Why Do People Hate America?

[JSpaceman]

Has anyone read this book by Ziauddin Sardar? I saw it mentioned on another board and read some of the excerpts from it and it looks like a damned interesting book.

Here is a summary of his points:

Four fundamental reasons to understand America:

1) God is described as the cause of everything; In today’s globalised world, America has become the prime cause of everything. Nothing seems to move without America’s consent; nothing can be solved without America’s involvement. At the global level, America is both the first cause and the sustaining cause. What this means is that America is no longer a conventional superpower. It is the first hyperpower in history. Its culture has penetrated every minute segment of the globe. In a very real sense, America has not only colonised the present, it has also colonised the future. America is now engaged in rewriting history.

2) The second reason relates to an argument for God’s existence: God is the most perfect being, it is more perfect to exist than not exist, therefore, God exists. Good and evil are related as opposite. So if evil exists there must also be good. America relates to the world through such circular logic. With Us or Against Us - Because ‘terrorists’ are evil, America is good and virtuous - The ‘Axis of Evil’ – How often have we heard American leaders proclaim that God is with them; or that History has called on America to act?

3) The third reason: Like God America exists for, in and by itself. All global life must, willingly or unwillingly, pay total homage to the US. For America, nothing matters except its own interests; the interests, needs, concerns and desires of all nations, all people, indeed the planet itself, must be subservient to the interests of the US and the comfort and consumption of American lifestyle. This is why Americans are happy to consume most of the resources of the world, insist on exceptionally cheap petrol. Because America is the world and the world is America, the US has been able to structure the global economy to continuously enrich itself and reduce non-western societies to abject poverty.

4) The fourth reason is that America has become the defining power of the world. Now America defines what is ‘international law’, ‘free market’ and ‘multiculturalism’, who is a ‘fundamentalist’, ‘terrorist’, or simply ‘evil’. The rest of the world, including Europe, must simply accept these definitions and follow the American lead.

[DaHood]

Nothing seems to move without America’s consent; nothing can be solved without America’s involvement. At the global level, America is both the first cause and the sustaining cause. What this means is that America is no longer a conventional superpower. It is the first hyperpower in history. Its culture has penetrated every minute segment of the globe.
Yeah ain't it great? Like a supermodel "Don't hate be because I'm beautiful" :p

[ThreeDLou]

I'd like to read that book, but my doctor warned me about getting my blood pressure up.

I kill.

[boyinastitch]

"America is just a word, but i use it"

[markalot]

People don't hate america. :D

[rocketman70]

I'd like to read that book, but my doctor warned me about getting my blood pressure up.

I kill.


Yeah, I'm with you. This does sound interesting, but I get the feeling that I'd end up having a stroke before finishing it.

[benway]

Yeah, except we can't even kick one little country's ass. Some hyper power

[tobedawg]

Nah Nah! this article got it ALL Wrong: The terrorists HATE America because they are jealous of our Freedom.. All of the other countries WANT to be like America, because of our liberty and freedom..

[ianalex10]

I would gladly buy you all one way tickets to Syria! Let me know where to send them!

[Johnnylama]

Iantranslation: bla.



I've always heard that most people like what America is supposed to stand for (freedom, equality, opportunity, etc.), but they don't like many of America's actions (power, control and self-centeredness), so those points seem somewhat valid. Agree or disagree, sounds like an interesting read.

[Duemellon]

Every law infringes on freedom. Every moment you are free you are breaking someone else's freedom. There really is no such thing as total and utter freedom to do what you want unless what you want is so scripted and cautious that it's done in a way that never encroaches on someone else.

Freedom is not as important as respect, compassion, and inclusion.

In our society we tend to forget that. We are the most free people on the planet, free to make preposturous demands of others, free to make others leave their homes so we may be there, free to kill, steal, coerce treatise, and such, from others.

We're free at their expense.

[JSpaceman]

Nah Nah! this article got it ALL Wrong: The terrorists HATE America because they are jealous of our Freedom.. All of the other countries WANT to be like America, because of our liberty and freedom..
Wow, and there's no sarcasm there, either... :confused:

[PeterABnny]

3) The third reason: Like God America exists for, in and by itself. All global life must, willingly or unwillingly, pay total homage to the US. For America, nothing matters except its own interests; the interests, needs, concerns and desires of all nations, all people, indeed the planet itself, must be subservient to the interests of the US and the comfort and consumption of American lifestyle. This is why Americans are happy to consume most of the resources of the world, insist on exceptionally cheap petrol. Because America is the world and the world is America, the US has been able to structure the global economy to continuously enrich itself and reduce non-western societies to abject poverty.
[/i]


These are the very words Dumbass and his Republican worshippers live by, methinks...

[weeone]

We are the only country whose poor are fat. That's fucked up. :(

[Handy Smurf]

We are the only country whose poor are fat. That's fucked up. :(
Yes it is and thats all I need to say

[jd1]

Most people who hate America do so out of ignorance, pure and simple.

The clueless American, utterly ignorant of the way the rest of the world lives, is a popular stereotype. However, in my experience, the rest of the world is often equally clueless about America. They cheerfully believe all the worst conspiracy theories that anyone can dream up. They utterly refuese to consider any interpretation of events but their own. They attribute their ideals, goals, and values to us, and make no effort whatsoever to consider that we might not be the same as them.

Of course, I think that most hate stems from ignorance... But that's a different question.

--JD

[JSpaceman]

Most Americans I see firsthand are greedy, ignorant, and selfish. How does that make the rest of the world ignorant if they see us as such? Seems like pretty much the true situation to me...

[weeone]

Yep, get on any train in any foreign country and you'll note the difference. The Americans are impossible to miss. Not in a pleasant way.

[Orville Wrong]

methinks...
If Americans are the people that use "methinks," then the riddle of why we are hated is solved to my satisfaction.

[weeone]

If Americans are the people that use "methinks," then the riddle of why we are hated is solved to my satisfaction.

*snort*

ok here's some more.

[seafoamgreen]

If Americans are the people that use "methinks," then the riddle of why we are hated is solved to my satisfaction.


orville, you're about one step away from the wrath of me and my 20 sided die.

[Handy Smurf]

Most Americans I see firsthand are greedy, ignorant, and selfish. How does that make the rest of the world ignorant if they see us as such? Seems like pretty much the true situation to me...
to play devil's advocate- because i think jd made an interesting point and even though i agree that many people are greedy, ignorant, and selfish...how well do you have to know someone to be able to fairly characterize them in such a manner? I would say you would have to consider someone at least an acquaintance to be able to know enough about them to make that claim. Therefore does it not reason that either most of your own friends and family are greedy, ignorant, selfish people, or that you know enough other people outside of close friends and family that have those traits that it makes the nonoffending others that significant of a minority. Which begs the question-who are you hanging around with and why? or are you just making generalizations?

[JSpaceman]

OK, maybe I shouldn't say individuals as much as American society. Watch TV, watch people in restaurants, the mall- we're a culture of greed, plain and simple. More is always better, never questioned. I don't think those are good traits for a country's society...

[keyst2891]

Most people who hate America do so out of ignorance, pure and simple.

--JD

This goes both ways for sure. That stereotype that you talked about is actually pretty well alive in many cases.

Tell me something, if I put 100 random people to the side and asked them to take a test on.... let's say.... Afghan culture.

If I were to ask 20 questions about standard items such as, "What is Afghanistan's leading export?" "How do Afghans buy and sell goods?" "What is the average income of an Afghan person?" "How many different religions exist inside Afghanistan?" so on and so forth.

How many questions would Americans get right??? Out of that room of 100 hundred people, I would be damn surprised to see one person answer 15 questions right. Yet, I bet 80 out of those 100 people would have an opinion about Afghanistan and how to handle our presence there. To me, that is ignorance and it runs rampid through America.

I am not saying that freeing people is a bad thing or that we shouldn't be there. I am just stating the fact that it is much more because of OUR ignorance as a people that makes others despise our country. We are fighting a war in two countries that 95% of Americans have no clue about. Tell me how that is not ignorant.

The war could be a good thing for the world or it could be a bad thing for the world but American People couldn't tell you one way or the other because they are blind to the situation. Yet, we are arrogant enough in this country to debate these issues everyday and pretend that we know what is going on. :mad:

[weeone]

Which begs the question-

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-beg1.htm
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See for uses. In arguments, this means to take something for granted in an argument, not to evoke questioning of an issue.

[akip]

i think we mistakenly believe people want to live like we do. we give up a lot to get what we have. we have little sense of history or community. we eat crummy food on the run. we spend too much time on the highway. we have lousy mass culture aesthetics.

i used to argue (often with canadians) that the u.s. was the most creative society on the planet 'cause we had a maverick spirit--we refused to line up. but now i think we could lose that spirit because of the clear channels and other market forces that squash creative risk-taking.

[markalot]

Watch TV,

TV magnifies everything that is wrong. That's entertainment. :D

[weeone]

Amen Akip ! Most of us powerful countries assume cultural imposition on less dominant countries : France, Spain, England, etc historically. The US has become the culmination of centuries of domination by western european countries ...

[JSpaceman]

TV magnifies everything that is wrong. That's entertainment. :D
I'm talking about advertising and news as well. Same rules apply, are you going to argue that that's skewed?

[jd1]

I am not saying that freeing people is a bad thing or that we shouldn't be there. I am just stating the fact that it is much more because of OUR ignorance as a people that makes others despise our country

I think this is wrong. The source of their hatred is their ignorance of us. Give the a test about America to 100 average Afghanis and see how well they do. All they know about America comes from either Schwartzenegger movies or the hatemongers at the madras (or the Reichstag, if you will). No wonder it is so easy for them to demonize us, or dehumanaize us.

By all accounts, most of the 3rd World believes America had something to do with the 9/11 attacks. The motive was to provide an excuse to go to war with the Islamic world, in order to further Israeli interests. The foreign media does much to promote this view. It is this total detachment from reality that makes it so easy to hate America, to see every action we take (including no action at all) as some part of a vast and sinister conspiracy.

--JD

[Necromancer]

I'm talking about advertising and news as well.

There's a difference?

[Wondertastic]

the real reason everyone hates America is due to our dominance in the Summer Olympic games.


duh.

[ThreeDLou]

By all accounts, most of the 3rd World believes America had something to do with the 9/11 attacks.
Honestly, I don't think it's just the "Third" World that thinks that.

[wileE]

Amen Akip ! Most of us powerful countries assume cultural imposition on less dominant countries : France, Spain, England, etc historically. The US has become the culmination of centuries of domination by western european countries ...

When did the weeone get so smart?

[seafoamgreen]

I think this is wrong. The source of their hatred is their ignorance of us. Give the a test about America to 100 average Afghanis and see how well they do. All they know about America comes from either Schwartzenegger movies or the hatemongers at the madras (or the Reichstag, if you will). No wonder it is so easy for them to demonize us, or dehumanaize us.

To pin this all on ignorance strikes me as a bit misguided. History plays a large part in foreign perceptions of the US. Not too long ago america and the soviet union were playing out the cold war not in their own borders, but in Third-World(term used only because of its historical connotations) nations.

Afghanis might know more about the ramifications of US foreign policy far better than your average american.

The fact is we are the nation left standing after the cold war, and America will be resented for the part it played.

