Thank you, George Bush (part 2)

[RedRage]

Nonfarm payroll employment rose by 248,000 in May, and the unemployment rate was unchanged at 5.6 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. The May increase in payroll employment follows gains of 346,000 in April and 353,000 in March (as revised). Job growth in May again was widespread, as increases continued in construction,
manufacturing, and several service-providing industries.

[BigSugar]

it's the economy stupid. :D

[Duemellon]

yay!

now we have mid management & Bachelor degrees workin the night shift at McD's & day shift at Circuit City.

Now u can go in, get a SuperSize & also get the best advice on which low rate loans, or CDs to really look into.

[RedRage]

Originally posted by Duemellon
yay!

now we have mid management & Bachelor degrees workin the night shift at McD's & day shift at Circuit City.

Now u can go in, get a SuperSize & also get the best advice on which low rate loans, or CDs to really look into.

That's the typical response, but how would that explain the high raise in construction and manufacturing? Speaking of manufacturing, I recall being pounded on the news over and over again how all the manufacturing jobs were headed out of the country. Confusing isn't it? :p

[beezlebob]

depends of what is defined as a "manuafacturing job". The Bush administration tried to get food service re-classified as a manufacturing job to bolster it's numbers...

My personal favorite among Bush's recent moves is the proposal in his economic report to Congress to reclassify fast-food restaurants, moving them from the service sector to "manufacturing." This is a concept. In case you're puzzled over why your burger-flippers should now be classified with autoworkers, it's so when the administration has to report the statistics on how many manufacturing jobs we've lost, they won't look so bad. While in college, I had a job at an Aunt Jemima's Pancake House sticking toothpicks with curlicue-cellophane through butter balls -- that's my background in manufacturing.

http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Feb/02262004/commenta/commenta.asp


also:
The idea is so crazy that I almost didn’t believe it when I read about it in the newspaper and saw the reports on TV. Could the White House actually be proposing changing the definition of manufacturing to include fast food jobs?

They want to put Burger King in the same category as General Motors, Ford, and Goodyear? That’s like trying to call ketchup a vegetable (remember that one?).

If you don’t believe it, read for yourself, straight from the President’s Council of Economic Advisors Report to Congress:

“Sometimes, seemingly subtle differences can determine whether an industry is classified as manufacturing. For example, mixing water and concentrate to produce soft drinks is classified as manufacturing. However, if that activity is performed at a snack bar, it is considered a service . . .

“When a fast-food restaurant sells a hamburger, for example, is it providing a 'service' or is it combining inputs to 'manufacture' a product?” the report asks.
Source: Economic Report of the President, 2004

http://www.house.gov/sherrodbrown/McManufact204.html

[angryj5]

heh, house.gov calls it mcmanufacturing, thats funny considering how unhappy mcdonalds got over the use of the term "McJobs"

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by RedRage
That's the typical response, but how would that explain the high raise in construction and manufacturing? i would xplain that as C++ & SAP admins learnin how to punch holes in widgets.

[DaysWithoutEnd]

Originally posted by RedRage
That's the typical response, but how would that explain the high raise in construction and manufacturing?
Somebody has to build all those McDonalds and Wal-marts.
Race you to the bottom!

The benefit of capitalism is that everybody wants to make money, to a certain degree. That's a strong motiviator. After the hit we took with 9/11, the economy was bound to improve by itself eventually.

In the meantime, we now have a huge deficit and an increasing number of low-wage, low-benefit service jobs. Yes, perhaps the outsourcing rage is overstated, but the overall quality of life in this country continues to decline because trickle-down economics do not work.

[markalot]

The president doesn't effect the economy. Clinton proved this by having the smarts to leave it alone. The economy goes through boom bust cycles and the best we can do is smooth out the highs and lows.


I'm tempted to blame the current boom bust on Clinton, by encouraging dishonest behavior. :p Looks good on paper anyway, but I won't go down that road.

[Megs79]

Originally posted by RedRage
That's the typical response, but how would that explain the high raise in construction and manufacturing?

Construction typically picks up in the summer. My brother is a union bricklayer in New England and was out of work last year from November 2002 to April 2003. Then the only jobs available involved a 2 hour commute to Boston. Luckily he lives at home, but he was sick of being unemployed so he went back to school last fall. He worked as a security guard at Target while he was in school, and he's gone back to the construction work for the summer.

