well, anyone still tryin to say it was "okay"?

[Duemellon]

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/03/loc_loc1ajones.html

Tuesday, August 3, 2004
Police board suggests discipline


______________________________________________
Report: Officers hit Jones too long

By Jane Prendergast
Enquirer staff writer

Cincinnati's independent police oversight agency believes three police officers used excessive force in the death last year of Nathaniel Jones and wants severe discipline for them.

The officers hit Jones for too long, the Citizen Complaint Authority said in recommendations released Monday night, and the obese man who'd ingested PCP and cocaine was no longer resisting when he was on his hands and knees.
...
In addition, the authority concluded that the three officers and four others failed to follow correct procedure in leaving Jones lying on his stomach too long and failing to recognize that he was in danger of asphyxiating. It recommended retraining for all seven officers.
...
_________________________________________
But the next question is...
What really is going to happen to the police now?

anything?............. anything?

[postfeminist]

due,
i think you know the answer.

and if you don't, it's NO.

[classicgrrl]

actually, on cincymusic.com there are folks over there still saying it was ok.

[weezer6]

Originally posted by Duemellon

The officers hit Jones for too long, the Citizen Complaint Authority said in recommendations released Monday night, and the obese man who'd ingested PCP and cocaine was no longer resisting when he was on his hands and knees.

[/B]

was he complying? how do you know that a guy who just tried to kill you is done? he may have just been taking a break, waiting for his second wind. what sign did he give that he could now be trusted?

[DaysWithoutEnd]

I think at some point you give the benefit of the doubt.

The way he was waving his arms was much more "please don't hit me no more!" than "hey i'm gonna kill you!"

[Necromancer]

It was ok.

They only killed one guy.

Chalk one up to exeperience.



(I think I offended myself again)

[BigSugar]

disagree on excessive force. agree that they left him lay on his stomach too long which contributed to his death. I'll just wait for the first black person to die from a tazer incident so that people can lose their minds and everyone can bitch about how awful tazers are and that the police should subdue every violent offender with soft fluffy down pillows.

[DaysWithoutEnd]

Originally posted by BigSugar
the police should subdue every violent offender with soft fluffy down pillows.

Mmm, that sounds nice. Sign me up!

[weezer6]

Originally posted by Necromancer
It was ok.

They only killed one guy.

Chalk one up to exeperience.



(I think I offended myself again)

yeah, they just up and killed him. poor guy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, minding his own business, and the fuzz just killed him for nothing.

[Necromancer]

Originally posted by weezer6


yeah, they just up and killed him. poor guy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, minding his own business, and the fuzz just killed him for nothing.

We all know that didn't happen.

[angryj5]

It was ok.

They only killed one guy.

Chalk one up to exeperience.



(I think I offended myself again)

theyre getting pretty good at murdering unarmed citizens

It recommended retraining for all seven officers.

how about lobotomies instead of another few paid weeks at the "academy"....rule 1, shoot first, ask questions later if suspect is still alive. rule 2 deny all responsibility....

[wileE]

Originally posted by DaysWithoutEnd
I think at some point you give the benefit of the doubt.

The way he was waving his arms was much more "please don't hit me no more!" than "hey i'm gonna kill you!"

You don't know that. You weren't there. You didn't have a very large man struggling with you. Looked to me like he was trying to grab the club or officer.

It is so easy to look back and pass judgement from a safe distance. If you felt your life was threatened, wouldn't you be doing everything in your power to remove that threat? Would you know when to stop? Policemen put there life on the line for us and then get shit on by everybody.

[DaysWithoutEnd]

They only get sh*t when they kill somebody.
That's not in the job description.

Most of them do good work and deserve respect.

[Necromancer]

These guys made a mistake that killed a man.
Use of excessive force deserves some shit.
I realize that it was a situation where you could lose control easily fearing for your life, but these are highly trained law enforcement professionals. They should be able to subdue anyone, even someone of his size.

[PeterABnny]

Originally posted by angryj5


theyre getting pretty good at murdering unarmed citizens



Unarmed?? Tell you what, my friend, if I had some 6-plus-foot-tall, 300-pound, hopped-up-on-drugs neanderthal suddenly lunge at me, I ain't exactly going to feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

I hate the police as much as anyone, but even I have a hard time accepting the whole brutality thing in this case. From what I saw on the video, at the end he may have been tired, but he still looked far from finished.

