9/11 Uncovered?

[AntiMushroom]

I just recently was sent a site, and though I am not a believer it does warrant some further thought. The author of this piece suggests that the 9/11 attacks were infact planned and carriend about by none other than Uncle Sam himself. Definately worth the read. As for me I am a little sketch about a lot of the "evidence" but its a different take.

http://www.911uncovered.com/

[tobedawg]

Who's Uncle Same?? He seems too boring to be planning something like that. :D

I believe in conspiracies. I don't actually think that President Bush had anything to do with 9/11, BUT I do think that maybe Dick Cheney, Ashcroft, etc may have had a hand in it. It seemed a little interesting that the President was on Vacation for a month before the attacks.. hmmm.. what good planning? and that workers in the WTC were told to go back to their desks after the first plane hit? OR That when the President was in the Florida classroom, the secret service didn't make more of an effort to protect him?

[markalot]

So the buildings where destroyed by missles shot from the grassy knoll?

[GQuagmire]

Good lord...I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that the events of September 11th were the work of the government (Bush, Cheney or otherwise) had better contact their local mental health professional right away.

True, I am sure there is a lot the government does about which we have no idea. However, some people take things to a completely irrational level - presumably because there are always those who think the world is against them. It's called paranoia (ever see "A Beautiful Mind"?).

Please - give it a rest already.

[GQuagmire]

Oops...wanted to mention...

By all means, spend some time at the link mentioned above. For someone/some group trying to make a case, their explanations are horrendous. There's a reason media and firefighters said it looked like a demolition: that''s exactly how a demolition progresses. The only thing the videos showed me was the effects of pancaking of level upon level and stuff getting squeezed out below. What a waste of time putting that site together.

[vivalamusica]

The site would be a lot more credible to me if they used a black background and large, bright green blinking text.

[markalot]

Originally posted by vivalamusica
The site would be a lot more credible to me if they used a black background and large, bright green blinking text.

I knew something was wrong, but I was going for black text on a blood red background.

[vivalamusica]

Originally posted by markalot


I knew something was wrong, but I was going for black text on a blood red background.

Black on red adds a nice touch of credibility, too. I guess the green on black really only works for UFO sites.:D

[steve7t]

I know its lazy but I really cant be bothered to read thorough the website, im sure its just stuff we have heard in another form a million times before. BUT, I think that without doubt, if 9/11 had not happened then there is ABSOLUTLY NO WAY that George W Bush would get re-elected. That I believe in every ounce of my being. What does this mean…… don’t know!

[back2vinyl]

This is even less plausible than the "Black Helicopters" and one world government the right wingers were talking about back in the Clinton days.

9/11 was a UN plot to take our guns away. Yeah, that's it.

[tobedawg]

Good lord...I'm sorry, but anyone who believes that the events of September 11th were the work of the government (Bush, Cheney or otherwise) had better contact their local mental health professional right away.

Uh no.. I'm a rational human being that KNOWS that my government has been involved in some shady dealings.. Look at how much 9/11 has benefited our government. from Wire taps to Guanatanemo to pulling the wool over people's eyes while they launched a pre-emptive war in Iraq.. Why are we there again?
For you to suggest that people that think this could possibly be a conspiracy to "Contract their local mental health professional right away", I suggest maybe you should try "THINKING" some time..

On a side note, I really don't like the site or the way that it is presented once you get there..

True, I am sure there is a lot the government does about which we have no idea. However, some people take things to a completely irrational level - presumably because there are always those who think the world is against them. It's called paranoia (ever see "A Beautiful Mind"?).

One can also say that having too much faith in their government is what the Germans did in the 1930's..

Please - give it a rest already.

