Kill 'em all

[bjk15]

so here is the thing: how does the death penalty actually "discourage" criminals?

i mean, does a criminal really think, "oh shit, i better put this cap in this guys ass and not his head cuz otherwise i may get put on death row." and since when did a criminal really think that they would be caught anyway. "well, hell, i'm probably gonna get caught with these csi's anyway, i better not off this sonuva."

and this is besides the point that if for whatever reason i did something worthy of 5 life prison sentences or death, hell, i'd choose death and get it over with. i just never got this.

*edit to add: and this isn't even to mention the ridiculous cost of the trials that gets lumped onto the states.

[DaHood]

I don't support the death penalty. I do consider myself somewhat conservative on some issues, somewhat liberal on others but this is one thing I can not support. I've gone through it in my mind many times and it wasn't easy for me to decide that I'm absolutely against it. I mean when you see some of the horrible things that some people do I think 'he doesn't deserve to live' yet I don't know what is accomplished by putting someone to death. The arguments for the death penalty are plenty, and on the surface often appear quite logical to me, but I have one big sticking point: Why is it that so many religious right people support the death penalty when they say that abortion is murder? I know, I know.... an unborn child is innocent blah blah blah... What I have a problem with from their arguments is that it has something to do with morality as dictated by God. Well then isn't it's God's responsibility to judge a murderer in the hereafter? What right do we as humans to take that into our own hands? Gawd... am I sounding like Due? :D Or is he going to come in and rip me up? Hell at least he thinks about this stuff... I can hardly get into words the things that go through my mind about death penalty and abortion, but none of it sits well with me... I just don't know what to think. Oh well too late here goes the 'Submit Reply' button.

[classicgrrl]

I don't support the death penalty. I do consider myself somewhat conservative on some issues, somewhat liberal on others but this is one thing I can not support. I've gone through it in my mind many times and it wasn't easy for me to decide that I'm absolutely against it. I mean when you see some of the horrible things that some people do I think 'he doesn't deserve to live' yet I don't know what is accomplished by putting someone to death. The arguments for the death penalty are plenty, and on the surface often appear quite logical to me, but I have one big sticking point: Why is it that so many religious right people support the death penalty when they say that abortion is murder? I know, I know.... an unborn child is innocent blah blah blah... What I have a problem with from their arguments is that it has something to do with morality as dictated by God. Well then isn't it's God's responsibility to judge a murderer in the hereafter? What right do we as humans to take that into our own hands? Gawd... am I sounding like Due? :D Or is he going to come in and rip me up? Hell at least he thinks about this stuff... I can hardly get into words the things that go through my mind about death penalty and abortion, but none of it sits well with me... I just don't know what to think. Oh well too late here goes the 'Submit Reply' button.

actually I think we need more room for ambiguity. on both abortion and the death penalty.

and like you, in my mind they are linked.

[DaHood]

actually I think we need more room for ambiguity. on both abortion and the death penalty.

and like you, in my mind they are linked.
Thank you! I swear I don't find a lot of people who will link the two the way I do. I think that if one is wrong then the other must be too, but it seems to me that liberals seem to think abortion- good, death penalty- bad, while conservatives think death penalty- good, abortion- bad. I really don't care for either, but while I am very against death penalty I don't know what to think about abortion. I reluctantly support choice. While I don't think abortion is ever a good thing, I realize there may be circumstances where a woman may need to make that choice. I still don't have to like it.

[Orville Wrong]

No death penalty at all, ever.

Abortion, I'm sitting out.

[classicgrrl]

Thank you! I swear I don't find a lot of people who will link the two the way I do. I think that if one is wrong then the other must be too, but it seems to me that liberals seem to think abortion- good, death penalty- bad, while conservatives think death penalty- good, abortion- bad. I really don't care for either, but while I am very against death penalty I don't know what to think about abortion. I reluctantly support choice. While I don't think abortion is ever a good thing, I realize there may be circumstances where a woman may need to make that choice. I still don't have to like it.

Abortion is just a case of never agreeing. We will never really know when life starts. Nor we will ever really be able to seperate the life of the fetus from the mother. Because of this I think abortion needs to be legal.