He hates walmart: one contract he was working on a few years back was building a walmart. Once walmart found out that their contractor was using union labor, they pulled the contract. Nice.

[RedRage]

So, what is the reasoning for wages increasing as well?

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by RedRage
So, what is the reasoning for wages increasing as well? dont' confuse payroll/w a direct increase in wages.

an increase in payroll could b an increase in # of ppl hired at cheap rates.
it could b an increase in the payroll of those already hired, just a companywide raise.
it could b that every1 hired 1 really xpensive CEO type person.
that's why they used "payroll increase" & not wage increase.

[Breeze]

Originally posted by RedRage
...the unemployment rate was unchanged at 5.6 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today.

Would you also like to mention that the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that the unemployment rate, though now at 5.6 percent, has been as high as 6.3 percent since Bush took office in January 2001?

Or that it jumped as soon as Bush took office, from 3.9 percent in December 2000, to 4.2 percent in January 2001?

And that it climbed steadily from then until July 2003, where it peaked at the aforementioned 6.3 percent?

Or maybe it's not as fun to tell the whole story as it is to just relay our favorite parts?

[DaysWithoutEnd]

My understanding is that "payroll" usually refers to the number of people ON the payroll, and has no relation to the amount of pay.



Or maybe it's not as fun to tell the whole story as it is to just relay our favorite parts?
Of course! Isn't that what we usually do around here anyway? :D

[postfeminist]

Speaking of SuperSize....

a) go see the movie Super Size Me. i saw it at the esquire when i was in cinci on monday.

b) McD's is getting rid of/has gotten rid of (not sure) the Super Size.

c) McManufacturing. Awesome.

if my new job doesn't work out, it's good to know i'm qualified to make fries.

rebecca r. tucker, m.ed.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by markalot
The president doesn't effect the economy.u kno that's not true.

The reaction to Bush was to change the stock market direction. I do beleive the employment did just as a response to Bush takin office (whether it was b/c it was Bush or b/c of the way he came on board suggestd uncertain times ahead)

[DaysWithoutEnd]

Originally posted by postfeminist
Speaking of SuperSize....
I just had BK for lunch and threw up a little in my mouth.:eek:

[RealNeal]

I'm no fan of the current president, but it's kind of foolish to pretend that 3 months of solid job growth is not good news on the economy. Even though there's truth that quite a few folks have to take jobs that are not as good as the ones they lost. Even though overall employment is still noticeably lower than when W took office.

Does it prove that tax cuts are 'working'? Hardly. But even so, many of those nearly million or so folks with new jobs are better off than they were without jobs... so let's admit that it's *some* kind of progress.

Furthermore, because people's perceptions of these things tend to lag behind actual events, good economic news probably isn't going to dig the prez out of his self-created foreign policy sinkhole.

[stpdgirl]

[i]
But even so, many of those nearly million or so folks with new jobs are better off than they were without jobs... so let's admit that it's *some* kind of progress. [/B]

Right, that's progress when a person who could make a living off of one decent job now has to make ends meet with two shitty jobs, never getting to see their families and working themselves into an early grave. Yea...no...that's not progress.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by stpdgirl
Right, that's progress when a person who could make a living off of one decent job now has to make ends meet with two shitty jobs, never getting to see their families and working themselves into an early grave. Yea...no...that's not progress. now if u made that rhyme I could make an anthem outta that.

or, take the next concept: if ur workin in a shitty hourly job 9-5 & u need every single hr they offer, then when can u look for a better job? They're all 9-5 as well. U can't take an hr out b/c u need that $, u can't call in sick b/c u need that $ (u salary & better job havin folk may hav forgottn that sick pay is a benefit not a mandate) & u just startd workin there so takin a vac is a big "no".

so u'r stuck.

U sign up for the shit-job & u'r stuck until they promote u, u get a raise, or u'r tenured enuf to start askin for days off to look for a better job. & folx, b real, lookin for a job durin the day isn't tough. It's makin it to the interview. My job was made considerably worse when I used my lunch for the interview & didnt' get the job anyway. In fact, I think the fact that I couldn't stay (I had to xplain to them that I couldn't stay to bond/w ppl there b/c I had to return to work) I think that really damagd my chances.

