Was it worth it?

[markalot]

------
A teenage girl shot and killed her father Wednesday after he kidnapped her and two sisters at gunpoint and shot their mother in the face, authorities said.
...
A week ago, the 43-year-old Ball was released on bail on felony charges of sexual assault, incest and assault with a deadly weapon. Further details on those charges were not immediately available. ...
-----

Was it worth trying to rehabilitate this scumbag? I say we need a broader death penalty.

[DaysWithoutEnd]

These days, "rehabilitate" means locking someone up with a thousand other scumbags and hoping he's better off as a result. With that kind of 'treatment' you can't be too surprised when this sort of thing happens.

The death penalty is hypocritical and only reinforces the cycle of violence. The government should not have the right to take life, especially if we expect people not to.

Real reform is needed, not more violence.

[Duemellon]

let's go around choppin off hands, castrating, & caning, & then we'll b like those other nations we do support.

& simultaneously we deride others for the same behavoir, but who can tell how one is diff from the other?

All-in-all, there r too many ppl claimin that individuals are unrehabilitatible. That's just writin off a human life for an eternity of bein isolatd & watchd. If that's so, we should just kill 'em, all they become is a burden.

However, I really REALLY don't believe that's the truth. If u can't rehabilitate them then they hav a mental illness, right? B/c if they understand the diff between good & evil & always chose evil, consciously, then they hav somethin wrong in their noggin that goes against the inate human desire for goodness.

ugh... nvm. I'll probably get lambastd by ppl who think that if someone commits a sex crime it's worse than someone committin a non-lethal violent crime.

[onest2.0]

Even a death sentence would not have stopped this guy. Why? Because It happened before trial. How about higher bail?

[markalot]

If u can't rehabilitate them then they hav a mental illness, right? B/c if they understand the diff between good & evil & always chose evil, consciously, then they hav somethin wrong in their noggin that goes against the inate human desire for goodness.

Actually that sums up the difference in our opinions, I think. I don't believe in the inate human desire for goodness. I believe people can and will be evil. I don't blame a disease or mental illness for this evil behavior, and I would gladly kill to remove that kind of person from society.

I guess there's no suprises there, it pretty much sums up the pro-death penalty vs anti-death penalty argument. I won't lambast your opinion. This could also apply to going to war I suppose. ie you think there's a reason for some country acting evil and we should address that reason while I tend to think the opposite.

[Slar]

Originally posted by Duemellon
we'll b like those other nations we do support

we deride others for the same behavoir

who can tell how one is diff from the other?

there r too many ppl claimin that individuals are unrehabilitatible

That's just writin off a human life for an eternity of bein isolatd & watchd.

If u can't rehabilitate them then they hav a mental illness, right?

they hav somethin wrong in their noggin that goes against the inate human desire for goodness.

Dude, learn to type. You're not text messaging here. This post is almost unreadable. Also, you're making up words. Unrehabilitatible?

People may not have a mental illness, they may just be assholes. There is no innate desire for good over evil. It's good if that's the case with you, but people are products of their environments.

[onest2.0]

Originally posted by Slar
but people are products of their environments.

Which is where Days and Frost are coming from, I think.

[monkey neck]

Originally posted by Duemellon
let's go around choppin off hands, castrating, & caning, & then we'll b like those other nations we do support.


There would be a lot less crime, then, wouldn't there?

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by Slar
Dude, learn to type. You're not text messaging here. This post is almost unreadable. Also, you're making up words. Unrehabilitatible?no, i will not type the way u want me to & yes, we are txt msging here. When u pay me to type accordin to English laws, I will, k? As for now I'll continue to type as if I'm typin for fun b/c I am typing for amuzemnt purposes, k? k.

furtheremore, I am makin up words, but communication was servd, so what's the prob? the dictionary is dead. Long live the evolvin language!People may not have a mental illness, they may just be assholes. There is no innate desire for good over evil. It's good if that's the case with you, but people are products of their environments. ppl might not hav mental illnesses, ppl might. How can we categorize B.Clinton's upbringin in an abusiv restrictive partially mysoginistic household as a form of learnd mental illness but say that someone who does somethin worse is not?

Deviance isn't necessarily a product of environment, nor is it necessarily a product of an intent to do malicious acts. There's a mixture of both that skews the individuals awareness of what right & wrong is. There are further physiologic pieces that can also play into it, whether it b a hormonal imbalance or introducd drugs, they can alter the ability of someone to make sound judgemnts.