Tell me, has the black community ever heard of the concept of personal responsibility? *slaps forehead* Dammit! That's right - NOBODY believes in taking responsibility for their own actions anymore! Nevermind... :rolleyes:

[weezer6]

to solve this problem, i think the police force needs to be doubled. that way, police officers can spend half of their time in training, acting out every foreseeable police situation possible. they then can officially be "highly trained". they need to have hours and hours of practice at being attacked, to ensure they stay completely calm while someone tries to beat the shit out of them. wait, i know an organization that trains like that, but even more.....let's bring in the u.s. army.

[PeterABnny]

Originally posted by Frost


i'm going to take personal responsibility and call you an ass.

how about that :)


Well, thank you, Mr. Frost. It's about time somebody did! :D


"i hate the police as much as anyone"....wtf?

i don't hate "the police". I don't know why anyone would hate "the police". now, if you're talking about officers who kill people and abuse their power, yeah, i don't like those women and men. If you're lumping them all together and saying they're all like that, then you have a problem and shame on you. :P


Okie, let me clarify. Yes, I was referring to those officers who kill and abuse people (slamming elderly Alzheimers [sp] patients to the ground, pumping suspects full of lead when they were armed with only a brick, that kinda thing), and all the while nothing EVER happens to them (actually, they get paid vacations- er, I mean leaves). Every rare once in a while, a bad apple will lose his job, but the "independent" arbitrator who handles said bad apple's case from there can always be counted on to rule in favor of the police.

Now granted, my contact with Cincinnati Police always has been admittedly limited. But it seems to me whenever I did need a cop's help, the officer always seemed rude, curt or possessed this whole air of superiority. Indeed, the last time I needed to go to the police was when my car was broken into. After cleaning up the mess and taking pictures, I drove to the appropriate district headquarters whenupon the officer at the window seemed completely uninterested in me or my crime. It was then that I knew that those brave souls who were protecting and serving me weren't going to do shit.

Whether in person or from coverage in the news, I might be forgiven - I hope - if I have a less-than-favorable opinion of the Cinci police. But before you go and attempt to give me a new suit of feathers, know that I have a much favorable opinion of the Deep Park Police, and one of my close pals from college is a Cinci cop.



perhaps you missed the newsbrief but the job of the police is to protect and serve the community.

once he was on the ground, protecting the community meant handcuffing him and getting him off to jail, not sitting on him. nobody in the community was served by the excessive blows and sitting on the guy. they simply weren't.

it's the "common man" fallacy that due exposed long long long ago. you could see them, not acting as trained professionals, but instead letting their emotions and ego get the best of them.

hell, you can see that watching an episode of cops. some officers feel like they need to boost their egos by treating people like shit. in this case, it wasn't so much the danger that fat albert posed, as much as it was the affront that he attacked them. and yes, he did attack them.

but once they had him on the ground, it was over. no time for "time outs" on the ground in a position it's hard to breathe in.


True, but you do realize why it would be a valid tactic to sit on someone, don't you? To keep them on the ground and keep them from getting back up? The army probably has some similar tactic. Or, maybe they thought fat albert would make a very comfy bean bag chair...



if you want some fucking personal responsibility, how about streicher step down?

how about the cops step up and say "oops".

because that's all it would take. some personal responsibility on the part of the police. we understand that you're human, even if a trained professional.

for me, at least, all it would take is a press conference with them saying "we're so sorry about what happened".

but perhaps that happened and i missed it during streicher's adamant defending and posturing :rolleyes:


Oh, I agree completely! If they did something wrong, they should admit it! I would pay money to see Chief Streicher (rhymes with Reich-er, hmmmm) step down. I don't doubt that the police might have done something wrong. Maybe they sent the ambulance off too soon. Maybe they were too late to call it. Maybe in the heat of things they forgot their training. Maybe they went to get another donut instead of seeing to Jones - who the hell knows? The point of this post is whether or not the police used excessive force on the black Telletubby, not what happened afterward. And, in my opinion, they didn't.

[PeterABnny]

Originally posted by Frost
lol, "the black teletubby?"

i called him fat albert orginally to describe his appearance, don't get it twisted. some people haven't seen the tapes, so i wanted an image that they could relate to, since by all accounts, skip was like fat albert, affable, cool guy and very heavy set. he had a bad day(he was having a bad month or two, actually) and ended up dead.

don't get it twisted and think i was just generally making fun of him.

by the way, the excessibold text is so cute


Heh.. I was trying to trying to figure out how to get those lines around your quotes, but the bold text became an unintentional result. Sow-ry. :)

[weezer6]

Originally posted by Frost


right! because when faced with a completely solvable problem, it's quite rational to fly off the handle with wildly ridiculous suggestions.

you and big sugar are good at that.

why does it pain you so to have to address this problem? people suggest solutions and you're acting like solving this problem is like trying to land a rocket powered school bus on saturn.

damn i get sick of this shit

i didn't suggest additional training. the board did. what the board wants is basically impossible, they want to "train" the human element out of police procedure.

for this case, as suggested by the board, the cops should have relied on their "how to stay calm and follow all procedures to the tee while subduing, a huge, drugged up, attacking but out of shape and weak hearted fellow" training.

in the future, what happens when they encounter the pissed off, gun shooting, i don't give a shit terminally ill granny? they know if they don't follow procedures to the letter, or have to make judgement calls based on the situation, they will have every move scrutinized by a committee, after the fact. maybe the procedure will be: if confronted by a situation that does not fit into a specific training scenario, call the review board for guidance, or have them come out and handle it.