So no, workin for peanuts isn't better than not havin a job. Especially when the job u get doesn't pay the bills & u can't find the time to get a better one.

[RedRage]

Originally posted by Breeze


Would you also like to mention that the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that the unemployment rate, though now at 5.6 percent, has been as high as 6.3 percent since Bush took office in January 2001?

Or that it jumped as soon as Bush took office, from 3.9 percent in December 2000, to 4.2 percent in January 2001?

And that it climbed steadily from then until July 2003, where it peaked at the aforementioned 6.3 percent?

Or maybe it's not as fun to tell the whole story as it is to just relay our favorite parts?

Like the whole story that includes remainder of the dotcom bust which happened under Clinton, or the whole story that includes 9/11?

[RedRage]

You guys are too much. According to some of you, I should believe that many white colar workers are now flipping burgers. Maybe that's the case in Cincy, but not in Louisville.

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by RedRage
You guys are too much. According to some of you, I should believe that many white colar workers are now flipping burgers. Maybe that's the case in Cincy, but not in Louisville.

really?
maybe I should move...

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by classicgrrl
really?
maybe I should move... yah, if i had the $ to move I'd go.

but i dont b/c of the shit-jobs I'v had to keep. Or, maybe, RR, u work in an industry not effectd by it? U need to get out more. On the board just ask how many ppl are recently "underemployed". By that I mean:

Workin for at least 1/3 less per year than another job they held w/in the last 4 yrs. Also including havin 2 jobs or more and their total only equals the previous job's salary or goes above it by 1/4 or less.

[markalot]

Yea, I don't understand it either.

I have no college edumacation, I was hired on as a database programmer while cooping and never finished.

/rant

I was layed off for 6 months in 2002/2003 and at the time had mainly C++ skills that were not in high demand, so during my downtime I worked to learn .NET and put it on my resume with examples and the willingness to prove I knew what I was doing. I got a job with that resume, making more than I did when layed off, and I'm now in a much better position than I was 3 years ago.

And hey, I'm in IT. You know IT, the one where all the jobs have been sent overseas. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing all these 'IT' people whining about being out of work. I know why they are out of work, they suck! If you do just what you are told, no more, then why shouldn't they ship your job to India?


It must be because I'm white. :rolleyes:

[Duemellon]

many tech positions are now multi-position/role

U must hav c++ & ability to sell cars, or design websites & make a widget. There's also a someone stable demand for contractual positions b/c no one wants to commit to a long-term tech guy.

however, none of those really giv u security or the $ u were makin bfore. I feel embarassd for those ppl who got into tech not b/c they likd it but b/c they thought that's where the $ would b.

now that's a joke I lov tellin, especially since one of my ex's did that.

[markalot]

U must hav c++ & ability to sell cars, or design websites & make a widget.

That's quite true and very important.

Why does most software suck? Because the people writing it are not familiar with what they are writing it for. If you needed a chimney repaired would you hire a brick layer who had no experience with chimneys?

Of course whenever anyone loses their job it has to be someone elses fault. Outsourcing, the president, over seas competition, etc. You either accept the fact you will be learning for the rest of your life, or you get to be stuck with crappy low paying jobs.

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by markalot
And hey, I'm in IT. You know IT, the one where all the jobs have been sent overseas. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing all these 'IT' people whining about being out of work. I know why they are out of work, they suck! If you do just what you are told, no more, then why shouldn't they ship your job to India?


This is incredibly offensive.
And massively egotistical.
You're working because you're lucky. No more; no less.

[markalot]

---
This is incredibly offensive.
And massively egotistical.
You're working because you're lucky. No more; no less.
---

So it should not suprise you whan I say I think you're wrong. All that hard work was not luck, though I would agree that getting hired into a company I like was luck.

So luck is:

Researching current programming trends and seeing that java and .net are the two areas I'm missing knowledge in. Deciding I would rather work with .NET, spending my precious little money to get the tools required to learn it.

Luck is:

Spending 10 hours a day at least writing C# and ASP.NET applications to gain the familiarity with .NET.

Luck is:

Fretting over my resume for weeks and interviewing at numerous places and getting turned down.

Sorry, but a lot of people in IT, and note I am speaking of IT here, expect the next job to be handed to them. If you want to be in the technology sector you have to always be learning new stuff.

Perhaps you can explain to me why this is no more than luck?

