Love it or leave it?

[vigoda]

My grandfather, who fought in WWII and stormed the beach at Normandy (sounds like that kid from Stand By Me) use to always say to me, "Love it or leave it." That was when I was a clueless liberal and I would bitch about anything Bush Sr did. Funny thing is that all my liberal friends would complain but none of them would leave. If we hated America so much, why didn't we leave? Why not go to Canada or Spain or somewhere exotic? Because, we all knew we have it good in America! It's easy to sit back and b*tch from the comfort of our air-conditioned homes.

I don't see liberals leaving. And if you do, take Kerry and Dean with you because man, they've lost it.

[Duemellon]

U'r a dittohead, aren't u?

[butter_of_69]

What a great thread starter.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by Duemellon
U'r a dittohead, aren't u?


Hell no.

Martin Luther King didn't go after a president trying to get things changed. He went after his people.

[Necromancer]

Love it or leave it, You better gain way
You better hit bull's eye, The kid don't play
If there was a problem, Yo, I'll solve it
Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it

Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla
Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla

[IPrayForSound]

Ah, I see you've bought the party line bullshit that people who don't like Bush don't like America. Good call on that one, pal.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by Necromancer
Love it or leave it, You better gain way
You better hit bull's eye, The kid don't play
If there was a problem, Yo, I'll solve it
Check out the hook while my DJ revolves it

Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla
Ice Ice Baby Vanilla, Ice Ice Baby Vanilla


now THAT is funny!
dum dum dum da-da-dum dum...da-dum dum dum da-da-dum dum...dum dum dum da-da-dum dum...

[vigoda]

Originally posted by IPrayForSound
Ah, I see you've bought the party line bullshit that people who don't like Bush don't like America. Good call on that one, pal.

yaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnn....

[aqualou]

Originally posted by vigoda

Hell no.

Martin Luther King didn't go after a president trying to get things changed. He went after his people.
Actually he called on people (black and white) that grow to a force that a mayor, govenor, and then President couldn't ignore. So yes he did go after a president. You get laws changed by going to the people and the people who make the laws.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by vigoda
Hell no.

Martin Luther King didn't go after a president trying to get things changed. He went after his people. if u believe the only way to change policy in the US is to b president then u'r a sucka.

& there's somethin familiar & disturbing about ur view & tone. Seems like we'v had this discussion/w someone just like u before.

I mean, really, even the most conservative ppl on this board don't believe some of the things u'r spewin.

[IPrayForSound]

yaaaaaaawwwwwwnnnnn....Yeah, nothing's quite so boring as reading replies to a post you started. Seriously though...are you mad or something? I mean, I didn't want to piss in your Cheerios or whatever it is the kids say these days, but it seemed like you were trying to start a discussion. I countered your statement (which, by the way, has been stated umpteen thousand times by conservatives of all shades and moderates of a few shades), and that's not what you were looking for? Oooooh....shit, I get it. This was one of those threads where only people who agree with you were supposed to respond. That's gotta be it, right?

[vanler]

There are a lot of people working very hard to make this country a better place. Continuous improvement. Now that is certainly an ideal that is at the base of this country. There is a reason we can ammend our constitution. To say "love it or leave it" would certainly apply somewhere; say, a dictatorship.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by Duemellon
if u believe the only way to change policy in the US is to b president then u'r a sucka.

& there's somethin familiar & disturbing about ur view & tone. Seems like we'v had this discussion/w someone just like u before.

I mean, really, even the most conservative ppl on this board don't believe some of the things u'r spewin.

as long as i'm a jive sucka.

[vanler]

here ya go vigoda. Clickity (http://www.truthout.org) Just trying to show how hard it is to keep an open mind. Emotions are irrational and can block us from seeing all ther is to see, but we are free to disagree with it once we've actually seen it.

[butter_of_69]

Here's a post that this troll might understand:

Vigoda, you are clearly angry about your small dick size, and your anger shows through in your posts. I'm sorry it has to be this way, but there are things to be done about it now. Watching Hannity & Colmes every day should help you since Hannity seems to make you hard.

Oh, and a pre-emptive "yawn" to all your subsequent bullshit "arguments".

Go away now.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by vanler
here ya go vigoda. Clickity (http://www.truthout.org) Just trying to show how hard it is to keep an open mind. Emotions are irrational and can block us from seeing all ther is to see, but we are free to disagree with it once we've actually seen it.

Funny, you call it news however when there if info comes from a conservative it's "propaganda" Hmmmmmmm....

Nuff said.