Yeah.. maybe it should just be brought to rest.. Our unelected President that had dealings with the Saudi Royal Family who wasn't chosen by his daddy's buddies on the Supreme Court watches as the nation is polarized upon his election.. He goes on Vacation in August. He goes to Florida on 9/11 and doe a photo-op reading "My Pet Goat".. The secret service come up and whisper in his ear. THEY DON'T try to get him to somewhere that is protected or remove him from the situation..
USUALLY if someone is trying to harm a President the Secret Service cover him and send him to safety.
ON 9/11 workers in the WTC are told to go "back to their desks nothing to see here".
3000 Americans die!
The President makes a speech a few days later, with the "someone has just declared an act of War on America".
Afghanastan is attacked, but where is Osama, the mastermind behind the attacks?
Why was the Saudi Royal Family flown out of the U.S. after 9/11 when no one else could get out of the country?
Have you also noticed that in almost every one of Bush's speeches since the event, he has mentioned September the 11th ad naseum. Obviously this administration is benefitting from this..
What about Cheney's remarks last week?

Kinda makes you think. I didn't actually say that they HAD absolutely anything to do with the attacks, but it is quite possible. They seem to be reaping the benefits of the attacks.

[vivalamusica]

While I won't accuse anyone who believes the theory of being mentally unstable, I don't believe the administration in any way planned or contributed to what happened on 9/11.

Having said that, they did use those events to their advantage in any way they could. The Ashcroft Justice dept. pushed through a Patriot act that was essentially their long-held wish list. Politically, the administration used the events to try to portray Bush as a steady wartime leader, and to paint anyone who disagreed with the president on anything as a traitor who was on the side of the terrorists. You're either with us or against us ...:rolleyes:

[Slar]

Come on people you are really stretching here. Perhaps they are benefitting from the attacks because they are opportunists who used a bad situation to increase their own political power at the expense of the rest of us. Let's review the thought process if this were true:

Dick Cheney: "Ok, I've got an idea to get us more power while we're in office. We'll secretly plan to have middle-eastern terrorists fly planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and the White House. Thousands of people will die, but we'll get more room to put in wire taps, keep soldiers indefinitely in Cuba outside the confines of the Geneva Convention and it will only put a temporary hold on our attempts to invade Iraq. Make sure George gets rested up before we do this, cause we'll all be busy once this plan falls into place."

Come on! I'm no fan of the current administration, but this is just crazy talk. Maybe this website is just a lame, left-wing conspiracy to help discredit the president during an election year. This really is beyond anything resembling rational thought.

[Wolverine]

I'll just ask this one question.

Who told the fighter jets up and down the east coast to stand down? Was it Osama or Saddam? ;) Hmmm... :( :mad:

[vivalamusica]

Originally posted by Wolverine
I'll just ask this one question.

Who told the fighter jets up and down the east coast to stand down? Was it Osama or Saddam? ;) Hmmm... :( :mad:

Obviously it was both of them since, if we're to believe Dick Cheney, they were working together.:rolleyes:

[back2vinyl]

Some people believe that Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor beforehand and allowed it to happen to get us to declare war on Japan and Germany.

Is that what we are saying about the current admistration?

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by back2vinyl
Some people believe that Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor beforehand and allowed it to happen to get us to declare war on Japan and Germany.

Is that what we are saying about the current admistration?

Possibly like that. FDR and the military code breakers did know what was to come but did nothing to stop the pending disaster and in fact added to the carnage. This allowed the U.S. government/media to dive into WWII with the war factories cranked up to 10 on the dial. What's a few deaths among the rich and powerful? They may then move forward in all their glory making powerful speeches and gaining concessions and such from we the people.

I do not know who was behind or involved with 9/11. However, if one believes the story as told by the government/media, one still believes in Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, and Easter Bunny... There's much, much more to this story. I personally loved how it was all wrapped up inside a few days or weeks. BRAVO!!

[AntiMushroom]

hahah thought youd might like to see it... the most ineteresting part of this whole site, however, is the information on Operation Northwood... the media can be taken in any direction but thats a scary thought that the government really considered to attack our own soil...

as i said i am not a believer. far as i know the author of this site could be a thirteen year old boy with acne... ehem...

i do find the collapses interesting however... not pointing fingers at the government, but could the terrorists have rigged explosives in the tower as well?