[Orville Wrong]

orville, you're about one step away from the wrath of me and my 20 sided die.
I was making saving throws when you were still an unweaned stripling in the Mountains of T'Narggh!

[JSpaceman]

When did the weeone get so smart?
She was born that way, ya goob!

(trying to stay on weeone's good side...) ;)

[weeone]

Hahahaha. *slaps spacey high five*


WileE !!! :cool:

Surprise sneak attacks, subtlety and charm are my biggest assets. That and my complete willingness to look like an idiot/asshole.

[Handy Smurf]

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-beg1.htm
^
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See for uses. In arguments, this means to take something for granted in an argument, not to evoke questioning of an issue.
we weren't arguing
:p
and don't ever quote some snotty british catfucker in my general direction again... :rolleyes: no offense rafe, although your cat buggering really is disgusting

[weeone]

Just seeking to enlighten ... I wasn't pointing to a British definition: I learned the logical fallacy called "begging the question" in an American classroom ;) PS Arguing isn't negative in this connotation. :D Ok, I'll shut up. I'm a dork - meh.

[jd1]

Afghanis might know more about the ramifications of US foreign policy far better than your average american.

Because they lived in a country rent by civil war and superpower maneuvering? You think this trumps the fact that there were no schools, no media, no access to information, and no education to speak of (other than extremist-funded brainwashing centers)?

This absurd reasoning amounts to saying that being the victim of something makes one an expert in it. Is everyone who lost a family member on 9/11 an instant expert on global terrorism?

Indeed, the Afghan experience does not suggest some deep understanding of global affairs... It does, however, explain their bias in viewing America and its actions.

--JD

[mike]

I was making saving throws when you were still an unweaned stripling in the Mountains of T'Narggh!


BTW, is that anyway near the Castle Aaauuggh?

(he asked knowingly...)

[PeterABnny]

If Americans are the people that use "methinks," then the riddle of why we are hated is solved to my satisfaction.


Well, nanny nanny boo boo, Le Tigre. At least I have a command of the English language... :p ;) :D

[The Hamsky]

[QUOTE=JSpaceman]OK, maybe I shouldn't say individuals as much as American society. Watch TV, watch people in restaurants, the mall- we're a culture of greed, plain and simple. More is always better, never questioned. I don't think those are good traits for a country's society...

I don't know who any of you people are, seeing how i just joined this board... But Greed plays a major role but in a sense so does selfishness.. How is that that other human non-american lives have such little value.. How many people died in 9/11? how many innocent children have already died in Iraq? Yet Americans still wave their flags in support of senseless murder.. As long as Americans can go to sleep in their over priced appartments with little worries other then what they will wear tomorow, America will always be a selfish country.. Why does an American soldier get a medal of honour for killing the most humans? Because that dead (enemy) isnt American .!!! What do people get for killing Amricans? The death penalty!! Except for Bush he's allowed to run planes into his own towers in New York kill thousands and then be Re-ellected.. Weird

[weeone]

[QUOTE=JSpaceman]OK, maybe I shouldn't say individuals as much as American society. Watch TV, watch people in restaurants, the mall- we're a culture of greed, plain and simple. More is always better, never questioned. I don't think those are good traits for a country's society...

I don't know who any of you people are, seeing how i just joined this board... But Greed plays a major role but in a sense so does selfishness.. How is that that other human non-american lives have such little value.. How many people died in 9/11? how many innocent children have already died in Iraq? Yet Americans still wave their flags in support of senseless murder.. As long as Americans can go to sleep in their over priced appartments with little worries other then what they will wear tomorow, America will always be a selfish country.. Why does an American soldier get a medal of honour for killing the most humans? Because that dead (enemy) isnt American .!!! What do people get for killing Amricans? The death penalty!! Except for Bush he's allowed to run planes into his own towers in New York kill thousands and then be Re-ellected.. Weird

You are preached to the choir, kitten. Welcome to the boards though :)

Edited to add : I didn't read the last part of this :o until spacey lit it up. Shame to me. That's a very poor statement, ham-person. I shouldn't have quoted without reading. 40 lashes with stuff.

[JSpaceman]

Except for Bush he's allowed to run planes into his own towers in New York kill thousands
As much as I agree with and respect everything else you said, I gotta say that's quite an exaggeration right there, and believe me, I'm anything but pro-Bush...

[seafoamgreen]

Because they lived in a country rent by civil war and superpower maneuvering? You think this trumps the fact that there were no schools, no media, no access to information, and no education to speak of (other than extremist-funded brainwashing centers)?

This absurd reasoning amounts to saying that being the victim of something makes one an expert in it. Is everyone who lost a family member on 9/11 an instant expert on global terrorism?

Indeed, the Afghan experience does not suggest some deep understanding of global affairs... It does, however, explain their bias in viewing America and its actions.

--JD
Perhaps i didn't draw out what I meant by knowledge enough, perhaps you missed the point a bit.
- experience is one way of knowing. It that sense, people who suffered because of US/Soviet foreign policy may have a more real knowledge of this. Experience is a different form a knowing than expertise. I'm not putting value on one over the other, but both deserved to be mentioned.
- as a point of semantics-i cannot say one way or the other what the educational situation in afganistan was like pre-soviet invasion, but these "extremist-funded brainwashing centers" didn't have the prominence they did afterwards.


all i am saying is perhaps ignorance isn't the only thing causing problems here, that there might have been real consequences from past foreign policy. I would also agree with others on this thread that american cultural hegemony might play a role in this.

[weezer6]

it seems to me, the only way for us to be liked, according to the folks posting, is to step back about 200 years, and live like the olden days. we talk about greed, laziness, commercials, news, all that shit, and every one of us partake. we're all greedy. there are people on this board that have thousands of cd's. why? call it what you want, but it's greed. you don't NEED every afghan whigs cd, but fuck it, you're gonna get 'em. i'm right there with you. i don't have cable, but i have about $5000 worth of bikes. yeah, bikes. i like 'em. unless you live in a treehouse, bound together with vines, you're greedy in one way or the other. we all want more and better.

and the folks in most other countries want what we have. they hate us because we got it goin' on.

we have a decent amount of filipinos that work in my plant. they ALL try to bring their families over. my buddies girlfriend just got her citizenship, and wants to bring over her son. he's got to wait like 3 or 4 years because there are so many on the waiting list. forget it if you're an adult. i don't know about other countries, but if the wait is that long for immigration, they can't be hating that much.

the only way for the world to like us is if we/they get to our level of living, because there is no way any of us - you, me, whoever - are going to step back and voluntarily reduce our current level of living to that of a sheep herder in africa, or something similar.

[weeone]

I'm going to get pounced for this: but I think some of this is just human nature. People will always hate people in other countries ... the French and the English historically hate eachother ... you should hear the French talk about Belgians ... one of my teachers in Paris hated Japanese tourists and blamed a lot of the problems with tourism in France on the "asiatiques". There's ethnic war all over Africa, eastern Europe and in Asia ... it's a mess all over this planet, and I don't think we'll see this ending anytime in our lives. We aren't the only ones hated, we are the most visibly hated.

[Handy Smurf]

I'm going to get pounced for this: but I think some of this is just human nature. People will always hate people in other countries ... the French and the English historically hate eachother ... you should hear the French talk about Belgians ... one of my teachers in Paris hated Japanese tourists and blamed a lot of the problems with tourism in France on the "asiatiques". There's ethnic war all over Africa, eastern Europe and in Asia ... it's a mess all over this planet, and I don't think we'll see this ending anytime in our lives. We aren't the only ones hated, we are the most visibly hated.
Does anyone want to go live with me on the moon?

[JSpaceman]

Does anyone want to go live with me on the moon?
With you? No.

[weeone]

Does anyone want to go live with me on the moon?

Yes. We could get a condo ...

[silvertone32]

I'm going to get pounced for this: but I think some of this is just human nature. People will always hate people in other countries ... the French and the English historically hate eachother ... you should hear the French talk about Belgians ... one of my teachers in Paris hated Japanese tourists and blamed a lot of the problems with tourism in France on the "asiatiques". There's ethnic war all over Africa, eastern Europe and in Asia ... it's a mess all over this planet, and I don't think we'll see this ending anytime in our lives. We aren't the only ones hated, we are the most visibly hated.



Very astute observation....... We might be hated but there never seems to a shortage of people willing to pack up their lives and move to our country.

[weeone]

Very astute observation....... We might be hated but there never seems to a shortage of people willing to pack up their lives and move to our country.

Kind of think that's the beauty of this place. To be optimistic. Soak it up. Doesn't happen often.

[Handy Smurf]

With you? No.
I couldve really used the experience of a Spaceman, but I dont need you infecting our new godfearing society with your satanic music and your lesbian weddings


weeone, you have spot #1 in the smurfspacestation, there are still 8 rooms available, until the downstairs kitchen is converted into a recroom with a futon, then someone can sleep there

[weeone]

Sweet.

*puts on goggles and loads up iPod.*

*blasts off on hypervespa*

[Duemellon]

and the folks in most other countries want what we have. they hate us because we got it goin' on.that mentality bothers me deeply. I find that stance to be selfgrandizing, belittling, & intentionally blinding.

The thought that the reason why a 2nd tier (industrially speaking) country despises us is out of jealousy focuses on one aspect of a larger problem. If you recognize that we are indeed out there wrecking civilizations, disenfranchizing populations, & consolidating resources through force, but then turn around & say "They hate us because we got it going on" is like a bully saying that about the victims he left behind while he eats the horde of snack-sized vanilla pudding cups he coerced from them.i don't know about other countries, but if the wait is that long for immigration, they can't be hating that much.maybe one of us should check out how long immigration takes for our peer countries?there is no way any of us - you, me, whoever - are going to step back and voluntarily reduce our current level of living to that of a sheep herder in africa, or something similar.We don't have to reduce our current standard of living back to paleo-egalitarian times just to bring everyone else up to par. It's that fear that helps fuel xenophobia. There really is enough for us to share, but we don't want to, because we want everything.

I'm willing to suffer serious losses in my standard of living if they can be moved up...

frankly because it's going to happen either through deliberate & measured means or some violent crumbling of life as we know it in a hail of bullets and revolution.I'm going to get pounced for this: but I think some of this is just human nature.It's human nature to find patterns. It's human nature to make assumptions of behavior based on patterns. It's conditioning that adds value to those distinctions & conditioning also will point out new aspects to "pay attention for" or which characteristics to lookout for.

[JSpaceman]

I couldve really used the experience of a Spaceman, but I dont need you infecting our new godfearing society with your satanic music and your lesbian weddings

Sorry chief- been there, done that.

http://www.carlinglive.com/img/reviews/img_big_spiritualized.jpg

[weeone]

It's human nature to find patterns. It's human nature to make assumptions of behavior based on patterns. It's conditioning that adds value to those distinctions & conditioning also will point out new aspects to "pay attention for" or which characteristics to lookout for.

Thank heavens. The anticipation of the pouncing was killing me. I can relax now. Ahh.

Edited to call attention to Due's inpeccable spelling :D

[ianalex10]

[QUOTE=JSpaceman]OK, maybe I shouldn't say individuals as much as American society. Watch TV, watch people in restaurants, the mall- we're a culture of greed, plain and simple. More is always better, never questioned. I don't think those are good traits for a country's society...