The death penalty I believe needs to go for three main reasons; one is that it doesn't work, two is it's expensive and three is with all the other crapola our government fucks up you really want to give them the go ahead to legally kill people? Giving the state the right to end a life gives me the jitters. Too much power for it for me to be comfortable (military is whole nother block of cheese).

But humans are hypocrital-can't be otherwise and these two issue prove it.

here's a goofy one: encouraging young women to masturbate will decrease abortions. discuss. :D

[DaHood]

Abortion is just a case of never agreeing. We will never really know when life starts.
That's why I have a hard time not supporting choice. Who is to say that abortion is murder? I still think it's never a good thing but that has to be up to the woman to decide if she can live with that choice.

Nor we will ever really be able to seperate the life of the fetus from the mother. Because of this I think abortion needs to be legal.
If the fetus is a human life, this point isn't valid and it is more than just the woman's life, it's the baby as well. But try to prove that the fetus is in fact a sentient life. You can't. Goes back to the woman's choice.

The death penalty I believe needs to go for three main reasons; one is that it doesn't work, two is it's expensive and three is with all the other crapola our government fucks up you really want to give them the go ahead to legally kill people?
Mistakes have happened in the past. A person not guilty of the crime they've been convicted of and excecuted can not be reversed. This is the biggest argument in my mind that says we can not have the death penalty period.

here's a goofy one: encouraging young women to masturbate will decrease abortions. discuss. :D
I ain't gonna touch it, no pun intended. :D

[classicgrrl]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050305/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

this is gonna help our PR
:rolleyes:

:(
I feel bad for the freed hostage and her rescuer.

[sleazosaurus]

im not saying i support the death penalty, but isnt the point of it mostly just because jails are overcrowded and its cheaper to kill criminals than to keep them contained for years?

[akip]

the death penalty is revenge, and therefore suspect. it's doled out arbitrarily. i've never seen any real evidence that the possibility of execution (as opposed long imprisonment) makes any murderer stop and reconsider---murderers seem to act on impulse or have their own weird rationale. execution is more expensive than imprisonment. innocent people have been executed on more than a few occasions. there is always potential for abuse based on racism, etc.

i've already expressed my opinions on abortion. should remain legal within reasonable limits (first trimester, only later if life of mother is threatened). my position is consistent with being anti-death penalty---the law should be based on logic. keep the sentimentality out of it. pro-life and pro-death penalty positions are both based on emotional reactions rather than a logical assessment. there is universal agreement that killing a thinking, feeling human being is wrong, but universal agreement soon breaks down when you enter the gray zone---war, religion, self-defense, birth control, etc.

[purple_octopus]

My feeling is that if just one innocent person is put to death, that is too many. For that reason, I do not think the death penalty as it stands is justifiable. I think we ought to revive the penal colony instead.

[dragonflier]

The death penalty is not a deterent to violent crime. Also, I think that those sentenced to death use it to escape decades of incarceration. For these reasons, we don't need a death penalty.

Since I have a Y chromosome, I feel like I don't have a right to say anything about abortion.

[Duemellon]

The expense of the death penalty really comes in when we consider all the stupid lil' things we feel compelled to include b/c we really really want to b sure we'r xecutin the right person.

If we were confident in our judicial systm, we'd try them, sentence them, take them out back & kill them that week.

I m for the death penalty, but I havn't figured out a suitabl crime for it yet. So, I feel that the reason why an individual should b put to death is if there is no opportunity for rehabilitation & their mere xistance threatens the lives of other individuals who hav to deal/w them.

Abortion?

The only way we will agree on when life starts is if one particular religious sect "wins" in the U.S. & begins doling out their morality into oppressiv law on all it's realm of influence.

If a God is in Heaven, plz don't let that happen.

[markalot]

I don't like the way the death penalty is implemented in this country, but I think it's acceptable to kill people who deserve it. Define deserve.

I am against abortion but pro individual rights so I'm stuck on the issue. I believe, however, that a woman who has an abortion knows what she's done after the fact and has to live with those memories for the rest of her life. That's a pretty steep punishment right there.

