Face it, everything sucks because we're blind consumers and nothing else.

[Phreon]

Music is supposed to be something you do, not something to be consumed.

Isn't this idea the crux of every "downfall" issue society faces? The idea that creativity is something only an elite few has? That all you can hope for is to work your shitty job, cash a check and pray you can afford a better car, bigger house or more sophisticated bath tub?

I work with some highly intelligent people who use their "off work" minds for nothing more than deciphering the meaning of this week's episode of "Lost" . Wha' happened?


Phreon

[ianalex20]

You are working with a bunch of Libs Phreon!!:D

[yoshomon]

I'm kind of tired, but I can recommend books.

Society of the Spectacle by Guy Debord
The Culture of Make Believe by Derrick Jensen
A Language Older Than Words by Derrick Jensen

[Phreon]

Originally posted by ianalex20
You are working with a bunch of Libs Phreon!!:D

I think not. Though I consider myself reasonably conservative (or maybe a rational moderately conservative liberal), I'm the Earth Liberation Front compared to them.

Take yer' silly sterotypes and stuff 'em.


Cordially,

Phreon

[yoshomon]

Originally posted by ianalex20
Yosh, I want to get nekkid and play scrabble with you... ok, by scrabble I meant sex.

Strange, I was thinking the exact same thing!

[postfeminist]

yoshie pie, that brought such warmth to my heart.

wait, that might not be my heart...

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by Phreon
The idea that creativity is something only an elite few has?quoted again for emphasis.

That's my personal crusade, to get those ppl out there who think they don't hav the time, talent, or innovation, to actually find it!

There r very few ppl in the world who r actually uncreativ, & those ppl hav noticable mental disabilities. It is our nature to b creativ, but our society doesn't reward small creativities, it only rewards creativity that makes (as noted by Phr) money.

To all my friends out there who I'v told to b more creativ & just do it anyway & emplore u to listn to Phr & me on this...

Just Do It!

What's the worst that happens? It looks/sounds/smells/moves funny? Then just sho it to ur friends, or fam, & then do it anyway.

If ur job takes too much of ur soul to do anythin more, then

A) U'r thinkin it takes more effort to xpress ur creativity than it really does (writin, sketchin, hummin... whatevr)

B) Chang ur priorities

Thanks Phr, I couldn't agree more.

[akip]

Originally posted by Duemellon
our society doesn't reward small creativities, it only rewards creativity that makes (as noted by Phr) money.



here, here. (clinks glass)

[justa bill]

Originally posted by Phreon
(or maybe a rational moderately conservative liberal)

Excellent! that makes two of us... at least. :]

And it's a great question. It is kind of sickening watching the orgy of consumerism, but I am constantly reminding myself that, instinctively and pschologically, people today are the exact same as people in ancient Egypt. We only have a GREATER opportunity to hoard stuff today. Much greater!

A lot of people can't see much beyond "consuming", but everyone still makes a personal value judgment about 'how much is too much'--otherwise EVERYONE would work 80+ hours a week if need be so they could drive a Bentley... but most everyone decides it's just not worth it.

of course, a lot of those same people spend a lot of their "free time" sucking on the wet nurse of television, but. . . I think in the end, most people are not those poor slobs in "The Matrix" who are straped into "Consumer Experiance Modulars". (BTW, the Matrix isn't about "technology", it's a morallity play in the classic theatrical sence which deals wif materialism [as it used to be called] or if you will "consumerism". i.e. people living for only for a comfortable Consumer experience.)

--

and ya know, as far as I can remember, Bill Clinton was the first President to refer to the American Citizen as only the American CONSUMER. Every time it was "in the intrest of the American Consumer" that "our government should do this or that". I always remember being terribly disapointed to hear that coming from a President--especially a Democrat!

I'm a citizen, damnit. And yes I eat food, so I do consume some things, but damnit, i'm not a capital "C" Consumer!!!

and there really are a lot of people jus' like me! :]

[foolsgold]

I find this attitude to be exceptionally elitist (at best) and condescending (at worst.) Why is it that someone who enjoys 'Lost' (which I do) and subscribes to the worries you've listed can not enjoy a full life?

What makes a book better than a television show?

Why are Maroon 5 so much worse than Spacemen 3?

Why is it infeasible to enjoy both of them?

How do you know that these people are living such vacuous and shallow lives devoid of any real stimulation or pleasure?

Why should people spend time pursuing 'intellectual' endeavors and is there a guide which would let people know what these are?

Can creativity include knitting a scarf with your loved one while watching a Cheers rerun?

But, more importantly, why do you care so much?