[Emperor Wog]

One Word: ED-209

http://www.jeffbots.com/ed_209-2.jpg

[drexel dave]

Police serve. But they sure as hell don't protect.

[paranoidandroid]

The NAACP also has said officers should have backed up and let Jones continue swinging until he was tired. The group had called the incident another example of a police department out of control.

you gotta be kidding me?

maybe just wait until the unarmed suspect becomes armed. :rolleyes:



Jones was a classic example, France said, of the type of suspect the officers should have seen was an candidate for positional asphyxia - involved in a protracted struggle, obese and on his stomach.



i'm sure that's the first thing officers will think of now when they get called to the next crime scene with a wacked out guy on drugs.


one of the things you learn after years of dealing with drug people, is that EVERYTHING is serious. you can turn your back on a person---but never turn your back on a drug.

Hunter S. Thompson

[paranoidandroid]

getting the drugged fat men, drug dealers, etc. of the world to value their own life is a start too. bad month, bad day, whatever. taking responsibility is also a good thing. on both sides.






once the community knows and can see that the police are valuing the black life, you won't see a lot of people attacking police, recording angry rap songs against them, or the like.


like cop killer?

[weezer6]

frost, bitch, i'd agree with you, but not in this particular instance. it is my opinion that everything being the same, the dude would have died had he been white.

let me ask you this. if you are physically attacked, who's life do you value most? yours or the attackers? does it matter what color the attacker is?

most likely, no matter the circumstance, you value your own life most. when you are attacked, i believe that the value of the attackers life drops dramatically, no matter who they are. how soon after the attack do the levels come back to normal? it sounds like people expect the cops to have a switch: guy tries to kill me, i subdue him to some extent, i make my evaluation that he is 100% not a threat anymore, and flick the switch to good 'ole mom treatment.

i guess since the dude was getting tired, that was the signal for 100% safety, and everything was supposed to go back to normal. the cops missed it, and appeared to stay somewhat apprehensive. crazy sons-a-bitches.

[paranoidandroid]

actually, I love that song. kinda sucks when you don't pay attention to the words, huh?

oh you got me there! i mean how could i not listen to

"die die die pig die"

that will get most people's attention right?

oh, i forgot ice t was just telling "us" what is like.

don't get me wrong ice t can write a song about whatever the fuck he wants...but let's not kid ourselfs as to what ice t's main objective was to writing this song.

[paranoidandroid]

Originally posted by Frost
kinda sucks when you don't listen to all the words, huh?

just for you, i'm going to listen to that today. i have the tape.

go ahead...admit it...you love me for having the tape ;)

you know you do, big boy, come on

i owned that CD...yes the man said CD before the white man removed or altered the track "cop killer"

but i'll admit it..i love you for having the TAPE of it. listen to it and my fave song that goes something like:

"you wanna get high as the sky"

"but the winners lose it all someday"


listen to ice-t strain the vocal chords to hit the notes.

[weezer6]

frost, you're right. the racist cops intentionally murdered jones because he was black. nothing else influenced or contributed to the situation, just the fact that he was black and had no life value.

[paranoidandroid]

Originally posted by Frost
.
gonna get the tape and blast it out the windows like i did back in like 1996...in a beat up old car with no air conditioning ;)

if your car was a 1986 blue escort with shitty treble dominated stereo speakers...

then things are getting way to familiar here :)

[weezer6]

yes, you are right, they intentionally killed him.

[bluelupis]

How do you guys get those "tm" marks to go in there?

[The Mad Hater]

or the "r" with the circle?

[bluelupis]

Originally posted by The Mad Hater
or the "r" with the circle?
Yeah, or the "c" with the circle.

