Strap Rummie in a Humvee & send them to Falluj

[Duemellon]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6676765/

Troops put tough questions to Rumsfeld
Defense secretary gets his own “talking to” from disgruntled GIs

The Associated Press
Updated: 9:06 a.m. ET Dec. 8, 2004

CAMP BUEHRING, Kuwait - After delivering a pep talk designed to energize troops preparing to head for Iraq, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld got a little “talking to” himself from disgruntled soldiers
...
Army Spc. Thomas Wilson, for example, of the 278th Regimental Combat Team that is comprised mainly of citizen soldiers of the Tennessee Army National Guard, asked Rumsfeld in a question-and-answer session why vehicle armor is still in short supply, nearly three years after the war in Iraq.

“Why do we soldiers have to dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to uparmor our vehicles?” Wilson asked. A big cheer arose from the approximately 2,300 soldiers in the cavernous hangar who assembled to see and hear the secretary of defense.

Rumsfeld hesitated and asked Wilson to repeat his question.

“We do not have proper armored vehicles to carry with us north,” Wilson said after asking again.

Rumsfeld replied that, “You go to war with the Army you have,” not the one you might want, and that any rate the Army was pushing manufacturers of vehicle armor to produce it as fast as humanly possible

[Wondertastic]

typical response from a man playing with his toys. there are no consequences for him in this b.s. war.

[Duemellon]

Our troops lives are worth less than a sheet of metal.

They'd rather send a replacement for the life lost in combat than prevent the loss of the life.

[silvertone32]

The only up armored vehicles we had were for the brigade commander. The rest were just normal. Our 2nd Brigade lost their Command Sgt Major in Mosul due to lack of armor. Fuck these guys we are but money making pawns and our blood isnt worth a minute of sleep to them. The same old shit.... out of touch chain of command that does not realize a hefty % of the troops wounded and killed are by IED's while they are on convoy. I was hit on foot patrol but we did sustain alot of casualities from convoy ambush.

[postfeminist]

shame, shame, shame. and why is it that nothing is happening? people seem to know that the soldiers are being fuct over by lack of equip. & stuff....but nothing happens??

[Pretend Girl]

I bet Rumsfeld has a Support Our Troops sticker on his car. His response sounded GREAT for troop morale.

how is it possible that we can strip away human value so easily? this is really sad.

furthermore, I don't know how anyone could fly over to Iraq, see what is happening, and not want to bring everyone back with them when they get into their nice, safe helicopter/jet/whatever and fly away. what a bunch of selfish assholes. next time bush or rumsfeld or anyone else goes over there, the pilot oughta slap a helmet and a gun on them and fly away...

[Pretend Girl]

Originally posted by postfeminist
shame, shame, shame. and why is it that nothing is happening? people seem to know that the soldiers are being fuct over by lack of equip. & stuff....but nothing happens??

oh things are happening. parents are buying body armor for their children and sending it overseas...

:rolleyes:

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by silvertone32
The same old shit.... out of touch chain of command that does not realize a hefty % of the troops wounded and killed are by IED's while they are on convoy.

Actually, doesn't the article indicate explicitly that Rumsfeld knows that?

[silvertone32]

Yeah I guess your are right on that one....but knowing and caring are two different animals.

[DaysWithoutEnd]

Originally posted by postfeminist
shame, shame, shame. and why is it that nothing is happening? people seem to know that the soldiers are being fuct over by lack of equip. & stuff....but nothing happens??

Weren't you following the election, PF? Everybody knows that John Kerry voted against armor for troops. It's all his fault.
:rolleyes: :p

[tobedawg]

This further goes to show the disregard for the U.S. soldiers that the Bush Administration has..

I've noticed alot of those "Support our Troops" magnet ribbons on SUV's lately.. (many of them right next to the fading Bush/Cheney 04 stickers).. Nice to know that they are supporting the troops now! Where were they when the War began?

Oh that's right.. Badmouthing the French, bulldozing Dixie Chicks CD's, and holding Pro-War rallies sponsored by Clear Channel.. I guess with being THAT busy, there wasn't really any time to think of supporting the Troops..

[ianalex10]

You guys are the ones who voted for Kerry!!

Remember, He is the guy who voted against the 87 billion for our troops!!