[BOBROX123]

I love conspiracy theories!!! However, the "charge" explosions are the first thing to catch my attention. Is it possible that the floors inside the building were collapsing upon each other as they burned and the force of the debris would blow out the already damaged windows? I don't know, I'm asking , I took some physics in college, but.... Also, the fact that the writer is constantly using the term "evidence" seems that he/she is trying a bit hard to convince the reader of his validity/truthfulness. To believe that the government is telling us the truth is absurd; but, to believe this theory is a strech and a bit insulting. Flying a plane into a building is tough enough; but, according to our writer friend, being able to fire missiles moments before impact... c'mon, really.

[AntiMushroom]

Originally posted by back2vinyl
Some people believe that Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor beforehand and allowed it to happen to get us to declare war on Japan and Germany.

Is that what we are saying about the current admistration?

this is now fact. And also, the Tonkin Air Engagement which triggered the Vietnam War was also staged by President Johnson... though there was reason to believe an initial engagement on US vessels was coming it turns out it was a very ancy sonar operator. LBJ later claimed of persistent attacks and set the stage for the indochina conflict

[back2vinyl]

Originally posted by Wolverine


Possibly like that. FDR and the military code breakers did know what was to come but did nothing to stop the pending disaster and in fact added to the carnage. This allowed the U.S. government/media to dive into WWII with the war factories cranked up to 10 on the dial. What's a few deaths among the rich and powerful? They may then move forward in all their glory making powerful speeches and gaining concessions and such from we the people.

I do not know who was behind or involved with 9/11. However, if one believes the story as told by the government/media, one still believes in Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, and Easter Bunny... There's much, much more to this story. I personally loved how it was all wrapped up inside a few days or weeks. BRAVO!!

Dude, I'm getting depressed.

[back2vinyl]

Originally posted by AntiMushroom


this is now fact. And also, the Tonkin Air Engagement which triggered the Vietnam War was also staged by President Johnson... though there was reason to believe an initial engagement on US vessels was coming it turns out it was a very ancy sonar operator. LBJ later claimed of persistent attacks and set the stage for the indochina conflict

Yes, I believe this is accurate. LBJ had already decided to go to war and needed political cover.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by back2vinyl


Dude, I'm getting depressed.

Sadly, that's may be why some or many in the U.S. just take the media line lock, stock, and barrel. The more layers one peels back, the stench, audacity, and silent approval from the masses makes one sick and depressed. So, maybe most just throw up their hands and go on with their lives. There's not much we are able to do but discuss issues with people and try to get differing views out there. Many do not care one way or the other as they are too "busy" with their live's. The more books one reads on differing social and political issues/events in this country, the more one may become depressed and lose hope in government and businesses. However, the redeeming lights that I see are the few who I come into contact that possess some of the same views that I hold. I find it incredibly uplifting if I meet just one person who shares an idea that I think of as off the beaten path. It is similar to finding people who like some of the same music artists as I do. They are out there and we just need to speak our minds about topics. Similar to the old town meetings that took place yesteryear. :)

[hp1]

Originally posted by back2vinyl


Yes, I believe this is accurate. LBJ had already decided to go to war and needed political cover.

War was never declared and we already had a presence in Vietnam before Tonkin, but he needed public outcry for escalation.

[GQuagmire]

Originally posted by tobedawg


Uh no.. I'm a rational human being that KNOWS that my government has been involved in some shady dealings.. Look at how much 9/11 has benefited our government. from Wire taps to Guanatanemo to pulling the wool over people's eyes while they launched a pre-emptive war in Iraq.. Why are we there again?
For you to suggest that people that think this could possibly be a conspiracy to "Contract their local mental health professional right away", I suggest maybe you should try "THINKING" some time..




Umm...right, bro. <nodding head and backing away> Spending hours forming complex, irrational delusions is real "thinking". How could I have missed that obvious fact...because everyone knows if you put a lot of time into something, it must be rational and logical.