I don't know who any of you people are, seeing how i just joined this board... But Greed plays a major role but in a sense so does selfishness.. How is that that other human non-american lives have such little value.. How many people died in 9/11? how many innocent children have already died in Iraq? Yet Americans still wave their flags in support of senseless murder.. As long as Americans can go to sleep in their over priced appartments with little worries other then what they will wear tomorow, America will always be a selfish country.. Why does an American soldier get a medal of honour for killing the most humans? Because that dead (enemy) isnt American .!!! What do people get for killing Amricans? The death penalty!! Except for Bush he's allowed to run planes into his own towers in New York kill thousands and then be Re-ellected.. Weird


OMG, you are an idiot!!

[weeone]

OMG, you are an idiot!!

Is this the guy I should be ignoring ? This post doesn't indicate intelligent responses worth monitoring ... :cool:

[JSpaceman]

frankly because it's going to happen either through deliberate & measured means or some violent crumbling of life as we know it in a hail of bullets and revolution.
I agree. How long before Rome burns again?



Edited to call attention to Due's inpeccable spelling :D
No kidding. What gives? Due, you feelin' OK buddy? :p

And once again, ianalex38 can't argue a point to save his life.

[Duemellon]

Thank heavens. The anticipation of the pouncing was killing me. I can relax now. Ahh.

Edited to call attention to Due's inpeccable spelling :DOh, I didn't put enough swear words in it to be considered a "pouncing", more like a "slow climb upon"

[weeone]

Oh, I didn't put enough swear words in it to be considered a "pouncing", more like a "slow climb upon"

Yes, let me edit: I will get a slow climbing upon.
:confused: that doesn't sound so bad ... hehehahahahHAHA. That got funnier after I typed it.

[ianalex10]

I'm willing to suffer serious losses in my standard of living if they can be moved up...


Really??? Then why haven't you done it yet??

[IPrayForSound]

I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I personally hate that bitch America is 'cause she stabbed me and stole my wallet.

[Handy Smurf]

well I've been through the desert on a horse with no name, it feels good to be out of the rain
c'mon, how can everyone not love that!

[Handy Smurf]

Really??? Then why haven't you done it yet??
ianalex10, giving foreigners good reason to hate America since 1986

[Duemellon]

Stupidly I clickd the "view post by [ignored person]" & I felt compelld to answr.

Howevr, Voldemort10, I realize that ur response wasn't meant to b a startin point for discussion, it was intendd to b a jab. Howevr, I did not take it as a jab b/c I hav answrs to demonstrate my intentional lowerin of my standrd of livin in preparation for the collapse &, well, b/c I really don't need all this shit.

[weezer6]

The thought that the reason why a 2nd tier (industrially speaking) country despises us is out of jealousy focuses on one aspect of a larger problem. If you recognize that we are indeed out there wrecking civilizations, disenfranchizing populations, & consolidating resources through force, but then turn around & say "They hate us because we got it going on" is like a bully saying that about the victims he left behind while he eats the horde of snack-sized vanilla pudding cups he coerced from them.


the reason some of this shit is going on, you list only the negatives, by the way, is so that the bully can get you and i our snack sized vanilla pudding cups, cuz we love 'em, and won't give them up, and he'll make money off of us.

[Duemellon]

cuz we love 'em, and won't give them up, and he'll make money off of us.but that's not entirely tru. There r places & things I won't go to, use, or own b/c of how they got them & what it means.

It doesn't stop them from doin it b/c, really, the loss of 0.00000000000000000001% of their sales doesn't mean shit to them, but I'm only a tertiary component of that bhavior.

Bsides, I kno what ur implyin: That I still reap the benefits of this "bully" & wouldn't want to giv up the benefits. That's patently untru. I'v seen too many situations in our society where someone reaps the benefits of an institution setup that they attach themselvs to but assume no blame, or no responsibility, to correct the ills of that institution.

[ianalex10]

Stupidly I clickd the "view post by [ignored person]" & I felt compelld to answr.

Howevr, Voldemort10, I realize that ur response wasn't meant to b a startin point for discussion, it was intendd to b a jab. Howevr, I did not take it as a jab b/c I hav answrs to demonstrate my intentional lowerin of my standrd of livin in preparation for the collapse &, well, b/c I really don't need all this shit.


I'm glad ur enjoying the Harry Potter series from your bomb shelter!

[JSpaceman]

I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I personally hate that bitch America is 'cause she stabbed me and stole my wallet.
Them Hollywood hookers is vicious! Sorry 'bout your luck.

[weezer6]

but that's not entirely tru. There r places & things I won't go to, use, or own b/c of how they got them & what it means.

that's right, and there's plenty of good the USA and its capitalistic pig mentality have contributed to the world community, also, but of course, it's quite unpopular on these boards to say anything positive about he US, so i throw in a little here and there.

i'll watch the amazing race tonite, and watch all the people in the other countries spitting on the hated american contestants.

i need to check with my brother in italy, too, to see how much he's hated.

[weeone]

ianalex10, giving foreigners good reason to hate America since 1986

Ha !

Ha!

I say, 10 characters.

[JSpaceman]

it's quite unpopular on these boards to say anything positive about he US, so i throw in a little here and there.

I'm sure that's true to some degree, but I wouldn't say that completely. Almost sounds like a bit of a martyr complex you got goin' on there... (I'm kidding, I'm kidding!!!!)

But let me point out for the sake of idiots that I won't name that even though I don't agree with a lot of your beliefs, I very much appreciate the fact that you are able to argue your points and not just throw out random digs and name-calling. You're to be commended, sir. :D

[Johnnylama]

not just throw out random digs and name-calling.
I wonder who he's talking about? Hmmmm... :)

Is this the guy I should be ignoring ? This post doesn't indicate intelligent responses worth monitoring ...
Yes. Don't ever take the bait.




As for why others love/ hate the U.S., just look at the different opinions inside the U.S. about the U.S. A little less than half of us hate how things are going, and a little more than half like them. The world is bound to have mixed opinions as well.

We're the rich people who live in the nice neighborhood. Some of those rich people appreciate what they have, give to the poor, and work for the betterment of the world, and some of them are self-centered assholes who just want a bigger boat and more coke (to drink and snort). You can love and hate different aspects of the same people.

[weeone]

I wonder who he's talking about? Hmmmm... :)


Yes. Don't ever take the bait.




As for why others love/ hate the U.S., just look at the different opinions inside the U.S. about the U.S. A little less than half of us hate how things are going, and a little more than half like them. The world is bound to have mixed opinions as well.

We're the rich people who live in the nice neighborhood. Some of those rich people appreciate what they have, give to the poor, and work for the betterment of the world, and some of them are self-centered assholes who just want a bigger boat and more coke (to drink and snort). You can love and hate different aspects of the same people.

Wow. Going to have to not include myself in your we.

I live right across the street from a low-income housing project.

And I've read multiple times about posters on here having to drop off because they can't afford to pay their internet bills, despite having good jobs which support their communities.

*Not happy with what this person said. Maybe I don't get the gist. I've been jumping the gun a little today.*

[jd1]

Wow. Going to have to not include myself in your we.

I live right across the street from a low-income housing project.

And I've read multiple times about posters on here having to drop off because they can't afford to pay their internet bills, despite having good jobs which support their communities.

*Not happy with what this person said. Maybe I don't get the gist. I've been jumping the gun a little today.*

Compared to 99% of humanity, you're a rich person.

--JD

[IPrayForSound]

Well, compared to 99% of humanity, I'm funny. That doesn't mean I'm actually funny.

I'm not the rich, either.

[weeone]

Well, compared to 99% of humanity, I'm funny. That doesn't mean I'm actually funny.

I'm not the rich, either.

Thank you jeebus.

I'm rich in love, I suppose ... because I can't afford health insurance and I don't have any retirement. We'll see what social security does for me and my generation. To be a paying citizen of such a rich country, I don't consider myself very rich or feel taken care of. Yes, I see the benefits of not expatriating to urban India, China, or Africa, staying here in the US renting an apartment and getting fat from foods filled with government subsidized corn syrup.

Man, don't you dare act like I have it all, though.

[JSpaceman]

Well, compared to 99% of humanity, I'm funny. That doesn't mean I'm actually funny.

Where the hell did you get tested? I think something was wrong with their funny-meter...

[weeone]

hahahaha Spacey.

[Orville Wrong]

When you strip away all the grave claptrap about "re-writing history," "paying homage," and "abject poverty," all this guy has done is to dress Darwin up in a God suit. A hyperpower's a superpower with stumpy legs and access to the beach.

So evolution is cool for school, but when it comes to geopolitics it's fire and brimstone.

[slow-dog]

I think people hate America because we didn't ratify the Kyoto treaty.

Man, I couldn't even type that and keep a straight face...... :p

[weeone]

A hyperpower's a superpower with stumpy legs and access to the beach.



Ha ! I'll see you down in my signature.

[Handy Smurf]

Thank you jeebus.

I'm rich in love, I suppose ... because I can't afford health insurance and I don't have any retirement. We'll see what social security does for me and my generation. To be a paying citizen of such a rich country, I don't consider myself very rich or feel taken care of. Yes, I see the benefits of not expatriating to urban India, China, or Africa, staying here in the US renting an apartment and getting fat from foods filled with government subsidized corn syrup.

Man, don't you dare act like I have it all, though.

I think what he meant is its all relative
You may not be too well off right now, but well over half the world isn't even dreaming of health insurance or retirement
They also don't have cars, more than one set of clothes/shoes, barely adequate housing if any at all, and making sure they eat one meal a day is a struggle
Then there is another very large population of people that are slightly better off than them, but still much worse off than you
Then there is another large population who are living in what we would consider "poverty" in this country: Shelter, 3 meals a day, heat, maybe a television, maybe a phone if they can afford to keep it on.
Anyone reading this, by virtue of the fact that you have internet access if nothing else, puts you in (estimating) the wealthiest 5% in the world, maybe 10

[weeone]

I think what he meant is its all relative
You may not be too well off right now, but well over half the world isn't even dreaming of health insurance or retirement
They also don't have cars, more than one set of clothes/shoes, barely adequate housing if any at all, and making sure they eat one meal a day is a struggle
Then there is another very large population of people that are slightly better off than them, but still much worse off than you
Then there is another large population who are living in what we would consider "poverty" in this country: Shelter, 3 meals a day, heat, maybe a television, maybe a phone if they can afford to keep it on.
Anyone reading this, by virtue of the fact that you have internet access if nothing else, puts you in (estimating) the wealthiest 5% in the world, maybe 10

All I'm saying is don't be an asshole and assume I don't know that.

A lot more factors in.

*snap*

[Handy Smurf]

aight
(cowering in corner in a puddle of Wee)

[Duemellon]

however, saying "You have it better than so many other people" doesn't really mean shit in most cases.

Yah, I do have it better, but they aren't my "competition". My competition is you. You're the one/w the health insurance that I don't. You're the one getting the job that pays better, has better hours, because I couldn't make the interview. etc. etc.

However, when you want to compare the societies, you're comparing competitors, but comparing individuals in different societies is just an excersize in comparing the societies, not the individuals.