[Necromancer]

Originally posted by markalot
---
This is incredibly offensive.
And massively egotistical.
You're working because you're lucky. No more; no less.
---

So it should not suprise you whan I say I think you're wrong. All that hard work was not luck, though I would agree that getting hired into a company I like was luck.

So luck is:

Researching current programming trends and seeing that java and .net are the two areas I'm missing knowledge in. Deciding I would rather work with .NET, spending my precious little money to get the tools required to learn it.

Luck is:

Spending 10 hours a day at least writing C# and ASP.NET applications to gain the familiarity with .NET.

Luck is:

Fretting over my resume for weeks and interviewing at numerous places and getting turned down.

Sorry, but a lot of people in IT, and note I am speaking of IT here, expect the next job to be handed to them. If you want to be in the technology sector you have to always be learning new stuff.

Perhaps you can explain to me why this is no more than luck?

It's all just luck because when you flipped the coin to pick whether to be in IT or Computer Science you picked the wrong one :)

J/k j/k.

[Duemellon]

& luck is also finding the "quote button" on ur screen right next to the person's post u want to quote.

in the bottm right of their post.

[markalot]

Originally posted by Duemellon
& luck is also finding the "quote button" on ur screen right next to the person's post u want to quote.

in the bottm right of their post.

Unfortunatly I think that's skill. :(

[RedRage]

Originally posted by Duemellon
[B]yah, if i had the $ to move I'd go.

but i dont b/c of the shit-jobs I'v had to keep. Or, maybe, RR, u work in an industry not effectd by it? U need to get out more.

I get out plenty thanks.

BTW, I work in the dotcom world, just as many on these forums do. We took a serious hit in 2002, but have recovered. I'm also part owner of another dotcom that we launced in December 2002 which is doing very well.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by markalot
Unfortunatly I think that's skill. :( I'm glad I could b of assistance in my smart-ass way.

[Wolverine]

Hard work & perseverance = luck in many cases.

However, when one position = 100-1000+ resumes, one may consider the employee "lucky" in the sense of the long odds against the job applicant.

Congratulations to markalot.

Additionally, congratulations and best wishes are in order for RedRage's company/business.

[Phreon]

Originally posted by markalot
Yea, I don't understand it either.



And hey, I'm in IT. You know IT, the one where all the jobs have been sent overseas. I'm getting sick and tired of hearing all these 'IT' people whining about being out of work. I know why they are out of work, they suck! If you do just what you are told, no more, then why shouldn't they ship your job to India?


(Color emphasis added)

Quite possibly the most idiotic, myopic thing I've ever read here on the WOXY boards. If you just shut up, why shouldn't they ship your job away? How 'bout they can save assloads of cash by farming your work to lands where the labor laws are lax or unenforced. If 5/3 can dump it's IT staff, it can reduce or eliminate the H.R. people devoted to them, healthcare costs, pension costs, worker's comp costs and even the physical space they occupy.

In the case of 5/3, it's not even shipping it's jobs overseas, just to an outside contractor. Some of the people are "lucky" enough to be hired by the contractor, but their healthcare coverage, salary, sick time and vacation time have all been reduced.

Follow the logic trail if you can. If 5/3 hires a company to outsource their I.T. to, a company that employs the exact same people to do the exact same job, and can still save money after paying the contractor's fees, where are the cost savings coming from? Who is getting shafted, 5/3, Pomeroy or the employees?

If you think by being a silent code monkey, you have job security, you're delusional. Sure, staying up to date is critical, but if you think for one second that most companies don't view the services you're performing as easily duplicated (by somone 5000 miles away), you're insane.

I think most people "In the know" will tell you that the quality from outside contractors is not as high as from someone in house who actually knows the systems and actually gives a damn about their job, but my experience is that it is a rare company where a person "in the know" actually gets to make the decisions. Usually it's some H.R. nazi who has no concept of the value of creative thinking, problem solving skills or elegantly simple solutions. They want paper certifications and low cost. PERIOD. Demonstrating you can think beyond your training and strong work ethic means little when you're putting a resume in front of a person who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Historically, I was lucky enough to land I.T. jobs where they valued my skills and abilities and was able to prove myself as a valueble member. Most of the time I fell into a role I wasn't even hired for, but mastered it nonetheless.

