Rachel Corrie.

[yoshomon]

We'll never forget.

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by yoshomon
We'll never forget.

Yup. (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=5864)

[BigSugar]

or forgive.

[IPrayForSound]

Something tells me that were she still around, I don't think she'd care whether or not you forgive her. And really, what is there to forgive her for? Having a dissenting opinion? Being vocally against the policies of the United States government? Standing up for her beliefs, no matter how trivial or silly you think they are, until the literal end? I wouldn't do most of the things she did, but I at least respect her conviction.

[bluelupis]

Originally posted by BigSugar
or forgive.
Hey now. Shame on you. Burning a flag deserves this?
http://www.federalobserver.com/content_images/rachel_corrie_death.jpg

[tobedawg]

RIP Rachel..

We need people like Rachel Corrie who are willing to do what they feel to be necessary to take on a government that refuses to listen the voice of the people.. George W Bush calling the protestors against the war a "Focus Group".. AND what exactly are those religious righters who seem to dictate GW's policies??

I commend Rachel's Courage and strength..

[RichmondVA]

She's no Marge Schott. :rolleyes:

[Smoker29]

Originally posted by tobedawg
I commend Rachel's Courage and strength..

Something tells me that if she really thought the bulldozer was going to run over her, she would have jumped out of the way. I could be wrong, but that's just my gut feeling. Sure, it takes a certain amount of courage to step in front of one of those things, but I doubt she really thought she'd get run over.

So do you guys think she's a hero? Do you think the people that brought down the flight over Pennsylvania aren't? Just curious...

[bluelupis]

Originally posted by Smoker29


Something tells me that if she really thought the bulldozer was going to run over her, she would have jumped out of the way. I could be wrong, but that's just my gut feeling. Sure, it takes a certain amount of courage to step in front of one of those things, but I doubt she really thought she'd get run over.

So do you guys think she's a hero? Do you think the people that brought down the flight over Pennsylvania aren't? Just curious...
Apples and oranges. The folks in PA were heroes. They knew they were going to die but heroes none the less. She is a hero of a different sort. More of a martyr. I do not know if she thought it would actually roll her over or not. I do not know if that guy in Tieneman (sp?) Square knew if the tank would roll him over. I do know that she had time to get out of the way and chose not to for what she and many others believe is right. Even if I do not agree with her motives, I commend her spirit, bravery, and willpower.

[RichmondVA]

We don't know what really happened or what she was thinking, so it's possible she miscalculated.

If the reports are accurate then yes I think it does make her a something of a hero. She wasn't over there to make money or a name for herself. She was protesting something that she believed was unjust and murderous and doing it in a nonviolent way.

But I think the people on the airplane were heroes as well.

[bluelupis]

Originally posted by RichmondVA
We don't know what really happened or what she was thinking, so it's possible she miscalculated.

If the reports are accurate then yes I think it does make her a something of a hero. She wasn't over there to make money or a name for herself. She was protesting something that she believed was unjust and murderous and doing it in a nonviolent way.

But I think the people on the airplane were heroes as well.
From what this sounds like (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/) she had plenty of time to get out of the way. Jeez. That dude backed over her. EEsh. I am simply supporting your statement and adding to it RVA. :)

[daphne]

who the hell is rachel corrie?? :confused:

[red embers]

Originally posted by bluelupis

From what this sounds like (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/) she had plenty of time to get out of the way. Jeez. That dude backed over her. EEsh. I am simply supporting your statement and adding to it RVA. :) Based on that link, some witnesses (from her group) said she was yelling at the driver to stop and was visible to the driver, but other witnesses said she fell behind the dirt pile first, out of sight & earshot of the driver.

Like RVA said, we'll never truly know what happened.

[yoshomon]

A year ago, Rachel Corrie was killed by an Israeli bulldozer as she was protesting the destruction of Palestinian homes. They ran her over several times.

I could care less whether you call her a "hero" or not. Straight up, she was an amazing person who died fighting colonialism.

Thinking about it just makes my determination to get rid of Sharon and the rest of his murdering thugs that much stronger.

[lawdog]

Originally posted by BigSugar (in the Marge Schott thread)
go fuck yourself you self righteous prick.


I think that about sums it up.

I mean, honestly, forgive? Just what in the hell did she ever do that would have required her to ask for forgiveness? Burning the fuckin' flag!? For that she deserved to be crushed to death by a bulldozer? Unbelieveable.

She was an outspoken political activist who was willing to go to far greater lengths than most of us to stand up for what she believed in. To imply that she is owed forgiveness, or in some way deserved the terrible death she suffered is really out of bounds.

[lawdog]

Oh, and for those of you who asked who she was:

Here's a good story from the Guardian. (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,919973,00.html)

And here's a cached version of an AP story (http://www.americanintifada.com/3/3-16-4.htm) that tells a little about her.