Like I said, believing that our government has done some shady things is one thing (I think we all believe that), but giving any credibility to that ridiculous website and its theories is going way beyond rational thought. There are so many flaws to point out with that it isn't even funny.

I agree with the other posts - the administration is taking full advantage of 9/11. Then again, I am sure any administration (regardless of party) would do the same thing.

[steve7t]

so the 'facts' that have been established include:
1. the two last major wars the US has been involved in (WW" & Viatnam), the US presidents were aware of major 'situations' or provoked 'existing situations'.
2. Bush's political stratagists must have know within months of him taking office that he was a dead man walking. One word, Karl Rove.
Im not suggesting that the website has any semblence of truth, but to dismiss it as 'ridiculous' is to forget points 1 &2.

[back2vinyl]

Originally posted by hp1


War was never declared and we already had a presence in Vietnam before Tonkin, but he needed public outcry for escalation.

Note that I said "go to war" not "declare war". Only congress can do that. I am still amazed that we put 500,000 troops on the ground in southeast asia without congress ever declaring war.

[jd1]

Originally posted by back2vinyl
Note that I said "go to war" not "declare war". Only congress can do that. I am still amazed that we put 500,000 troops on the ground in southeast asia without congress ever declaring war.

Of course, most of the time when the US has gone to war, it's done so without a formal declaration. This has always been true, since the earliest days of the Republic. Formal declarations are really pretty optional under both US law and international law. After Nam, Congress stepped in and passed new rules to rein in the president's powers somewhat... But he still has legal authority to go out start stuff under our current system.

--JD

[stpdgirl]

The site does pose some "interesting" questions, but I don't buy all of it. I certainly believe that 9/11 served a purpose to the current administration. I saw a pre-showing of a movie last night at Miami called "Hijacking Catastrophe: 9/11, Fear, and The Selling of American Empire. This movie is what Fahrenheit 9/11 isn't. Don't get me wrong, I think F9/11 generated a lot of good discussion and debate and brought to light a lot of good questions, but this movie (co-produced by Sut Jhally, if any of you are familiar with him) doesn't leave much room for doubt and doesn't rely on spinnable facts and humor, just cold hard chilling evidance linked together to paint a pretty damaging picture. Just as I stated on the 9/11 movie discussion thread a few months ago, truth is subjective, so believe it or don't, but you can't watch this movie and not believe that something is horribly wrong with our government. You can look it up, buy it, or see where it is showing at Hijackingcatastrophe.org
According to the site, it will be shown at the Mt Lookout Grill Oct 1-7. I also know it will be shown at Miami again 9/24/04 at 4pm in 128 Pearson Hall in Oxford. Sut Jhally will be giving a lecture then too.

This can be filed under sickeningly scary: I just had a conversation with a coworker who refused to believe that Osama doesn't live in Iraq or that we are not there searching for him and Al-Qa'ida. She doesn't live under a rock, but she is a Bush supporter and so is her entire family.

me: not one of the 19 hijackers were from Iraq, 15 were from Saudi Arabia, same as Bin Laden.

co-worker: How do you know that?

Me: That they were from S.A.?

CW: no, that OBL isn't from Iraq.

ME: Because it is no secret, he isn't from Iraq.

CW: But how do you know that?

Me: (after staring dumbfounded for what seemed forever, I pointed at her computer) look it up, he isn't from Iraq. (how else could I prove it, I don't have his birth certificate)

CW: How do I know to believe it?

Me: There is no link between Iraq and OBL or AQ. That isn't top secret info. The current administration tried to sell us that lie, and now deny that they did, even though there is footage of them (All of them: Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rice, and Powell) stating so. They are now trying to say they never said there was a link. Every news outlet in the world has footage of it because they said it a gazillion times in press conference after press conference in the days following 9/11. Osama isn't in Iraq. Hussein ran a secular government, and Al-Qa'ida is an extremist religious group. Hussein had no interst in their cause and had his own access to oil, he had nothing to do with 9/11. We aren't hunting Osama in Iraq because he isn't and never was there.