Anyone who deals with abortion has to deal with rape, danger to the life of the mother, etc. The government is not who I want deciding those issues.

[purple_octopus]

Abortion?

The only way we will agree on when life starts is if one particular religious sect "wins" in the U.S. & begins doling out their morality into oppressiv law on all it's realm of influence.

If a God is in Heaven, plz don't let that happen.
I'm really not in the mood to get into the abortion debate today. But I don't think abortion and religion have a whole lot to do with each other. Classicgrrl is 100% correct -- it all boils down to when life begins, which we do not know and cannot prove. It's a human rights issue, not a religion issue. Although religious conservatives and liberal democrats alike certainly try to make it one.

[postfeminist]

Copied from the campaign to end the death penalty (http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/), which i have been involved in for years...

1. The death penalty is racist.

The 1972 Furman V. Georgia case abolished the death penalty for four years on the grounds that capital punishment was rife with racial disparities. Over twenty five years later, those disparities are as glaring as ever.

# African Americans are 12% of the U.S. population, but are 43% of prisoners on death row. Although Blacks constitute 50% of all murder victims, 83% of the victims in death penalty cases are white.

# Since 1976 only ten executions involved a white defendant who had killed a Black victim.

# In all, only 37 of the over 18,000 executions in this country's history involved a white person being punished for killing a Black person.

# A comprehensive Georgia study found that killers of whites are 4.3 times more likely to receive a death sentence than killers of Blacks.

# More than 75% of those on federal death row are non-white. Of the 156 federal death penalty prosecutions approved by the Attorney General since 1988, 74% of the defendants were non-white.

The crime of being poor and Black

Girvies Davis spent 16 years on death row. He was sentenced to death in 1978, accused of being an accomplice in a robbery in which someone else shot and killed the victim. There was no physical evidence linking him to the crime. He was convicted purely on the basis of a signed "confession" -- a confession in which he also confessed to 9 other murders known to have been committed by others. He was illiterate at the time he supposedly penned the confession. Girvies said that police took him out for a ride and threatened to shoot him "while trying to escape" if he didn't sign the confession. The police admitted that they took him for a drive, claiming it was to search for evidence! Despite this information, Illinois gov. Jim Edgar refused to commute Girvies Davis sentence or allow a retrial, and he was executed on May 17, 1995. He died because he was poor and Black.

2. The death penalty punishes the poor.

"One searches our chronicles in vain for the execution of any member of the affluent strata in this society."
-Justice William O. Douglas.

# If you can afford good legal representation, you won't end up on death row.

# Over 90 percent of defendants charged with capital crimes are indigent and cannot afford to hire an experienced criminal defense attorney to represent them. They are forced to use inexperienced, underpaid court-appointed attorneys.

# In most states the pay for court appointed attorneys is so low that lawyers assigned to capital cases will lose $20-$30 an hour if they do an adequate job. In Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi defense attorneys are paid a flat fee of $1,000 -- which translates into about 5 dollars an hour for most lawyers.

# In 1996 Clinton cut federal funding to 20 legal resource centers which provided counsel to poor defendants. Now, all of the centers that received this funding have shut down.

# Many capital trials last less than a week -- hardly enough time to present a good defense.

The wealthy don't get punished

Between 1971 and 1977, an estimated 500 people burned to death in Ford Pinto crashes. Ford Motor Company knew that the Pinto's rear gas tank tended to puncture even in low-speed crashes. But Ford made a calculation that it could save millions of dollars if it opted to pay for damages and medical bills in Pinto explosion cases rather than install an $11 safety device that prevented the gas tank ruptures. Ford made a calculated decision to sell a lethal product, yet it was acquited of criminal charges. But even had they been convicted, there would be no Ford Motor Company executives sitting on death row. When it comes to capital punishment, our justice system can be compared to a fishing net in the ocean which has the peculiar quality of catching the minnows and letting the whales pass through!

[postfeminist]

3. The death penalty condemns the innocent to die.

# Since 1976, more than 100 people have been released from prison after being sentenced to death despite their innocence. In other words, 1 in 7 of those on death row have been freed after being fully exonerated.

