAL solid case, get the surviving families of the Titanic victims together. Talk about a titanic-sized class action!

[Fograsher]

unless I am reading incorrectly, the people are only asking for the government to retract a statement that implies the people where stupid for being there. They seem to understand that it was a natural disaster that went far beyond predicted expectations and nobody can be blamed for that. These families are saying that these relatives were well within areas considered relatively "safe" when they were killed. It may not be the brightest thing in the world to be anywhere near a volcano when it erupts, but they were not in the area designated "keep out" when the eruption occured.

Were people that lived outside the actual blast/devastation range stupid for not evacuating? The explosion could just as randomly been that much bigger too for all they were able to predict at the time. what if it hit a nearby city?There was just no good way to truly comprehend the esplosion that would happen. Extremely few people really believed Mt St Helens would make the spectacular explosion it did. And even they couldn't account for all the effects it had. The scale of destruction was essentially random.

Sure it looks pretty obvious right now, just like it looks really obvious that we all should have seen the Nasdaq plummet a few years ago. It's really easy for me to call "moron," but I wasn't there. I wasn't there to see the reasoning of people thinking it would be ok to be in the park away from the marked off danger zone. As soon as that eruption happenned "maybe" was replaced by fact and we are judging these people on a fact we are taking for granted that nobody really knew/understood at the time.

You all could be right. This could be a step in creating a valid lawsuit, but maybe it's just a bunch of families asking for some respect for the dead.

[Duemellon]

This could be a step in creating a valid lawsuit, but maybe it's just a bunch of families asking for some respect for the dead.I'm sorry, in England I think they'd've been tagged by the coroner as death by misadventure.

It was a supremely bad call to even risk it. Only 57 people died in a place where thousands lived? I think that's a good indicator that the populace-at-large understood:

Volcanos can go boom big.

[markalot]

It may not be the brightest thing in the world to be anywhere near a volcano when it erupts, but they were not in the area designated "keep out" when the eruption occured.

Good understatement.


The problem with apologies its it implies ownership of a mistake. ie Our government should have know what areas were safe.

[Fograsher]

Like the Seibolds, most of the volcano's 57 victims were caught in the avalanche of boiling mud and ash in sections of the mountain considered safe for camping and recreation.

Twenty-five years after the fatal eruption, victims' families want to stress that their loved ones did not die because of their own recklessness.


On television the day after the eruption, then-Gov. Dixie Lee Ray said most of the victims had ignored official warnings and deliberately went into harm's way. President Carter echoed that comment, saying: "One of the reasons for the loss of life that has occurred is that tourists and other interested people, curious people, refused to comply with the directives issued by the governor."

On Monday, victims' families asked for an apology from Gov. Christine Gregoire on behalf of the late Gov. Ray.

Of the 57 who died on the mountain, only three are known to have been killed within the "red zone," the area cordoned off by officials before the eruption. Another three — all miners carrying permits — died in the adjacent "blue zone," an area closed to the general public but open to permit-carrying workers.

Washington state officials argued that the blast was unprecedented and that there was no way for them to have foreseen the scale of the disaster

The possibility of a far larger eruption had been discussed, but it stayed among scientists, said Richard Waitt, a geologist at the USGS's Cascades Volcano Observatory in Vancouver.

Duemellon-

that is the edited version with the central points of the article, which is so convoluted that the point is hidden.

Assuming everything in the article is true, then

FACT: only 3 people were in the red zone, 3 people were in the permit only zone, and 51 people were in area called "safe" by the state.

FACT: the governor at the time with a statement from the president corroborating the governor's words said that most people died because they did not heed the governors keep out warning.

FACT: only a few people even considered the eruption would be on the scale it was and it was not discussed publically

These families want it known that they were listening to the governments warning of what was safe. It wasn't considered likely that the volcano would blow up the way it did and that possibility was NOT discussed publically or even with the government (apparently). Why wouldn't they have trusted what they were told? How can they be reckless for making decisions they thought they understood with the facts they had in front of them?

I think anyone living relatively near the San Andreas fault has some comprehension that they do so at their own risk. it's an established known risk. But what if the San Andreas fault caused an earthquake on such a scale decimated most of Arizona? unexpected? Yeah. Right now. Then science comes up with a plausible explanation for the phenomenon and 20 years later people shake their heads and say tsk, tsk, they should have known better.

and I agree with Markalot's last statement. The state cannot issue an apology because of implied liability. These people contirbuted to making such an apology impossible with the lawsuit they tried to win after the disaster

[Duemellon]

FACT: only a few people even considered the eruption would be on the scale it was and it was not discussed publicallyI'm one of those people who,... if I lived in the Westernmost part of SC when a hurricane comes, I evacuate.

Sorry, volcanos go "boom" big. That's what they do.

Declared a safe zone but only that many people decided to "check it out". Look, this issue of logic isn't really worthy of a debate to me. I see how one could make the argument that the govnt said "Ok", but I also see the basic logic of: Volcanos go boom.

[BigSugar]

Really. does anyone care anymore what happened to a bunch of dumbasses who got too close to the erupting volcano 25 years ago? i'm pretty sure the govt. didn't say "danger zone is demarked by this line and you'll be perfectly fine if you dont' go past it." after all, big boomy things don't generally stop at lines on maps and just chill out......well, except in bugs bunny cartoons.

[Fograsher]

Does it really matter 25 years later? Not to me. It does to the relatives of those who died. It may have mattered to the former governor. Now that that person is dead, maybe that's why this is resurfacing as an issue. Their relatives are accused of reckless behavior because they disobeyed government warnings. According to the article, that didn't happen. That is what they are upset about.

Would I ever vacation near an active volcano? I've always wanted to see the coral reefs in Hawaii.

[Duemellon]

Would I ever vacation near an active volcano? I've always wanted to see the coral reefs in Hawaii.There's a difference between a steadily venting one & a new eruption.

[Homsar]

"My mother would never ever, ever, ever, ever have killed her own daughter," said Roxann Edwards, of Scio, Ore., who was 18 when her mother and sister set off for a day trip to the mountain.

Wow, I don't think I've heard much dumber than that.
If she was sane, OF COURSE she wouldn't want to kill her own daugter!
Or are people doubting?
And who sets out for a day trip to an ACTIVE VOLCANO ABOUT TO ERUPT???

[markalot]

http://pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/step/

[BigSugar]

http://pasadena.wr.usgs.gov/step/

and my sweet Arizona desert property becomes "beachfront" in the blink of an eye!! my plan is almost complete!! muahahahahahahahahha!!!!

<cough> uhh.....i mean, that's terrible.

[miami2112]

i think it'd be cool to witness an eruption, but from very far away. or maybe i should just wait for the tv coverage.

people refuse to accept that nature is unpredictable and get upset when humans, by stupidity or niavety, get hurt. let this go victim's families.