Vote Bush or Repent!

[candy4140]

This just makes me giggle for some reason.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/07/church.politics.ap/

[rocketman70]

Actually, it makes me sick. This is one of the reasons I've given up on organized religion for good.

[Patas]

Actually, it makes me sick. This is one of the reasons I've given up on organized religion for good.
I'm right with you on this one. Its better just to have your own faith.

[rocketman70]

I'm right with you on this one. Its better just to have your own faith.


Exactly!! :D

[mrs. poggs]

Wake Up People!

My right-wing, NRA-card carrying, holy-roller sister-in-law actually called her mom crying before the election and begged her mom not to vote for Kerry. :confused:

[chuxxter]

This just makes me giggle for some reason.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/07/church.politics.ap/
This should make you shudder, not giggle. The Christian Right Fundamentalist Assholes in this country count on people not taking this shit seriously. Once again the Moral Minority makes the Christian Majority look bad. The separation of Church and State just does not exist anymore. But we can't allow Religious extremists to run the country in Iraq, therefore we invade and kick them out. FUCKING HYPOCRITES in this administration!!! :mad: :mad:

[candy4140]

This should make you shudder, not giggle. The Christian Right Fundamentalist Assholes in this country count on people not taking this shit seriously. Once again the Moral Minority makes the Christian Majority look bad. The separation of Church and State just does not exist anymore. But we can't allow Religious extremists to run the country in Iraq, therefore we invade and kick them out. FUCKING HYPOCRITES in this administration!!! :mad: :mad:

Unfortunately, I have tired head from all the ridiculous things the religious right has been doing lately (you can catch a new one every night on ABC News). And nobody stands up and says anything because god forbid, we insult someone who is religious! That's the worst thing you can do in this country...so this article is sort of funny to me because it's only affecting the religious people this time. I mean if this isn't a big clue to all the church members that the crazy religious are running the country, I don't what is.

The way the Kerry supporters at this church felt when he told them to leave, well, that's pretty much how I've been feeling for the past 5 years.

Of course, since the pastor said god told him this and is speaking through him, let's not question that.

[keyst2891]

The separation of Church and State just does not exist anymore. But we can't allow Religious extremists to run the country in Iraq, therefore we invade and kick them out. FUCKING HYPOCRITES in this administration!!! :mad: :mad:

I fail to see how this article has anything to do with Iraq or this administration's hypocricy. Did I miss something here? I just thought this was about some misguided idiot who thinks that political views somehow make you holy. To me, it is the people of this North Carolina community making this decision, not the administration.

Just seems to me that this statement belongs in another thread.

I'd like to see what people actually think of a freaking church telling people to have a political view. God is probly not Republican, just a guess.

[candy4140]

I fail to see how this article has anything to do with Iraq or this administration's hypocricy. Did I miss something here? I just thought this was about some misguided idiot who thinks that political views somehow make you holy. To me, it is the people of this North Carolina community making this decision, not the administration.

Just seems to me that this statement belongs in another thread.

I'd like to see what people actually think of a freaking church telling people to have a political view. God is probly not Republican, just a guess.

I think they are trying to say that with the tax exempt status of the Church, supporting a candidate violates some line in the sand. Anyhoo, he might lose a job over it, so cool.

[chuxxter]

I fail to see how this article has anything to do with Iraq or this administration's hypocricy. Did I miss something here? I just thought this was about some misguided idiot who thinks that political views somehow make you holy. To me, it is the people of this North Carolina community making this decision, not the administration.

Just seems to me that this statement belongs in another thread.

I'd like to see what people actually think of a freaking church telling people to have a political view. God is probly not Republican, just a guess.
I cannot believe that you cannot make the connection between Right Wing Fundamentalists and this Administration. Remember Schiavo? This is just what they want. 'Oh this has nothing to do with Bush?" These are the very assholes who got him elected!! They are following this administrations lead in blurring the lines between Church and State. WAKE THE FUCK UP PEOPLE!!!!

[Orville Wrong]

The separation of Church and State just does not exist anymore.
To the extent it has ever existed (the pertinent Constitutional bit is called the "Establishment Clause," with nary a word about "separation."), it's more pronounced now than ever in history. Your implied solution, and that of the expelled parishioners' lawyers, seems to be some form of legally imposed membership criteria for churches. How that serves separation is lost on me, but it beats making nine Baptists choose between one of the 700 other revival tents and brimstone quarries fighting over the souls of Waynesville, NC. Worse yet, they may stop being Baptists entirely. Sure hope not.