[Johnnylama]

Originally posted by ianalex10
You guys are the ones who voted for Kerry!!

Remember, He is the guy who voted against the 87 billion for our troops!!
He voted for the exact same bill that included a provision that it be paid for by rolling back some of the massive tax cuts for the rich.

Do you read AT ALL or just listen to Rush Linbaugh?

[Johnnylama]

Originally posted by tobedawg


I've noticed alot of those "Support our Troops" magnet ribbons on SUV's lately.. (many of them right next to the fading Bush/Cheney 04 stickers).. Nice to know that they are supporting the troops now! Where were they when the War began?


That reminds me of a question I have about those ribbons:

Does any of the money spent on them actually GO to supporting the troops, or is it just completely ostentatious?

[Da Spellchecka]

Originally posted by ianalex10

Remember, He is the guy who voted against the 87 billion for our troops!! There is no reason for the word "he" to be capitalized in that sentence.

[aqualou]

Originally posted by Da Spellchecka
There is no reason for the word "he" to be capitalized in that sentence. usless, of course, He is God!


Thump them bibles boys!

[JSpaceman]

So ianalex thinks Kerry is God? Huh... never would have guessed...

[ianalex10]

Originally posted by Da Spellchecka
There is no reason for the word "he" to be capitalized in that sentence.


Thanks Due!

[REMgirl]

Johnny Lama, I was curious about that, too. I looked up a lot of mail order places via Google, and it would appear that the magnets are just another moneymaker for the sellers. No mention of proceeds going to the troops. But there may be a few of them that do.

[Candyass]

I am guessing that those same ribbons are made by child labor overseas, right? I know a lot of the American flags sold after 911 were made in China...hmmmm so patriotic.

[Duemellon]

I just don't understand it when they pull the point out about Kerry votin against the 87bil when we say our troops r inadequately fundd.

Did the bill pass?

R they still ill-equipped?

Maybe Kerry's vote was the right vote seein as the $$ that did go thru didn't go thru for the right things?

[Johnnylama]

Originally posted by REMgirl
Johnny Lama, I was curious about that, too. I looked up a lot of mail order places via Google, and it would appear that the magnets are just another moneymaker for the sellers. No mention of proceeds going to the troops. But there may be a few of them that do.

Wow! That blows my mind. I've seen pink breast cancer ones, black POW ones, all sorts of them, and somebody's getting rich off of it? Man, that is low. Please somebody tell me at least SOME of it goes to help!

[REMgirl]

This might cheer you up:

http://www.freep.com/features/living/magnets11e_20041111.htm

I read another brief article that stated that the vendor at one 7-11 was selling them and his supplier had sent $2000 of the profit to the Red Cross. Still, that doesn't sound like much, for as many of those ribbons as you see everywhere.

[PeterABnny]

I hear about this on the news. Rummy definitely needed the wake-up call, but I have a bad feeling that comment is gonna cost that grunt in the end. :(:(:(

Our boys and girls can't complain too much. After all, they did vote Dumbass into office again, and along with him another four years of Donnie-Boy Rumsfeld. They shouldn't expect things to get much better with him around.

And stop quoting I20, guys! Those of us who have the asshole on ignore don't need to see what he has to say. :p

[postfeminist]

And stop quoting I20, guys! Those of us who have the asshole on ignore don't need to see what he has to say.

FOR REAL! damn! you're ruining the pleasure i get from this

This person is on your Ignore List.

[Pretend Girl]

Originally posted by PeterABnny
Our boys and girls can't complain too much. After all, they did vote Dumbass into office again, and along with him another four years of Donnie-Boy Rumsfeld. They shouldn't expect things to get much better with him around.

Are you serious? That's quite the balls-out generalization there.

I'm a Christian and it pains me to the core when I'm blamed for Bush's reelection.

If that was a joke, disregard, but if it wasn't, explain?

[Johnnylama]

Originally posted by REMgirl
This might cheer you up:

http://www.freep.com/features/living/magnets11e_20041111.htm

I read another brief article that stated that the vendor at one 7-11 was selling them and his supplier had sent $2000 of the profit to the Red Cross. Still, that doesn't sound like much, for as many of those ribbons as you see everywhere.