[postfeminist]

blah blah blah america blah blah blah free blah blah blah america blah blah choices blah blah freedom isn't free blah blah blah liberty blah blah blah


:D

[guamie]

blah blah blah america blah blah blah free blah blah blah america blah blah choices blah blah freedom isn't free blah blah blah liberty blah blah blah :DPF, you're awesome. I'd host a bash just because you were coming.

But I digress. And it's off the topic. But what's up with the name calling in these threads?

[Johnnylama]

Wow. Going to have to not include myself in your we.

I live right across the street from a low-income housing project.

And I've read multiple times about posters on here having to drop off because they can't afford to pay their internet bills, despite having good jobs which support their communities.

*Not happy with what this person said. Maybe I don't get the gist. I've been jumping the gun a little today.*

It's a metaphor. Many avaerage Americans look at the rich as most of the world looks at America (we= America). If the world was Cincinnati, America would be Indian Hill (the rich part of town, for those out of towners, which is probably most of you, so the reference is dumb, sorry, long day). The perception of America in most of the world would be like the perception of the rich here at home. Just a metaphor. Sorry if I upset you. I'm rather harmless.
:)

[jd1]

however, saying "You have it better than so many other people" doesn't really mean shit in most cases.

Yah, I do have it better, but they aren't my "competition". My competition is you. You're the one/w the health insurance that I don't. You're the one getting the job that pays better, has better hours, because I couldn't make the interview. etc. etc.

However, when you want to compare the societies, you're comparing competitors, but comparing individuals in different societies is just an excersize in comparing the societies, not the individuals.

Except DUH, the whole topic of this conversation is why people hate the US. One of the reasons is envy, of our apparent wealth in relation to their crippling poverty.

Saying something like "I'm poor because I don't have health insurance" to someone who lives between the rails along an Indonesian railroad and scrounges/begs food every day from a garbage dump is the ugly American personified.

(Not saying that's what anyone was doing here--just trying to tie it back to the whole reason this relative wealth business came up in the first place).

--JD

[Johnnylama]

I want to clarify a little more so I don’t come off bad. This thread is trying to explore the question why other people hate Americans, and I was simply saying that the perception of Americans in the world is probably a lot like how we (meaning “average Americans”) perceive the rich. The rich are powerful, and can seemingly do whatever they want. They can be giving, but also protect the means of their wealth. People generally don’t trust them, but they wouldn’t mind having their clout or power either. I know not all Americans are rich, but in the eyes of the world, Americans live in the world’s “rich neighborhood.” Maybe I misstated my earlier point, but I don’t see what’s wrong with the analogy.

[tobedawg]

Could it be the fact that Americans consume such a large quantity of the World's natural resources? Nah!

It's all about big SUV's, going to McDonalds' and buying food in which half will probably be thrown away, and going to Wal-Mart and demanding the LOWEST price on everything.. The lowest lowest price! I don't care who's hands you have to chop off to get it!! I want the lowest, lowest price! for Clothes at Wal-Mart, for Gas and Oil for my SUV, and on my BIG SUPER SIZE Super Value Meal At McDonalds.. I'm an American! I'm Entitled!!

[postfeminist]

PF, you're awesome. I'd host a bash just because you were coming.

But I digress. And it's off the topic. But what's up with the name calling in these threads?

thanks...i think you're awesome too! :)

[weezer6]

Could it be the fact that Americans consume such a large quantity of the World's natural resources? Nah!

It's all about big SUV's, going to McDonalds' and buying food in which half will probably be thrown away, and going to Wal-Mart and demanding the LOWEST price on everything.. The lowest lowest price! I don't care who's hands you have to chop off to get it!! I want the lowest, lowest price! for Clothes at Wal-Mart, for Gas and Oil for my SUV, and on my BIG SUPER SIZE Super Value Meal At McDonalds.. I'm an American! I'm Entitled!!
this is funny, because i've actually loaded up the family in the SUV, taken everyone to mcd's for breakfast, then driven across the street to get groceries at the super walmart.

these are all the easy targets, but like i said, we're all greedy and want what we want when we want it.

[Duemellon]

these are all the easy targets, but like i said, we're all greedy and want what we want when we want it.wanting what you want when you want it isn't the definition of greed. Wanting what others have at their expense is greed. Wanting the entire pie when you don't need the entire pie is greed.

Saying it's "what you want when you want it" oversimplifies the process and masks the direct result: That others go without so you can have an abundance.

[weezer6]

that's all fine and dandy, but villifying (sp?) people who eat at mcd's, shop walmart or drive an suv is weak, in my opinion. big corporations make the x-box and playstation 2, and shitloads of people have them, and they are definitely a luxury item. americans consume the shit out of them, and it must be at someone's expense. but where's the bashing? playstation is fun, so they aren't going to get much bashing.

we could dissect everyone's purchasing habits, and the decisions behind them, and what we'd come up with is that we all support the american greed machine in one way or the other. at least those of us checking out this board on our computers with high speed access. those with dial up, you're fighting the good fight.

[Duemellon]

...we all support the american greed machine in one way or the other.but owning stuff isn't inheirently a sign of greed. Greed is only present when it fits the formula of:

Others go without so you can have an abundance.

It's not the PS2 that is the greed, it could be a side effect, a result, or manifestation, of the result of greed, but it's the money you took over "so-n-so" that is the greed. It's the power/resource that you survive on while taking it from another.

You snatching an abandoned breadcrumb from the street in Los Angeles does not mean you're greedy unless there was someone, right there, who needed it or someone you had access to. The starving children of Tehran can't do a thing with that breadcrumb you just snatched up even if you didn't snatch it up.

[Handy Smurf]

Could it be the fact that Americans consume such a large quantity of the World's natural resources? Nah!

It's all about big SUV's, going to McDonalds' and buying food in which half will probably be thrown away, and going to Wal-Mart and demanding the LOWEST price on everything.. The lowest lowest price! I don't care who's hands you have to chop off to get it!! I want the lowest, lowest price! for Clothes at Wal-Mart, for Gas and Oil for my SUV, and on my BIG SUPER SIZE Super Value Meal At McDonalds.. I'm an American! I'm Entitled!!
you buys clothes at Wal Mart....eewww!

[weezer6]

but owning stuff isn't inheirently a sign of greed. Greed is only present when it fits the formula of:

Others go without so you can have an abundance.

aren't the "others" in this statement other countries, third world countries? and the "you" is america? we definitely have an abundance, the question is, does it help other countries or hurt them? does a sony plant in china, or honduras help or hurt that particular country and its people?

[Duemellon]

aren't the "others" in this statement other countries, third world countries? and the "you" is america? we definitely have an abundance, the question is, does it help other countries or hurt them? does a sony plant in china, or honduras help or hurt that particular country and its people?It depends on if we're hording resources or sharing them.

A plant in Honduras is not inheirently evil.

[jd1]

It depends on if we're hording resources or sharing them.

A plant in Honduras is not inheirently evil.

It is if it manufactures Cobra Terror-Dromes.

--JD

[weezer6]

It depends on if we're hording resources or sharing them.

A plant in Honduras is not inheirently evil.

this is why i don't necessarily think of walmart as evil. they drive prices down, which sends business overseas. to some degree, it lets other countries benefit from our consumption. sure, wages aren't the same, but it's a start. the world eye is keeping watch on labor practices, so you probably aren't going to find huge atrocities, as you may have in the past in plants abroad.

using overseas suppliers hurts the american citizen the most, but if you think about it, how bad does it really hurt? like others have said, our poor are fat a lot of the time (there are always exceptions). some are lazy. there are jobs everywhere, just not necessarily the job you want. we can all survive working at walmart, or a fast food joint, we just aren't going to be living high on the hog. so when a plant in america closes down, be happy for the dudes in sri lanka who might get an improvement in their level of life with their new plant and new job.

[Duemellon]

be happy for the dudes in sri lanka who might get an improvement in their level of life with their new plant and new job.Well, I'm not happy/w that b/c I know we're withholdin from them. Sure, we were withholding everythin from them previously, but we're still takin advantage of them.

They'r bettr off than if we weren't there, but we shouldn't b proud of that slight incremental increase to their lifestyle, we could do bettr.

& yes, JD1, that would be using it for evil.

[weeone]

It's a metaphor. Many avaerage Americans look at the rich as most of the world looks at America (we= America). If the world was Cincinnati, America would be Indian Hill (the rich part of town, for those out of towners, which is probably most of you, so the reference is dumb, sorry, long day). The perception of America in most of the world would be like the perception of the rich here at home. Just a metaphor. Sorry if I upset you. I'm rather harmless.
:)

You didn't upset me, kitten. Well, maybe for a few seconds I thought you were pretty retarded, but it passed ! :) Go about your business.

*Gets out of here. This is becoming one of those threads.*

[jd1]

& yes, JD1, that would be using it for evil.

I'll buy that.

--JD

[Johnnylama]

You didn't upset me, kitten. Well, maybe for a few seconds I thought you were pretty retarded, but it passed ! :) Go about your business.

*Gets out of here. This is becoming one of those threads.*

The PC term is "with retardation." :D



====

Just a thought: one of the reasons our poor people are fat is because of the poor quality of our cheap foods, not because they’re all lazy. Sure, they’re better off than those poor people in Chad, but they’re not necessarily on easy street or anything.

My biggest concern in America is the growing trend of increased social stratification. If the rich get too rich and the poor get too poor, that's trouble. Therefore, losing American jobs to other countries does concern me greatly. Even the rich part of town has its problems.

[Wondertastic]

it's interesting how many of these posts have centered around america's consumerism and issues on an individual citizen's level. the thread title reads why do people hate america, not why do people hate americans.

i don't think most people hate americans per se. i think they do hate what our foreign policy has become.

[Duemellon]

i don't think most people hate americans per se. i think they do hate what our foreign policy has become.uhm,...
You're American & I hate you.

[Wondertastic]

uhm,...
You're American & I hate you.

hence, the reason i put the word "most" in my post.

double points for rhyming.

[Duemellon]

hence, the reason i put the word "most" in my post.

double points for rhyming.u can't award urself POINT!!!! damn man, u hav no sense of decorum.

-1 point for... being...

Wonderspastic!!! : P

childish enough? U'r comin to karaoke tonight right? We'll settle this like real men... in a Prince "singoff"!!!

[Wondertastic]

u can't award urself POINT!!!! damn man, u hav no sense of decorum.

is decorum latin for something?

i'll be there. although, i'm going to have to condede on prince. i couldn't pull that off. unless i had the new revolution backing me up.

[jd1]

Yes, Latin for "decorum."

Due, +1 point for dead language use.

--JD

[Johnnylama]

Yes, Latin for "decorum."

Due, +1 point for dead language use.

--JD
+1 to jd1 for capitalizing "Latin."

[JSpaceman]

Due, +1 point for dead language use.

--JD
If he's using it, it's not dead, is it? :p

[weeone]

decorum is a totally current word.

Oops. I said I was leaving this thread.

[Handy Smurf]

The PC term is "with retardation." :D



====

Just a thought: one of the reasons our poor people are fat is because of the poor quality of our cheap foods, not because they’re all lazy. Sure, they’re better off than those poor people in Chad, but they’re not necessarily on easy street or anything.

