Kerry's "Produced" Vietnam portrayal

[Shrike]

http://www.observer.com/pages/frontpage7.asp

[tobedawg]

At least he served and put his life on the line unlike our current Commander-in-Thief and his administration..

[onest2.0]

All of W's image is "produced". First, he's not from Texas. Second, he bought his "ranch" right before he became president. He portrayed himself as a centrist until he took the oath of office. He hopped on a aircraft carrier in a flight suit and proclaimed "Mission Accomplished" (when just the other day General Franks said that we will be in Iraq for at least 5 more years). We've all seen the images, heard the rhetoric. Its on every channel. Maybe Kerry wouldn't have to make a video if he got equal time from the conservative media.

[Orestes]

oh, come on. all of just about every politicians image is "produced." jesus.

[Burger Queen]

I already know that politicians are liars. But if they lie about something that doesn't effect me or this country, then I don't really care.

that whole article is a joke in itself.

[Smoker29]

You know, I'm glad that Kerry served his country. What makes me sick is the fact that he throws it in your face every chance he gets. Look at me everybody; I'm a Vietnam Vet. Sure, that's honorable, but to portray yourself as a hero is a disgrace to everyone who got their ass shot off or died during an act of true heroism. All of this crap doesn't matter though.... People have their minds made up already.

Here is a snippet from a new book coming out:

[b]A new bombshell book written by the man who took over John Kerry's Swift Boat charges: Kerry reenacted combat scenes for film while in Vietnam! "Kerry carried a home movie camera to record his exploits for later viewing," charges a naval officer in the upcoming book UNFIT FOR COMMAND.

"Kerry would revisit ambush locations for reenacting combat scenes where he would portray the hero, catching it all on film. Kerry would take movies of himself walking around in combat gear, sometimes dressed as an infantryman walking resolutely through the terrain. He even filmed mock interviews of himself narrating his exploits. A joke circulated among Swiftees was that Kerry left Vietnam early not because he received three Purple Hearts, but because he had recorded enough film of himself to take home for his planned political campaigns." [b/]

Here are some links:

http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc81.htm
http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc82.htm
http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=SwiftPhoto

[Robert Goodman]

Actually now they are saying 2 of his 3 purple hearts were "self-inflicted" wounds. I have a hard time believing that one. I had read earlier this year that one was extremely minor (they compared it to a hangnail), but I believe if anyone got a bullet wound it is a big deal to them.

This guys book and web page have been around a while, and it's mostly other commanders against Kerry, not his crewmates.

This just seems like a smear to me.

Smoker, I look at Drudge but know he is very biased. I usually balance out his bias by looking at all the major news outlets as well, there is a news site called "my way" that lets you look at most of the bigger news outlets (abc, cbs, nbc, msnbc, cnbc, fox, cnn, etc) and compare the stories to get a well balanced decision. But I do admit Drudge is very early on anything that relates to his bias.

[onest2.0]

http://msg.woxy.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17270

[onest2.0]

When running for an office, its important to point out the differences between you and your opponent. When all we hear is war war war from a president who never served because of a dental appointment and a friend's political campaign, its good to hear that we have someone who knows why war sucks and that extreme caution is needed when making that decision.

[angryj5]

i'm just a politician. i've got no time for sick and poor. i've got a busy schedule. i'm just a money raising whore. i can do you favors. you know i'll make your business boom. don't care about your crime statistics. i'll put this country in a tomb. i've got some broken morals. that i'll pass across the land. no need to criticize me. i'm only in it for the cash. and when i'm re-elected. i'll do it all over again. i'm buddy buddy with big business. don't even need your votes to win. i'm just a public servant. the publics' money serves me well. i own a dozen houses. i even own a few hotels. i get a nice allowance. from the rich i'm working for. and if you come in empty handed. then i'll show your ass the door. i get inside information. that i use to make more dough. i'm cracking down on marijuana. but you know i'm snorting blow. i want to build a ball park. so i'll tax you all to hell. i got some loose lipped partners. that i finally had to kill. have you been asleep too long. did you know that all this shit is going on behind your back. or tell me do you even care. and i'll pick your pockets clean. and i'll make it seem obscene. to question every action that i take. i'm just a politician. you know that we are all the same. practice lying in the mirror. buying eight-balls of cocaine. i've got an in down at the courthouse. don't even need your votes to win. and i believe in democracy. like i believe in the tooth fairy. i believe