But we can't allow Religious extremists to run the country in Iraq, therefore we invade and kick them out. FUCKING HYPOCRITES in this administration!!! :mad: :mad:
Hypocrites who can at least differentiate between Iraq and Afghanistan. Brown people, turbans, sand... It's so darn confusing! Well worth the effort though before engaging the caps lock and doubling up on the frownies.

[Orville Wrong]

Remember Schiavo?
Yes; she's dead. Not, as I recall, the optimal outcome for the religious right.

This is just what they want.
What is?

'Oh this has nothing to do with Bush?" These are the very assholes who got him elected!! They are following this administrations lead in blurring the lines between Church and State. WAKE THE FUCK UP PEOPLE!!!!
You don't know what you're talking about. Enough with the caps lock, it's annoying.

[postfeminist]

Wake Up People!

My right-wing, NRA-card carrying, holy-roller sister-in-law actually called her mom crying before the election and begged her mom not to vote for Kerry. :confused:

that's funny--because i'm a left wing, pinko commie Jew who actually called her parents before the election and begged them not to vote for Bush.

[Nellie Bly]

Wake Up People!

My right-wing, NRA-card carrying, holy-roller sister-in-law actually called her mom crying before the election and begged her mom not to vote for Kerry. :confused:

And they have this minister on tape saying that GW is the only "true christian" and he tells people if they vote for Kerry they should resign.

I suppose it shouldn't surprise me anymore, yet it still does. Or maybe I've just been lucky to have had ministers who accepted their congregation as a whole entity and didn't discriminate based on their political views.

[chuxxter]

my points are simple: Schiavo as an attempt by the current administration to interfere with the law on Religious grounds i.e. "sanctity of life". What these people want is to legislate your morality and remove personal choice in matters spiritual. And the longer you keep your head buried in the sand and act as if nothing unseemly is going on, tha better chance the Administration has of passing legislation that will directly abuse your civil rights. Does the Homeland Security Act ring any bells with you? Denial of civil rights to anyone the Government deems a 'threat' to homeland security? And don't quibble with me over Iraq and/or Afghanistan. If you remove the total bullshit over WMD's, the invasions were almost identical. Two religious (isn't Saddam Hussein a Muslim?) extremist countries, which the Administration deemed a threat to our way of life. And yet we wrap ourselves in the American flag and the Bible and pretend that we are not religious extremists in our own right. These are the hypocrites I'm talking about. I for one never felt the least bit threatened by either Afghanistan and/or Iraq. So both invasions were bullshit, IN MY OPINION. okay?

[mrs. poggs]

that's funny--because i'm a left wing, pinko commie Jew who actually called her parents before the election and begged them not to vote for Bush.

But did you cry? :D

This cuckoo crazy 50/50 country of ours . . .

[joebob]

(isn't Saddam Hussein a Muslim?)

No.
You lash at people for not being aware or active enough, and there you stand personifying the ignorant protester.

[chuxxter]

No.
You lash at people for not being aware or active enough, and there you stand personifying the ignorant protester.
Please enlighten me,then. I am always willing to admit my mistakes. And my false assumptions that the leader of a Muslim country would, in fact, be a Muslim.

[joebob]

Please enlighten me,then. I am always willing to admit my mistakes. And my false assumptions that the leader of a Muslim country would, in fact, be a Muslim.

All due respect, but that's not really my job. If you intend to spread the voice of dissent and rally people to a cause, the responsibility you take on is to not mislead them. It is your job to get your facts straight before you represent them as facts.

While Iraq is 97% Muslim, Saddam's reign was (while horribly dictatorial) purely secular. Only now are religious factions rising to political power through the different parties.

[purple_octopus]

Please enlighten me,then. I am always willing to admit my mistakes. And my false assumptions that the leader of a Muslim country would, in fact, be a Muslim.

Actually, Iraq under Hussein was quite secular. Which is (just) one reason many of his neighboring countries didn't much care for him. More info here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein), if you're interested.

Saddam Hussein as a secular leader

Saddam saw himself as a social revolutionary and a modernizer, following the model of Nasser. To the consternation of Islamic conservatives, his government gave women added freedoms and offered them high-level government and industry jobs. Saddam also created a Western-style legal system, making Iraq the only country in the Persian Gulf region not ruled according to traditional Islamic law (Sharia). Saddam abolished the Sharia law courts, except for personal injury claims.

Domestic conflict impeded Saddam's modernizing projects. Iraqi society is divided along lines of language, religion and ethnicity; Saddam's government rested on the support of the 20 percent minority of largely working-class, peasant, and petite bourgeoisie Sunni Muslims, continuing a pattern that dates back at least to the British mandate authority's reliance on them as administrators.