[vanler]

awfully quick investigation of the site. Regardless, my point remains that a true democratic citizen should inform his/herself with all available information. That includes news sources from neutral parties and sources OUTSIDE OUR COUNTRY. They count too you know. I try to avoid the terms liberal and conservative since it seems all those words do is put up masks and walls. Labeling something in your mind to a certain side can create a 'good vs. bad' attitude. I like to look for facts and issues.

[vanler]

I'll leave you with your hatred and contempt here. Get well soon.

[yoshomon]

vigoda, are you a top or a bottom?

[Wolverine]

America, Love It or Leave It?

by M. Leo Baker

My father used his trump card in one of our recent political debates. That is, he asked me why I did not just leave if I disliked America so much. This, of course, is a variant of the highly sophisticated “ America , love it or leave it” argument. How could I respond to such a well-reasoned attack on my anti-state views (or, as I like to call them, my pro-liberty views)? Maybe the better question was should I even bother to respond to such sixth grade logic.

Unfortunately, this argument is all too prevalent in discussions with state lovers. When the state lovers are backed into a corner with no other arguments to defend their views, just as my father, they often resort to the tried and true “love it or leave it” argument. To refute this supposed untouchable statement, a thorough analysis of it is in order.

Let us start with the term America itself. What does America stand for anyway? Does it stand for the wide expanse of beautiful land located on the continent of North America , for the diverse people peacefully interacting on such land, and for the material prosperity provided by industrious entrepreneurs and manufacturers? If this is what one means by America , then I love it with all my heart. Thus the state lovers should not tell me to leave, because I have already met their required condition of love.

If, on the other hand, America stands for the United States federal government, which steals from people, tells them how to conduct their personal affairs, and incarcerates them for fictitious crimes, then, no, I do not love America . In fact, I hate it, just as anyone would hate the person who stole from him and threatened his life and liberty.

As an aside, this discussion regarding the definition of America applies equally to the “anti-American” argument that is so prevalent today in the news media. It seems that anyone who apposes the Bush administration’s foreign policies (or, for that matter, anyone who apposes any policies of the federal government) is labeled anti-American. If America refers to the people currently located in the geographic region known as the United States , then I am not anti-American. But if it refers to the federal government, and the policies of the Bush administration specifically, then I am rightly called anti-American. The news media should avoid this confusion, however, by properly labeling it anti-Bush instead of anti-American.

Returning to our main analysis, assume, then, that America does stand for the federal government. I do not love it, but why should I leave. Why shouldn’t the federal government leave, or at least leave me alone? By stating that I should leave, the state lovers are telling me that I do not have a right to own property, and that I do not have a right to freedom from physical aggression.

If I have a right to own property, including real property (land), then I have a right to exclude others from such property. This right to exclude includes the right to exclude the federal government and it agents. If I truly own my land, then I have the right to tell the federal government to stick its laws where the sun doesn’t shine, because the land is mine and I can conduct myself on it as I please. If anyone should be leaving, then, it should be the federal government. I am rightly located on my land, while it is a trespasser. When the state lovers tell me to leave, they must assume, then, that the federal government has a territorial monopoly on all of the property located within the United States . In their view, the federal government must own all of the property and is only leasing it to me as long as I obey its commands.

The state lovers must also assume that I do not have a right to be free from physical aggression and threats of physical aggression. If I had a right to freedom from such aggression, then I could tell the tax collector to go to hell anytime he came knocking at my door. This, of course, is not an option allowed by the state lovers. If I refuse to pay my taxes, the federal government will come to arrest me. If I resist arrest, government agents will shoot me. So the state lovers are telling me to love being robbed at gunpoint or leave. Nice guys, these state lovers.

In conclusion, the only way that the state lovers’ “love it or leave it” argument holds up is if they concede that (1) America stands for a tyrannical federal government, (2) that no one has the right to own property, and (3) that everyone must be subject to threats of physical aggression. Seems like a very bleak place to live if you ask me.



June 25, 2003

http://www.strike-the-root.com/3/baker/baker1.html

[vigoda]

Originally posted by yoshomon
vigoda, are you a top or a bottom?

a one-piece.

[vigoda]

Sorry Wolverine...too many words, not enough pictures. Have you ever read Go Dogs Go? Same thing...too many words.

[vanler]

Never thought I would actually use that 'Ignore List', but I guess they made it for a reason.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by vanler
Never thought I would actually use that 'Ignore List', but I guess they made it for a reason.

LOL...again...and...again...and...on...and...so... forth...

[vigoda]

Originally posted by Wolverine


LOL...again...and...again...and...on...and...so... forth...

on and on til the break of dawn?