In these days, you have a glut of paper cert. jocks vying for decreasingly abundant jobs. To compound problems, you have recruiters as middle men who hold all the keys. You can't find out who you're sending a resume to unless they deem you a canditate that'll make them a good commission. So your resume is a perfect fit for a laundry list of wierd technologies they require except one? In the trash bin it goes. Nevermind that you can come up to speed with Citrix in about a week; tough shit. Or the job as a Unix network admin you're a sure fit for, except that they require you to have an MCSE ticket? What kind of lunacy is that?

You can keep clinging to your belief that being a silent automoton will keep you safe, but if you truely believe that, then buddy, you don't know dick about the I.T. industry. If you can't set yourself apart, you're no more than a replacable cog.

Phreon

[Breeze]

Originally posted by RedRage


Like the whole story that includes remainder of the dotcom bust which happened under Clinton, or the whole story that includes 9/11?

Ah, but that's changing the subject, isn't it? If you've run out of things to say about the point you chose to argue, then say so. Apple and oranges, my friend.

[RedRage]

Originally posted by Breeze


Ah, but that's changing the subject, isn't it? If you've run out of things to say about the point you chose to argue, then say so. Apple and oranges, my friend.

How is it changing the subject? Are not the dotcom bust and the tragedy of 9/11 both very large factors in many lost jobs?

Keep in mind, I didn't change the pretext of my orginial question, someone else decided to bring up the whoe story, so I brought up the whole story.

[markalot]

Quite possibly the most idiotic, myopic thing I've ever read here on the WOXY boards. If you just shut up, why shouldn't they ship your job away? How 'bout they can save assloads of cash by farming your work to lands where the labor laws are lax or unenforced. If 5/3 can dump it's IT staff, it can reduce or eliminate the H.R. people devoted to them, healthcare costs, pension costs, worker's comp costs and even the physical space they occupy.

Myopic:

Lack of discernment or long-range perspective in thinking or planning.

5/3 has dumped it's IT staff? Tell me more please.

[Phreon]

I didn't say 5/3 has dumped all of it's I.T. staff; you're implying it.


Of course it's short sighted for companies to farm their jobs out like this. Unfortunately, it's still happening, all for the sake of the bottom line. All that's important is how much money they can make RIGHT NOW; the long term stability of a company is a second class issue when the CEO is a bungee boss in there just to inflate his stock options before he cuts and runs.

And yes, 5/3 is actively migrating as much of it's in house I.T. functions to outside vendors as it can. It is happening to people I know.

Fifth Third outsourcing 80 tech jobs (http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/06/17/biz_fifththird17.html)

You think it'll end there? Right.

Phreon

[DudeMan]

Good article from Thomas Sowell on outsourcing jobs. (http://www-hoover.stanford.edu/publications/digest/042/sowell.html)

[markalot]

Originally posted by Phreon
I didn't say 5/3 has dumped all of it's I.T. staff; you're implying it.


Of course it's short sighted for companies to farm their jobs out like this. Unfortunately, it's still happening, all for the sake of the bottom line. All that's important is how much money they can make RIGHT NOW; the long term stability of a company is a second class issue when the CEO is a bungee boss in there just to inflate his stock options before he cuts and runs.

And yes, 5/3 is actively migrating as much of it's in house I.T. functions to outside vendors as it can. It is happening to people I know.

Fifth Third outsourcing 80 tech jobs (http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/06/17/biz_fifththird17.html)

You think it'll end there? Right.

Phreon

I didn't mean to imply all, but I am aware of some.

I think it will go further. Many of those jobs went to Cardinal technology, and they have really good benefits. Something else Cardinal has is a management structure that knows how to tell a good IT professional from a rotten egg.

It was you that responded to my comment about shipping jobs to India, implying that 5/3 was doing the same 'kind' of thing but using a local contractor. The argument is bunk, and you're just trying to latch onto it. Good companies to what's good for the bottom line, that will never change, so instead of whining about it IT people need to understand why and fix it.

[Phreon]

Good companies do what's best for the bottom line, yes. That's not always what's best for it's stability.

So IT professionals need to fix that they are only as valueable as the bottom line says they are? I suppose they'd better just shut up, do what they're told and quit bitching when their salary, bens, etc are usurped.

And I suppose it doesn't hurt that we have an IT industry that keeps duping congress into believing there's still a massive shortage and that more H1B's are the only answer.