The Shi'a majority were long a source of opposition to the government due to its secular policies, and the Ba'ath Party was increasingly concerned about potential Sh'ia Islamist influence following the Iranian Revolution of 1979. The Kurds of northern Iraq (who are Sunni Muslims but not Arabs) were also permanently hostile to the Ba'athist party's Arabizing tendencies. To maintain his regime against sources of opposition, the core of Saddam's government was made up of a retinue of close relatives and members of his Tikriti tribe.

In dealing with Shiites, Kurds, Communists, and other likely regime opponents, the government tended either to provide them with benefits so as to co-opt them into the regime, or to take repressive measures against them. The major instruments for accomplishing this control were the paramilitary and police organizations. Beginning in 1974, Taha Yassin Ramadan, a close associate of Saddam, commanded the People's Army, which was responsible for internal security. As the Ba'ath Party's paramilitary, the People's Army acted as a counterweight against any coup attempts by the regular armed forces. In addition to the People's Army, the Department of General Intelligence (Mukhabarat) was the most notorious arm of the state security system, feared for its use of torture and assassination. Commanded by Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti, Saddam's younger half-brother since 1982, foreign observers believed that this department operated both at home and abroad in their mission to seek out and eliminate opponents of Saddam Hussein. [3] (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query)

Saddam justified Iraqi patriotism by claiming a unique role of Iraq in the history of the Arab world. As president, Saddam made frequent references to the Abbasid period, when Baghdad was the political, cultural, and economic capital of the Arab world. He also promoted Iraq's pre-Islamic role as the ancient cradle of civilization Mesopotamia, alluding to such historical figures as Nebuchadnezzar and Hammurabi. He devoted resources to archaeological explorations. In effect, Saddam sought to combine pan-Arabism and Iraqi nationalism, by promoting the vision of an Arab world united and led by Iraq.

As a sign of his consolidation of power, Saddam's personality cult pervaded Iraqi society. Thousands of portraits, posters, statues and murals were erected in his honor all over Iraq. His face could be seen on the sides of office buildings, schools, airports, and shops, as well as on Iraqi currency. Saddam's personality cult reflected his efforts to appeal to the various elements in Iraqi society. He appeared in the costumes of the Bedouin, the traditional clothes of the Iraqi peasant (which he essentially was during his childhood), and even Kurdish clothing, but also appeared in Western suits, projecting the image of an urbane and modern leader. Sometimes he would be portrayed as a devout Muslim, wearing full headdress and robe, praying toward Mecca; at other times, he would be shown wearing a Western business suit and sunglasses, brandishing a rifle over his head.

[Shlep]

And don't quibble with me over Iraq and/or Afghanistan. If you remove the total bullshit over WMD's, the invasions were almost identical. Two religious (isn't Saddam Hussein a Muslim?) extremist countries, which the Administration deemed a threat to our way of life.

As has already been pointed out, Iraq under Hussein was decidedly secular-- women going to college and not wearing veils, liquor stores in Christian neighborhoods, and the like. Husseing himself was not at all religious, and only periodically wrapped himself up in Muslim imagery as an appeal to Muslims in and out of his own country.

Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq were invaded because they were run by religious extremists, chuxxter. Saddam wasn't, and Afghanistan was though the simple fact that the Taliban were Muslim fundie zealots wasn't the casus belli there; it was the fact that they were providing a safe haven and training grounds for terorrists and giving Osama bin Laden a play to hang out. They were afforded the opportunity to hand him over after he claimed responsibility for 9/11, the Taliban told Bush where to go, and they got invaded.

I for one never felt the least bit threatened by either Afghanistan and/or Iraq.

Me neither. It was the assholes they were helping I was worried about.

[Orville Wrong]

my points are simple: Schiavo as an attempt by the current administration to interfere with the law on Religious grounds i.e. "sanctity of life". What these people want is to legislate your morality and remove personal choice in matters spiritual. And the longer you keep your head buried in the sand and act as if nothing unseemly is going on, tha better chance the Administration has of passing legislation that will directly abuse your civil rights. Does the Homeland Security Act ring any bells with you? Denial of civil rights to anyone the Government deems a 'threat' to homeland security? And don't quibble with me over Iraq and/or Afghanistan. If you remove the total bullshit over WMD's, the invasions were almost identical. Two religious (isn't Saddam Hussein a Muslim?) extremist countries, which the Administration deemed a threat to our way of life. And yet we wrap ourselves in the American flag and the Bible and pretend that we are not religious extremists in our own right. These are the hypocrites I'm talking about. I for one never felt the least bit threatened by either Afghanistan and/or Iraq. So both invasions were bullshit, IN MY OPINION. okay?
If you actually have Down Syndrome: I'm proud of you. Keep typing little guy! If you don't, well shame on you. Stop acting like you have Down Syndrome.

