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Sofa King
12 May 2005, 11:31 AM
Interesting...

Bush asked to explain UK war memo (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/britain.war.memo/)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Eighty-nine Democratic members of the U.S. Congress last week sent President George W. Bush a letter asking for explanation of a secret British memo that said "intelligence and facts were being fixed" to support the Iraq war in mid-2002.

The timing of the memo was well before the president brought the issue to Congress for approval.

The Times of London newspaper published the memo -- actually minutes of a high-level meeting on Iraq held July 23, 2002 -- on May 1.

British officials did not dispute the document's authenticity, and Michael Boyce, then Britain's Chief of Defense Staff, told the paper that Britain had not then made a decision to follow the United States to war, but it would have been "irresponsible" not to prepare for the possibility.

The White House has not yet responded to queries about the congressional letter, which was released on May 6.

The letter, initiated by Rep. John Conyers, ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee, said the memo "raises troubling new questions regarding the legal justifications for the war as well as the integrity of your own administration..."

"While various individuals have asserted this to be the case before, including Paul O'Neill, former U.S. Treasury Secretary, and Richard Clarke, a former National Security Council official, they have been previously dismissed by your administration," the letter said.

But, the letter said, when the document was leaked Prime Minister Tony Blair's spokesman called it "nothing new."

In addition to Blair, Foreign Secretary Jack Straw, Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon, Attorney General Peter Goldsmith, MI6 chief Richard Dearlove and others attended the meeting.

A British official identified as "C" said that he had returned from a meeting in Washington and that "military action was now seen as inevitable" by U.S. officials.

"Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.

"The NSC had no patience with the U.N. route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action."

The memo further discussed the military options under consideration by the United States, along with Britain's possible role.

It quoted Hoon as saying the United States had not finalized a timeline, but that it would likely begin "30 days before the U.S. congressional elections," culminating with the actual attack in January 2003.

"It seemed clear that Bush had made up his mind to take military action, even if the timing was not yet decided," the memo said.

"But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbors, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran."

The British officials determined to push for an ultimatum for Saddam to allow U.N. weapons inspectors back into Iraq to "help with the legal justification for the use of force ... despite U.S. resistance."

Britain's attorney general, Peter Goldsmith, advised the group that "the desire for regime change was not a legal base for military action" and two of three possible legal bases -- self-defense and humanitarian intervention -- could not be used.

The third was a U.N. Security Council resolution, which Goldsmith said "would be difficult."

Blair thought that "it would make a big difference politically and legally if Saddam refused to allow in the U.N. inspectors."

"If the political context were right, people would support regime change," the memo said.

Later, the memo said, Blair would work to convince Bush that they should pursue the ultimatum with Saddam even though "many in the U.S. did not think it worth going down the ultimatum route."

Homsar
12 May 2005, 11:46 AM
Well, well, who did the fixing and why?





*cough* greed *cough*

5-4=UNITY
12 May 2005, 11:47 AM
Scandalous- and yet not surprising.

Orville Wrong
12 May 2005, 11:48 AM
This is dumb on its face, but it begs questions about democratic strategy. Perhaps they're trying to push his chances of re-election to less than zero?

Shlep
12 May 2005, 12:40 PM
This is dumb on its face, but it begs questions about democratic strategy. Perhaps they're trying to push his chances of re-election to less than zero?

Considering that barring a Constitutional amendment, Bush's current chances of reelection are less than zero, I doubt that's the case.

Sovrana
12 May 2005, 12:56 PM
Is this going to have any impact on the Bolton nomination or are our politicians unable to walk and chew gum at the same time?

Spoon4613
12 May 2005, 01:00 PM
Ideally, I'd like to say so, but seriously doubt it. Those that seem to support the president, do so unquestionably.... at least, so it seems.

Leach
12 May 2005, 01:01 PM
Considering that barring a Constitutional amendment, Bush's current chances of reelection are less than zero, I doubt that's the case.

Not when bush passes the law that he is Dictator and completely changes the constitution. He's already proven he is the anti-christ.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/158_bush.jpg

rocketman70
12 May 2005, 01:15 PM
I'd like to say that I'm shocked, but I'm not.

classicgrrl
12 May 2005, 01:17 PM
Considering that barring a Constitutional amendment, Bush's current chances of reelection are less than zero, I doubt that's the case.


If Bush could run for another term, he would win in a heartbeat.

Orville Wrong
12 May 2005, 01:17 PM
Is this going to have any impact on the Bolton nomination or are our politicians unable to walk and chew gum at the same time?
Bolton leaves committee today, and should pass floor vote early next week.

Docta
12 May 2005, 01:39 PM
Bolton leaves committee today, and should pass floor vote early next week.

ya but our ohio boy (and OU grad) voinvich refused to vote for him meaning he goes to the floor without a committee endorsement, could be interesting!

locofly
12 May 2005, 01:58 PM
ya but our ohio boy (and OU grad) voinvich refused to vote for him meaning he goes to the floor without a committee endorsement, could be interesting!

any idea how our other boy, dewine feels about bolton? i'm damn proud that one of our senators will stand up against someone who seems to be horrible for the job...

Orville Wrong
12 May 2005, 02:05 PM
any idea how our other boy, dewine feels about bolton? i'm damn proud that one of our senators will stand up against someone who seems to be horrible for the job...
DeWine's not on the FRC, but he's much less of a maverick than Voinovich. This is probably to do with George's executive pedigreee as governor of a large state and mayor of a large city, versus Mike, who's always been a legislator.