# The book, In Spite of Innocence, notes that between 1900 and 1992 there have been 416 documented cases of innocent persons who have been convicted of murder or capital rape -- a third of whom were given a death sentence. The authors discovered that in 23 of these cases, the person was executed.

# Illinois has released as many from death row as it has executed since 1976. As a result, an Illinois Supreme Court Justice said, "Despite the courts' efforts to fashion a death penalty scheme that is just..., the system is not working. Innocent people are being sentenced to death... If this is the best our state can do, we have no business sending people to their deaths."

# President Clinton has called appeals by death row prisoners "ridiculous" and "interminable." He signed a law that limits prisoners to a single habeas corpus appeal within one year of conviction. Under this law, many of those released from death row due to innocence since 1976 would be dead.

"I am an innocent man."

Leonel Torres Herrera was convicted and sentenced to death for the 1982 murders of two police officers. New evidence was brought forward which proved that Herrera's brother committed the murders. By Texas law, which states that any new evidence must be presented within 30 days of the conviction, this new revelation was irrelevant. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld the Texas ruling, arguing that Herrera's claim of "actual innocence" was in itself not a constitutional claim for which judicial relief could be granted. Thus, though the court agreed he was innocent, Leonel was executed on May 12, 1993.

4. The death penalty is not a deterrent to violent crime.

# An FBI study shows that states which have abolished the death penalty averaged lower murder rates than states which have not.

More executions, more murders

Texas moved from its first execution after Furman in 1982 to becoming the national leader in the use of the death penalty. During the same period, the state also experienced a tremendous growth in its violent crime rate. From 1982 to 1991, the national crime rate rose by 5%. In the same period, the Texas crime rate rose by 24%, and the violent crime rate in Texas rose by nearly 46%. In Texas, more people die from gunshot wounds than traffic accidents. A strong case can be made that, rather than decreasing murder, capital punishment actually has a brutalizing effect on society, contributing to an increase in murder.

5. The death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment."

# In the decades since Furman 13 people have been executed who were under the age of 18 when they committed the crime for which they were convicted. Seventy more juveniles are currently on death row awaiting execution.

# Since Furman 34 mentally retarded inmates have been executed.

RICKY RAY RECTOR died in order to help Bill Clinton get elected President. Ricky was black and mentally retarded. In 1992, Clinton left the campaign trail and returned to Arkansas to oversee Ricky's execution so he could show that he was "tough on crime." Ricky had absolutely no understanding of what was about to happen to him. As a part of his last meal, he requested pie for dessert, but explained he would eat it when he came back. He was executed on Jan. 24, 1992.

[Duemellon]

So, PF, if the death penalty was made fair and balanced across demographics would u support it?

[postfeminist]

re: my big post... some of the info is a little outdated, but the argument holds true...

[postfeminist]

So, PF, if the death penalty was made fair and balanced across demographics would u support it?

absolutely not--but it's a ridiculous question--there is NO WAY to make it fair across demographics.

but i like using those 5 reasons because they are stronger than i think it's wrong.

but i do think it's wrong. i think that it's completely ridiculous and illogical for people to kill people to teach them that killing people is wrong. it's less expensive to incarcarate someone for life than it is to execute them (price of appeals in capital cases). i think it's wrong that the prison system is modern day slavery, that prison is not rehabilitative, and prisoners who try to learn something while they are in there are treated like shit. i think that we have all of the violence and crime in our society because people get caught up under all the shit and the weight of the world, and maybe if things were a little more equitable in general, there would be less violence and crime...

i'm not all the way awake yet, but i think i know what i'm trying to say...

[Duemellon]

i'm not all the way awake yet, but i think i know what i'm trying to say...Anyway, I was just pondering that. What do you think about...that? I hope everything is going alright. I may well wake up here in a little while and forget what I was thinking about.

[akip]

i'm not all the way awake yet, but i think i know what i'm trying to say...

i think i know what you're trying to say and i agree with it. thanks for posting the details.

[yoshomon]

Considering the number of innocent people found guilty of serious crimes, the death penalty is outrageous.

[classicgrrl]

excellent PF.

Thanks for sharing.