I am not trying to be snarky, but I do find this attitude very troublesome.

[akip]

Originally posted by Phreon
The idea that creativity is something only an elite few has?

i was out walking the dog in the snow, thinking about this. one of the ironies of my life is that circumstances have brought me into the social fringe of the very rich. many of them are political conservatives who are making millions of dollars off the average joe consumer. these same businessmen turn around and spend millions on edgy artwork because it gives them entree into a certain elite and groovy creative society. the creative people usually despise the politics of the consumers of their work. but that's the way it is.

as for taste snobbism, it's hard not to resent the dominance of crass corporatism in american culture. you travel the entire country and so many towns have been transformed by the same franchise, strip-mall aesthetic. it kills local character; it kills creative risk-taking. it kills culture, period.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by foolsgold
I find this attitude to be exceptionally elitist (at best) and condescending (at worst.) Why is it that someone who enjoys 'Lost' (which I do) and subscribes to the worries you've listed can not enjoy a full life?u can. But time cannot b traded, upgraded, or stored away. To spend 1 min doin somethin u don't want to do is to nevr get that minute back.

To hav to spend 1 min recoverin from spendin 1 hr from somethin u didn't want to do (but had to do) is a minute u can't get back. If u really wanna watch TV, if u really find that more rewardin than explorin forms of xpression for ur soul & emotions, then... o.k. Be that guy. It's ur choice.

Personally I wish u would spend more time seekin ur forms of xpression than digestin saccrine-sweeten shows intendd to appeal to the LCD of audiences.What makes a book better than a television show?the use of imagination & individual interpretation of the scene. The way u hav to project urself into the situation to understand it. It's much more hands-on than televion, or a particularly explicit movie.Why is it infeasible to enjoy both of them?it is not. It's just that one of them engages more of ur mind than the othr.How do you know that these people are living such vacuous and shallow lives devoid of any real stimulation or pleasure?that's a good question. "Real" is definitely relativBut, more importantly, why do you care so much?I care b/c I see our society placatin the desire for individuality & creativ expressions/w the consumption of a limitd amount of ppl who create things intendd for mass-appeal who's meanings r often lost in the attempt to not-offend anyone & be desireabl to everyone.

The best tastin chili I had is one that I make. It's very specific to my taste. Too much garlic, too much onion, but I didn't make it for McDonalds' oven.

[foolsgold]

Originally posted by Duemellon
The best tastin chili I had is one that I make.[/B]

Come summertime, we should have a 97X chili contest because I would win, get all the chicks and probably be made president of a whole bunch of cool stuff.

My chili is just that good.

[JSpaceman]

Originally posted by foolsgold

Why are Maroon 5 so much worse than Spacemen 3?
GOOD LORD, MY EYES! IT'S LIKE STARING INTO THE SUN!!!!

You just got yourself put on ignore, kind sir. ;)

[yoshomon]

I make a good pot of vegan chili. Bring it!

[wileE]

Originally posted by Duemellon
What's the worst that happens? It looks/sounds/smells/moves funny? Then just sho it to ur friends, or fam, & then do it anyway.

And if it doesn't turn out right, learn from your mistake so that the next time you do it you can make it better.

Originally posted by Duemellon
The best tastin chili I had is one that I make.[/B]
I say the same thing about my beer.

[despondent]

A healthy life is one with balance. I used to get really frustrated that my job ultimately wasn't very fullfilling. I now have that attitude that it is simply a means to provide for myself. I get my ultimate fullfillment from my other pursuits in life. Life is much too short to let it pass by. I honestly believe that creating and trandscending ourselves IS our purpose for existing.

[Wolverine]

Books/reading = work

TV watching = no work


Unfortunately, some (many)? are just too worn out from their jobs to want to do anything associated with work or mind stimulation. So, they hook up the IV, er... TV and become one with the planet... :p

[Dick Cheney]

This garbage sounds like Anti-American propaganda.

Of course we are consumers. We are Americans. We have the freedom to buy whatever we want.

Go out there and Buy that TiVo System at Circuit City, Buy that Stereo at Wal-Mart, go buy that SUV, and go out there and eat at McDonald's.

We are Americans and this is what we do.

[despondent]

Maybe in your America, Dick.

[markalot]

Mine too, though I gave up McDonalds.

I'm not blind, I SEE what I want, get approval from the wife, and buy it. :D

[72valiant]

as much as i wanna agree with due and phreon, i have to remind myself of a philosophy i prescribe to. read john stuart mills - on liberty.

basically, an individual should be able to do whatever he/she wants as long as it does not harm another. of course, that is so simple to say and just opens an unwinnable argument as to what 'harm' is. i guess that's why it is called philosophy.

hmm, i wonder if it's available on dvd.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by 72valiant
basically, an individual should be able to do whatever he/she wants as long as it does not harm another.ah... so tru.