[Santos-Dumont]

you know that we are all the same. practice lying in the mirror. buying eight-balls of cocaine


aj5, that was Awesome!! 7 Story Mountain rule/ed Im not sure if theyre still in their original lineup

Very a pro po by the way;)

[motorcitysonics]

I don't base a Presiden't qualification on having served in the military, but when Bush parades himself around in a flight suit, it infuriates me. If Clinton had done that they would have absolutely lynched him. Clinton's excuse for avoiding Vietnam was going off to college, Bush's excuse was, well, we don't really know what he was doing then do we, great big hole in the man's life during the Vietnam War. If he's gonna sit there and act all military, then I think Kerry should point out that he volunteered to serve and he was a rich kid that could have gotten out of it too. Gonna be interesting to see the way the vote shakes out with the troops. I can't imagine Bush is getting anywhere near the support he got a year ago. That Thanksgiving thing, with the fake plastic turkey, and they screened and interviewed troops to make sure they only had extreme Republicans in the room. If it was a real act of support, he would have not brought the media with him.

[Orestes]

Originally posted by Robert Goodman
Actually now they are saying 2 of his 3 purple hearts were "self-inflicted" wounds. I have a hard time believing that one.

Not me. I work with a guy who was in Vietnam. He said that once guys got one purple heart, they would do anything they could to get those two more, since it was an automatic ticket home. He said when they were being fired on, all the guys around him would dive into foxholes and shit, and stick their arms up in the air, hoping they'd get hit. That way there were still injured, but not severely, so they'd still get a purple heart, and get to go home.

[SteelTown Boy]

it's all political rubbish,seriously.

[onest2.0]

Yeah, cause getting shot is fun.
You people trip me out, really.

[akip]

kerry's a war hero. bush is not.

you can like it or lump it, but those are the facts.

[Smoker29]

By the way, getting shot may not be fun... But for guys that have been trudging through rice patties for months not knowing what was going to jump out at them next, getting shot in the arm was a gift from heaven. Not that it was right, but some cats just couldn't take it and would do anything to get out of it.

Did you know that one of Kerry's Purple Hearts was treated with a pair of tweezers and a band-aid?

What did Kerry do to earn the title "hero?" I looked on the web and all I could find was a list of medals that he earned. I typed John Kerry and Hero into Google and found nothing. I wish I could find the link, but I read somewhere that Kerry's men complained about being put in harms way so Kerry could shine. Has anyone else read that anywhere?

Why won't Kerry release his Medical Records? Hmmmm. The Swiftboat Veterans claim that all three wounds were self inflicted.

[akip]

Originally posted by Smoker29
By the way, getting shot may not be fun... But for guys that have been trudging through rice patties for months not knowing what was going to jump out at them next, getting shot in the arm was a gift from heaven. Not that it was right, but some cats just couldn't take it and would do anything to get out of it.

Did you know that one of Kerry's Purple Hearts was treated with a pair of tweezers and a band-aid?

What did Kerry do to earn the title "hero?" I looked on the web and all I could find was a list of medals that he earned. I typed John Kerry and Hero into Google and found nothing. I wish I could find the link, but I read somewhere that Kerry's men complained about being put in harms way so Kerry could shine. Has anyone else read that anywhere?

Why won't Kerry release his Medical Records? Hmmmm. The Swiftboat Veterans claim that all three wounds were self inflicted.

the two incidents of kerry's wartime valor above and beyond the usual---saving rassmann's life and chasing down and killing a vietcong guerrilla, both times turning his boat and charging directly into the line of fire---were witnessed and well-documented. you can read all about them in the kerry biography by douglas brinkley "tour of duty" and many other sources. there's no mystery about any of this, except among those who get their news exclusively from fox news and am radio.

i think voters need to branch out in their sources beyond what caters to their own side of the argument. there's plenty of good, balanced journalism out there, but you have to spend more time reading and less time listening to the spin doctors.

democrats need to do the same thing.

like the bumper sticker says, "think---it's patriotic."