My biggest concern in America is the growing trend of increased social stratification. If the rich get too rich and the poor get too poor, that's trouble. Therefore, losing American jobs to other countries does concern me greatly. Even the rich part of town has its problems.
Not true at all about our cheap food, the average American wastes so much money on name brand products and non-storebought food(going to McDonalds, etc.). When I was little, my family wasn't poverty stricken but we were very hard up for money. But because my parents recognized the merits of fiduciary responsibility, we got by just fine. This meant buying name brand nothing-clothes, shoes, food, toys and coupon/bargain shopping to the Nth degree. That was just the start.
The fact is, though, you can go to the store and by rice (a staple in almost all impoverished countries) or pasta and many other items to make yourself a modest, healthy meal, and it is probably the cheapest option available to you. I used to go to Big Lots here in Cincy when I was participating in a canned food drive. You could get 3 boxes of pasta for a freakin dollar there.
Many people live irresponsibly in our country in any number of ways. Trying to remove the blame here doesn't make sense.

[JSpaceman]

decorum is a totally current word.

Oops. I said I was leaving this thread.
Liar! Sheesh- use a little decorum, would you? :D

[Johnnylama]

Not true at all about our cheap food, the average American wastes so much money on name brand products and non-storebought food(going to McDonalds, etc.). When I was little, my family wasn't poverty stricken but we were very hard up for money. But because my parents recognized the merits of fiduciary responsibility, we got by just fine. This meant buying name brand nothing-clothes, shoes, food, toys and coupon/bargain shopping to the Nth degree. That was just the start.
The fact is, though, you can go to the store and by rice (a staple in almost all impoverished countries) or pasta and many other items to make yourself a modest, healthy meal, and it is probably the cheapest option available to you. I used to go to Big Lots here in Cincy when I was participating in a canned food drive. You could get 3 boxes of pasta for a freakin dollar there.
Many people live irresponsibly in our country in any number of ways. Trying to remove the blame here doesn't make sense.

I'm not talking about the average American; I'm talking about the poor-REALLY poor. There is a strong statistical link between poverty and obesity. Here's a link to information. (http://www.sirc.org/articles/poverty_and_obesity.shtml)
"Unlike the alleged effect of food advertising, the impact of social inequalities on levels of obesity can be measured, and it is very substantial — the largest single factor that has so far been identified. Despite this, it receives scant attention in the media."
"'"This is not rocket science. Poor health is a well-known feature of deprivation. Mothers are not daft and they do know fat and crisps are bad for children but they can't afford the alternative. ... Initiatives are not going to change anything unless you've got the cash in your pocket. If you buy a salad at Sainsbury's, it's still very expensive.'"
"'A lot of people are on benefits, living from week to week, relying on convenience foods and eating out of the chippy. Give people jobs and the ability to be masters of their own destinies and they will make healthy decisions about their lives.'"

Here's more. (http://frac.org/html/hunger_in_the_us/hunger&obesity.htm)

"For many households, the lack of money can contribute to both hunger and obesity. This apparent paradox is driven in part by the economics of buying food.

Households without money to buy enough food often have to rely on cheaper, high calorie foods to cope with limited money for food and stave off hunger. Families try to maximize caloric intake for each dollar spent, which can lead to over consumption of calories and a less healthful diet."

Here's even more. (http://www.centeronhunger.org/execsums/obesity.html)
"Even as childhood obesity rates are on the rise, the latest federal data on food security finds that 14 million American children live in homes where there is not always enough food to eat. This apparent paradox has led some analysts to misconstrue the trends, arguing that childhood obesity is greatest among poor children; thus, they cannot be hungry. This report examines the latest data on hunger and obesity among children. "

Basically, low quality food is cheap and available, while high quality food is expensive and harder to find; therefore, paradoxically, the poor get fat. The statistical trend is strong enough to overide the "bad choices" argument.

[Duemellon]

The fact is, though, you can go to the store and by rice (a staple in almost all impoverished countries) or pasta and many other items to make yourself a modest, healthy meal, and it is probably the cheapest option available to you.wordup yo!

I mean, fruit costs less than meat.

A pound of beef costs the same as 1 microwave pizza.

6 cans of black/red beans costs less than a Combo #1 meal

Eating right is cheap & you're raised in a society where "good food is sweet/fatty". There are many cultures on equatorial lands that can't stand our foods because they like spices, not sweets, or fattitudes. I mean, really, the amount of 'mericanization that happens to the ethnic foods that are sold in our resturaunts makes you wonder how they (the originators) cook it wrong when you visit them.I'm not talking about the average American; I'm talking about the poor-REALLY poor.yo, forreal, those people are "bunk". Really, as I noted above, it's cheaper to eat healthier. I know this because I was one broke-ass mofo after 2001 for 1 1/2 years without a job. Trust me, it's cheaper.

Rice is cheaper than sugar.

[postfeminist]

i chipped a tooth today.

[weezer6]

i gotta go with due on this one. i didn't hit all the links posted by johnnylama, but to get fat on high calorie food means you still need to eat it, right? we must be giving them too much money to spend on food, if they are relying on assistance. they may not be lazy, but it sounds like they may not be too bright, either.

my parents were pretty poor, but they didn't get any, or i guess want any, assistance. we ate pot pies and applesauce, alot. tuna casserole (bag of noodles, 2 cans of cream of mushroom soup, 1 can tuna), mac and cheese, canned veggies and salads. pop? never saw the shit on our dinner table until my teens. potato chips, get outta here. mcdonald's? once in a blue moon, and we each got a cheeseburger and split the fries.

in my opinion, if you're poor, and you're fat, you aren't managing your funds correctly. if you slack off on food, you might have more towards other things. when i see a family of 300 pounders, kids included, paying for a shopping cart full of microwave dinners, pop, and potato chips with food stamps, i just shake my head.

[Johnnylama]

Check the research. Anecdotal evidence is one thing, but national poverty and obesity statistics are something else. This is a huge myth! I'm talking about people who are barely getting by. Check the stats!


Also, a lot of these people honestly have no clue about nutrition. We do a really poor job of nutrition education in this country. There's a huge body (haha) of research about this.

[Duemellon]

No, it's not! Check the research. Anecdotal evidence is one thing,God, I hate pulling this card because it sounds like I'm trying to be untouchable, but really man, I did it. I was there. I was poor as fuck.

Food was a concern, I could barely afford the off brand shit, so I stopped buying Kool Aid, stopped buying cheese, shit like that. No joke man, I'm talking about me. I could go down the list of stuff but go to your Kroger's & do the research 1st hand, you'll see a 5lb bag of rice costs as much as one snack pack case of Jello pudding pops.Also, a lot of these people honestly have no clue about nutrition. We do a really poor job of nutrition education in this country. There's a huge body (haha) of research about this.I'll agree on that, but I will say that their priority isn't nutrition. You could explain the information clear as day but they don't care about that, they're focusing on other stuff.

Idunno what that other stuff is, but for me it was "when am I gonna get a job" or "is dude/dudette gonna pay me in time to have rent?" and "Who can I borrow/fenangle for 5 bucks before tomorow?" and "Gas/Electric, phone, or car insurance... hmmm..."

[classicgrrl]

Except DUH, the whole topic of this conversation is why people hate the US. One of the reasons is envy, of our apparent wealth in relation to their crippling poverty.

--JD


or that we got our wealth by forcing them into crippling poverty.

just a thought.

America has become a metaphor for everything that is wrong with the world.

[classicgrrl]

in my opinion, if you're poor, and you're fat, you aren't managing your funds correctly.

my opinion is if you're poor and you're fat you're buying whats cheap.

ever bought fresh vegetables and fruits in a common Krogers? stuff is highly expensive. And Due, it depends on how you define healthy....

high fructose corn syrup = the working poor's calorie.

[weezer6]

my opinion is if you're poor and you're fat you're buying whats cheap.

ever bought fresh vegetables and fruits in a common Krogers? stuff is highly expensive.

high fructose corn syrup = the working poor's calorie.

canned veggies aren't expensive, especially if you buy meijer brand. there are plenty of cheap, fatty foods, too, and they probably taste better than a can of peas.

what i'm saying is, something should click. "hey, i don't have money for shoes for my kids, but somehow i weigh 200 lbs, and never really feel hungry, maybe i need to adjust some things."

[the-dude]

Far
We’ve been travelling far
Without a home
But not without a star

Free
Only want to be free
We huddle close
Hang on to a dream

On the boats and on the planes
They’re coming to america
Never looking back again
They’re coming to america

Home, don’t it seem so far away
Oh, we’re travelling light today
In the eye of the storm
In the eye of the storm

Home, to a new and a shiny place
Make our bed, and we’ll say grace
Freedom’s light burning warm
Freedom’s light burning warm

Everywhere around the world
They’re coming to america
Every time that flag’s unfurled
They’re coming to america

Got a dream to take them there
They’re coming to america
Got a dream they’ve come to share
They’re coming to america

They’re coming to america
They’re coming to america
They’re coming to america
They’re coming to america
Today, today, today, today, today

My country ’tis of thee
(today)
Sweet land of liberty
(today)
Of thee I sing
(today)
Of thee I sing
(today)

[Duemellon]

my opinion is if you're poor and you're fat you're buying whats cheap.

ever bought fresh vegetables and fruits in a common Krogers?Dolly Madison Donuts = $3.00, feeds 2 ppl, maybe 3. About 1 lb of food.

2 lb of apples = $1.99 or less?

5 lb of rice = $2 or less?

1 lb of beef = $4

Coke/Pepsi 12 pack = $5

64oz OJ 2/$5

Water?

[classicgrrl]

Far
We’ve been travelling far
Without a home
But not without a star

Free
Only want to be free
We huddle close
Hang on to a dream

On the boats and on the planes
They’re coming to america
Never looking back again
They’re coming to america

Home, don’t it seem so far away
Oh, we’re travelling light today
In the eye of the storm
In the eye of the storm

Home, to a new and a shiny place
Make our bed, and we’ll say grace
Freedom’s light burning warm
Freedom’s light burning warm

Everywhere around the world
They’re coming to america
Every time that flag’s unfurled
They’re coming to america

Got a dream to take them there
They’re coming to america
Got a dream they’ve come to share
They’re coming to america

They’re coming to america
They’re coming to america
They’re coming to america
They’re coming to america
Today, today, today, today, today

My country ’tis of thee
(today)
Sweet land of liberty
(today)
Of thee I sing
(today)
Of thee I sing
(today)

??
quoting a poorly written song by a man who sold out forever ago and never advanced his skills is doing what exactly?

due - starch is cheap. fresh veggies and fruit are not. you are welcome to go grocery shopping with me tonight at midnight and find out for yourself. I buy them once a month every month.

[jd1]

or that we got our wealth by forcing them into crippling poverty.

just a thought.

America has become a metaphor for everything that is wrong with the world.

Like I said--people hate America out of ignorance.

--JD

[the-dude]

??
quoting a poorly written song by a man who sold out forever ago and never advanced his skills is doing what exactly?

Umm, me goofing off. I didnt know this was a deadly serious conversation, my apoligies.

[weezer6]

the real reason we're hated is because lance kicks everyone's ass in the tour de france. that really pisses off europeans, at least.

[classicgrrl]

Umm, me goofing off. I didnt know this was a deadly serious conversation, my apoligies.

sorry, as I've stated before. I don't get jokes.