So, as it is, I tend to think the way MaL summd up, I believe there is very little intentional evil in the world. Almost everyone does somethin b/g they think it's the right thing at the time givn their information & circumstances. There r those who do intentionally wrong & evil things b/c even in those times they think it's right for them to for whatever hard-to-justify or reconcile reasons.

[msbirt]

Due is conducting an experiment, I believe (is that right, Due?). He knows how to type correctly, he's just choosing not to. I believe he may be trying to make a political point, or some sort of artistic flourish.

My brother is currently in prison. He's been there since April 2003 for forgery, fraud, and kiting checks. Stuff like that. He's a thief, and not a very good one at that. But he tries hard.

I love my brother, and miss him very much. He's not a violent guy at all. He never has been.

That being said, I fear that his mind and his constitution may not make it out of that place. He has about 2 1/2 years left to go on his sentence.

Currently, he is being hunted by a large, black, bull-queer. My brother is not gay, and does not want to have sex with a man. That, however, does not matter. My brother has to be willing to fight to the death at any moment, and he must constantly look over his shoulder to protect himself from this guy, and any others like him.

He does not live in a traditional cell. He is housed with 199 other inmates in a bunk house. They may roam freely and do as they please as long as their behavior stays within particular parameters. My brother has been mislabeled as a security level 2, instead of as a 1 (it probably wasn't an accident...no room at a level 1 prison). Therefore, he is in an institution with rapists and murderers (they've just been good for a long time and have dropped one security level).

A couple of weeks ago, there were three stabbings (one resulting in the death of an inmate). They brought the "goons," as my brother called them, into the prison, dressed in riot gear, wearing hoods, and they moved all inmates out of each bunkhouse and searched for shanks. They went ahead and helped themselves to the inmates' personal property as they were doing the sweep. My brother now owns nothing.

In prison, you must constantly fight to prevent other inmates from preying on you. If someone steals a quarter from your foot locker, even though it's only a quarter, you have to beat the shit out of someone for doing it, even if it's the wrong guy. As soon as the inmates know that you won't defend your personal property, it will all be gone. Since my brother is known as a rich inmate, he really has to be on the defensive. Everyone wants his scwag.

He has seen so much crazy stuff, I won't even bore you with the details. It is an awful place. Of course, they have cable, board games, basketball courts, books, college courses, 12-step programs, counseling, and other stuff like that, so those of you who'd like to see our prison inmates put on a daily caning routine may not think that it sounds so bad.

It is.

My point in telling you this story?

My brother is not a bad guy. He's done some bad things, but much of it has to do with his physical situation and the hoplessness he feels because of it. He has spina bifida and has a hard time working. But the state won't give him SSI. So he's always in a financial pinch. He figured out a way to stay out of that financial pinch. He should be punished for that solution, but I fear for him.

While he's not a bad guy, I'm afraid this place is going to make him into a bad guy. I'm afraid he'll become violent, and more cynical about people than he already is. That he'll become more hopeless and despondent about life. I'm afraid he may be killed. Or raped. You can't be hunted down by people for 3 1/2 years and not be affected by that.

I asked him why the COs (Correctional Officers) don't do something about all of this stuff. "They're worse than us," is his response.

We have a revolting prison system that makes people worse when they are released than they were when they came in. Considering that most prisoners will get out of the institution at some point, that's just crazy.

There is no such thing as rehabilitation in prison. The state just likes to pretend that there is to quiet down the radicals.

Radicals. You know. The people who want other people to be helped instead of made worse.

matt

[msbirt]

Originally posted by Duemellon
no, i will not type the way u want me to & yes, we are txt msging here. When u pay me to type accordin to English laws, I will, k? As for now I'll continue to type as if I'm typin for fun b/c I am typing for amuzemnt purposes, k? k.

furtheremore, I am makin up words, but communication was servd, so what's the prob? the dictionary is dead. Long live the evolvin language!

You beat me to it, Due. Didn't see this until after I posted my message.

[vanler]

Very compelling story birty. I really hope your brother makes it out ok.

[markalot]

Your brothers story does not include rape or incest.

Your brothers story deals with M O N E Y which in my book is a completely different set of crimes for a completely different set of reasons.

Lay off Due's typing, I can read it :)

Back to the mental illness point ... I'm not sure I care if someone has a legitimate illness or not IF they pose a significat risk to society.

[msbirt]

Originally posted by vanler
Very compelling story birty. I really hope your brother makes it out ok.

Thanks.

matt

[msbirt]

Originally posted by markalot
Your brothers story does not include rape or incest.

Your brothers story deals with M O N E Y which in my book is a completely different set of crimes for a completely different set of reasons.