[Smoker29]

I'm sure the Kerry biography is balanced. :rolleyes:

Soldiers who were there say that the Viet Cong soldier that was chased down had already been wounded by a 50 cal round. Do you know how big a 50 cal round is? It can cut you in half. I'm sure that Viet Cong soldier that he so bravely chased down and killed was a big threat to his men.

I think you need to go to Google and type in "Kerry and Hero" and start reading.

[akip]

people sure do believe what they wanna believe, don't they?

[Smoker29]

Originally posted by akip
people sure do believe what they wanna believe, don't they?

I guess we do, don't we?

[Shrike]

Originally posted by motorcitysonics
I don't base a Presiden't qualification on having served in the military, but when Bush parades himself around in a flight suit, it infuriates me. If Clinton had done that they would have absolutely lynched him. Clinton's excuse for avoiding Vietnam was going off to college, Bush's excuse was, well, we don't really know what he was doing then do we, great big hole in the man's life during the Vietnam War. If he's gonna sit there and act all military, then I think Kerry should point out that he volunteered to serve and he was a rich kid that could have gotten out of it too. Gonna be interesting to see the way the vote shakes out with the troops. I can't imagine Bush is getting anywhere near the support he got a year ago. That Thanksgiving thing, with the fake plastic turkey, and they screened and interviewed troops to make sure they only had extreme Republicans in the room. If it was a real act of support, he would have not brought the media with him.
but he was a pilot.

[akip]

from nightline --

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Nightline/Politics/kerry_medal_040624-1.html

[akip]

from ny newsday --

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/printedition/nation/ny-ussold263907276jul26,0,945272.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-print

very fair piece.

[Duemellon]

I'll bet'ya that a woundd guy with a 40 cal in his side oozing blood can still fire a rifle in a way that can kill ya.

I'm just sayin.

I mean, a woundd guy/w a gun might not b as accurate, or attentative, but only he really needs to do is hit ya once, right?

Even dead soldiers can still kill ya.

[akip]

Originally posted by Duemellon
I'll bet'ya that a woundd guy with a 40 cal in his side oozing blood can still fire a rifle in a way that can kill ya.



yer damn straight. especially when it's his only chance.

[classicgrrl]

I dont really care about purple hearts, protests and cocaine usage (unless you use your money to get out of it and then enact stricter drug laws for offenders who have none).

what I do care about is where these cats stand on the issues.

hmmmmmmmmmmm, theres a word we have not heard in almost the entire campaign of both candidates. fuck it. I aint votin'. got nothing to vote for....

[akip]

rove is counting on the disaffected remaining disaffected.

[twentyshots]

My two cents:
Both guys are inherently not like us and they are in a system driven by lobbyists, special interests and something masquerading as a conscience, so you have got TWO choices or you can stay home. Of course the Kerry film was propaganda, because it is all propaganda and there are people paid to check up-to-the-second polls and tell both candidates what they should be emphasizing (and de-emphasizing). Nuance is the difference, so in this context I would have to say when we are talking about war and a war president, because that is the theme of this election, you MUST play up the fact of who went to Vietnam and who didn't. The Dems are just disorienting everything to weaken the others' strategy. It may be the best thing they could have done= reclaim "patriotism" and beat Bush at his own game.



I would echo an earlier sentiment also- there is a news bias everywhere and you have to always look at who owns who, this site is pretty evenly focused and easy to chew on:
http://factcheck.org/

[akip]

calling not voting a valid option is both cynical and naive. the public in their gullibility drives a lot of this political nonsense---they fall for it. a candidate who admits a position too early opens themselves up to be slaughtered -- witness the crash and burn of howard dean. let's face it -- a lot of this is OUR fault.

gw bush is a perfect example of a guy who was a trojan horse. he presented himself as a moderate during the 2000 campaign---someone with grey zone positions about foreign affairs. then he gets elected and bam! he's an imperialist who gets us into an unwinnable war, whether on false pretenses or bad judgement, and this war is going to cost a quarter of a trillion dollars, plus. and that's just the money.

democratic progress is a slow, incremental process upward, but it's frightening how much can be lost during four years of a disastrous administration---with a president who listens to three people and doesn't even go through a proper decision-making process. give somebody else a chance!

i cannot forget that people in the third world have been gunned down and blown to bits while attempting to vote.

at least vote on the basis of the next supreme court justice nominees. that sh*t's important!

i know that's too long and no one will read it , but there's my 2 cents.