[chuxxter]

I thank shlep and po for setting me straight on Hussein. However, Orville, try not to resort to immature and stupid name calling just because you don't agree with me. I try to respect others views (maybe unsucessfully some of the time) but i would hope to get the same from others as well.

[postfeminist]

yes, i cried.

orville, you're more full of piss & vinegar than usual. do you need a hug? *bats eyelashes* :D

[Homsar]

Is it part of the Baptist faith that they can vote people out?
If I was one of those people and I somehow still had some faith in those Baptists, I'd be inclined to say "Fuck you, I'm practicing my religion."
They should go stright to the Baptist top with this one.
Then they'd find out if they should change religions.

[Homsar]

Yep, stright to the top they should go.

That should straighten things out.

Should.

Unitl the Prez involves himself.

[monkey neck]

Wake Up People!

My right-wing, NRA-card carrying, holy-roller sister-in-law actually called her mom crying before the election and begged her mom not to vote for Kerry. :confused:

My wife's cousin who is a left-wing, tree hugging, liberal (insert other terms here) actually called her mom crying after the election. :confused:

Anyway, every time some crazy congregation does something, it gives the religion a bad name. Don't think Christians are all like that.

[mrs. poggs]

Pastor accused of running out Dems quits
5/11/2005, 7:52 a.m. ET
By TIM WHITMIRE
The Associated Press

WAYNESVILLE, N.C. (AP) — A Baptist pastor accused of threatening to banish from his church anyone who didn't vote for President Bush has himself chosen to depart, leaving in his wake a divided community and a cultural chasm.

The Rev. Chan Chandler, 33, walked out of the church he had led for three years Tuesday night after delivering a brief statement of resignation. With him went many of the young congregants he had attracted to the modest brick church on the outskirts of this small mountain town in western North Carolina.

In leaving, Chandler did not apologize for the controversy that made him a national lightning rod — the claims by some church members that they were told to leave if they voted for Democratic nominee John Kerry.

"For me to remain now would only cause more hurt for me and my family," Chandler said. "I am resigning with gratitude in my heart for all of you, particularly those of you who love me and my family."

The dispute that engulfed East Waynesville Baptist Church in recent months would have sounded familiar to many an American congregation: Aging congregation brings in dynamic young preacher to turn things around. New pastor attracts young members who push for change in traditional ways of doing things. Battle ensues.

As Chandler and his wife drove out of the church's parking lot followed by a police escort, about 40 of his supporters walked out as well, with many saying they were resigning their memberships.

"I'm not going to serve with the ungodly," an angry Misty Turner declared.

But Maxine Osborne, 70, and among those who stayed behind, had a different view of what had transpired.

"A lot of these young people had not been in the church more than a year," she said. The Chandlers "brought in a lot of young people, but they also brainwashed them."

Members said the troubles had been simmering since last fall, when Chandler endorsed Bush and denounced Kerry from the pulpit — saying those who planned to vote for the Democrat should "repent or resign."

Tensions escalated last week, when several members said Chandler called a meeting of the church's board of deacons and declared his intention for East Waynesville to become a politically active church.

Anyone who did not like that direction was free to leave, Chandler said — a statement that caused nine members to walk out.

Many of those who opposed Chandler's leadership said they agreed with the pastor's positions on abortion and other hot-button religious topics, but disliked linking those beliefs to specific political positions and candidates.

"If we wanted politics, we would stay home and watch it 24 hours a day on TV," said Charles Gaddy, 70. "I like Chan. He can preach a good sermon. I just wish he would keep some things out of the church."

Frank Lowe, 73, a leader of the members who left the church in opposition to Chandler's leadership, said, "I think his duty was to preach God's word and let the people sort out what they want to do."

Chandler supporter Rhonda Trantham, 27, saw no problem with Chandler's approach. "If it's in the Bible, I believe it should be preached," she said.

Norman Jameson of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina said the convention — which generally allows its congregations free rein to conduct their business — will try to help Chandler find a new church position if he so desires.

"There was evidently a politicization of pulpit in that the pastor is passionate and he interprets that one political party had a stronger stance on abortion than the other," Jameson said. "Passion makes things happen. In a church leadership role, it can also divide people."