CW: Well, then why are we there?

That was an honest to god conversation. How insane is that? Not only did she refuse to believe me, but she refused to seek out info for herself. She stated that she doesn't want to live in a world were she has to question the government and the world that she lives in, she just has to have trust in them that they are doing what they believe is right. I said that just because you don't want to believe it, doesn't make it not true. You can't close your eyes and pretend that these things don't go on. what sense does that make?

I also received a few personal attacks recently on my Geology class discussion board due to my expression of dislike for Bush. It is really disturbing, the ignorance that is so abundant.

[AntiMushroom]

stpdgirl... you give me renewed hope in humanity. cheers

[GQuagmire]

stpdgirl - that person is scary ignorant. She gives Republicans a bad name. Of course, many people (myself included) feel that Michael Moore gives the whole anti-Bush movement a bad name.

I don't ever remember hearing the US claim Osama was in Iraq. It was always Afghanistan. That's why we went there first and remain there today. They've said from the beginning that they believe Iraq harbored or even supported terrorists, including A-Q. Given all we DO know about Saddam and his regime, that wouldn't be much of a shock to anyone. This is one of those things that would be tough to prove, but I've not seen anything to definitively disprove it either.

[stpdgirl]

In my co-workers defense, she is a very kind and sweet women, but she is severely un/misinformed.

It is well documented, as I stated before, that Bush's office tried to lead us to believe there was a connection between Saddam and Bin Laden, but they now deny it.

Officail verdict (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0617-03.htm)

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by GQuagmire
I don't ever remember hearing the US claim Osama was in Iraq. It was always Afghanistan.the prob is that they intentionally never said that in a singl sentence, it was always thru inference.

however, the inferrd bit was quite clear & unmistakeable.

[frizgolf]

http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/Summer_Training/KaeAvenueES/THREADS.GIFhttp://images.andale.com/f2/120/109/1413161/click2enlarge/1097015134295_Wri_Morgan_ball_1.jpg!!!!!!!

[markalot]

Good post stpdgirl, but rember not to lump. There are a lot of idiots in the world and I'm not so certain the Bush supporters have more of them :) Seriously, it's depressing.

[AntiMushroom]

its a pretty no win battle this time around... i vote for charlie sheen

[tobedawg]

She gives Republicans a bad name

That's really hard to do:rolleyes:

[tobedawg]

Umm...right, bro. <nodding head and backing away> Spending hours forming complex, irrational delusions is real "thinking". How could I have missed that obvious fact...because everyone knows if you put a lot of time into something, it must be rational and logical.

Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald assasinated JFK? Do you believe there was a REAL reason we were in Vietnam?

Like I said, believing that our government has done some shady things is one thing (I think we all believe that), but giving any credibility to that ridiculous website and its theories is going way beyond rational thought. There are so many flaws to point out with that it isn't even funny.

Oh yeah.. You're right.. Our government wouldn't lie to us, especially with Bush at the Wheel.. He is an honest, Christian Man from Texas. So are Cheney and Ashcroft honest men. Anybody that loses a Senate race to a dead man is really worth my trust in national security. Gotta love Rumsfeld too! He worked for none other than the King of Integrity, Richard Nixon.

I guess questioning such great men is irrational.. Sorry! I'll sit down, shut up, and live in fear but know that If Bush/Cheney doesn't win in November, we'll probably get attacked again!

BTW: I never said that the website was the absolute truth. I did say that it was poorly written, but it does raise some serious questions.

[stpdgirl]

Originally posted by markalot
Good post stpdgirl, but rember not to lump. There are a lot of idiots in the world and I'm not so certain the Bush supporters have more of them :) Seriously, it's depressing.