[daphne]

Originally posted by lawdog
I mean, honestly, forgive? Just what in the hell did she ever do that would have required her to ask for forgiveness? Burning the fuckin' flag!? For that she deserved to be crushed to death by a bulldozer? Unbelieveable.

um, i don't think he's saying anywhere that she deserved to be crushed by a bulldozer... (and I also don't see how his post from the marge thread is relevant but that's another issue).

i obviously don't know anything about it, since i didn't even know who she was, but to me it sounds like he's saying she burned the flag, he doesn't forgive that. not "she burned the flag, she deserved to be crushed by a bulldozer."

but i see how you could confuse the two [/sarcasm]

[matt]

Last I checked, flag burning was legal - especially in Israel/Palestine. Dosn't mean I agree with it.

[daphne]

Originally posted by matt
Dosn't mean I agree with it.

and it doesn't mean anyone has to forgive her for it. to some people burning a flag is a horrible, horrible, horrible thing to do. what's wrong with them being upset about it?

[lawdog]

Originally posted by daphne
(and I also don't see how his post from the marge thread is relevant but that's another issue).


It may not seem relevant to you, but BS made an enormous deal about how everyone was being insensitive about the death of Marge Schott, who he said was such a great person.

I don't always get everything that Yosh is saying, but I think it's fairly clear that he started this thread as a way of honoring Rachel Corrie by remembering her. Then BS came over here and posted that trolling, inflammatory comment. I was merely highlighting the hypocrisy (which I think was what RichmondVA was doing as well).

I'm not going to argue anymore in this thread, because by doing so I'm contributing to the very thing that ticked me off in the first place--spoiling a thread that was clearly meant to honor someone.

Sorry, Yosh, and thanks for starting this thread. I hadn't realized it had been a whole year.

[yoshomon]

Thankyou lawdog.

[Duemellon]

sorry, every time I see the thread title I keep thinking of Richard Cory. Now he was a good man. My mind is still filled with wonder when I read the evening paper.

[daphne]

Originally posted by lawdog


It may not seem relevant to you, but BS made an enormous deal about how everyone was being insensitive about the death of Marge Schott, who he said was such a great person.

ahh, i understand (skimming...you miss things :) )

[mikeatthemadfro]

I wish her actions in death would be similar to those of a rosa parks...

a symbol that you can't keep crushing people and their spirits for decades and setting arbitrary goals that you impose on them...
and then expect them to behave...
they'd rather die.

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by mikeatthemadfro
I wish her actions in death would be similar to those of a rosa parks...

a symbol that you can't keep crushing people and their spirits for decades and setting arbitrary goals that you impose on them...
and then expect them to behave...
they'd rather die.

Wah?

And, BigSug sure can speak for himself, but I'm just going to guess that his "or forgive" didn't really refer to Rachel Corrie burning a flag in particular, but probably to Rachel's politics in toto.

I have to say that there's not really much I find admirable about her politics, and while earnestness and courage of convictions are generally good traits, I think she was misguided. I don't celebrate her death, but hero? No way.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by slow-dog
I have to say that there's not really much I find admirable about her politics, and while earnestness and courage of convictions are generally good traits, I think she was misguided. I don't celebrate her death, but hero? No way. of course not, it's your type she was rallying/fighting against.

that'd be ironic, for you to agree with someone who's fighting against you.

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by Duemellon
of course not, it's your type she was rallying/fighting against.

Refresh my memory....what's my type?

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by slow-dog
Refresh my memory....what's my type? Do you believe the current war in Iraq was justified and necessary?

Do you believe that Isreal has the right to destroy settlements in the Gaza strip as their fight to protect their citizens' lives?

[RichmondVA]

We don't really know why she was there. If she was just some anti-American political tourist who didn't know what she was in for, then slowdog has a point. I don't agree with her politics myself, although I don't find much to love about Israel either.

Had she joined the PLO this would be a different story. To some large degree, her motivation was neither pro-Palestine or Anti-American but rather pro-peace. I can't say that the non-violent defense of civilians during a war is misguided, no matter what side your are on.

I like to think that civilian protection, not Anti-American sentiment was her primary motivation but it's certainly not clear. I think it's reasonable not to see her as a hero, but certainly her mistakes are forgivable-- especially if one is going to be forgiving of Marge Schott.

[RichmondVA]

Originally posted by slow-dog
Refresh my memory....what's my type?

Busty blondes, 5'5" or taller. Must enjoy hiking, music, pets, and children. Low maintenance. Appreciates art and culture but isn't a snob about it. High intelligence and appreciation for sports a plus.

[yoshomon]

Sometimes it's shocking how irrelavent and (in this case) offensive some posts are.