Speaking to those who remained after Chandler's departure, Lowe acknowledged the pain on both sides of the schism. "This is a sad hour in this group's life. This is a sad hour in the other group's life," he said.

But he was firm in his opposition to Chandler.

"A person that will take abuse and not stand up for what's right is not worth their salt," he declared.

Out in the parking lot, as she got into her truck, Trantham was equally adamant.

"God will always fix things in the end," she said.

•__

On the Net:

Baptist State Convention of North Carolina: http://www.bscnc.org

[tobedawg]

Oh great.. Another thread about "Wonderful Christians".. (to call them anything else would be an insult :rolleyes: )

[purple_octopus]

Oh great.. Another thread about "Wonderful Christians".. (to call them anything else would be an insult :rolleyes: )

If one wants to lump all people of a certain category together based on the actions/words/beliefs of a minority - go ahead. Someone only wears their own ignorance on their sleeve by doing so.

[tobedawg]

If one wants to lump all people of a certain category together based on the actions/words/beliefs of a minority - go ahead. Someone only wears their own ignorance on their sleeve by doing so.

First of all, that's NOT what I was doing..

There is a difference between a Christian that believes in Jesus and Religious Principles (that person is a "True Christian") and A person who calls themselves a Christian AND uses it as a guise for their bigotry..

I called these people the "American T" because of their desire to force their agenda upon the country, but some were insulted by that term, SO........

[purple_octopus]

First of all, that's NOT what I was doing..

There is a difference between a Christian that believes in Jesus and Religious Principles (that person is a "True Christian") and A person who calls themselves a Christian AND uses it as a guise for their bigotry..

I called these people the "American T" because of their desire to force their agenda upon the country, but some were insulted by that term, SO........

Oh, I was referring to something else, not necessarily anything you said. I thought your post was in reference to something else entirely.

[bjk15]

bush has made a vast amount of christian churches into cults that might as well be the branch davidians, hell, most of them probably friggin are.

[Orville Wrong]

bush has made a vast amount of christian churches into cults that might as well be the branch davidians, hell, most of them probably friggin are.
Right on!!!!

[tobedawg]

bush has made a vast amount of christian churches into cults that might as well be the branch davidians, hell, most of them probably friggin are

I don't necessarily think that this is Bush's fault though.. It was Robertson, Fawlwell, etc.. This problem has existed long before Bush.. Bush was just the last piece of the puzzle..

[markalot]

I don't necessarily think that this is Bush's fault though.. It was Robertson, Fawlwell, etc.. This problem has existed long before Bush.. Bush was just the last piece of the puzzle..


Do I need to point out the irony of people using what the media tells them as examples of our current society?

And when we have dems in power suddenly all of these problems will vanish and the world will be good again because the media decides that some backwoods preacherman in Georgia who does something stupid is NOT news anymore.

[bjk15]

Do I need to point out the irony of people using what the media tells them as examples of our current society?

And when we have dems in power suddenly all of these problems will vanish and the world will be good again because the media decides that some backwoods preacherman in Georgia who does something stupid is NOT news anymore.
you could point it out, but thats not what i use as my examples. i use the church that i've been going to and i use some of my former churches' acquaintances. i'm not sure if you go to church, but its downright absurd the way many of these church folk are observant of gw's opinion.

[markalot]

you could point it out, but thats not what i use as my examples. i use the church that i've been going to and i use some of my former churches' acquaintances. i'm not sure if you go to church, but its downright absurd the way many of these church folk are observant of gw's opinion.

Sure, people will be absurd. I thought people that loved Bill Clinton were absurd. So what? People that like someone you hate will always appear to be absurd.

[aqualou]

i'm agnostic. i don't believe in george w. bush.

[Orville Wrong]

i'm agnostic. i don't believe in george w. bush.
I'm agnostic, and I voted for him.

[markalot]

I don't believe the existence of George W. Bush can be either proven or disproven.

[Orville Wrong]

I don't believe the existence of George W. Bush can be either proven or disproven.
Flipflopper!

[Homsar]

Oh, he's real. I just don't believe in at least some of his views.
Kinda like most other people.
Too bad I can't discuss things with him.

[PeterABnny]

I don't believe the existence of George W. Bush can be either proven or disproven.


He tries to think. Therefore, regrettably for our country, he is.

[twentyshots]

I am willing to bet that what HE believes in isn't us.

[PeterABnny]

I am willing to bet that what HE believes in isn't us.


He would if we had money and influence.