[classicgrrl]

Like I said--people hate America out of ignorance.

--JD

no I was being serious. America IS a metaphor for everything thats wrong with the world.

[weeone]

??
quoting a poorly written song by a man who sold out forever ago and never advanced his skills is doing what exactly?

due - starch is cheap. fresh veggies and fruit are not. you are welcome to go grocery shopping with me tonight at midnight and find out for yourself. I buy them once a month every month.

Fresh vegetables and fruits and simple foods are expensive, but they should be a priority. If you can't afford them, then reprioritization is in order. Food is very important - if it has to be, it should be the largest part of your weekly budget. I buy veggies two or three times a week. Mark just went to whole foods and stocked up on baby tomatoes, avocados, lettuce, carrots, peppers, cilantro, apple juice, water, and simple tortillas without all the crap that is in the ones you find at Kroger, and the bill was $30. That's pretty effed up, but that's how we eat. On the otherhand, I'm looking at this coat on Urban Outfitters.com thinking that maybe I'll just eat white castle for a month so I can afford it. Viva les USA.

Gall dammit. How did I get back in here.

[classicgrrl]

Fresh vegetables and fruits and simple foods are expensive, but they should be a priority. If you can't afford them, then reprioritization is in order. Food is very important - if it has to be, it should be the largest part of your weekly budget. I buy veggies two or three times a week. Mark just went to whole foods and stocked up on baby tomatoes, avocados, lettuce, carrots, peppers, cilantro, apple juice, water, and simple tortillas without all the crap that is in the ones you find at Kroger, and the bills was $30. That's pretty effed up, but that's how we eat. On the otherhand, I'm looking at this coat on Urban Outfitters.com thinking that maybe I'll just eat white castle for a month so I can afford it. Viva les USA.

What in hell is a weekly budget? I have a monthly budget. (although, maybe you could call it a weekly budget because I now get paid once a week instead of once every two weeks.)

[weeone]

What in hell is a weekly budget? I have a monthly budget. (although, maybe you could call it a weekly budget because I now get paid once a week instead of once every two weeks.)

I have a weekly budget of $10/day. I mean, it translates to a monthly budget of course, but for my dumb ass, I will run out of money if I don't make it a daily term.

[Handy Smurf]

??
quoting a poorly written song by a man who sold out forever ago and never advanced his skills is doing what exactly?

due - starch is cheap. fresh veggies and fruit are not. you are welcome to go grocery shopping with me tonight at midnight and find out for yourself. I buy them once a month every month.
Due is absolutely right. Fresh fruits and veggies arent terribly cheap, but the point is that many people who are poor and overweight arent that way because they are forced to buy cheap food that is also bad for them. Starches are good for you, just not in excess. I would think that someone who is on a very limited budget would be trying to stretch their food as far as possible and not be hogging down on the rice or pasta.
Fruits and Vegetables are a bit pricey, but its a fact that American people do not eat well. I totally agree with whoever said, most people in this country are not only ignorant about nutrition, but they dont care to know anything about it. I usually don't try to generalize, but I would imagine that out of every 5 people who are "poor" in this country, 3 or 4 of them-when they go to the grocery- could put enough sodapop, namebrand cereal, chips and cookies, poptarts, and other unhealthy things back to be able to afford a months supply of fruits and vegetables and have money left over.

[classicgrrl]

Due is absolutely right. Fresh fruits and veggies arent terribly cheap, but the point is that many people who are poor and overweight arent that way because they are forced to buy cheap food that is also bad for them. Starches are good for you, just not in excess. I would think that someone who is on a very limited budget would be trying to stretch their food as far as possible and not be hogging down on the rice or pasta.
Fruits and Vegetables are a bit pricey, but its a fact that American people do not eat well. I totally agree with whoever said, most people in this country are not only ignorant about nutrition, but they dont care to know anything about it. I usually don't try to generalize, but I would imagine that out of every 5 people who are "poor" in this country, 3 or 4 of them-when they go to the grocery- could put enough sodapop, namebrand cereal, chips and cookies, poptarts, and other unhealthy things back to be able to afford a months supply of fruits and vegetables and have money left over.

eh.
*shrug*

not my problem anyway...

[Johnnylama]

Classic and Wee are right here. Due, were you really eating very healthy when you were poor? Maybe better than before because you cut out sweets and fun food, but I doubt your diet was all that healthy. Jell-o, pudding pops and cheese aren’t that healthy, so cutting them out might have upgraded your diet, but you still probably weren’t healthy while poor. Did you get 3-5 servings of fresh fruits and vegetables? Were you eating whole grain bread? Low fat poultry? Low sodium and fat content? Probably not. It sounds like you were going for straight up calorie cost. That’s my point. The poor eat like crap because it’s all they can afford. I’m not talking about the lower class people who fill their carts up with chips and ice cream or even go to McDonalds. I’m talking about people in the situation you described, people with multiple kids to feed too. Here are a few examples of what I’m talking about:

Canned and frozen vegetables cost more than fresh and have less nutritional value
Low quality bread is cheaper than whole wheat (real whole wheat- more than 3 grams of fiber per serving- wheat doesn’t mean whole wheat- check the label)
All the cheap spaghetti sauces contains a ton of sugar and sodium
Almost anything canned has a ton of sodium
Higher fat ground beef is cheaper than lower fat
Many of the poor buy whole milk because of the extra calories even though it contains a ton of saturated fat
Poultry with skin and bone is cheaper than the skinless and boneless
Low sodium/ low fat anything costs more than normal (tuna is like double) or the container is smaller
Frozen fish sticks vs. unbreaded fish fillets- no comparison.
How cheap are hot dogs and bologna compared to deli meats? No comparison.
Whole grain pasta costs twice as much as the normal stuff
100% juice products are usually twice as much as the watered down juice drinks next to them on the shelf
Organic anything costs a ton more
Soy? Fork over the $
Anything containing trans fats has a longer shelf life, and is therefore cheaper
If they do ever eat out, fast food is cheaper than other restraints, and lower quality food.

Here in America, we enhance cheap, low quality tasteless food with sugar, sodium and preservatives. Eating right costs a lot of money, and most people, especially the poor, don’t bother and aren’t well informed about their diets. Companies spend millions to package crap to look and taste great, health be damned. Many urban poor can’t even get to a decent grocery store. They eat whatever is near- fast food, quickie mart, whatever. Like in other areas, the poor have to live off the scraps of everyone else. Could the poor ever afford a gym membership? No way! Many don’t have the money for hobbies or much of anything else, so they sit at home and watch t.v. Now, I’m not saying there aren’t irresponsible and lazy poor people, but there are irrisponsible and lazy rich people too. At least the rich and middle have options about what they can afford to eat. The poor do not.

[tobedawg]

I can understand your point JohnnyLama, but my dietary experience is similar to Due's or Weezer6's as a youngster..

My parents were VERY poor and my mom supported the family on her income from working a Retail job.. BUT, she always made sure we ate a healthy breakfast complete with Cereal or eggs and toast, and a big glass of Orange Juice.. When I was a kid, I used to beg my mom to buy fastfood, and she would only once a month on payday, otherwise, it was a healthy breakfast, a school lunch (I qualified for Free lunch), and for dinner a meat dish, a vegetable, and either potatoes or rice..

If we ate Twinkees or drank Soda, it was only considered a "treat".. We had dessert about 3 times a week after dinner..

[weeone]

I can understand your point JohnnyLama, but my dietary experience is similar to Due's or Weezer6's as a youngster..

My parents were VERY poor and my mom supported the family on her income from working a Retail job.. BUT, she always made sure we ate a healthy breakfast complete with Cereal or eggs and toast, and a big glass of Orange Juice.. When I was a kid, I used to beg my mom to buy fastfood, and she would only once a month on payday, otherwise, it was a healthy breakfast, a school lunch (I qualified for Free lunch), and for dinner a meat dish, a vegetable, and either potatoes or rice..

If we ate Twinkees or drank Soda, it was only considered a "treat".. We had dessert about 3 times a week after dinner..

We NEVER got fastfood. Maybe after a softball game or something. It was so rare. And coke and stuff ? As if. We seriously just had milk and juice in the fridge. We always had ice cream or something for dessert though. Thank heavens for my parents' sweet tooths :)

[Duemellon]

I was so poor I made my own spaghetti sauce, bread, & split Kool Aid packets over several gallons using flavor additives. I have 4 different recipes for beans & rice: mexican, asian, chili, & pilaf, that I made up to make beans & rice that much more interesting & added about 2 more (chicken & italian come to mind).

Potatos were teh b0mb baby, if u took those away from me I pretty much starved.

I basically bcame a vegetarian for all intents & purposes, instead of meat I spent my "fancy grocery $" on mushrooms & cooking wine.

I ate more healthy b/c I wasn't eatin fast food. I ate better b/c I was makin things like turkey tetrazinni, homemade breads (my garlic/focaccia was teh sh!t), this bruschetta-ish roasted chicken dish, learned how to make taco mix from scratch (not using any packets), but I found employment bfore I figured out how to make my own salsa.

[postfeminist]

but I found employment bfore I figured out how to make my own salsa.

i guess it's good that you got a job, but homemade salsa is teh bomb.

[Johnnylama]

I ate more healthy b/c I wasn't eatin fast food. I ate better b/c I was makin things like turkey tetrazinni, homemade breads (my garlic/focaccia was teh sh!t), this bruschetta-ish roasted chicken dish, learned how to make taco mix from scratch (not using any packets), but I found employment bfore I figured out how to make my own salsa.

So cutting out fast food was the big improvement. Poverty caused a lifestyle change for you. It's not that cheaper food is healthier, but you stopped buying expensive crappy food.

Look at the research. Come on, we're reality based thinkers, remember?! : )

Here's a report from the U.N. (http://www.undp.org/fojam/obesity_speech.htm)
"Current research on obesity now seems to focus on socioeconomic factors as a primary cause of this dangerous disease and empirical evidence suggests that poor people are the highest risk of becoming obese. This is largely because those living below or close to the poverty line usually have poor standards of living. Arguably their state of poverty deprives them from having a stable diet."

"The correlation between poverty and obesity is not new. And the notion that obesity is only attributable to biological or cultural factors can no longer be accepted in this post modern era, given its strong links to socioeconomic status. Therefore, the eradication of poverty especially in poor countries is a major goal in the prevention and control of obesity."

[weeone]

homemade salsa (enough for two):

1 vine ripened tomatoes (never refridgerated)
.5 green peppers
.5 jalepeno peppers
.25 onions
.5 stalk of celery
.25 t salt
.25 (or more)t cumin
handful cilantro leaves all chopped up
.5 limes
shots of tabasco

Super yummy. Sometimes I add olive oil dependind on the venue.

Taco seasoning is simple too - good point Due. And it doesn't have a crap load of emulsifiers etc in it. Oregano, paprika, red chili powder, cumin, salt, sugar, pepper, and corn starch (depending). It's weird that that's all it is, but we've begun using this with ground turkey breast, and it's really spectacular. Very lean.

Once you learn to cook, you can stop eating all the processed crap in stores that is so bad for you. But again, Due raises another good point - generally the unemployed are the only ones with all the time to prepare good meals. It's such an effed up cycle.