[weezer6]

Originally posted by Frost


damn. guess that cat is stuck up the tree while you overshoot the 20 foot high branch it's on and careen into a binary star millions of light years away :rolleyes:

Captain Exaggero!™ overshoots again!

up up and awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!

c'mon man, i agree with you and you complain? the cops were/are killers. how am i exaggerating? you said they killed him after they cuffed him. (text pasted in below) and i f i'm not mistaken, you stated they killed him because he was black, and his life was of little value in the cops eyes.
Originally posted by Frost

He shouldn't have attacked police. one wrong move and he could have had their guns and killed one of them or himself in the ensuing struggle. and that, my caped friend, is scary. So he should have been punished harshly for that, once they subdued him and put the cuffs on. oh but wait, they killed him once they put the cuffs on, so he never got to GET punished.

what i'd like to know, is assuming you're correct, how do you train the racist out of someone, or a group of people.

[Duemellon]

1st - I do not want the normal citizen to b a cop, a soldier, a firefighter, or a politician.

I do not want the untrained Frost, the underequippd Sheck, or the corrupt 4t2 to b a cop. I want my civil servants to b prepared for the shit they gonna face.

I m not prepared.

2nd - Training cannot possibly cover every possible scenerio. Furthermore, even if they were to cover 8,324 specific scenerios, it is counter-intuitive & restrictiv. The concept behind trainin is not to cover specific scenerios but to lay out principles, rules of engagement, and goals.

To hav a scenerio where u say "If a 6'3" person/w a 4" knife is standing 4' from u running at 15mph, then do (a)" means u'r incapable of dealing/w a 6'2" one in the same situation.

when ppl say "u can't train for evry scenerio so u can't say there was a way they could b prepared for that specific one" is makin an xtreme statement.

U train in guidelines, principles, etc. If a person is comin at u like X then u do whatever u can keeping in mind that ur goals are Y & Z but definitely not W.

If the person in that position can't keep goals X & Y in mind while avoiding W, then they shouldn't b a cop plz see my 1st point.

3rd - The statement that they need to see all ppl they interact in the same way they treat their kin could b reversed to say they should treat their own kin as they do the ppl they interact with. It's about recognizing the humanity w/i everyone.

4th - Claimin that we cannot tell what happened there b/c we don't hav enuf information is absolutely absurd. We have 1 video covering the 1st swing by Nate. We have 1 other vid covering EMS's departure. We hav serial photos of Nate around the perimeter. What happened in dialogue is important but it doesn't compare/w what u can see when u see the whole thing.

Note that...

We can see a lot more than u'r givin us credit for.

Nate was done. He stopped fighting. In fact, there's even question to how he was reactin shortly into the melee. After he attackd the 1st cop & was down, was he just defendin himself from the cops' blows?

U can see the look of the situation. Him fallin to the ground & tryin to get back up/w cops pummellin him until he was down again.

5th - final point:
the independent commission was set up by the city to b independent. Does this mean nothin to u?

[angryj5]

no the army should not be enforcing the law, you guys are morons if you want the army or any other military branch dealing with domestic law; theyre not trained in the same way at all and for good reason.

the war on drugs is a sham but thats an entirely different thread.

if the cops are scared of 6'3" black men, they shouldnt be cops, go be a security guard at walmart or target and catch shoplifters, they'll still be protecting the corporate interests, errr i mean community interests :rolleyes:.

how many of you white folks on the board live in a neighborhood with a lot, or any blacks. its pretty common fact, though raely mentioned, that minorities are more apt (its not genetic, just a consequence of the social situation) to commit crimes and thus bring down the property value. this is its own thread as well, but dont think for a second that race isnt a factor in this case; the more minorties being arrested the more the majority feels safe; especially big tall scary drug-addicted minorities.

how many white people do the cops sit on and kill, or shoot and accidently kill? white people abuse drugs too, its not limited to race or sex or social class. ive driven through cheviot and price hill and other neighborhoods in/around cincinnati and have seen a lot more white people acting hostile and dangerous to the community than black or hispanic people.

police racial/bias issues arent just a Cincinnati problem, its all over the country, LA to Denver to Milwaukee to Philadelphia. these are serious issues and should not be brushed aside as accidents.

[paranoidandroid]

start>racism>this side>that side>start>racism>this side>that side>start...

start>pissed>vent>woxy boards

start>dry>cynic>football>beer>music>karma>paranoidandroid


go bengals.

[Bronzetree]

Originally posted by paranoidandroid
don't get me wrong ice t can write a song about whatever the fuck he wants...but let's not kid ourselfs as to what ice t's main objective was to writing this song.

Am I the only one who sees the irony in the fact that he plays a cop on TV now?




I was gonna post something about how the endless argument trudges on, but I won't, can't and no longer have an interest in winning. The Ice-T thing is a lot safer.

[Wondertastic]

I'm all for excessive force prevention.