In a related note, I always find it interesting that studies saying the jobs outsourced are being replaced with new ones never mention what kind of jobs are filling the gap. Why is that? Could it be that they're counting the explosion of service sector jobs as a replacement for the ones flittering to other countries?


Just a thought,

Phreon

[Duemellon]

workin directly for the company in the late 90's = (100% of possible pay for role)

then, job is outsourced, but u'r lucky enuf to follow it to the contractin company. U get benefits similar to the one bfore, maybe dental is more, & no retirement plan, but hey, close enuf. Now ur pay is at 80% what it was.

Then, the company says "Hey, I hear this other company can do it cheaper" so they re-outsource it to another one, less benefits & at 60% of the previous pay.

Now that same company says, look, Bangladesh is having a 2:1 sale on IT staffers, so we'll just contract out to there. U go along, out to the Eastern world, for 10% of ur original pay & no mentionable benefits.

[DudeMan]

Alternate view: Duemellon gets promoted to executive, and he wants to do the 'right thing' by keeping all jobs in house and pay phat-wages and great benefits.

Competitors outsource non-core business functions and concentrate on their competitive advantage, thus enabling them to provide services for much lower price and with higher satisfaction.

Duemellon Corp can't compete with the lower prices, so it goes bankrupt. And now, no one at said company has a job anymore, much less the jobs that were "saved" from being outsourced.

It's a nice thought to 'save' jobs, but that's not how it works.

[yoshomon]

I love when humans become are turned into variables.

[DudeMan]

Yeah, that's a nice thought Yosh, but if you had been in charge 200 years ago we'd still be riding around in horse-drawn carriages and reading by candle light, because you would've refused to allow buggy-whip and wax-making jobs to be lost to car-makers and light-bulb manufacturers.

[markalot]

As usual the single arguement has turned to many.

The point is IT workers were fat and lazy. The .COM revolution employed so called IT workers that did not know their ass from a hole in the ground and now most of them are out of a job and whining about it. I worked with some of them, I know how bad they were. orse, when I got layed off and had to spend time in job placement listening to their stories ... I would ask, so what are your skills? Um, I did some visual basic and I would put hard drives in computers and do backups and stuff. How much did you make? 90K ... WHAT!

Unfortunatly business overreact, as they always do, and some of the good people are still under-employed, but that will change.

As far as the contractor - to - contractor - to - bangladesh ... it's a nice story, but doesn't happen. Training costs too much. I'm sure you can find an example of a company that does it, and I'm sure they will be out of business soon enough.

From what I understand 5/3 has a lot of long term deals with Cardinal, and a lot of other contractor types wanted to get into that action, even at lower prices, but 5/3 is happy and will not change.

Good companise focus on the bottom line, and that's a good thing, because the bottom line included cost of production, cost of maintenance, and cost as it relates to customer satisfaction. That means they don't just focus on the cheapest contractor, they are looking for the best contractor.

[Duemellon]

DM is right, as I said.

I defend the company's right to hire, fire, & outsource according to their bottm line, that's silly for us to tell companies they can't. That ruins our competitiv edge in the rest of the world. We'd hav to change our slogan from "Give us your weak & tired" to "Hey, go to the US for the food but work in Mexico."

However, we'r (the companies) r takin a "what can i do?" plea. It's a social thing. Certain other nations hav lil to no labor laws so we can't compete/w our citizen-protectiv laws. Those laws r becomin more of a burden than a help. After all, if ur Union demands a strike at ur plant b/c they closed shop #202 to get it overseas then they'll just close ur shop & ship it overseas soon enuf.

What's the solution?

Increase the power of the laborer in other countries. Bring them up to our level (at least closer) so they demand enuf pay to make them come back to us! Those poor suckas r happy workin for peanuts b/c they hav no ability to stand united. We gotsta culturize them ASAP!

[yoshomon]

Originally posted by Duemellon
We gotsta culturize them ASAP!

Ugh. The 'social justice movement' - or dare I say anticapitalist movement - is way ahead of north america is almost every region of the world, especially south america. We need to catch up with them asap and present a real threat to capital at home.