[frizgolf]

I'll admit it, I've been on the conservative side of the fence on capital punishment for a long time. However, with the errors being shown in the judicial system, and the cost of eternal appeals, it's getting harder to argue support for capital punishment.
For too many years, I just believed news accounts that suspects did what they did. Now I realize how much sensationalism goes on in news, and crime reporting is not immune from zealous news types. Too many innocent people have been put to death for my comfort. I no longer trust my government and judicial system to make the right decision.
There are, however, the undeniably guilty out there. Maybe the brain chemistry's outta whack, or the camera eye caught 'em in the act. I'll give it up on the death sentence for these few if there was a way to guarantee they never saw the outside of prison until they were in a pine box.

As for the abortion issue, we kicked that around back in November.
http://new.woxy.com/boards/showthread.php?t=21207&highlight=abortion
I've never wanted to enter the fray on the abortion issue. Since I was on the fence about it for so long, I've felt unqualified to offer an opinion. My opinion leaned towards the conservative side about 10 years ago, after attending an Ethics class in college. The student body was liberal-leaning, and the instructor was decidedly conservative, and I could tell he ruffled some feathers. He made a point which has stuck with me to this day.
In 1973, when the Supreme Court made its decision on Roe vs. Wade, it was already known scientifically for about a century that conception occurs when the sperm fertilizes the egg. What still wasn't known (and is still being debated) is when, exactly does life begin? Is it when the fetus can survive on its own, or is it when the fetus first exhibits human characteristics? The former argument was succesfully argued in 1973, and the idea of trimesters was used, by gleaning information from medical history about survival of premature fetuses.
What our Ethics instructor pointed out was that since 1973, DNA research has shown that a unique combination of DNA is created at conception, and that combination remains the same until death. This unique DNA combination has never been created before, and never will be created again. Thus, he pointed out, life (not necessarily self-sustaining) could be looked at as a continuum beginning at conception, and ending at death. He wondered aloud whether the justices of 1973, when confronted with this newer science, would have made the same decision.
He also wondered whether a generation inured to the consequences of ending one end of the continuum would eventually lose respect for the other end, by having an open mind about euthanasia for the elderly. Something to think about for you older people who intend to live longer, but may need medical services provided by those younger than you when you become dependent on them. Will they decide what is viable life for you? Only time will tell.
Now, I can't profess to even understand a woman's point of view on this issue, as I will never have to deal with night sweats, morning sickness, or even the stress of having to carry around a living, moving being in my body. This is why I stayed on the fence so long, it'll never happen to me. But I do realize there are serious issues such as rape, incest, and the mother's health when the fetus has a defect. I think each occurance should be dealt with individually on its own merits. I'm not fundamentalist, I don't think every effort should be made to bring each pregnancy to term. On the other hand, I think abortion has become much too convenient, and the woman, unless against her will, has made the "choice" about her body the minute she spreads her legs. I'm like most conservatives, I don't want a penny of my taxes spent to fund an abortion for someone who carelessly sleeps around. "I was drunk", or "he promised me ____" are not excuses. Hedonism got Sodom and Gamorrah destroyed, and it's happening here in our modern western society.

My $.02

Please carry on.

The whole DNA continuum aspect of life as we know it haunts me. How many potential Einsteins, Edisons, or MLKs (as well as Mansons or Hitlers) have been eliminated out of convenience since Roe vs. Wade?

[Orville Wrong]

Considering the number of innocent people found guilty of serious crimes, the death penalty is outrageous.
Hell, if the number ever reaches ONE in a capital case (and let's face it, it's probably beyond that by now), we've all committed homicide. No thanks.

[Duemellon]

So, the question is, if we eliminated error, would u then support the death penalty? (directd to all who used "error" as their only reasonin)

[purple_octopus]

So, the question is, if we eliminated error, would u then support the death penalty? (directd to all who used "error" as their only reasonin)
If it were possible to have zero error (which I do not think it will every be), I would probably support the death penalty. I tend to think of punishments as a means to protect society and not a means to rehabilitate the criminal. Frankly, I don't give a fuck about criminals (given, of course, that they are in fact guilty). I don't think they can be rehabilitated unless the change comes from within, and once they have already violated another's rights, it's a moot point anyway.