Thanks for the info! Good intentions at first, but now it's taken on a life of it's own.

I'd rather have a sticker on my car that says this:

"When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart."

Ralph Waldo Emerson
Journals, 1824

Emerson is my home-boy:D

[REMgirl]

Excellent quote! Bumper sticker that one.

[postfeminist]

did anyone see the daily show's story on these very issues tonight?

[Pretend Girl]

I just got a new bumper sticker a couple weeks ago that says

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS
SEND THEM HOME

good stuff.

[Johnnylama]

Originally posted by postfeminist
did anyone see the daily show's story on these very issues tonight?

No! I bet it was great. That show is the funniest thing ever created by western civilization.

[candy4140]

Originally posted by postfeminist
did anyone see the daily show's story on these very issues tonight?
Yeah, funny as S@(#*. I hadn't yet seen the clip when they asked him yet another tough questions and Rummy's response was "grrrrr....settle down, it's early in the morning and I'm an old man, hard to answer these questions so early in the morning"

The F@)(#*%?

[Duemellon]

c'mon, someone set us up the clip?

[Seattle93]

In case anyone is interested, Rep. Ted Strickland (OH - 6th District) has been hounding Donald Rumsfeld for over a year regarding armor for soldiers and their vehicles. This is his most recent letter to Rumsfeld:

From Strickland's Website (http://www.house.gov/strickland/press.htm)

OPEN LETTER TO SECRETARY OF DEFENSE DONALD RUMSFELD

The Honorable Donald H. Rumsfeld
Secretary of Defense
1000 Defense Pentagon
Room 3E880
Washington, DC 20301


Dear Secretary Rumsfeld,

For more than a year, now, I have corresponded with you several times seeking basic protective equipment for our troops, including body armor and uparmored Humvees. In your responses, you expressed to me your commitment to protecting our troops. However, your callous remarks yesterday call that commitment into serious question.

Your comments in Kuwait yesterday (December 7th, 2004) showed – with crystal clarity – the halfhearted approach you as Secretary of Defense took in preparing for this war. The bottom line is that you sent our troops into war without adequate supplies of body armor and without a sufficient number of uparmored Humvees and other vehicles. Despite conventional military thinking, you tried to fight this war on the quick and on the cheap. Even after it became painfully obvious to you that our troops desperately needed this equipment, you failed to take the lead in increasing production of body armor and uparmored vehicles for our troops. It wasn’t until Congressional pressure forced you to do so that you took action.

The young soldier’s assertion yesterday that he and his comrades have had to, “dig through local landfills for pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass” to armor their vehicles should be a call to arms for you and the rest of the Pentagon to do whatever is necessary to get our troops the equipment they need to prosecute the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It should also be a mark of disgrace for you and the President. Instead, your staff has spent the last 24 hours belittling the concerns of our troops. Telling our troops that we, “go to war with the Army [we] have,” is pathetic and shameful. It may be true in the case of future or advanced weaponry, but there’s no excuse for your utter failure to make certain our troops had the most basic protection available before going to war.

Despite months of buildup before the invasion of Iraq, the Pentagon did not increase production of Interceptor Body Armor (IBA) until after the war began, delaying full deployment of the armor until a year after the start of the war. And despite months of guerilla warfare and attacks on US convoys and standard Humvees, it wasn’t until a year and a half after the war in Iraq began that the Pentagon asked O’Garra Hess, the sole Pentagon supplier of uparmored Humvees, to increase production to maximum capacity.

Earlier this year, I was contacted by the family support group of the 660th Transportation Company, an Army Reserve unit and its detachment, deployed from Cadiz and Zanesville, Ohio. As you know, the mission of the 660th is to deliver fuel in semi-tractors and tankers. Since the approximately 140 reservists of the 660th Transportation Company arrived in Fallujah, Iraq in February 2004, four have been killed in the line of duty. I have received a letter signed by fathers, mothers, husbands, wives and other family members of the 660th pleading for help. And what they are asking for Mr. Secretary is simply that the Department of Defense immediately armor all vehicles these reservist use so that no more soldiers lose their lives.