It's called don't commit crimes and if the cops ask you to put your hands behind your back, do it.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for criminal elements, since they are driving this city into the ground.

[PeterABnny]

Originally posted by angryj5

how many white people do the cops sit on and kill, or shoot and accidently kill?



I dunno, but I would imagine as many that are resisting arrest or assulting officers. I'm pretty sure it's not written into police policy to only sit on and kill minority suspects...

[weezer6]

Originally posted by PeterABnny



I dunno, but I would imagine as many that are resisting arrest or assulting officers. I'm pretty sure it's not written into police policy to only sit on and kill minority suspects...

i've seen plenty of footage of white folks getting squashed. since they didn't die, though, nobody questions the procedure.

[Wondertastic]

Originally posted by weezer6


i've seen plenty of footage of white folks getting squashed. since they didn't die, though, nobody questions the procedure.

just watch an episode of cops. they spend the majority of their time beating down white trash.

[PeterABnny]

Originally posted by weezer6


i've seen plenty of footage of white folks getting squashed. since they didn't die, though, nobody questions the procedure.


Which brings me to a question I've been wondering for the longest time... Why is it that when a notorious drug dealer or some other individual who's a detriment to the neighborhood is beaten and such in one neighborhood the cops are a hero, but villains in another? For example, a white drug dealer selling drugs, degrading the neighborhood & etc. is busted and beaten in a white neighborhood, the whites there say good show and thanks for helping to clean up the community. But a black drug dealer in a black neighborhood is busted and beaten by cops and the community rallies behind the drug dealer and cries police brutality and racism. Why? Why is there such a solidarity with the criminal element in a black neighborhood but not in the white? Does the black community so hate and fear the police that they take the side of the very people who are degrading it? I heard on the news yesterday of firefighers being shot with a pellet gun as they were trying to help someone in the West End or Over The Rhine. What the hell is up with that?! It all seems like perfect madness to me.

[bluelupis]

Originally posted by Frost


damn, if only you could read.

i spelled it all out. it's right fucking there. READ, will you?

damn!

Yo messin' wit my E motions Smokey!

http://home.snafu.de/fablab/queerview/281friday/foto281df.jpg

[paranoidandroid]

adhere to all posted signs....

http://www.wilkaresfunsims.com/downloads/regobjects/image/2way.gif

[markalot]

Do we have an example of a white guy got doped up and attacked people / police and the police did not use excessive force or treated him any differently?

Seems like if we did the problem might be apparent.

The problem with this incident is that the cops did not switch gears and help the guy out once he stopped struggling. The attitude should be to think every time force is used to make sure it's needed, so he would have been hit a couple of times and then cuffed.

People are trying to argue as if this was a textbook example of excessive force, or an out of control criminal, and it's not textbook on either side.

[Slar]

Equal rights for Amphipods!

http://www.shimoda.tsukuba.ac.jp/~seitai/amphipod.gif

[bluelupis]

Why is it okay to chop off frogs' legs and not beat down a violent drugged up three hundred plus pound man? Frogs' Rights Now!

http://www.assurdo.it/absurd/img/cazzate4/Frog_Legs.jpg

[PeterABnny]

Originally posted by Frost


damn, if only you could read.

i spelled it all out. it's right fucking there. READ, will you?

damn!

I did, and you still didn't answer my question.

But, seeing how you're already in the know, perhaps you could also help out the war effort and go to Iraq. Explain to the insurgents there how all their killing and sabotaging is only hurting their own people, 'cause brudder - it's the same exact thing happening over there!

[Duemellon]

Why do ppl think that any form of resistance to cops opens u up to the possibility of death? Do u really want a group of ppl that r that powerful & immune to criticism that they could kill u?

Analogy time:
Imagine u were in ur office, being one of the rare ppl who wears a suit & tie to work, when some insane guy comes in & starts blastin away who he thinks r management. Now, u rn't management, but u dress like one. The guy says "anyone who isn't management can stand up & leave!" U see ur coworkers standin up & he doesn't shoot them & they leave. U see ur boss stand up, who's wearin just a tie/w a button-down, & the guy blows him away.

When u see that this guy really only reacts to how u look, r u gonna trust his judgement to b fair & listen to ur story when u stand up, or just blo u away?
_________________________________
In a city where cops r famous for killin blacks in custody, & not killin any whites in-custody, u kind'v don't want to wait to find out if he's gonna "blo u away."

Runnin sounds like a pretty fuckin good idea.