[CablinasianRam]

I believe that a civilized society isn't vengeful and shouldn't kill for the solace of victims. Now that being said, there only other reasonable reason to kill someone is that it would serve as a deterrant for others. However, that hasn't been shown to be the case.

People kill and commit violent acts because they're desperate. Desperate people will do anything to get by and survive another day. The death penalty will most likely postpone their death to a point where they may spent their final days is relative peace.

[purple_octopus]

I believe that a civilized society isn't vengeful and shouldn't kill for the solace of victims.

What about to simply get them off the streets and prevent them from every killing someone else again? Like a preventative measure?

Now that being said, there only other reasonable reason to kill someone is that it would serve as a deterrant for others. However, that hasn't been shown to be the case.
Maybe not in this country, where capital punishment doesn't mean you're going to die next week. Look at the crime statistics in Saudi Arabia for contrast. (Not that I'd want to live like that.)

People kill and commit violent acts because they're desperate. Desperate people will do anything to get by and survive another day. The death penalty will most likely postpone their death to a point where they may spent their final days is relative peace.
Who cares if a murderer spends his last day in peace? He or she certainly didn't give that consideration to their victim(s).

Like I said, I'll probably always be against the death penalty because of the imperfections of our justice system. But that in no way makes me sympathetic to the scumbags that are, in fact, guilty.

[CablinasianRam]

What about to simply get them off the streets and prevent them from every killing someone else again? Like a preventative measure?


Maybe not in this country, where capital punishment doesn't mean you're going to die next week. Look at the crime statistics in Saudi Arabia for contrast. (Not that I'd want to live like that.)


Who cares if a murderer spends his last day in peace? He or she certainly didn't give that consideration to their victim(s).

Like I said, I'll probably always be against the death penalty because of the imperfections of our justice system. But that in no way makes me sympathetic to the scumbags that are, in fact, guilty.

I think jails are a pretty good way to prevent people from killing again, people don't need to be killed in order to be neutralized by society. In Saudi Arabia, the crime statistics are properly based off of living under a religious state where every move you make is scrutinized. The punishments for actions there would be deemed inhumane by our standards. I think if we were to reinstitute beheadings, it would be a regression.

I think you're misreading what I said, for many the death penalty is a route they wouldn't mind taking because of the poor state of their lives. It's my belief that there shouldn't be a judge: not society, not a judicial system, to determine when someone else should be killed. Now murder is a disgusting act, but society should not stoop down to that level. Do I think criminals should be punished? Absolutely. I want their lives to be living hell, but I don't think they should be killed if it's shown that they don't respect life themselves.

[Duemellon]

Maybe not in this country, where capital punishment doesn't mean you're going to die next week. Look at the crime statistics in Saudi Arabia for contrast. (Not that I'd want to live like that.)& look at the statistics of othr countries/states that don't hav capital punishmnt. Compare the non-capital punishment US states to the non-capital punishment nations, & the crime is still higher here.

why?

[classicgrrl]

The whole DNA continuum aspect of life as we know it haunts me. How many potential Einsteins, Edisons, or MLKs (as well as Mansons or Hitlers) have been eliminated out of convenience since Roe vs. Wade?

doesn't matter if they are born in a society that doesn't want them.

I've already expanded many a rant so I won't do that again. Take away abortion and you've got unwanted babies (you've got them anyway and but that's another issue). And the minute a man gets an erection and chooses to place it in a certain place he's made a choice as well. It is nearly always (single) women who end up raising unwanted babies.

Everyone loves to argue the philosophical side of abortion. NOBODY wants to talk about the practicalities.

[foolsgold]

So, the question is, if we eliminated error, would u then support the death penalty? (directd to all who used "error" as their only reasonin)

Doesn't matter because we'll never achieve a level of reason that would remove error, so the question is moot. Maybe somewhere out there is some nerd who can devise a comprehensive computer program which delivers a 100% accurate GUILTY. However, I fear that would have the same success as the BCS.

And don't get me started on RPI, either.