But the problem is the promotion of the simpl life is really a complex arrangement of docile behavior, complacency, & sedation by trivial items. It's as if they r told: "Do whatevr u want" but then they say "But this (monetary success, male promiscuity/female monogomy, fame) is the best & those (xtra time on hands, unfocused/unprofitabl creativity, small intangibl legacies) rn't that good."

So u end up/w an imbalance as ppl focus on the de facto irrelevent to prove their worth.

[drexel dave]

You're really not that dickless are you?

Originally posted by markalot
Mine too, though I gave up McDonalds.

I'm not blind, I SEE what I want, get approval from the wife, and buy it. :D

[markalot]

Originally posted by drexel dave
You're really not that dickless are you?



I have no dick. Hey, I heard when you were born you had to have an emergency circumcision so you could breath. Is that true?

Thankyou, I'm here all week.

[drexel dave]

well, I think you know what I meant. You don't actually ask your wife if you can, do you?

Nothing wrong with being alpha now ;-)

[Phreon]

Originally posted by drexel dave
You're really not that dickless are you?



Thanks for contributing to the thread. Nice job.



I'm not against people watching the tube from time to time or wanting a cool gadget (I'm a freak in that regard). It just sad that somewhere along the line we made the switch from leading the life of a "doer" to living vicariously through the tube and this crazy cult of celebrity.

Honestly, wasn't there a time when people watched TV to get away from reality? We've come to the point where life is about accepting a preprogrammed, prepackaged reality and placating ourselves by absorbing alternate ones projected from the mind numbing corporate ether.

Quit bitching about Britany and pick up a guitar. So what if you only know covers....at least the music making process is an active one.

Stop consuming life! Live it!

Phreon

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by Phreon
Quit bitching about Britany and pick up a guitar.

no.

because I don't want to.

[yoshomon]

Originally posted by classicgrrl
no.

because I don't want to.

Pfft. Then pick up the trumpet, satchmo.

[summerteeth]

Originally posted by yoshomon
I make a good pot of vegan chili. Bring it! awesome!! despite being a meat eater, a good vegan/veggie chili is one of my favorite treats. we DO need to have a chili competition sometime.

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by yoshomon
Pfft. Then pick up the trumpet, satchmo.

dammit Yosh for makin' me laugh when I want to be mad!

[bluewilco]

Originally posted by patio
I dont see what is so wrong with being a consumer. There is no way to avoid it, so just do it smartly.

I don't think the argument is against consumption. We all consume something to survive, entertain, maintain, etc.

I like TV, the internet, gadgets, etc as much as the next guy, and yes, I probably watch a little too much TV, but I also enjoy the fruits of reading a book, drawing, making music, listening to music, writing, et. al.

Phreon, you make a good point that TV has become a way of life instead of a form of simple escapism. I understand people have hard jobs, and need to unwind sometimes without straining over a hobby or a project, but escaping all the time thru television or shuting off your brain is not the way to go.

I think art is a necessity and one many overlook because they think it's classical music, opera, Van Gogh, etc. when art IS anything someone creates, whether it's a thesis about last week's episode of Lost, a debate about whether Hulk Hogan is really better than Macho Man Randy Savage, knitting, woodworking or just thinking of an original idea.

Art needs to be repackaged as something that isn't elitest or a progression of steps that ends in a painting or a song, but as something everyone can do, and does without knowing that they've created art.

[stpdgirl]

I have been trying to become a better/more informed consumer. Here are a few web sites that I have found to be very informative. If anyone knows of any other good sites or resources, I would really appreciate the info.



National Labor committee (http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/ )
Responsible Shopper (http://www.responsibleshopper.org/ )
Behind The Label (http://www.behindthelabel.org/)
United Students Agaisnt Sweatshops (http://www.studentsagainstsweatshops.org/index.php)

Each of these sites have pages that have other links on them. The USAS has a really long list of links.

Oh, and one last thing...

PLEASE DO NOT SHOP AT WAL-MART!!!

They are despicable and deplorable. From their blatant disregard for the basic human rights of the people working in the sweatshops of their suppliers to their sexist employment practices, they have the longest list of offenses I have found.

[drexel dave]

http://66.175.6.118/images/art/abughraibsmall.jpg

[solomon]

I find this attitude to be exceptionally elitist (at best) and condescending (at worst.) Why is it that someone who enjoys 'Lost' (which I do) and subscribes to the worries you've listed can not enjoy a full life?