[paranoidandroid]

Originally posted by Duemellon

Runnin sounds like a pretty fuckin good idea.


so does:

not being a drug dealer
not being jacked up on pcp
not having multiple warrants out for you

do those warrant a death sentence? nope.

but to insinuate that these
guys kill people just because how they look, with no other circumstances involved, is stretching the truth just a bit in my book.

which incident in cincinnati where cops have killed balcks in custody DID NOT start out with a police chase etc. ??

that is a serious question...because i don't know.

[yoshomon]

Originally posted by PeterABnny
Tell me, has the black community ever heard of the concept of personal responsibility? *slaps forehead* Dammit! That's right - NOBODY believes in taking responsibility for their own actions anymore! Nevermind... :rolleyes:

I actually sat down with the black community last night, and they had heard of personal responsibility! In fact, the black community remarked, "shouldn't cops be held responsible when they kill people? shouldn't governments be held responsible when they continue racist drug policies? shouldn't schools be held responsible when they don't educate children?"

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by paranoidandroid
which incident in cincinnati where cops have killed balcks in custody DID NOT start out with a police chase etc. ??

that is a serious question...because i don't know. Owensby, Carpenter, Jones...but to insinuate that these guys kill people just because how they look, with no other circumstances involved, is stretching the truth just a bit in my book.the way u phrased that made it sound as if someone said the whites were out lookin for a black person to kill.

no one said that.

It's about the approach. It's about how the goals of trainin r changd in practice. It's about how the black person isn't viewd as a black person in their eyes.

Stop tryin to polarize it by takin statements about an inability to project humanity on others & makin them into a conscience decision to kill someone based on race.

The point is that there is a noted difference between those who hav died & those who hav not & to pretend that there is no coincidence is delusional. Takin this to the next thing & understandin the context it is occurrin in makes is clear there is a diff set of rules for blacks v. white suspects.
___________________________
oh yah:
I <3 Yosh

[paranoidandroid]

Originally posted by Duemellon

the way u phrased that made it sound as if someone said the whites were out lookin for a black person to kill.

no one said that.

what gave me that idea? maybe this quote...


In a city where cops r famous for killin blacks in custody, & not killin any whites in-custody, u kind'v don't want to wait to find out if he's gonna "blo u away."

sorry if i misunderstood.



the point is the way you phrase your arguments is that cincy cops go seeking and destroying through the streets of cincinnati..looking for the next black person to kill without any prevocation. which isn't true.



this is a two-way street for the 2nd time.

[Wondertastic]

Originally posted by yoshomon

shouldn't schools be held responsible when they don't educate children?"

Um, they can't be educated if they skip school constantly.

[markalot]

This city is full of racists, both black and white.

If the cincy cops didn't have a string of deaths on their hands I would look at this differently. Basicly I don't care if a black/white/red/purple/maroon person gets killed because he/she takes drugs and attacks officers.

I D O N ' T C A R E

But taken in context I think it has to be recognized that the cincy police training is not adequate and it's not a human behavior problem. Other cities don't have these problems, what the hell is different?

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by paranoidandroid
sorry if i misunderstood.

the point is the way you phrase your arguments is that cincy cops go seeking and destroying through the streets of cincinnati..looking for the next black person to kill without any prevocation. which isn't true.

this is a two-way street for the 2nd time. u did misunderstand & inject ur own idea to what I was sayin into it.

Nowhere in there do I say, or even imply, that the police go patrolin around lookin for a black person to kill. What I laid out for u was the reaction in response to the pattern of in-custody deaths.

There is nothin in there that even remotely points to what u'r sayin it means.

& MaL, that's logic speakin. Just plain ol' logic.

[Wondertastic]

Originally posted by markalot
Other cities don't have these problems, what the hell is different?
This happens all the time.

In other cities people don't make a big racial deal out of everything.

For example, up in Detroit, they had a white cop run over a black suspect with his car during a chase. It was buried 14 pages back in the newspaper.

[Content Chick]

If a white medical professional makes a mistake that results in the death of a black patient we don't automatically assume it was racially motivated. I do realize there are some racist cops and racial profiling does go on but not every time there is a death at the hands of police officers is it a racial situation. Sometimes it is just a mistake...a misjudgment...fatigue...frustration...bad training...whatever. Cops are human. They deal with the lowest denominator of our society every day. They arrest the same people over and over again. They have remarks made about them like "I hate cops as much as the next person." They do the job that many of don't want to or can't. Obviously bad cops need to go but who is going to step up and take their place? Who is going to create and provide proper training? Who is going to provide the money to do this? Who is going to make being a police officer an honorable and respectable position so that it attracts the right people?

[classicgrrl]

Us and Them
And after all we're only ordinary men
Me, and you
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do

Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died
And the General sat, as the lines on the map
moved from side to side

Black and Blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and Down
And in the end it's only round and round and round

-->Us and Them: Pink Floyd

[paranoidandroid]

Originally posted by Frost
oh it's a 2-way street alright.

