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View Full Version : Here we go again, FL voting problems


AngelV
28 Jul 2004, 11:08 AM
From CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/28/florida.voting.ap/index.html):


Florida officials: Some voting records wiped out

MIAMI, Florida (AP) -- A computer crash erased detailed records from Miami-Dade County's first widespread use of touchscreen voting machines, raising again the specter of election troubles in Florida, where the new technology was supposed to put an end to such problems.

The crashes occurred in May and November of 2003, erasing information from the September 2002 gubernatorial primaries and other elections, elections officials said Tuesday.

The malfunction was made public after the Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition, a citizen's group, requested all data from the 2002 gubernatorial primary between Democratic candidates Janet Reno and Bill McBride.

In December, officials began backing up the data daily, to help avoid similar data wipeouts in the future, said Seth Kaplan, spokesman for the county's elections supervisor, Constance Kaplan.

The loss of data underscores problems with the touchscreen voting machines, the citizen's group said. "This is a disaster waiting to happen," said Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, chairwoman of the Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition. "Of course it's worrisome."

The group is concerned about the machines' effectiveness, following revelations about other problems with the system. Last month, state officials said the touchscreen systems used by 11 counties had a bug that would make a manual recount impossible. Earlier this month, a newspaper study indicated touchscreen machines did not perform as well as those that scanned paper ballots.

Also Tuesday, election reform groups asked a judge to strike down a state rule preventing counties that use the machines from conducting manual recounts from them.

State election officers say manual recounts are not needed since the machines tell each voter if they are skipping a race, known as an undervote, and will not let them vote twice for the same race, known as an overvote. The officials also maintain that the computer systems running the machines can be trusted to count the votes accurately as they're cast, and give the final numbers when needed.

But lawyers representing the American Civil Liberties Union and other groups said the state should require a paper trail in case a physical recount is needed, as it was in the 2000 presidential race in Florida.

"I have concern about votes that are cast but not recorded," said Howard Simon, executive director for ACLU of Florida.

Election supervisors from some of the 15 counties using touchscreens had asked the state if they would need to go through the laborious process of printing screen images of each ballot during a recount.

The Division of Elections then ruled that state law only requires a recount to determine voters' intent, and that it is impossible to question voter intent with touchscreen ballots.

Florida counties without the touchscreen machines use optiscan technology, in which computers read voters' pencil marks on paper ballots, and would be able to do physical recounts in tight races.

Administrative Law Judge Susan B. Kirkland has 30 days to make her decision after receiving the hearing transcript, which is due back in 10 working days.

Florida's voting system has been under scrutiny since the 2000 debacle, when it took five weeks of legal maneuvering and some recounting before Republican George W. Bush was declared president.

drexel dave
28 Jul 2004, 11:11 AM
It's called a hint of what is to come.

markalot
28 Jul 2004, 11:41 AM
The level of incompetence is astounding.

As a computer programmer I can't understand how data can be lost, unless a hard drive went down in flames, and even then there are professional restoration services that can recover most data.

I'm in charge of a system that keeps track of clinical trials, and we have gone to great pains to make sure no data can ever be lost, including multiple daily backups.

The level of incompetence is astounding.

I say use the damn punchcards and make a solid set of rules to back up descrepencies (like DO count hanging chads as long as only one per choice is hanging). Don't change the system until we know the next one is better.

wileE
28 Jul 2004, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by markalot
The level of incompetence is astounding.


No kidding. How hard can this be? I write code as well. I wouldn't think it would be this difficult.

Necromancer
28 Jul 2004, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by markalot
The level of incompetence is astounding.

As a computer programmer I can't understand how data can be lost, unless a hard drive went down in flames, and even then there are professional restoration services that can recover most data.


It's called crappy coding. I don't know how you can mess up

if vote='A'
{
Candidate1++;
}

if vote='B'
{
Candidate2++;
}

But you'd be suprised how many computer science majors cheated their way through all of their classes.

DaysWithoutEnd
28 Jul 2004, 12:53 PM
They were too busy playing 'Doom'

Well, i'm not too surprised about this.

tobedawg
28 Jul 2004, 08:10 PM
Those damn Floridians need to get their act together!! First, it was the punch cards, now it's the voting machines..

Geez.. Maybe we should just revert to pencil and paper!!

AngelV
28 Jul 2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by tobedawg

Geez.. Maybe we should just revert to pencil and paper!!

They'd probably fuck that up as well by not having the pencils sharpened. :rolleyes:

onest2.0
28 Jul 2004, 09:18 PM
and these are the same companies that make ATMs. Looks like its back to putting money in the mattress.

Phreon
28 Jul 2004, 09:37 PM
The whole "hanging chad" debacle drives me nuts. There are instructions plastered right on the voting booth with explicit verbiage regarding the proper use of the machine. This includes being sure the tabs are fully punched out.

Perhaps I'm being an elietist bastard, but I think that if you can't be bothered to follow the damed instructions, your vote should be shredded. Hanging chad? Shredded. Double vote? Shreded. There should be no room for "interpretation" between the voter and tally sheet.

Punch cards work just fine if have the ability to read and follow instructions. If you can't do that, how can you possibly make informed choices about canditates? Have a random number generator be your proxy if the punch card system is too difficult, 'cause there won't be much difference in the results anyway.

The perfect solution doesn't require computers, it involves voters who aren't lazy or stupid.

Damn I'm an asshole,

Phreon

AntiMushroom
29 Jul 2004, 02:10 AM
first we make computers mobile...
now we're voting on them...

this could get really twilight zone really fast. by the way anyone see I Robot?

Originally posted by onest2.0
and these are the same companies that make ATMs. Looks like its back to putting money in the mattress.

i carry mine around in a big ragcloth sack with a big "$" sign on it.. i thought that was the norm

Wolverine
29 Jul 2004, 07:16 AM
http://www.votefraud.org/

http://www.votescam.com/

wileE
29 Jul 2004, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by onest2.0
and these are the same companies that make ATMs. Looks like its back to putting money in the mattress.

But ATMs work great. Millions of transactions are processed with few mistakes (very few). Yet they can't create a system that adds one to a tally and makes a backup occasionally? A high schooler can do better.

sirgareth
29 Jul 2004, 08:02 AM
Heard an NPR report on Sunday that outlined a SECOND example of Florida voter tampering that occurred last week. After a group of immigrants gained their citizenship, there was a table set up so they could register to vote. Turns out, the table was sponsored by a partisan Republican group, and all the cards were premarked, registering all new immigrants as Republicans.

After this was discovered, all the registrations were thrown out, and legal action was being 'explored'. But, seriously. Two in a week four months before the election? Pathetic.