What makes a book better than a television show?

Why are Maroon 5 so much worse than Spacemen 3?

Why is it infeasible to enjoy both of them?

How do you know that these people are living such vacuous and shallow lives devoid of any real stimulation or pleasure?

Why should people spend time pursuing 'intellectual' endeavors and is there a guide which would let people know what these are?

Can creativity include knitting a scarf with your loved one while watching a Cheers rerun?

But, more importantly, why do you care so much?


Nice post. See, the thing is you are dealing mainly with left-leaning elitists here. (The two go hand in hand) The music woxy plays IS OBJECTIVELY BETTER than pop music, most people are just "too dumb", too into consumption, too blinded by propaganda, whatever, to be into it. Same goes with TV, life's goals, whatever. What they are forgetting or ignoring is that in the end all valuations are subjective. See to be smart or whatever you have to be into THEIR goals and have THEIR views, and if you don't, they will not hesitate to force them on you ultimately through government programs etc. That's just how right they are you see.

sol

[Phreon]

The above text is all that's left after I removed your advert. Notice there's nothing there?

If you have something to contribute Dave, please do so, but don't keep treating threads as your own infomercial forum. The content doesn't bother me, but your spamming does; hock you wares in one of my threads again and I'll report ya'. Use the damned "For Sale" board next time.

Cheers!

Phreon

[Docta]

Nice post. See, the thing is you are dealing mainly with left-leaning elitists here. (The two go hand in hand) The music woxy plays IS OBJECTIVELY BETTER than pop music, most people are just "too dumb", too into consumption, too blinded by propaganda, whatever, to be into it. Same goes with TV, life's goals, whatever. What they are forgetting or ignoring is that in the end all valuations are subjective. See to be smart or whatever you have to be into THEIR goals and have THEIR views, and if you don't, they will not hesitate to force them on you ultimately through government programs etc. That's just how right they are you see.

sol

give me a f'n break

[Leach]

This garbage sounds like Anti-American propaganda.

Of course we are consumers. We are Americans. We have the freedom to buy whatever we want.

Go out there and Buy that TiVo System at Circuit City, Buy that Stereo at Wal-Mart, go buy that SUV, and go out there and eat at McDonald's.

We are Americans and this is what we do.

Wow.... I feel like i've become dumber after reading this post.... especially the "quote" at the bottom of every one of his posts.

[Leach]

My personal take on this is life is not that hard. People are constantly being creative within their own means. Granted I am in full agreement with you about television. It's not that I think it's bad and shouldn't be watched, but that there is never anything "good" on. Set aside from the discovery channel the only channel i keep on my tube at all times is Cartoon Network, at least I'm watching something that someone else took pride into doing over a period of time.

None the less there are forms of creativeness that require thinking and what not. I'm an avid game player, motion skills, thinking, and logic are all required for this.

Part of consumerism? yes of course you must pay the people who spent their time programming the game.

What is conceived from the time spent after work and labor? A great story line closely resembled to reading a book, the logic it took to determine your next step in the story of the game etc....

So television can bring the somewhat mind demanding things into your life. But to leave you TV on CBS all day and just watch whatever mind numbing soap opera or Prime time television show comes on, I just think is a little too much. There are plenty of really good books and movies to get involved in rather than just the same rehashed tv show over and over again. All i hear at work is about Lost and Survivor, That's all this lower middle class attitude has turned into.

What happened to the days of Quantum Leap and Twin Peaks, even Perry Mason for hell's sake. At least you had to think a little bit.

I think there was a great song about this sort of thing

A DIFFERENT CITY
I wanna live in a city with no friends or family
I'm gonna look out the window of my color T.V.
I wanna remember to remember to forget you forgot me
I'm gonna look out the window of my color T.V.
Through the cracks in the wall
Slow motion for all
Dripped out of the bars
Someone smart said nothiní at all
I'm watching T.V.
I guess thatís a solution
They gave me a receipt that said, I didn't buy nothiní
So rust is a fire and our blood oxidizes
My eyes rolled around, all around on the carpet
Oh hit the deck, It's the decal man
Standiní upside down and talkiní out of his pants
I wanna live in a city with no friends or family
Iím gonna look out the window of my color T.V.

[markalot]

http://markalot.org/stuff/gaf-meter.gif

:D

Nothing personal, just wanted to use that graphic.

[Johnnylama]

http://markalot.org/stuff/gaf-meter.gif

:D

Nothing personal, just wanted to use that graphic.

Graphic of the day! :D