Only one side is a narrow dirt road, withered and poor,

and the other side is a 4-laned highway with paint and new asphalt, cared for by the city.

:P

life's a bitch ain't it?

[markalot]

Originally posted by Wondertastic

This happens all the time.

In other cities people don't make a big racial deal out of everything.

For example, up in Detroit, they had a white cop run over a black suspect with his car during a chase. It was buried 14 pages back in the newspaper.

I'm not making a racial deal out of it. Screw race, let's address the issue of people dying to Cincinnati police force. Let Frost play the race card. :p

[PeterABnny]

Originally posted by yoshomon


I actually sat down with the black community last night, and they had heard of personal responsibility! In fact, the black community remarked, "shouldn't cops be held responsible when they kill people? shouldn't governments be held responsible when they continue racist drug policies? shouldn't schools be held responsible when they don't educate children?"


True, Yosh. But to this end, I'll let Bill Cosby answer your questions; he's spoken far more eloquently and authoritatively on the subject than I ever could.

[PeterABnny]

Originally posted by Frost

If your only impression of Bill Cosby is the funny man from FAT ALBERT, or the kindly Cliff Huxtable from THE COSBY SHOW, this documentary is a revelation. Basically, the filmmakers take you through a history of African-Americans in cinema. Now, this being the late 60's, it is a very ANGRY retrospective, hosted by a very, shockingly, ANGRY Cos. This doc is loaded with really amazing historical footage and some rather shocking footage from the time. The "Black Power" elementary school is a true masterwork. It is a shame that this doc isn't available on home video, because it is a slice of a life and an insight into a time that has been glossed over by the slow drift of history. Call your local PBS station, petition home video distributors, demand that you see this piece! Bill seems so angry in it, that he may scare younger viewers, but it sure seems more 'real,' than the guy who sells you the Jello.



Actually, I was basing my comments on the angry Cos who was in the news a month or two ago. There was a thread about his remarks on the board not too long ago...

[Emperor Wog]

Originally posted by Frost

Basically, the filmmakers take you through a history of African-Americans in cinema. Now, this being the late 60's, it is a very ANGRY retrospective, hosted by a very, shockingly, ANGRY Cos. This doc is loaded with really amazing historical footage and some rather shocking footage from the time.

As I walk the streets of Hollywood Boulevard
Thinkin' how hard it was to those that starred
In the movies portrayin' the roles
Of butlers and maids slaves and hoes
Many intelligent Black men seemed to look uncivilized
When on the screen

-Big Daddy Kane with Plublic Enemy, Burn Hollywood Burn, FOABP

[paranoidandroid]

Originally posted by Frost

what is "the race card" by the way? is my race a card? are the things i experience a fucking game?


ever play poker?

the race card is the ace to my king in a flush draw. if indeed we are playing a game here.


didn't HBO do a doc on the blacksplotation of hollywood in the 60's and 70's?


i prefer my cosby to be hicky-burrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by Content Chick
Sometimes it is just a mistake...a misjudgment...fatigue...frustration...bad training...whatever. Cops are human. 1st - They r no longr human like me & u when the put on a badge & wear a gun to protect us regular humans. That's the point, the distracting "common man defense" that is irrelevent.

If the cops were xpectd to act human like me & u then what type of authority do they hav? If we were to equip ourselvs/w our own badges & guns couldn't we then patrol the streets/w the same level of service the cops provide?

no, we can't.

The police r not supposed to b me & u/w badges & guns, they r supposed to b trained to deal/w the "lowest denomenators" in ways we r not trained nor equippd to deal/w.

As for the "just a mistake" I guarantee u that is what most of them will say & probably believe. However, when mental lapses occur repeatedly/w such a specific demagraphic, then u hav to wonder why their minds lapse in those cases to such a degree or why they had bad judgement in those times but not others?

& PnB, Frost was referrin to that piece about Bill sayin what he said, actually. It's more about how what he said was taken out of context & haralded as bein newly divisive, but in fact it was the same thin he's been sayin for a long time & most ppl agree/w him. The fact ppl tried to make it sound polarizin is b/c the general population doesn't see the tru aim of the minorities.

[Content Chick]

Due, I'm sure you posted something in relation to what I wrote but I'm not going to try and decipher it.

[yoshomon]

Originally posted by paranoidandroid
life's a bitch ain't it?

You just can't get enough of your white privelege. It seems to me that celebrating, apologising for, or doing nothing about white privelege is what fuels racism.