America is actually a really bad example of a country with good labor laws and a strong labor movement. The working class here in the USA has been on the defensive since the 70's. Americans work more today than they did in the 1930's and a working class family has less spending power now than it did thirty years ago.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by watusi
wow, this time i'm impressed. never let it be said thatRoy Jones is a total asshat.

no way. Yah, I can be can't I?

Sorry u didn't like what I had to say, do you hav somethin more? U kno I always enjoy ur posts.

[BigSugar]

when did this country ever promise anyone a job? or the right to continue in a job once you had it? or the continuation of non-wage benefits like pensions/ira's/health insurance/etc that no longer serve the needs of the company or it's shareholders? it's a bitch to get fired, but that's life. recognize your weaknesses, adapt, overcome.

[Breeze]

Originally posted by BigSugar
it's a bitch to get fired, but that's life. recognize your weaknesses, adapt, overcome.

Quite so. The dot-com complaints don't sound all that different from the ones espoused by the steelworkers who got the ax in the late 70s/early 80s.

Yes, things were once better for you in your industry. Then that time passed, it isn't coming back, and no amount of complaining or wishful thinking will make it so.

[Duemellon]

the thing worth lookin into is how our stable/midclass job force will b shiftin from manufacturin staff to service providers & retailers.

If everyone in other nations r able to do our production work for considerably less there is no incentiv for companies to retain their workers here. The only jobs that abosolutely must remain here are services that must b done in-person or faster than an international entity can deliver, & those who sell out-of-US products to the US ppl.

The US govn't (fed & loc) hav done their best to bring manufacturin jobs back, but the amount of tax cuts given to the businesses rn't goin to save them from the major dispairity in wages.

face it folx, we gotta bring those other ppl up to speed actively not passively, or we gonna get more & more screwd.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Duemellon
i would xplain that as C++ & SAP admins learnin how to punch holes in widgets.
Im an oracle admin and Java programmer and had 0 problem finding a job in 2002, I don't know what most of these folks are talking about, with the exception of the job market bottoming out in silicon vally due to the high cost of living and jobs moving to the midwest (how I got a job :D yaaaay cheap Ohio!)

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Duemellon
the thing worth lookin into is how our stable/midclass job force will b shiftin from manufacturin staff to service providers & retailers.

If everyone in other nations r able to do our production work for considerably less there is no incentiv for companies to retain their workers here. The only jobs that abosolutely must remain here are services that must b done in-person or faster than an international entity can deliver, & those who sell out-of-US products to the US ppl.

The US govn't (fed & loc) hav done their best to bring manufacturin jobs back, but the amount of tax cuts given to the businesses rn't goin to save them from the major dispairity in wages.

face it folx, we gotta bring those other ppl up to speed actively not passively, or we gonna get more & more screwd.

Service includes consultation companies and IT by the way. We are the ones willing to pay for cheaper products from out of the country, thats why they are shipping manufacturing out of the country (I was an aerospace manufacturing engineer for 4 years). If people didn't bitch so much about airline costs, clothing costs, furniture costs, that many jobs wouldn't be leaving, plus we are paying for them. Last time I heard John Kerry wasn't running around screaming BUY american at ANY PRICE. Heinz ketchup is mostly not even produced in the U.S. due to labor restrictions (i.e. the wage gaps). So you pick, 10 dollar ketchup, or a guy making 40k a year to make the ketchup. We are becoming a more service ended society, and that is not a bad thing. I take it personally when people refer to service jobs as being "mcjobs", myself and a lot of good people I know having been doing these sort of jobs for some time now. Thats my piece.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by markalot
As usual the single arguement has turned to many.

The point is IT workers were fat and lazy. The .COM revolution employed so called IT workers that did not know their ass from a hole in the ground and now most of them are out of a job and whining about it. I worked with some of them, I know how bad they were. orse, when I got layed off and had to spend time in job placement listening to their stories ... I would ask, so what are your skills? Um, I did some visual basic and I would put hard drives in computers and do backups and stuff. How much did you make? 90K ... WHAT!

Unfortunatly business overreact, as they always do, and some of the good people are still under-employed, but that will change.

As far as the contractor - to - contractor - to - bangladesh ... it's a nice story, but doesn't happen. Training costs too much. I'm sure you can find an example of a company that does it, and I'm sure they will be out of business soon enough.

From what I understand 5/3 has a lot of long term deals with Cardinal, and a lot of other contractor types wanted to get into that action, even at lower prices, but 5/3 is happy and will not change.