The following is an excerpt from the letter I received: “We do not know if you are aware that there is armor available to be added to the trucks that the commanders have refused to let the soldiers apply to the trucks. This is available and made to protect our troops, yet the commanders feel it is more important to bring those trucks back to the United States. It is our understanding that if the trucks are altered, they will not bring them back to the United States. Our thought is that the commanders believe it is more important to bring the trucks back to the United States than our soldiers…We were led to believe when we entrusted our precious family members to fight in this war, that everything possible would be done to protect them. The soldiers believed this also…Let us not lose one more life that could possibly be saved with the proper equipment.”

Mr. Secretary, what is your response to these families? What will you say to the brave soldiers they have selflessly given to protect our nation? You clearly have the power to make a difference in protecting our soldiers and seeing that they receive the best possible equipment in the field. I hope your answer to them will be more considerate and well-thought out. The families of the 660th Transportation Company and I await your response.


Sincerely,

Ted Strickland
Member of Congress


More from Strickland
January 2004 (http://www.house.gov/strickland/BodyArmorDelayRel.html)
April 2004 (http://www.house.gov/strickland/ArmoredHumveeRel.html)
November 2003 (http://www.house.gov/strickland/BulletproofVestHearingRel.html)
October 2003 (http://www.house.gov/strickland/RumsfeldLetterVestsRel.html)

[silvertone32]

I feel more and more used by these people every day. I think this war is going to go on and on andon now. Does'nt matter how many of us are maimed and killed anymore when the American public is more interested in Lindsey Lohan lip synching than our people in harms way. How is this Not THE MAJOR ISSUE and why are we still not too upset about all of this. It is so easy to die in Iraq these days. Just a puff and aa flash and your done its that fast. I was on my back and I couldnt move and I had no real idea why just that i was hurt.

[silvertone32]

I should say that I am drunk right now.

[dlawson]

I guess no one wants to discuss the fallout of this incident, with Rumsfeld effectively being set up by an embedded reporter.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=318305

Readers should have been told promptly that an embedded reporter had helped frame a question that a serviceman asked of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld this week in Kuwait, the reporter's publisher says.

Military affairs reporter Edward Lee Pitts, who is embedded with the 278th Regimental Combat Team, said he worked with guardsmen after being told reporters would not be allowed to ask Rumsfeld any questions.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Rumsfeld's response. Yes, it's curt, but it's also quite honest.

[Duemellon]

But the 2nd question from a different serviceman must'v also been a member of the liberal media.

Whatevrz.

[Johnnylama]

Originally posted by silvertone32
I feel more and more used by these people every day. I think this war is going to go on and on andon now. Does'nt matter how many of us are maimed and killed anymore when the American public is more interested in Lindsey Lohan lip synching than our people in harms way. How is this Not THE MAJOR ISSUE and why are we still not too upset about all of this. It is so easy to die in Iraq these days. Just a puff and aa flash and your done its that fast. I was on my back and I couldnt move and I had no real idea why just that i was hurt.

Now that the election’s over, a lot of people have washed their hands of it. Most of the people who voted for Bush have put their chips on the current administration and they’re going to let them ride. Most of the people who didn’t are disgusted and frustrated but feel largely powerless to do anything about it. Everyone’s used to hearing about soldiers killed. It comes across on the news as the weather or the latest sports scores. I find it hard to watch the news now. I’ll largely forget about what’s going on, then I’ll see a picture of a killed soldier, a very young killed soldier, your enough to be a former student of mine, and I’ll tear up, honestly, and I’m really not a big crier.

This thing could drag on for a long, long time. People are just going to buy more magnetic ribbons for their cars and line the pockets of the magnet-makers. (Take that as metaphorically as you want.)

I can’t stand to look at the recruiters camped out by the cafeteria at lunch. They come bearing college tuition and a chance for an identity, but all those eighteen year olds who just want to go the school and make the world a better place are going to pay for the tactical mistakes of others. Those are the guys getting killed, fresh from the prom, fresh from their first girlfriend, fresh from playing paint ball or hunting with their dad in the woods.

My predominant thinking now is that we’re smarter than this. We’re too smart to find ourselves in this situation, but here we are. I hope to god this thing gets a lot better in a hurry and Bush looks like a freakin’ genius in twenty years, but I seriously doubt it. History will judge him very harshly.