[Homsar]

I think the pricing just has to do with processing.
More work involved with a food's production leads to higher consumer costs at the purchase. Why else would fresh corn cost less than frozen?
Convenience comes at a price.
Now if people need to put more work into foods to make them "healthy," this would explain why they are so expensive.
This is part of why I think it's not what you eat, but rather how you eat and live.
Let's say you eat a BigMac.

McDONALD'S BIG MAC Hamburger
Serving size: 1.0 item(s) (216.0 g)
Nutrition Facts
Calories: 590.00 | Calories from fat: 306.00
Fat 34.00 g
Cholesterol 85.00 mg
Saturated fat 11.00 g
Sodium 1,090.00 mg
Carbohydrate 47.00 g
Sugar 8.00 g
Dietary fiber 3.00 g
Protein 24.00 g
Key vitamins and minerals
Vitamin A 300.00 IU
Vitamin C 3.60 mg
Folate 0.00 µg
Calcium 300.00 mg
Iron 4.50 mg
Potassium 430.00 mg
Vitamin D (IU) 16.00 mg
Phosphorus 254.00 mg

Now one can continue eating their fries and drinking their Coke, but they really don't need to eat much else for the entire remainder of the day!
Sure, the Big Mac takes care of all the fat and cholesterol you could ever need in a day (well, we don't really need to ingest ANY cholesterol at all), but it also has all those vitamins, minerals, protein, and fiber.
One could easily eat a Big Mac every day and still live a healthy life.

Ah, but what about "Supersize Me," you ask, smirkingly.
Well, that guy ate Mickey D's EVERY MEAL of every day for a month!
Of COURSE that would be unhealthy.
If he had only been a little more moderate with the Mac, he would have experienced better results.

Now make your arguments about genetics and metabolism and I'll get back to y'all.

[weeone]

I think the pricing just has to do with processing.
More work involved with a food's production leads to higher consumer costs at the purchase. Why else would fresh corn cost less than frozen?
Convenience comes at a price.
Now if people need to put more work into foods to make them "healthy," this would explain why they are so expensive.
This is part of why I think it's not what you eat, but rather how you eat and live.
Let's say you eat a BigMac.



Now one can continue eating their fries and drinking their Coke, but they really don't need to eat much else for the entire remainder of the day!
Sure, the Big Mac takes care of all the fat and cholesterol you could ever need in a day (well, we don't really need to ingest ANY cholesterol at all), but it also has all those vitamins, minerals, protein, and fiber.
One could easily eat a Big Mac every day and still live a healthy life.

Ah, but what about "Supersize Me," you ask, smirkingly.
Well, that guy ate Mickey D's EVERY MEAL of every day for a month!
Of COURSE that would be unhealthy.
If he had only been a little more moderate with the Mac, he would have experienced better results.

Now make your arguments about genetics and metabolism and I'll get back to y'all.


This is a really good point. There is a book called French Women Don't Get Fat, and the purpose is to show the discontinuity between French dietary habits and their lean figures, and it's all in lifestyle. Walking as a form of transportation, for example, is just another part of the day in France. Drinking alcohol in moderation (*ahem* looks the other way) is another difference... It's all about balance - which in my 27 years of observations Americans seem to lack. I know I do.

[DaHood]

Drinking alcohol in moderation (*ahem* looks the other way)
*crawls under the table*

[weezer6]

i knocked out 2 filet-o-fishes, a fry and 2 pops today. nobody made me do it, and if i was actually poor, i wouldn't be able to keep up with the cost involved to eat such a meal frequently. if a supposed poor person can eat fast food frequently, they aren't what i consider to be that poor. eating fast food is a luxury, as far as i'm concerned. nobody makes you do it.

[Duemellon]

It's not that cheaper food is healthier, but you stopped buying expensive crappy food.exactly.

So what can one derive from this? It's not the expense of healthy food but inexperience to what is good for u.

Poverty & education r often related.

[Johnnylama]

I think the pricing just has to do with processing.
More work involved with a food's production leads to higher consumer costs at the purchase. Why else would fresh corn cost less than frozen?
Convenience comes at a price.
Now if people need to put more work into foods to make them "healthy," this would explain why they are so expensive.

This is true, but also think about shelf life. A can of something can sit on a shelf forever and not go bad, so it can be cheap. Something fresh (like corn or meat) won't last as long, so the store might have to throw some out if it goes bad before they sell it, so it costs more.

Processing can make stuff cheaper too. Transfats increase shelf life, but they're probably the worst fat you can eat. "Processed" flour in cheap bread is cheaper than whole grain wheat, so cheap, low fiber bread is cheaper than whole grain high fiber bread.

Sure, the Big Mac ... has all those vitamins, minerals, protein, and fiber.
One could easily eat a Big Mac every day and still live a healthy life.

Wait, are you kidding?!?!
Here is the recommended daily nutritional intake. (http://www.netrition.com/rdi_page.html)

Big Mac a day!?!?! AAA!!! NO NO NO!!! :)
That's only about 1/4 of your cals for the day, but 1/2 the sodium, more than 1/2 the fat, more than 1/2 of the saturated fat, 1/8 of the fiber, hardly any vitamins, etc. Ick! Ick!

Man, I want a tofu discount on my health insurance. :)

[Johnnylama]

So what can one derive from this? It's not the expense of healthy food but inexperience to what is good for u.

Poverty & education r often related.

It's both. A person can eat poorly or moderately well on a low income if they do their homework and work at it, but they can really eat well (or poorly) on a higher income. The poor have fewer options. The rich have more. A poor person who cares can do okay, but a rich person can do well. Both can eat like crap if they want to THEREFORE...

... The research CLEARLY shows a strong link between poverty and obesity! Science damnit! Science! I'm right I'm right I'm right! :D :D :D

[weezer6]

... The research CLEARLY shows a strong link between poverty and obesity! Science damnit! Science! I'm right I'm right I'm right! :D :D :D

does science prove this link worldwide, or just here in the u.s.?

[Johnnylama]

i knocked out 2 filet-o-fishes, a fry and 2 pops today. nobody made me do it, and if i was actually poor, i wouldn't be able to keep up with the cost involved to eat such a meal frequently. if a supposed poor person can eat fast food frequently, they aren't what i consider to be that poor. eating fast food is a luxury, as far as i'm concerned. nobody makes you do it.
Holy crap. I don't want to digress in to a discussion of health care costs, but good lord, please stop eating like that! My premiums are high enough without your future bypass operation on my bill. :D :D

[Johnnylama]

does science prove this link worldwide, or just here in the u.s.?
Worldwide. Check out my U.N. link earlier.

Edited to add: Okay, at least the western hem. More than just the u.s.

[weezer6]

Holy crap. I don't want to digress in to a discussion of health care costs, but good lord, please stop eating like that! My premiums are high enough without your future bypass operation on my bill. :D :D

i'm getting my last few junk food fixes before i start running and biking again. i tore up some skyline last night.

[Handy Smurf]

My only problem with your assertion is I can't help but think you're trying to pull the victim card out here for the poor and obese
Personal responsibility man, thats my mantra-and you can be an alcoholic, cigarette smoking 350 pound cat, as long as you arent crying wolf and suing various corporations between every bite, gulp, and inhale.

[weeone]

My only problem with your assertion is I can't help but think you're trying to pull the victim card out here for the poor and obese
Personal responsibility man, thats my mantra-and you can be an alcoholic, cigarette smoking 350 pound cat, as long as you arent crying wolf and suing various corporations between every bite, gulp, and inhale.

I'll agree with personal responsibility to some extent. I had a friend who would mutter "there is no excuse for that !" when she saw someone who was morbidly obese. I just can't imagine that anyone would do that on purpose. Once it gets out of control, it's like any other malady, like an infected tooth, or ingrown toenail, or bronchial infection. It was ignored/not treated in the early stages and now it's a sickness and must be treated as such ? Ah well, the thread is getting seriously derailed now.

[Johnnylama]

My only problem with your assertion is I can't help but think you're trying to pull the victim card out here for the poor and obese
Personal responsibility man, thats my mantra-and you can be an alcoholic, cigarette smoking 350 pound cat, as long as you arent crying wolf and suing various corporations between every bite, gulp, and inhale.

Well, he’s my take on that: put 100 rich people in a room and 100 poor people in a room, and you’ll probably find that equal percentages of them are responsible people and irresponsible people. Some people are rich because they work hard, and some of them are rich b/c they’re cut-throat asses, born rich or privileged, or just lucky. Some of the poor are poor b/c they’re lazy, but a lot of them have had really bad luck or were just delt a bad hand genetically (low IQ or health problems, etc.).

When I see a strong statistical correlation b/w poverty and obesity, I don’t think “They’re lazy,” b/c I think a lot of rich people are lazy too. I think environmental factors that can be measured and explained.

Believe me, I’m ALL about personal responsibility, but maybe I’ve met too many irresponsible rich people. Smoking is stupid, and eating too much fast food is stupid, rich or poor.

[weezer6]

Ah well, the thread is getting seriously derailed now.

America sucks!

[wileE]

America sucks!

But why?
90

[Duemellon]

Personal responsibility man...lackin an option (due to ignorance or wealth) how responsibl should they b?

...but back to the nutritional lifestyles of the rich & impoverishd in the US:

Even on the meager income I had I was abl to eat healthy enuf to do the things I needd to do, still stave off disease, maintain a healthy shiny coat, & a cold wet nose. So would bein rich mean I hav more ability to chose bettr tastin healthier foods? Absolutely. But I acceptd the situation I was in & was prepared to 6 different types of beans & damnit I liked it! (btw, I rarely eat that beans & rice now & I've put on about 10lbs since then... am I healthier?)

[classicgrrl]

My only problem with your assertion is I can't help but think you're trying to pull the victim card out here for the poor and obese
Personal responsibility man, thats my mantra-and you can be an alcoholic, cigarette smoking 350 pound cat, as long as you arent crying wolf and suing various corporations between every bite, gulp, and inhale.


Handy, and Weeone:

ever been obese?
or even overweight?

guess what?
one of two probably will be in the next 10-15 years...would you like to flip a coin?

"55% of all Americans are now overweight"
-->American Heart Association

[weeone]

Handy, and Weeone:

ever been obese?
or even overweight?

guess what?
one of two probably will be in the next 10-15 years...would you like to flip a coin?

"55% of all Americans are now overweight"
-->American Heart Association

ALLLLright. I'll do it.

[classicgrrl]

ALLLLright. I'll do it.

well, at least somebody knows their family history.

by the way, Ms. Accuses me of ripping on her, check the siggy.

:p

[weeone]

well, at least somebody knows their family history.

by the way, Ms. Accuses me of ripping on her, check the siggy.

:p

*scratches head*

:confused:

Too long ago to remember ... but if I'm just imagining being clobbered for really benign/downright ridiculous stuff, then I'm more creative than I ever once thought. Not that you are doing any clobbering. :)

Anyhow, in other news (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050306/D88LMBLG0.html) : other countries hate Americans because of the tragedies we cause by our force and domination around the world. A friend in Italy said in an email : i dunno what is really happened, but it was a tragedy and im little tired americans can do all that they want...i know its impossible to be politically perfect, but there is a limit in all and americans are overdoing lately.

Americans overdoing it. Precisely. On so many levels.