[Duemellon]

Voting is a means of convincing the populace that you're listening although the truth is that it doesn't change anything.

It's a battle between half-steps or big-steps towards dissappointment or self-destruction.

Voting is not the epitome of participation in this democratic republic. They want u to believe that b/c it sedates u into thinkin "I did my part".

In fact, voting isn't even the most powerful means of changin ur govnt. It's nowhere near the most direct. When u vote, u r turning over ur powers of decision to someone else. If u voted for the one that didn't make it then u just shut up & hang on for the ride?

[failurefirst]

i am actually shocked at how the democrats have been embracing kerry's vietnam service. no doubt it's a ploy to get the swing voters who might play into that; but i fear he might lose some of the far left in his effort to get the hawks on his side.

i found the pbs commentary on his acceptance speech to have an interesting perspective: kerry certainly sounded (and was painted) like a gun-toting republican. i find kerry's "patriotic" protest of the vietnam war after his service more noble.

[the happy prole]

Kerry's not a war hero by any stretch, and I think's insulting to veterans the way his service is being trumped up. Then again, I think it's insulting to veterans to when Bush says he didn't pull a ton of strings to get out of active service when clearly he did.

I agree with failurefirst that the one interesting thing Kerry did was protest the war. It was cheezy, but he got his three purple hearts so he was home safe. He could have just laid low.

Instead he was fairly active in protesting and with some pretty radical groups. Not a smart move given his political ambitions (which were already clear). It's the one thing he's done where I think he genuinely cared.

Which puts him one above Bush. And still ninety-nine short of me giving a crap.

[Smoker29]

Originally posted by Duemellon
I'll bet'ya that a woundd guy with a 40 cal in his side oozing blood can still fire a rifle in a way that can kill ya.

I'm just sayin.

I mean, a woundd guy/w a gun might not b as accurate, or attentative, but only he really needs to do is hit ya once, right?

Even dead soldiers can still kill ya.

This is a 50 Cal Machine Gun

http://www.uscg.mil/lantarea/cutter/reliance/photo/50cal.jpg

Here is the round.

http://www.rockhopper.freeserve.co.uk/images/50cal.jpg

Just sayin....

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by Smoker29
Just sayin.... i dont care if the fucker is blind with one arm, if he still has a finger to pull the fuckin trigger he can kill you...

Just sayin...

[Smoker29]

You're right; the guy might be able to pull the trigger. The human body is an amazing thing. After being shot with a 50 cal, I doubt that his aim would be that good. I also doubt that he put up much of a fight. My main point is that if he got a silver star for this, there is something wrong. Guys did things far braver than this in WWII for Bronze Stars.

You do know that 50 cal's can pierce certain tank armor don't you? They use heavy-duty safes in demonstrations to show that the bullets enter and exit.

Here is what is also peculiar. Kerry won't hesitate to mention his 3 purple hearts or Vietnam service. He brings up his service in almost every speech he gives. But... when asked about what he did for his medals, he clams up. Those experiences are too hard to talk about. Please.... I understand that traumatic experiences are tough, but the way this guy flaunts his service around is very uncharacteristic of a guy that's been through some shit. He also won't release his medical records so we can see how he earned his purple hearts. Hmmm. I wonder why?

[postfeminist]

i'm surprised to see that for once, i'm not the one who sounds like a conspiracy theorist of types.

i really am starting to feel good about kerry, and if he shot himself in the hand when he was a very young scared man to get the fuck out of a war, then i'll DEFINITELY vote for him, because that's smarter than sticking around getting killed if you don't have to.

if he saved some people and helped make sure some other folks didn't get killed over there, that's all i need to think he was a war hero. to me, a war hero is anyone who makes it out alive and helps others do the same.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by Smoker29
But... when asked about what he did for his medals, he clams up.strange, switch one word...

"But... when asked about what he did for his active duty, he clams up."

& we'r talkin about Bush.

U cant' get a PUrpl Heart from fishin on ur own time at home.

[Smoker29]

I'm not talking about Bush. I'm talking about Kerry.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by Smoker29
I'm not talking about Bush. I'm talking about Kerry. & I didn't stop talkin about Kerry I just included Bush as well.