I think most people here see other flaws in with the death penalty than just "whoopsie-daisy", but in their scale of importance, that is highest.

[eno is god]

That's why here in Canada most of the hip emo cool canadians hate the united states of america. Because Death Penalty is legal.. barbaric.

[postfeminist]

I WOULD NEVER EVER SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY.

just to make that clear.

now, in the event that someone hurt a member of my family, rather than supporting capital punishment, i'd probably hunt the fucker down & kill them myself. :D

[Duemellon]

Doesn't matter because we'll never achieve a level of reason that would remove error, so the question is moot. Maybe somewhere out there is some nerd who can devise a comprehensive computer program which delivers a 100% accurate GUILTY. However, I fear that would have the same success as the BCS.If we reserved the death penalty for ppl who confessd, pleadd guilty, & had the act caught on some form of media, & any & all othr forms of murdr were not up for capital sentencing... AND the person confessin demonstrated premeditation to the act...

would u support the death penalty?

[Johnnylama]

Just a couple of thoughts…

1. Similar to the state point, countries w/o the death penalty have lower rates of violent crime. The problem here is chicken or the egg: more violent crime = death penalty or death penalty = more violent crime? My take: more violent culture= more violent crime and death penalty.

2. Speaking of religion and abortion, in Catholic school they taught us that “Pro-Life” is SUPPOSED to mean no abortion, no death penalty, no euthanasia, no nothing; therefore, all these people who voted for Bush b/c he’s pro-life have it wrong. He’s really not. I don't know how the fundy's define it. They probably lift "eye for an eye" out of the old testament along w/ don't lay w/ someone of your gender, and ignore all the stuff in Levidicus about not touching women on their period and not eating animals with split hoofs, etc. etc. etc.

[postfeminist]

If we reserved the death penalty for ppl who confessd, pleadd guilty, & had the act caught on some form of media, & any & all othr forms of murdr were not up for capital sentencing... AND the person confessin demonstrated premeditation to the act...

would u support the death penalty?

nope.

i still think it's illogical and unethical to kill people in order to teach them that killing people is wrong. now if you wanna give them a rope and something to hang themselves from if that's what they choose, then let it be...

[Orville Wrong]

1. Similar to the state point, countries w/o the death penalty have lower rates of violent crime. The problem here is chicken or the egg: more violent crime = death penalty or death penalty = more violent crime? My take: more violent culture= more violent crime and death penalty.
I don't really care if the death penalty reduces crime or not, I'm against it.

There are non-death-penalty countries with low violent crime rates, but Canada now has more violent crime than we do per capita -- around 4,600 per 100K here vs. 5,000 per 100K in the Dominion. Admittedly, this is a recent development (last 5 years or so). England, France and other European countries are seeing upswings in violence too, mostly among immigrants.

US violent crime is down over last five, though I don't know why -- some say 9/11.

[Orville Wrong]

some say more guns, less crime.
Yeah, I say that sometimes. I'm in favor of gun freedom.

But I really think low crime has more to do with ethnic/cultural homogeneity and climate.

[Orville Wrong]

no you wouldn't, you'd just change your mind about the death penalty.
Don't let the smiley fool you, I'm pretty sure she'd do the thing she said she'd do.

[Orville Wrong]

That's why here in Canada most of the hip emo cool canadians hate the united states of america. Because Death Penalty is legal.. barbaric.
I have been adamantly anti-death penalty for decades, but if the death penalty is keeping "hip emo cool canadians" the fuck out of here, I've got some soul searching to do.

[Duemellon]

But I really think low crime has more to do with ethnic/cultural homogeneity and climate.plz xplain this...

I'll accept the thought that u were being sarcastic as well.

[Orville Wrong]

No sarcasm, and very little evidence, but:

Countries with lower median temperatures tend to have lower crime (as do we, in the winter). Swelter makes people irritable.

Countries where everyone is the same like Sweden or Japan tend to have lower crime. Not because there's no one different to hate on, but because of a longstanding shared culture perhaps.

Edit: Temperature lowers violent crime. Homogeneity -- all crime.