[classicgrrl]

*scratches head*

:confused:

Too long ago to remember ... but if I'm just imagining being clobbered for really benign/downright ridiculous stuff, then I'm more creative than I ever once thought. Not that you are doing any clobbering. :)

Anyhow, in other news (http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050306/D88LMBLG0.html) : other countries hate Americans because of the tragedies we cause by our force and domination around the world. A friend in Italy said in an email : i dunno what is really happened, but it was a tragedy and im little tired americans can do all that they want...i know its impossible to be politically perfect, but there is a limit in all and americans are overdoing lately.

Americans overdoing it. Precisely. On so many levels.

you missed it I changed the sig. I also just re-watched bowling for columbine...there is a series of film footage in there that would show some very persuasive reasons for the world to hate us...

edited to add there is also a series of film footage that would show som very persuasive reasons for us to hate the rest of the world...No matter what his political agenda; that is a really good film.

[weeone]

Reading the news makes me hate the world.

I'm gassing up the spacevespa and throwing plenty of Combos and Gummi Worms in the vespabasket for the trip to the moon.

[AvatarOfVishnu]

i was tempted 2 jump in & give my 2cents right away, but i bit my tongue & read EVERY word on this thread 1st

it's interesting how this discussion has evolved

let me start by saying i think Due is 1 of the most intelligent among us on this board - i constantly find myself being enlightened by his brilliantly insightful posts (on all of the other threads at least)

but Due, U R but 1 person & U can't take your experience & extrapolate it unto the entire population - there R many variables 2 consider & your circumstances, i believe, R prob very diff from the vast majority of the poor

thank U johnnylama 4 supplying us w/ those study results - this is science folks, just cuz our exp is diff doesn't invalidate the studies

3 reasons Y the poor eat less-healthy:

a) buying kitchen supplies aint cheap! (eg: if i wanna steam some broccoli i'll need a steamer).....eating McD's U dont need any kitchen appliances, utensils, plates/bowls, dish soap, etc.....even if U buy groceries - the quick 2 prepare meals/snacks R often full of crap but very convenient (U dont even need a spoon 4 pudding pops)

b) people need 2 something in life 2 enjoy.....the poor often have no sense of hope, happiness or opportunity & they turn 2 drugs, booze, or food 4 comfort, this often leads 2 addictions - think about the stereotypical drunken native americans on a reservation - most of them live in poverty & drink 2 escape their dim reality (& btw, i know plenty of native americans who R neither poor nor drunks - so pls no attacking me 4 being racist - my point applies equally 2 those of ANY race).....same applies to heroine addicts (or other substance abusers)

c) education/environment: the poor generally have little education & grow up w/ parents where the same is true, they get accustomed 2 eating like their parents, who often work mulitple jobs at min wage so they can buy the food, but have no time 2 fix a healthy feast so instead turn 2 the ease & convenience of fast food.....they have kids & the cycle continues :-(

R there exceptions 2 the rule? - most certainly! Due, i suspect that because of how U were raised, U were better able 2 overcome some of the pitfalls that most poor folks stumble in2

...

Y do people hate america?

i can sum it up in 2 words: "income inequality"

so this applies 2 all of the wealthy countries (not just good ol' USA)

sure, religion, foreign policy & propaganda play their roles 2 - but i think we can learn alot from the french revolution - when there is 2 much of a gap btwn rich & poor the poor WILL rise up in revolution - the "haves" have made done what they can 2 postpone it & make the revolution more difficult 2 pull-off, but WATCH OUT! that will only make it a more violent & sweeping when it finally does happen

we as a country not only need 2 share the wealth within the country, we also need 2 stop exploiting poorer countries (sign kyoto treaty, support global minimum wage, 4give debts 2 poor countries, & offer more financial assistance would B good ways 2 start)

i'm not advocating communism - but rather a narrowing of the gap btwn rich & poor - make sure everyone has access 2 the necessities like health care, nutritious food, clean air & water, safe place 2 live, clothes 2 wear, heat in the winter, etc

pursuit of short-term goals at the expense the long-term not only hurts poor addicts, but also the well-2-do's as well.....when the rich realize that aiding the less fortunate is also in THEIR self-interest (even if they take a small short-term hit), then the gap will narrow & the revolution will B postponed even further (if not indefinately - or am i dreaming?)

[DaHood]

let me start by saying i think Due is 1 of the most intelligent among us on this board - i constantly find myself being enlightened by his brilliantly insightful posts (on all of the other threads at least)
You're right about Due being highly intelligent. After meeting him I also think he's very thoughtful and a great guy as well.

I don't always agree with him. I'll go as far as to say sometimes his posts piss me off, lol. But he really does try to see all sides, a better man than I am for that. Even if I don't agree with him I can respect what he has to say most of the time. And I can't help but like him after meeting him.

[Duemellon]

Due, i suspect that because of how U were raised, U were better able 2 overcome some of the pitfalls that most poor folks stumble in2yes, that is mostly tru & I understood that. I 1st approachd the myth that bad food costs less than good food. Howevr, I can't do anythin about the truth that u can giv a guy a fishin pole, but if they can't get to the lake, & don't kno how to cast, it won't do them any good.

We continue to act as if education is limitd to social sciences, math, & how to write English, but we all kno that in our daily lives we use less than 3% of the crap we learnd after Kindergarten. Why do the LD people get more help in life-skills than the rest of us? Mien Gott! My lil sisters were taught how to cook, clean, count calories, etc. in their classes. They were put in jobs, taught vocational shit. Me? I had to pick that up from my home/neighborhood surroundings.

If it wasn't for my mother being who she was, I'd be just as lost & confused as these others. If my father didn't show me the pride of being (financially) poor but wealthy (mentally), I'd've fallen to pieces when I was a broke-ass mofo.

It took a lot of mental preparation & understanding about what I needed to do to stay positive, hopeful, & healthy. It was my background that did it.And I can't help but like him after meeting him.thanks & cool, hey, you wanna make out? : x

[PeterABnny]

I'm sure something like this isn't helping the cause:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7089948/

My favorite part of the article:

“I believe, but it’s only a hypothesis, that the happy ending to the negotiations must have been irksome,” she said. “The Americans are against this type of operation. For them, war is war, human life doesn’t count for much.”

My wife told me a Canadian viewpoint three years ago, when she told me about why the world hates America. Basically, we're seen as nothing but a big, arrogant, self-centered, condescending bully, forcing our will on the rest of the world and expecting them to go along with it - and like it. At the time, the words kinda stung, but now with Dumbass in the White House (again) and his New World Order of war and neocon domination sending the country into ruin, I can see she's right. I've said it before, and it I've a feeling it becomes truer every day: come next terrorist attack, we're not going to get anywhere near the sympathy and goodwill we did the first time. And I, for my myself, can't fault the rest of the world a bit. :(

However, my wife said, there's a distinction made between the American People and the American Government. According to her, Americans in general aren't seen as that much of a problem. The people themselves aren't too bad. Kinda likable in a way. It's just the Government and American Policy that's so utterly hateable. Now, this was before the war and before Dumbass did all the damage he's done to our country and our image. Whether or not that distinction is still made I don't know. Course, if you're a good little Rupublican and Bush supporter, you don't really give a shit what the rest of the world thinks.

Is it wrong for me to think every time I see a Bush-Cheney bumper sticker, "Thanks for making us one of the most hated countries in the world you dumbfuck asshole!"? :p

[Handy Smurf]

Handy, and Weeone:

ever been obese?
or even overweight?

guess what?
one of two probably will be in the next 10-15 years...would you like to flip a coin?

"55% of all Americans are now overweight"
-->American Heart Association
yes, and I worked really hard to lose a lot of weight-and I'm still not Johnny McSvelterson, but I'm in much better shape. In fact my alcohol consumption, business at work that has limited my free time/excercise time/ and irregular eating schedule have led me to put on a few extra lbs again recently, but I'm a little time and a little discipline away from lookin my best. My point is that I'm not going to/wasn't going to go around playing the blame game-looking for people to sue, lobbying to have my "condition" labeled as a disease, claiming I was ignorant of the facts that would've lead to better held, claiming I was too poor to be perfectly thin
I think thats all nonsense and I think way too many people live in this country today with that attitude, that the world owes them something and accountability and responsibility are nothing but words with too many syllables

b) people need 2 something in life 2 enjoy.....the poor often have no sense of hope, happiness or opportunity & they turn 2 drugs, booze, or food 4 comfort, this often leads 2 addictions - think about the stereotypical drunken native americans on a reservation - most of them live in poverty & drink 2 escape their dim reality (& btw, i know plenty of native americans who R neither poor nor drunks - so pls no attacking me 4 being racist - my point applies equally 2 those of ANY race).....same applies to heroine addicts (or other substance abusers)
I dont know you and dont mean offense, but the above=major copout
My parents went without anything to enjoy for a long time other than their love for each other and their family. When I was growing up and until my Dad got his business well established when I was in my midteens, we rarely had frills. The older I got the more we were able to afford modest vacations, slightly nicer birthday presents, etc. This was after a lifetime of never eating fast food or going out for dinner, shopping with coupons, never buying brand name products-food, clothes, toys, whatever, on those once in a blue moon occasions when we'd go to a Reds game, movie, the zoo, there wasn't an additional $100 spent on food on top of the $30 for tix. If it was baseball or a movie, we didnt snack, it it was the zoo, we brought food with us. Top that off with the fact that everything was always budgeted extremely well, my parents never came close to going into debt, didnt overuse credit cards simply because they could...add it all up and you'd be amazed how much money you can save over the years.
Now my family lives very comfortably, my parents have money to go to the Playhouse or the symphony whenever they want, everyone has nicer wardrobes, we eat out at a nice restaurant occasionally, dad drives a nicer car, family has a nice in ground heated pool. Its amazing how little savings adds up over the years-hell, we didnt have cable the first 18 years of my life, some of the poorest people ive known waste money on that. Not everyone is going to have the business success my family(dad) has had. But if you save and spend your money wisely and work hard, you arent doomed to being fat or poor or whatever. You best learn to "enjoy" something other than McDonalds hamburgers, because if thats where you derive your joy from and youre not able to advance much higher in the realworld financially, your going to be limited to enjoying burgers for the rest of your life.

[PeterABnny]

I think thats all nonsense and I think way too many people live in this country today with that attitude, that the world owes them something and accountability and responsibility are nothing but words with too many syllables


Ever get the idea that you're among the very last of the Mohicans with that attitude, Handy? :)

[purple_octopus]

Ever get the idea that you're among the very last of the Mohicans with that attitude, Handy? :)

He has at least me to keep him company.

[arcane]

People don't hate america. :D

English people do.

[Handy Smurf]

Ever get the idea that you're among the very last of the Mohicans with that attitude, Handy? :)
Yes, although I think there are at least a few likeminded souls here
I blame nobody else for my failures in life...other than that time I wrecked the Rolls Royce, that was Needles fault, he called me chicken

[Duemellon]

You can control how you want to interpret it, but when everything was said and done the locus of control ends up balanced. At certain moments the locus may swing entirely externally, and other times be completely within your control, but to walk around with the view that it is in the extreeme of one or the other in a generalized sense is folly.

There are things you simply cannot control and you must base your decisions on the things you know about, the things you can control, and the abilities afforded to you.