[72valiant]

am i the only one? i have only lived in the united states and in ohio. (except for my first nine months in germany). i am not nationalist in the least. i mean, i haven't been to all the states or met all its people or their leaders. so many people claim this is the greatest country ever. how many have lived elsewhere? what is your barometer for making this decision? granted, there are places i wouldn't want to set up shack. but there are quite a few i wouldn't mind trying out. the main thing keeping me here is family and a sense of familiarity.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by 72valiant
am i the only one? i have only lived in the united states and in ohio. (except for my first nine months in germany). i am not nationalist in the least. i mean, i haven't been to all the states or met all its people or their leaders. so many people claim this is the greatest country ever. how many have lived elsewhere? what is your barometer for making this decision? granted, there are places i wouldn't want to set up shack. but there are quite a few i wouldn't mind trying out. the main thing keeping me here is family and a sense of familiarity.

We had foreign exchange students at our house from Germany, France, Spain, Australia and Japan. They all like America better, especially the Japanese guy.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by butter_of_69
Here's a post that this troll might understand:

Vigoda, you are clearly angry about your small dick size, and your anger shows through in your posts. I'm sorry it has to be this way, but there are things to be done about it now. Watching Hannity & Colmes every day should help you since Hannity seems to make you hard.

Oh, and a pre-emptive "yawn" to all your subsequent bullshit "arguments".

Go away now. And B069 gets a yellow card.

wtg, they're subbin u out right now.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by butter_of_69
Here's a post that this troll might understand:

Vigoda, you are clearly angry about your small dick size, and your anger shows through in your posts. I'm sorry it has to be this way, but there are things to be done about it now. Watching Hannity & Colmes every day should help you since Hannity seems to make you hard.

Oh, and a pre-emptive "yawn" to all your subsequent bullshit "arguments".

Go away now.

Small dick size? YOUR MOM disagrees. That's my feeble attempt at a joke.
I don't watch Hannity and Colmes, sorry. I cant look at that Colmes guy, he looks like a bug.

[yoshomon]

Favorite lube?

[vigoda]

Originally posted by yoshomon
Favorite lube?

Don't have one. But my friend looooooves AnalAnarchy, she swears by it!

[matt]

flame bait: n.
[common] A posting intended to trigger a flame war, or one that invites flames in reply. See also troll.

To that end, I'll say this: only cowards run and don't vote.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by matt
flame bait: n.
[common] A posting intended to trigger a flame war, or one that invites flames in reply. See also troll.

To that end, I'll say this: only cowards run and don't vote.

it's only a flame thread if you dont agree with it. if everyone agrees then it's not a flame thread. if some agree and some don't then it's a ROYAL RUMBLE!!!!

[matt]

Whatever, dude.

this thread deserves a healthy dose of Napalm.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by matt
Whatever, dude.

this thread deserves a healthy dose of Napalm.

Geeeeeeeeesh. Some people.

[yvette7ica]

Originally posted by vigoda
if everyone agrees then it's not a flame thread.

You're right! So this isn't a flame thread, but a thread for making fun of the shit stirrer.

I cant look at that Colmes guy, he looks like a bug.

Yeah...some people's opinions aren't worth listening to if they aren't asthetically pleasing. That's why I only watch MTV and CNN Headline News.

[monkey neck]

Why isn't it flame bait when there's all this ranting and raving about "other" issues.

Please people. Let him rant for cryin out loud.

Either love this board or leave it!;)

I gotta tell you, vigoda, I'm leaning toward agreeing with you. There! Flame away at ol' Monkey Neck, too! C'Mon! C'Mon, I can take it! MOMMY!

[Phreon]

Of course this thread is flame bait. These are the WOXY boards and conservative opinion has been offered. Heckling, ridicule and mass chaos will ensue.

Vigoda, get used to being treated like a tree killing, stream polluting, baby eating, class elite conspirator. Even if you only earn 26K a year.

Phreon

[IPrayForSound]

Whatever. He used the same old sad line that's been used against those who dissent for decades and he got called on it. Every time a "liberal" posts something inane or insane about Bush, the "conservative" crowd jumps their shit. It goes both ways, and playing the victim is useless.

[RealNeal]

“The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”



“Teddy Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star”, 149
May 7, 1918

[The Mad Hater]

telling everybody who disagrees with you to get out? nah, that's not going to accomplish anything. you should physically attack everbody who disagrees with you. if you manage to not get your ass kicked, then you made your point, and they won't bother you anymore!