Against Bolton would need to be six Republicans. I think Voinovich, Hagel and Chafee are the only likely defectors. Not enough.

Congratulations, Ambassador John Bolton. Give 'em hell.

Docta
12 May 2005, 06:12 PM
any idea how our other boy, dewine feels about bolton? i'm damn proud that one of our senators will stand up against someone who seems to be horrible for the job...

i don't know but listen to this weasel position he has on the nuclear option. he has said that he has made up his mind but is not making it public at this time.

bjk15
12 May 2005, 06:23 PM
DeWine's not on the FRC, but he's much less of a maverick than Voinovich. This is probably to do with George's executive pedigreee as governor of a large state and mayor of a large city, versus Mike, who's always been a legislator.

Against Bolton would need to be six Republicans. I think Voinovich, Hagel and Chafee are the only likely defectors. Not enough.

Congratulations, Ambassador John Bolton. Give 'em hell.
anyone who doesn't think that the 'pubs don't control the media in regards to politics is mentally challenged. the negative news was all focused on his managerial styles which obviously in and of itself isn't enough to say no. but fer fucks sake, cuba as a legitimate bio threat is. the fact that he is a black baller and makes up shit like jayson blair is so fucking pathetic, but hey, what do i know, maybe this is what the UN needs.

markalot
12 May 2005, 06:50 PM
anyone who doesn't think that the 'pubs don't control the media in regards to politics is mentally challenged. the negative news was all focused on his managerial styles which obviously in and of itself isn't enough to say no. but fer fucks sake, cuba as a legitimate bio threat is. the fact that he is a black baller and makes up shit like jayson blair is so fucking pathetic, but hey, what do i know, maybe this is what the UN needs.

Ok, this is stupendously shortsighted and stupid. Why is this? Because the media isn't saying what YOU want them to say. How pompous can you get? And of course the left, the progressives, are correct. I'm sorry, but anyone who can't see the silliness of your position is the one working on a half deck. So let's see.

The media starts going anti-republican and therefor the media is liberal. Wait, the media starts houding Clinton, must be a vast right wing conspiracy. What does the left say? The media is out to get Clinton. Etc. Etc. Etc.

If anything the constant complaining about the media tells me that they are pretty much down the middle.

locofly
12 May 2005, 06:59 PM
i don't know but listen to this weasel position he has on the nuclear option. he has said that he has made up his mind but is not making it public at this time.

I never realized how SHORT he was until I ran into him here in Cbus this past fall.... and ya know... probly looks more like a weasel than any other senator..

http://www.theconnection.org/content/2004/03/26/fetus173.jpg
http://dnr.state.il.us/orc/Wildlife/virtual_news/images/long_tailed_weasel/thumbnails/lt_weasel_frontal.jpg

maybe?...

Orville Wrong
12 May 2005, 07:02 PM
anyone who doesn't think that the 'pubs don't control the media in regards to politics is mentally challenged.
...says the man who just presented a sentence (I use the term advisedly) that actually means the opposite of what he intended.

the negative news was all focused on his managerial styles which obviously in and of itself isn't enough to say no. but fer fucks sake, cuba as a legitimate bio threat is.
There's intelligence both ways on the Cuba bioweapons question (which Bolton pointed out when he first broached this in 2002). I'd rather have someone mention it before they're bulldozing Anthrax victims into pits on South Beach and Key West.

but the fact that he is a black baller and makes up shit like jayson blair is so fucking pathetic, but hey, what do i know, maybe this is what the UN needs.
We'll see, because the appointment's going through.

bjk15
12 May 2005, 07:47 PM
There's intelligence both ways on the Cuba bioweapons question (which Bolton pointed out when he first broached this in 2002). I'd rather have someone mention it before they're bulldozing Anthrax victims into pits on South Beach and Key West.
you see, while i don't have a problem with us keeping tabs on everyone, but honestly nations like cuba wouldn't attack the us. b/c it would be over before it started.

nations like n. korea put their nuke sites on bordering nations (china) that the us doesn't want to involve in a dispute and so we would have webs to cut through to get to them. but cuba, shiiiit, that ain't no thing man. short range, yes they are a threat, but really we should be more worried about who is going in and out of there b/c that would be a better indicator of what may happen. so if he was talking about policing cuba better (re: not embargos), then i'd say ok, but he's not. he just wants to have an excuse to take out castro, which is sad.

which goes back to the media's point... oh my, they may actually have something, if someone who behaves like an ianalex, then is he (are they) really going to be able to affect the view of his "colleagues". i don't think so.

btw, mal, seriously. i said the media was focusing on the stupid "negative" managerial point. of which is all you hear dem fans talking about. they are too stupid to realize that they aren't even focusing on what really matters. its not a left, right matter to me at all and its not a "my view" thing so much as it is the fact that bolton can't nor will he reform the un.

twentyshots
12 May 2005, 09:08 PM
How does this Downing street memo keep getting brushed aside? Once the mainstream media gets a hold of it I think it has the potential to be real trouble. It is coming from our strongest ally after all.

Orville Wrong
12 May 2005, 10:51 PM
How does this Downing street memo keep getting brushed aside? Once the mainstream media gets a hold of it I think it has the potential to be real trouble. It is coming from our strongest ally after all.
I haven't noticed any brushing aside. You've heard about it and I've heard about it. Quick calculation reveals that half of us don't care. It's a small sample but I think it's an accurate barometer for public opinion on anything to do with WMDs and pre-war intelligence. It's 2005 now, and the swing voters already swung.