Good companise focus on the bottom line, and that's a good thing, because the bottom line included cost of production, cost of maintenance, and cost as it relates to customer satisfaction. That means they don't just focus on the cheapest contractor, they are looking for the best contractor.

Wow another fantastically stupid quote from an uninformed fuckwhit.

[markalot]

Originally posted by Shrike


Wow another fantastically stupid quote from an uninformed fuckwhit.

lol

[Shrike]

Originally posted by markalot


lol, so you explain it then ass hat. Or are you one of those overpaid fat asses thats sits in a room and makes sure the Oracle server is backed up nightly.

see my explanation a couple posts before, and I would love to see you try to backup an oracle server, its not my forte, but I know backup and recovery experts that make more dollars in a week than words you mispell in a month on these boards.

[Duemellon]

hey guys, let's stop arguin on topic & make it personal!

put down ur dissentin views, ur tit-for-tat point/counterpoints & start talkin about salaries, education, & individual worth as a human being!

yay!

fun for everyone!

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Duemellon
hey guys, let's stop arguin on topic & make it personal!

put down ur dissentin views, ur tit-for-tat point/counterpoints & start talkin about salaries, education, & individual worth as a human being!

yay!

fun for everyone!
nuhhh sp34k l1k3 y0urzzz l337z0rzzz!'in

[markalot]

http://mitglied.lycos.de/galaxystrike/smilies/96.gif

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by Shrike
nuhhh sp34k l1k3 y0urzzz l337z0rzzz!'in if u'r gonna use the proper usage of a language as set forth by a static non-changin book of guides as ur main tool to discredit those who giv u opposin views, ur argument must b as weak as ur tolerance for differences & change.

[tybigs]

yay!

now we have mid management & Bachelor degrees workin the night shift at McD's & day shift at Circuit City.

Now u can go in, get a SuperSize & also get the best advice on which low rate loans, or CDs to really look into.

The only reason why these "management & Bachelor degrees" aren't living their lives they way you think they should is their own fault or choice (depends how you define their position).

It gets annoying to hear how these poor, smart, pathetic, and highly educated people can't eek out a living in the largest economy in the history of the world. I gets boring how their is one more victim in this country.

We should put them on welfare. Anyone up for living on the Animal Farm?

[Homsar]

Four legs good! Two legs better!

[seafoamgreen]

Damn. I wasn't even on the boards yet. jeez.

[djudge79]

Damn. I wasn't even on the boards yet. jeez.
no shit. kind of like the land that time forgot here. COME SEE A YOUNG MARKALOT SHARPEN HIS TOOTH!

[Mogsu]

nuhhh sp34k l1k3 y0urzzz l337z0rzzz!'in

Leet,
I love it.
4ll 0f y0ur b4s3 4r3 b3l0ng t0 us

[Mogsu]

The only reason why these "management & Bachelor degrees" aren't living their lives they way you think they should is their own fault or choice (depends how you define their position).

It gets annoying to hear how these poor, smart, pathetic, and highly educated people can't eek out a living in the largest economy in the history of the world. I gets boring how their is one more victim in this country.

We should put them on welfare. Anyone up for living on the Animal Farm?


Right,
let them eat cake . May your job soon be outsourced so you can join the ranks of the working poor! Cheers!

Of course, you are not one of those people.

[twentyshots]

no shit. kind of like the land that time forgot here. COME SEE A YOUNG MARKALOT SHARPEN HIS TOOTH!

Ha! they were all so innocent then......

[markalot]

no shit. kind of like the land that time forgot here. COME SEE A YOUNG MARKALOT SHARPEN HIS TOOTH!


My neato angry simlie face still works. Amazing!

As far as the contractor - to - contractor - to - bangladesh ... it's a nice story, but doesn't happen. Training costs too much. I'm sure you can find an example of a company that does it, and I'm sure they will be out of business soon enough.

Darn, I was right. Don't you hate when that happens. :p IT is hiring like crazy and everyone is having a hard time finding good skilled IT workers.

[bjk15]

unsubstantiated rumor: one of my wife's high school friends says that he is getting called into iran.

[REMgirl]

unsubstantiated rumor: one of my wife's high school friends says that he is getting called into iran.

Shit. I hope it's not what I think it is.