[paranoidandroid]

Originally posted by yoshomon


You just can't get enough of your white privelege. It seems to me that celebrating, apologising for, or doing nothing about white privelege is what fuels racism.


we talking about paved streets?

so let me get this straight yosh. no celebrations. no apologies. no nothing.

what's a rich, ignorant, spoiled, white kid to do nowadays?

i guess i'll go catch 9 holes at bel air.

[Duemellon]

white privilage looks & feels like the "average life" to those who benefit from it.

that's why they can't imagine that others hav it so tuff.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by Content Chick
Due, I'm sure you posted something in relation to what I wrote but I'm not going to try and decipher it. well, ur loss.

[postfeminist]

from Peggy McIntosh's seminal work on privilege:

white privilege is:
I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals,the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.
I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to "the person in charge," I will be facing a person of my race.
If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
I can easily buy posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, out numbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared.
I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.
I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones.
I can choose blemish cover or bandages in flesh color and have them more or less match my skin.

apologies if this has been posted...i cruised thru the thread pretty fast.

[Content Chick]

I read that essay last fall and it was quite an eye-opener for me. I've been wanting to post it here but I couldn't remember the author. Thanks for posting it, postfem.

[Duemellon]

PF, that would b a great sig line.

[jps]

Originally posted by Frost
wow, we've hit a definining moment.

even I am sick of rehashing this topic. the discussion never seems to progress anyway

Well, why can't we make it progress? What needs to be done to make it progress? Speak to me like i am ignorant on the subject. In actuality i am not completely ignorant. Any kid that liked punk rock knows what its like to be followed around a department store because of how you look, and what its like to be looked at immediately upon something socially unacceptable happening. But that can't possibly compare!

Is it possible to train the cops to not see color and only see action? I would think that since racism is mostly a learned trait (kids don't really care what color somebody is) you should be able to train cops appropriately. Lets try to move the discussion further. It would benefit everyone more than throwing our hands in the air and giving up.

----
p.s. - post fem, that was a cool post about privelige!

[Duemellon]

Allow me to reiterate:

The fight against Racism has no city to occupy. There is no monster to fight. It is a journey. It's a journey from a tradition of ignorance and complicity to a lifestyle of awareness and action. Once you get headed in the right direction, you're still starting off from ignorance and complicity. You aren't out of the woods. You may never get out of the woods.

But there are people who are way ahead of you. They're looking back at where you are and remembering what it was like back there. They coach you. They offer you help. At no point can you stop. At no point is your journey complete. To say that you have acheived a state where you no longer judge a man by the color heritage they show is when you become satisfied with your remaining level of ignorance and become complicit with those things.

It is your job to reach back and see those who have set up residence in the old ways of thinking and lead them forward. Bring all those you had left behind along on the journey like Harriet Tubman did.

The times when we can notice true progress is when we look back, as far back as we can see, and notice that no one was left behind in the furthest spot. Then look more recent along the path and we see just a few. The victory against racism is a personal journey of enlightenment, but the final defeat of racism is when we are all walking together. No longer sitting. No longer waiting. Not some of us settling and some of us moving.

When we all are walking together.

[yoshomon]

A few ways white people can fight racism:

1) Never apologize for racist friends, coworkers, or family. When someone says or does something racist, call them on it. If someone you know does or says racist things a lot, stop spending time with them until they stop - and tell them why you aren't spending time with them. Any discomfort this may cause you is nothing compared to the daily reality faced by people of color. If you know or know of white supremacists, take necessary action.

2) Know that history has been taught from the perspective of hunters, not lions. Counter historical lies told about people of color (most commonly about slavery, the holocaust, imperialism/colonialism, the civil rights movement, etc) as well as lies about current events (often welfare, immigration, affirmative action, etc).

3) Be aware of white privelege. Don't make it a guilt thing - it's a reality thing. You aren't normal - you're priveleged. Even if you're poor.

4) Be aware of cultural imperialism. 'White' culture - of both the mainstream and counter-culture variety - steals and profits from the culture of many oppressed peoples. Even if you know the history and signifigance of an object or practice, you can still be doing this.

5) Be aware of gentrification. White students, activists, and artists are often the first wave of gentrification into poor communities of color. You and your friends might unknowingly take part in forcing folks out of the neighborhood they're living in.

And so many more...

[paranoidandroid]

*thinking*


good post due. i actually didn't need a decipher code to understand it.



it's funny how something so obvious to some, is yet so cloudy to others. and yet even harder to understand why?

the only person i can speak of is me. not some author. i guess i didn't notice how much of a prvileged life i have. just driving to and from work.

i just think we have different opinions on what privileged means to most.













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