Cost of War

[ApplesauceDave]

The running tally on the cost of the Iraqi Attacki, and what the money could have been better spent on.
Cost of War (http://www.costofwar.com)

[tobedawg]

Thanks for posting this!!

And just think.. The Republicans are supposed to be the "Fiscally Conservative" Party..

Well.. I guess "death and destruction" is absolutely priceless!

[JSpaceman]

Damn, that is insane... and what a great quote-


"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

President Dwight D. Eisenhower
April 16, 1953

[tohold]

http://boasas.com/?c=284

[The Mad Hater]

we could have given 1,098,059 "housing units" away for free, no questions asked? damn. I want my free fucking house. to think that I've been suckered into working for the one that I own.

maybe someday I'll need the government to give me what other people have to earn. but until then, I'm going to work my ass off to put food on my table and a roof over my head. I've been on the other side of the poverty line. and I worked my way out of it. I'm still working my way out of it. statistics like this make me want to throw up.

so the bill for the war in Iraq is piling up? a ruthless and brutal regime has been toppled. it hasn't gone perfectly. lives have been lost. we may occupy the region far longer than any of us had hoped. who now in Iraq is being tortured and killed for their dissenting opinions? where now in Iraq can a terrorist organization hide themselves and their money? could any of this have been accomplished for free?

sorry, I get upset when I'm reading in the Bush-Bashing forum. he's not my favorite President either, but it's getting to be a bit much. he could stop global warming, eliminate crime in America, and organize a lasting treaty among all nations, and people would complain that he stole the funding to do it all from babies and kittens.

*edit: yes, I know it read "built" housing units. my tirade was in reference to those that hold out their hands when they should be finding a job. those that are perfectly capable of doing so, but have learned, from generations before them, that they don't really have to work. they can eat for free and have a home for free. my work often brings me face to face with such people. they treat me with the same respect they treat our government: they were born deserving the services I'm providing them, just as they were born deserving of a government that will shelter them if they don't feel like earning a living. funneling our money into the "less fortunate" instead of protecting America's sovereignty and victims of oppression overseas who can't make a difference themselves? easy decision.

[ApplesauceDave]

I think our arguments and grievances against him are a little more reasonable than stealing from babies and kittens. And besides, he made global warming worse, didn't do a noticable effect on crime, and he hasn't promoted world peace at all.

[The Mad Hater]

nope, babies and kittens. you'll see. global warming, world peace, crime...that was for the sake of a hypothetical argument. I disagree, agree, and again disagree. the biggest threat to world peace is terrorism, not GWB. I'm sure most of you would disagree with that sentiment, but why? our invasion of Iraq was just. name one terrorist event that was just. none of them were, and they will continue to plague the world as long as other nations appease them. America has taken a stand and shown terrorist organizations that we're not going to lie down and take it. we're fighting back. what would you have us do? what will John Kerry do after he is sworn in next January? that scares me more than any tally on the cost of war.

I have issues with the war on Iraq. but I still concede that it was not only inevitable, but necessary. I'm definitely in the minority these days.

[ApplesauceDave]

There have been no found terrorist links with Iraq, there have been no found WMD's in Iraq. Those were the origional reasons for invading Iraq, were they not? Suddenly we don't find them, and our objective turns to liberating the people of Iraq.

Even if their liberation was the reason we had invaded in the first place, there are worse cases of 'oppression of the people' in the world. (His patriot act puts us higher on this list) I find it interesting that we chose the one with the biggest ties to the oil industry.

If you don't want me to argue with your hypothetical example, don't use it to argue with my actual arguments.

[The Mad Hater]

Originally posted by ApplesauceDave


Even if their liberation was the reason we had invaded in the first place, there are worse cases of 'oppression of the people' in the world. (His patriot act puts us higher on this list)

preposterous. I'll rephrase a question I asked earlier. who in America has been tortured and/or executed for their dissenting opinions? how are you, right now, being oppressed? when you go to work, how are you being oppressed? when you eat with your family, or friends, how are you being oppressed? when you post your opinions on this message board, who is coming to get you? have you ever been questioned by an authority figure in regards to your political persuasions? have you ever been denied health care or services because you had an opinion that differed from that of your government?

If you don't want me to argue with your hypothetical example, don't use it to argue with my actual arguments.

I wasn't using my hypothetical example to actually argue with your actual argument. I inadvertantly blended my next statement in with my actual argument of your actual argument of my hypothetical argument. so I guess I did argue with you, actually, on the basis of my hypothetical argument. only because you used an actual arguement to argue with a hypothetical argument. just trying to wrap that one up.

[ApplesauceDave]

What I meant by the patriot act was that our privacy is now in question. It may not be anywhere near the oppression the people of other countries are experiencing, but it is unnessicary and immoral to those who wish to have their privacy respected.

[The Mad Hater]

yeah, but I spelled argument wrong. you win.

[mikeatthemadfro]

the cost of war?

what is the cost of being isolated/alienated/ hated by more and more people every day?

what is the cost of losing freedom of travel?
what is the cost of losing freedom of speech/ privacy?
how many men and women died to create that freedom only to have Bush roll it back in the name of oil?