Lay off Due's typing, I can read it :)

Back to the mental illness point ... I'm not sure I care if someone has a legitimate illness or not IF they pose a significat risk to society.

I hear you, markalot.

I feel the same way to some extent. If my nephew was molested, I'd be feeling pretty mean.

I guess in such circumstances, I don't want the guy released if he poses a risk.

That being said, I think we as a society should still try to ease his suffering and try to lessen his condition. If he poses a risk, he should stay put, but the institution in which he is housed should be a place that gives him the greatest chance at recovery.

I'm not into the death penalty, and I'm not into making prisons institutions that exemplify all of the worst characteristics of human beings. It is worth our tax money to try to help these people as much as we can.

Even the guy who molests my nephew.

matt

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by birty74 but then reposted in a way to show that he would've said the same thing by Duemellon
I guess in such circumstances, I don't want the guy released if he poses a risk.

That being said, I think we as a society should still try to ease his suffering and try to lessen his condition. If he poses a risk, he should stay put, but the institution in which he is housed should be a place that gives him the greatest chance at recovery.

[DaysWithoutEnd]

Originally posted by vanler
Very compelling story birty. I really hope your brother makes it out ok.
Ditto that, man.

[postfeminist]

DWE said
The death penalty is hypocritical and only reinforces the cycle of violence.

Again, i think i love you. :) in a political platonic sort of way

birty74, thanks for sharing your story. to piggy-back, i wanted to add that reading up on the prison industrial complex (see a few links below folx) is a great way to fully understand that prison is not rehabilitative, nor is it meant to be.

prisons in this country were designed to hold people until they could serve a sentence OUTSIDE of the prison (hard labor, community service, etc...). it was never meant to be the SENTENCE.

PIC linx:

from the Atlantic Monthly (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98dec/prisons.htm)

Prisonsucks.com (http://www.prisonsucks.com/)

Great article by ANGELA DAVIS (http://home.ican.net/~edtoth/lawprisonrace.html)

[bluelupis]

Originally posted by postfeminist

prisons in this country were designed to hold people until they could serve a sentence OUTSIDE of the prison (hard labor, community service, etc...). it was never meant to be the SENTENCE.


Another way in which unions have helped and helped screw shit up. Many of the hard labor that was done by prisoners (road work, clean up, forestry, etc.) has been taken by unions that force the state and private contractors to pay ungodly wages for the work to be done. In doing so this not only keeps these prisoners in their "storage" and thus making it become their sentence but also saps tax money and private moneies that could be used to further other more positve areas in which America hurts such as teacher wages and higher education. It goes on and on. Funny how contigent shit is huh?

[DaysWithoutEnd]

Originally posted by postfeminist
Again, i think i love you. :) in a political platonic sort of way

Thanks PF. I'm quite fond of you as well. :)

[despondent]

You can only rehabilitate those that truly want to be rehabilitated. I have been a member of a 12 step program for a process addiction and am currently in therapy for overcoming the trauma of my abusive childhood. I thought my childhood was "normal", because it was all I knew. And I'll admit, I didn't suffer as much abuse and neglect as others, but that's also why the extent of my adult issues aren't as great as others. But even still, my issues have affected my life in a negative way; so far as to cost me my marriage. I have not done anything "criminal", but have done some morally reprehensible acts. I spent the better part of my adult life thinking I was "OK" and putting up that front too. But deep down on the inside, I was crumbling. Believing on the outside that you're "OK" is what denial is. Denial is simply lying to yourself that everything really is "OK". Unfortunately, no one can begin the rehabilitation process until they come out of denial, and before this can happen, the individual must first hit "rock bottom". "Rock bottom" is different for each individual, because each individual has a different tolerence for pain. That's why some can go to prison and be scared straight and others go to prison and treat it nonchalantly. No matter the individual, we should only hold them accountable for their actions, and not their underlying emotional issues.

[Duemellon]

Ppl need to b held responsibl for the actions they r aware they r doing. If a person has the inability to comprehend their actions then they should b lookd at in a different capacity.

That statement is where the argument about insanity, temporary or not, gets in. Being raisd in a sociopathic environment may lead to a distortd view of what is right & wrong, but most of those ppl who deveopd into adulthood r able to comprehend that somethin "just ain't right"/w the way they see things.

Does this mean I want to absolv everyon of criminal capabilities who hav had a "bad childhood"? Nope. That person did make the decision despite all the social pressures or hints that what they were about to do was wrong. However, I think the sentencing portion really needs to reflect the causes of their sociopathy.

[yoshomon]

There's been talk of the prison-industrial complex... so I'd like to toss the words 'racist' and 'war on the poor' into the mix.