[purple_octopus]

I have been adamantly anti-death penalty for decades, but if the death penalty is keeping "hip emo cool canadians" the fuck out of here, I've got some soul searching to do.
I never thought I'd change my sig, but....

[DaHood]

So, the question is, if we eliminated error, would u then support the death penalty? (directd to all who used "error" as their only reasonin)I don't think I stated error as my only reason but I'd like to chime in on this one anyway. I use error as a reason when I'm in an argument about the death penalty with some bible thumper. Some of them seem to think that it's 'biblical' to have the death penalty and somehow God says it's the right thing to do. You know, eye for an eye and all that crap. Well even if you take away the error I still have a moral problem with it because I don't think such an ultimate solution is up to humans, it's up to God himself and He will judge that person accordingly. Besides that, as PF has said, it's just not logical to kill someone to show that killing is wrong.

I've still had a hard time coming to that decision, when I see some of the horrible things that some people do. It just seems to me that some people do not deserve to live but that's me being emotional and reactionary. I've had to rise to something above my own emotional reactions to decide that capital punishment is wrong. I'm glad we don't have it in Michigan and I hope we never do.

[yoshomon]

no you wouldn't, you'd just change your mind about the death penalty.

Some of the most outspoken death penalty critics are the families of murder victims.

[Orville Wrong]

if they are or are not against it, shouldn't the families of murder victims' opinion be more important than anyone else's?
Yes, let's ask the Menendez brothers. They're orphans, don't you know. :D

[Duemellon]

if they are or are not against it, shouldn't the families of murder victims' opinion be more important than anyone else's?if u believed that, then why did u suggest otherwise?

I too am curious to how PF can be against capital punishment carried out by the govnmnt but b pretty confident she'd "lose it" & want to make sure a perp who hurt her personally died.

Is it the proximity to vengence?

[markalot]

if u believed that, then why did u suggest otherwise?

I too am curious to how PF can be against capital punishment carried out by the govnmnt but b pretty confident she'd "lose it" & want to make sure a perp who hurt her personally died.

Is it the proximity to vengence?


If I dare answer here ...

I'm reading that the objection to the death penalty is mostly being sure, not killing in of itself. If we could be 100% sure someone committed the crime in question the we can kill them.

That's my belief anyway, and if we COULD be 100% sure I would expand the death penalty to most violent crimes (including rape) and possible child molestation.

That ain't gonna happen of course.

[eno is god]

I have been adamantly anti-death penalty for decades, but if the death penalty is keeping "hip emo cool canadians" the fuck out of here, I've got some soul searching to do.

hahahahaha, nice

[DaHood]

if we COULD be 100% sure I would expand the death penalty to most violent crimes (including rape) and possible child molestation.
You have no idea how tempted I am to agree with that.

[classicgrrl]

You have no idea how tempted I am to agree with that.

I don't. Killing is wrong. And mandating the state to kill legally is even more wrong.

I may have to live with the consequences of my neighbor's actions; but is my own moral code I must live with...it is my face in the mirror every morning.

[eno is god]

Killing is wrong

It's as simple as that, really.

[slow-dog]

What if we legalized abortion as late as the 240th trimester?

[DaHood]

I don't. Killing is wrong. And mandating the state to kill legally is even more wrong.

I may have to live with the consequences of my neighbor's actions; but is my own moral code I must live with...it is my face in the mirror every morning.
I'm with you CC, I'm just saying that it's not an easy decision for some of us to decide that the death penalty is wrong. When I hear about some of these fucks and the things they do do others especially children, I'm tempted to want them to be put to death... I make a conscious decision that it's not the right thing to do. No matter what my emotions have to say about the subject, I think my intellect and my morals say it's wrong no matter what.

[Duemellon]

Sexually abusing children leaves as much scars as physical abuse & emotional abuse. If you want to kill someone for permanently wounding a child & diverting their possible life-outcome, then kill them all equally.

[akip]

Sexually abusing children leaves as much scars as physical abuse & emotional abuse. If you want to kill someone for permanently wounding a child & diverting their possible life-outcome, then kill them all equally.

hey, maybe i can have my brother arrested for torturing me psychologically when we were kids. but i guess the statute of limitations has run out.