[The Mad Hater]

Originally posted by mikeatthemadfro
the cost of war?

what is the cost of being isolated/alienated/ hated by more and more people every day?

what is the cost of losing freedom of travel?
what is the cost of losing freedom of speech/ privacy?
how many men and women died to create that freedom only to have Bush roll it back in the name of oil?

you can't travel where you want to? wait, are you talking about being inconvenienced at airports? if so, I see your point. I wish that shit would stop, even if it meant more terrorist attacks. we'll just deal with that when it happens.

have you lost your freedom of speech? doesn't look to me like you have. come to think of it, I don't know one person who has lost their freedom of speech. if anything, this one freedom has been tested and shown to be true more now than at any other time in my life.

you want total privacy? get off the computer, lock your doors, draw your blinds, and be very quiet. nobody will know what you're doing in there!. I promise. otherwise, cell phones, land lines, internet...our privacy becomes more and more forfeit every day as a direct result of technology. George Bush, Bill Clinton, it doesn't matter who has the power. surveillance is the wave of the future, and the government will use it as they see fit. but I bet nobody gives a rat's ass what you're doing on the internet this very moment.

finally, what proof do you have that this war is about oil?

[DaysWithoutEnd]

Originally posted by The Mad Hater
we could have given 1,098,059 "housing units" away for free, no questions asked? damn. I want my free fucking house. to think that I've been suckered into working for the one that I own.


Just to clarify - one possible interpretation...
Housing units COULD refer to programs such as the Ohio Housing Tax Credit, which provides tax credits to developers who build homes for low and moderate income families.

Nobody gets a FREE house, but the developer gets an incentive from the gov't to build AFFORDABLE houses that otherwise would not get built, because it's usually easier and more profitable to build mansions in the suburbs and contribute to urban sprawl.

Yeah boy, housing units instead of guns would be terrible.

[mikeatthemadfro]

Originally posted by The Mad Hater


you can't travel where you want to? wait, are you talking about being inconvenienced at airports? if so, I see your point. I wish that shit would stop, even if it meant more terrorist attacks. we'll just deal with that when it happens.

[contries where moderate/ normal arabs live who now have a growing trend of resentment..]


have you lost your freedom of speech? doesn't look to me like you have. come to think of it, I don't know one person who has lost their freedom of speech. if anything, this one freedom has been tested and shown to be true more now than at any other time in my life.

[the patriot act/ howard stern]

you want total privacy? get off the computer, lock your doors, draw your blinds, and be very quiet. nobody will know what you're doing in there!. I promise. otherwise, cell phones, land lines, internet...our privacy becomes more and more forfeit every day as a direct result of technology. George Bush, Bill Clinton, it doesn't matter who has the power. surveillance is the wave of the future, and the government will use it as they see fit. but I bet nobody gives a rat's ass what you're doing on the internet this very moment.

[orwell was correct then]

finally, what proof do you have that this war is about oil?

[it's impossible to prove anything...but when bush flew the bin ladens out of the country while the rest of the world was in a total lock down...]

[The Mad Hater]

[contries where moderate/ normal arabs live who now have a growing trend of resentment..]
normal arabs? do you mean straight arabs? this doesn't make much sense. are you saying that "normal" arabs can't get into the country? what, exactly, do you mean?

[the patriot act/ howard stern]
how has the patriot act violated your freedom of speech? did you know that as far back as twenty years ago, you could be arrested for saying the word "fire" on an airplane? and what the hell does Howard Stern have to do with anything? he's not in prison, and he hasn't been officially censored. what has happened- and it's about damn time- is that somebody finally put him in check. he has been getting progressively more offensive on the air for years. the line had to be drawn. his show is filthy and offensive to me, and I'm not alone. freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of public indecency.
oh, and while we're on the subject, should we talk about what the ACLU has done for freedoms of speech and expression?


[orwell was correct then]
you're damn right. and Al Gore invented the internet. so it's not Boosh's fault after all.


[it's impossible to prove anything...but when bush flew the bin ladens out of the country while the rest of the world was in a total lock down...]
huh? war for oil? I don't get it. at any rate, the Bin Laden's were in danger of being hunted and killed by militia. was this not the right thing to do? how on earth does this support the war for oil argument?

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by mikeatthemadfro


[it's impossible to prove anything...but when bush flew the bin ladens out of the country while the rest of the world was in a total lock down...]

Except of course...that this statement is misleading.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm

[The Mad Hater]

Originally posted by DaysWithoutEnd


Just to clarify - one possible interpretation...
Housing units COULD refer to programs such as the Ohio Housing Tax Credit, which provides tax credits to developers who build homes for low and moderate income families.

Nobody gets a FREE house, but the developer gets an incentive from the gov't to build AFFORDABLE houses that otherwise would not get built, because it's usually easier and more profitable to build mansions in the suburbs and contribute to urban sprawl.

Yeah boy, housing units instead of guns would be terrible.

finally, a coherent argument.

I would be convinced of the initial argument if I could see that money has in fact been taken from programs like the one you've mentioned as either a direct or indirect result of the war. such a program is a viable alternative to "no-rent" apartment complexes where the poor are placed to essentially be hidden from the rest of society. the development of these types of homes can only make urban environments worse, by continuing to instill an ethic of chronic unemployment and crime.

[DaysWithoutEnd]

It's no secret that education and other programs are being cut. Obviously, it's not a one-to-one guns to butter ratio, because we are also building a massive deficit. Interesting food for thought, nonetheless, no pun intended.