Not lumping here. I didn't say that she is a Bush supporter, therefore she is uninformed. I said that she is a Bush supporter AND she is uninformed. It is, however, my personal opinion, that if you are a Bush Supporter, you are uninformed to some degree...or else you are just evil and don't mind if corrupt, manipulative, warmongers bent on world domination lead our country for 4 more years. Just my opinion. :D

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/media/B-IfNotOutraged.gif

[stpdgirl]

Originally posted by stpdgirl
Just as I stated on the 9/11 movie discussion thread a few months ago, truth is subjective, so believe it or don't, but you can't watch this movie and not believe that something is horribly wrong with our government. You can look it up, buy it, or see where it is showing at Hijackingcatastrophe.org
According to the site, it will be shown at the Mt Lookout Grill Oct 1-7. I also know it will be shown at Miami again 9/24/04 at 4pm in 128 Pearson Hall in Oxford. Sut Jhally will be giving a lecture then too.

Here is the accurate info:

When: Tuesday, September 21, 7:30 pm
Where: 46 Culler (building across Spring St. from the Shriver Center)
AND 2 Upham (where weekly films are being shown Tuesday nights at 6:15pm)

More on this powerful documentary can be found at
http://www.hijackingcatastrophe.org/ . The film screenings next week are
in anticipation of a visit to Miami by the man behind the film, Dr. Sut
Jhally, on Thursday September 23, 4 pm, 128 Pearson. Please spread the
word, come if you can, and bring your friends.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by stpdgirl
Here is the accurate info:

When: Tuesday, September 21, 7:30 pm
Where: 46 Culler (building across Spring St. from the Shriver Center)
AND 2 Upham (where weekly films are being shown Tuesday nights at 6:15pm)

More on this powerful documentary can be found at
http://www.hijackingcatastrophe.org/ . The film screenings next week are
in anticipation of a visit to Miami by the man behind the film, Dr. Sut
Jhally, on Thursday September 23, 4 pm, 128 Pearson. Please spread the
word, come if you can, and bring your friends.
I saw Hijacking Catastrophe.

I suggest those who r riding the fence to watch it. & those who hav decided to favor Bush to watch it so they can actually see what the other ppl r seeing & debate the facts intelligently instead of sayin "b/c Bush said so". This film is much less sensational than Moore's film & steers clear away from conspiracy theories mainly focusin on what was actually done, not what was theoretically done/not done.

So I suggest this for Bushies & fence-sitters. Those who alrdy hav a set opinion that 9/11 & the Iraq War were based on dubious motivations can skip it.... well... let me take that back... u should see it to.

Really, Bushies should see it, it provides an intelligent non-emotionalized viewpoint that is easy to discuss about.

[GQuagmire]

Originally posted by tobedawg


Oh yeah.. You're right.. Our government wouldn't lie to us, especially with Bush at the Wheel.. He is an honest, Christian Man from Texas. So are Cheney and Ashcroft honest men. Anybody that loses a Senate race to a dead man is really worth my trust in national security. Gotta love Rumsfeld too! He worked for none other than the King of Integrity, Richard Nixon.

I guess questioning such great men is irrational.. Sorry! I'll sit down, shut up, and live in fear but know that If Bush/Cheney doesn't win in November, we'll probably get attacked again!

BTW: I never said that the website was the absolute truth. I did say that it was poorly written, but it does raise some serious questions.

You're missing the point - and debating with yourself. lol

I was not talking about the honesty of our government. In fact, I even concurred that they aren't honest.

Now, back to the point yet again...and pay attention this time. One, taking dishonesty to the level of 9/11 is a serious stretch - plain and simple. We're talking about murdering almost 3,000 people. Second, even if you DID believe 9/11 was home-brewed, if you believe it due to anything on that site you DO need help. Everything it refers to as "evidence" or proof is not even close to either. Small details of the explosions and the ensuing collapses that are natural results given the physics of what happened are viewed in a completely twisted manner. Quotes from firefighters and the media are taken out of context. It doesn't show anything, nor is it remotely plausible. It's as if a child were trying to spin some outlandish tale to his parents about how the crayon drawings got on the wall.