[frizgolf]

Originally posted by Duemellon
But the 2nd question from a different serviceman must'v also been a member of the liberal media.

Whatevrz.

dlawson's post seems to back Rummy somewhat, but I don't sense an outright conservative opinion in his post. Due, have you grown so used to liberal media bashing from conservs that you've assumed it here? Or have I just not read enough dlawson posts?
Personally, myself being somewhat of a conserv, I applaud the challenge to Rumsfeld. He seems quite insulated and out of touch with the troops. Sure, the question was coached (the article I read says it appeared the soldier was reading from a piece of paper), but it needed to be asked. I think the next questioner felt emboldened by such a well worded question from his comrade. Like silvertone32, soldiers have opinions, but may fear reprisals when expressing them in a public forum while on duty.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by frizgolf
dlawson's post seems to back Rummy somewhat, but I don't sense an outright conservative opinion in his post.whoa there...

Again, my complaint was to the "Right-wing" in general. I read that report bfore & said the same thing when the othr person sent it to me. It wasn't directd at sayin DLaw was conservativ, but more along the lines that it was the thing the cons were focusin on instead of the cheers & the 2nd question.

It's their way of dismissin the question as an insidious ploy to embarass Rums & therefore discountin the whole scenerio by disreagardin the audience's reaction & the 2nd question.

U'kno?

Like when someone gets hung up on spellin, or grammar errors even tho they coulds still read the msg.

[frizgolf]

I gotcha. I thought the conservs got too defensive as well. All along, during the election campaign, I thought sure Rummy's head would roll if Boosh was elected. It's refreshing to see an entrenched warmonger get challenged by one of the troops.

[PeterABnny]

Originally posted by Pretend Girl


Are you serious? That's quite the balls-out generalization there.

I'm a Christian and it pains me to the core when I'm blamed for Bush's reelection.

If that was a joke, disregard, but if it wasn't, explain?


Said half-serious, and I agree that it's a generalization, but is it really that out of line?

I heard during the election that our armed forces were as divided over Bush and Kerry as the home front. They had access to the news media as we did. Maybe not as easy or as fully as us, but they knew what was going on. Now, what were they divided about? Is it so much of a stretch that they were divided over the same issues as us? Silver's help here could either back me up or disprove me.

Only our troops had the added perspective of being at the receiving end of decisions made in Washington. They had three years of being in Iraq to decide what kind of a tag team Bush and Rumsfeld would make, a year and a half of which were spent in combat. In spite of being told they were fighting and dying to topple a leader that posed no direct threat to US security...in spite of fighting and dying in a war poorly-planned and justified by half-baked intelligence and rumor...in spite of looking for weapons that didn't exist nor will ever be found...in spite of the stop-loss program that made their enlistment dates virtually worthless...in spite of everything, here they had the chance for real change in direction, and a shot at full accountability for everything they've had to endure. And, just like back at home, they voted for another four years of Dumbass - and along with him, another four years of his fellow war-mongerer, Rumsfeld.

As I said, I can only guess why the troops voted the way they did. If they voted like the folks back home, evidently they felt morality was a bigger problem facing the country than equipment shortages. And that's what makes me throw up my hands and scream, "Why did you vote for him, then?!"

You're a Christian and it pains you to be blamed for Bush's election, Pretend? I feel for ya, sister - I really do! As a fellow Christian, it disgusts me to the core to see how our religion is whored for the political gain of a group of people more interested in their own agenda than the country as a whole. "Thanks, fellow Christian, for making us look like radical, intolerant, holier-than-thou whackos!" We as a country are going to hell, but it's so nice to know that we have a great moral leader who's so steadfast about sending us there.

Am I the only Christian voice in the wilderness saying there are more important matters facing this country than gay marriage or abortion?

[Johnnylama]

Originally posted by PeterABnny
We as a country are going to hell, but it's so nice to know that we have a great moral leader who's so steadfast about sending us there.
:D
Am I the only Christian voice in the wilderness saying there are more important matters facing this country than gay marriage or abortion?
No you are not. If you're an active Christian, it's so important to let others know!

[noonan]

McCain calls Rumsfeld out (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/14/mccain.ap/index.html)

As for whether or not the question was fed by a reporter, who cares? It's a valid question to which a large number of soldiers obviously wanted an answer.