[akip]

i guess i was wasting my time posting that nightline piece. don't read it if you really don't want to know what happened.

but one more appeal to the reasonably open-minded---i just can't stand perverse distortions of history. here we go again.

ted koppel is probably the best journalist in television. he leans neither left nor right ---
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Nightline/Politics/kerry_medal_040624-1.html

ny newsday has an excellent reputation as well ---
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/printedition/nation/ny-ussold263907276jul26,0,945272.story?coll=ny-nationalnews-print

kerry's military service is relevant in THIS election because:

#1 -- the men who led this country into war --- bush, cheney, wolfowitz --- either did not serve in the military at all or avoided combat in the air national guard. the ONE man who did fight a war --- powell --- argued strenuously against going into iraq, but, because he disagreed, was frozen out. read "plan of attack" by bob woodward for details.

#2 -- we're at war, baby. until the bombs stop goin off and the troops start comin home.

#3 -- kerry displayed a very cool head under fire in both the silver and bronze star incidents --- just might be a good thing for the commander-in-chief of the world's lone superpower. somehow i don't think kerry would have sat staring into space with a goat book for 7 minutes as the towers were being struck.

but here's another try -- for those of you who don't know what kerry's positions are:

kerry's voting record without spin.
http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=S0421103

look, if you really think the high-end tax cuts were the right way to go, if you think the war in iraq's the right war for the right reason and is being well-prosecuted, if you think the separation of church and state should be chipped away, if you think the next two supreme court justice appointees should be right-wingers, if you think the u.s. needs no allies anyway, then by all means, bush is your man. vote for him. you have my blessing.

as for the fence-sitters, i just heard a credible argument of how low voter turnout will benefit bush. based on a lot of data gathered by pollsters on both parties.

[the happy prole]

Well, the guy with the most credibility on this issue is McCain. He's unquestionably done his duty, he has a great understanding of the issue, and it's a topic that he cares deeply about.

McCain thinks we ought to stay in Iraq. So if it's all about military experience and military knowledge, there's your answer.

Slice it up all you want. Kerry did active duty, Bush didn't. You might like Kerry's agenda better. But it still doesn't mean he isn't trumping up his war record. He is. I understand it's a part of politics, but it still isn't right and if I were a vet, I'd be a bit pissed.

smoker29, I have no doubt that part of Kerry not talking about his medals is politics. I'm sure his advisors have told him this is an issue he's strong on and the medals speak for themselves. Talking about how you killed someone is obviously a hot potato.

But I also believe he is personally reticent to talk about it because no one likes to relive those moments. I know Kerry is running for President and he's put his record out there. Which maybe means he should talk about it. But if someone asked me about the details of how I killed someone, I'd clam up too. I don't think that reaction is that uncommon, especially among Vietnam vets.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by the happy prole
Well, the guy with the most credibility on this issue is McCain. He's unquestionably done his duty, he has a great understanding of the issue, and it's a topic that he cares deeply about.

McCain thinks we ought to stay in Iraq. So if it's all about military experience and military knowledge, there's your answer.

Slice it up all you want. Kerry did active duty, Bush didn't. You might like Kerry's agenda better. But it still doesn't mean he isn't trumping up his war record. He is. I understand it's a part of politics, but it still isn't right and if I were a vet, I'd be a bit pissed.

smoker29, I have no doubt that part of Kerry not talking about his medals is politics. I'm sure his advisors have told him this is an issue he's strong on and the medals speak for themselves. Talking about how you killed someone is obviously a hot potato.

But I also believe he is personally reticent to talk about it because no one likes to relive those moments. I know Kerry is running for President and he's put his record out there. Which maybe means he should talk about it. But if someone asked me about the details of how I killed someone, I'd clam up too. I don't think that reaction is that uncommon, especially among Vietnam vets.
Some folks (vets included that I know who served in Nam) don't beleive hes very credible, since they were fighting and he was imprisoned, just fyi.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by Shrike
Some folks (vets included that I know who served in Nam) don't beleive hes very credible, since they were fighting and he was imprisoned, just fyi. & some ppl believe Bush is credible since he was doding while they were fighting.

right.. ?