I'd start with Frost. he's obviously begging for a whuppin. show him why the USA is the GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!

[monkey neck]

Originally posted by matt
this thread deserves a healthy dose of Napalm.

matt, I thought of you in a meeting at work the other day. The guy that was leading the meeting mentioned that the state I work with, being New Jersey, is small enough that a little napalm would take care of it.

And he kept going back to that time and time again...every so often, he'd just say "Napalm".

Cracked me the heck up.

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by RealNeal
“The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.”


“Teddy Roosevelt in the Kansas City Star”, 149
May 7, 1918

Excellent post. I need to find my book of famous quotes-they're timeless and priceless.

[Duemellon]

touched.

Frost is touched. now I miss my dog yo

[the happy prole]

http://www.randomville.com/bio.jpeg

[The Mad Hater]

for those that criticize our President and government, where would you have them go?

there's nowhere to hide from America. let's say Frost and Yosh and their ilk take off for some European country. they're still going to criticize the United States, because it's foreign policies affect everyone, globally. it's economics, the same. so I think it's better to criticize from within, than from outside. and really, I don't think anyone on these boards truly hate America. they just hate what it stands for, and they hate its President. personally I disagree, on many points not all, but showing someone the door because they don't conform to your idea of patriotism is counteractive to what patriotism really stands for. love of country, and countrymen. protection of our freedoms, preservation of our diversity. equality, harmony, let's all sing together now.

[yoshomon]

For the most part, I plan on remaining in Cincinnati for my life. I tend to come from the love it, leave it, change it, or blow it up school of thought. Just as long as you dun stare passively at it you'll be alright.

vigoda is gonna be the next Andreas Baader. It'll be smashin'.

[The Mad Hater]

if I see one more picture of that fucking dog I'm Patriot Act-ing all of you fuckers. I'm talking jail cells and broken fingers, assholes.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by yoshomon
For the most part, I plan on remaining in Cincinnati for my life. I tend to come from the love it, leave it, change it, or blow it up school of thought. Just as long as you dun stare passively at it you'll be alright.

vigoda is gonna be the next Andreas Baader. It'll be smashin'.

Andrea Baader!? Really?! I'll be stunnnnnnnning!

[vigoda]

Originally posted by Phreon
Of course this thread is flame bait. These are the WOXY boards and conservative opinion has been offered. Heckling, ridicule and mass chaos will ensue.

Vigoda, get used to being treated like a tree killing, stream polluting, baby eating, class elite conspirator. Even if you only earn 26K a year.

Phreon

72000 a year, thank you. I must admit, the "baby eating" is a new liberal one i have yet to hear. I like it.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by IPrayForSound
Whatever. He used the same old sad line that's been used against those who dissent for decades and he got called on it. Every time a "liberal" posts something inane or insane about Bush, the "conservative" crowd jumps their shit. It goes both ways, and playing the victim is useless.

It goes both ways. Everytime Bush does something, libs go nutty so don't make it seem one sided. I disagree with a lot of what Bush stands for and at least I will stand against it, however, Kerry, come on. Kerry will wreck America.

What happened to Liberman? I really liked his ideas. Too middle of the road I guess.

[IPrayForSound]

Originally posted by vigoda
It goes both ways. Everytime Bush does something, libs go nutty so don't make it seem one sided. Jesus, man... you even QUOTED me as saying "It goes both ways". How can you possibly argue something that I said BY REPEATING IT?!

[vigoda]

Originally posted by IPrayForSound
Jesus, man... you even QUOTED me as saying "It goes both ways". How can you possibly argue something that I said BY REPEATING IT?!

I wasn't arguing. I was just restating.

[IPrayForSound]

I apologize...it was the "so don't make it seem one sided" part that made it seem argumentative.

[vigoda]

Originally posted by IPrayForSound
I apologize...it was the "so don't make it seem one sided" part that made it seem argumentative.

Whooops, what I meant to say is that libs do too it so it's not just one sided...as in only conservatives do it. both partys do it is what i meant.

[72valiant]

Originally posted by vigoda


Whooops, what I meant to say is that libs do too it so it's not just one sided...as in only conservatives do it. both partys do it is what i meant.

what two parties? someone having a party and not call me?

[vigoda]

Originally posted by 72valiant


what two parties? someone having a party and not call me?

I don't know why but I almost did a spit-take laugh at that. Hot coffee on keyboard, not good.

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by yoshomon
vigoda, are you a top or a bottom?

Now THIS is funny!
:D

and his response: "a one piece".
must not be gettin' any.....

give me the money to move and I'm gone baby....