Look, she was run over by bulldozers, which then went on to bulldoze houses - where people once lived. Sorry to sound whiney, but most of you seem to be forgetting the HUMAN element in this. Colonialism is disgusting. Rachel died fighting against it. Give her some fucking respect.

Over the past year or so I've thought a lot about going to Palestine with the ISM (international solidarity movement). A lot of the work they do is getting AMBULANCES through checkpoints. Oftentimes, even when there are dying palestinians desperately needing to get to a hospital inside, the Israeli soldiers won't let them through checkpoints. Sometimes when an ambulance is on its 4th or 5th trip through a checkpoint in a single night, the soldiers decide to stop letting it go through.

The occupation and extermination of the Palestinians by the Israeli state is an issue that is really personal for me. I have close friends that have family on the West Bank, and I can't even begin to explain how personal it is for them.

Fuck the system that raped the globe for imperialism and white supremacy, that built the gas chambers, that built the berlin wall, that destroyed the twin towers, that built the american detainment camps of WW2, that built the ghettos, that built the wall in palestine, that built prisons, that enforced the apartheid in south africa, that began bombing Iraq on March 20th last year, that forces 3 billion people to work for less then $2 a day, that slaughters billions of animals, that proclaims itself to be "natural", that raises generations on consumerist nihilism, that starves north koreans, that silences dissenting voices in Cuba, that props up dictators in Chile, that spits in the face of queers, that forces drugs into the inner-city, that kills workers to get the Olympic spectacle ready, that murdered Rachel Corrie. Goodnight.

[The Mad Hater]

in all seriousness, yoshomon, your last post actually affected me emotionally. speaking of convictions, I respect yours, and speaking of politics, I often disagree with yours. but that tirade, it had some weight, it spoke to me.

now, seriousness aside, I TOTALLY was thinking of Edward Norton in 25th Hour when I read that.

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by yoshomon
Fuck the system that raped the globe for imperialism and white supremacy, that built the gas chambers, that built the berlin wall, that destroyed the twin towers, that built the american detainment camps of WW2, that built the ghettos, that built the wall in palestine, that built prisons, that enforced the apartheid in south africa, that began bombing Iraq on March 20th last year, that forces 3 billion people to work for less then $2 a day, that slaughters billions of animals, that proclaims itself to be "natural", that raises generations on consumerist nihilism, that starves north koreans, that silences dissenting voices in Cuba, that props up dictators in Chile, that spits in the face of queers, that forces drugs into the inner-city, that kills workers to get the Olympic spectacle ready, that murdered Rachel Corrie. Goodnight.

best.
rant.
ever.

[RichmondVA]

Palestinians eat meat. They treat women and gays quite badly. They have prisons where detainees are routinely physically and mentally tortured. They also bomb civilians. So what system is it exactly you are railing against?

I'm not saying the ISM doesn't do some admirable things, but if your goal is truly to stop those evils listed, pick an overtly non-political group that won't condone those actions from ANY side. I dunno, like Doctors without borders or Amnesty International or Bat Shalom or something.

[tobedawg]

I agree with Classic Grrl, Yosh's Rant is the best Rant ever!!!

It reminded me that no matter who wins the Presidency or whatever office in 2004, the evil corruption of power will still be there and the Corporate CEO's and the Empire will continue to build.. Someway, somehow.. We need a revolution to stop it.. The politicians are too busy thinking about the $$$ and the majority of the American people are too busy worrying about whether or not "Jersey Girl" is a gonna be a box office flop for poor Ben..

[weezer6]

revolution! yeah! let's all turn off our imperialist computers, put down our coffees, cancel our cable, walk directly out of our houses or places of employment, and go live in the woods. fuck supporting a system that you loathe, support yourself naturally: eat some berries.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by weezer6
revolution! yeah! let's all turn off our imperialist computers, put down our coffees, cancel our cable, walk directly out of our houses or places of employment, and go live in the woods. fuck supporting a system that you loathe, support yourself naturally: eat some berries. heh

[BigSugar]

Originally posted by lawdog


I think that about sums it up.

I mean, honestly, forgive? Just what in the hell did she ever do that would have required her to ask for forgiveness? Burning the fuckin' flag!? For that she deserved to be crushed to death by a bulldozer? Unbelieveable.

She was an outspoken political activist who was willing to go to far greater lengths than most of us to stand up for what she believed in. To imply that she is owed forgiveness, or in some way deserved the terrible death she suffered is really out of bounds.

let's see fucknut. did i say a damn word about being glad she's dead?? no. personally, it's sad....tragic even.....

i saw the link about her burning a flag....i had no fucking clue who she was, nor did i really care.....hero? jackass? it's a fine line. will i forgive her for burning the flag....no. am i glad she's dead? no.

so, go fuck yourself you self righteous prick. (btw....that last line was a little sarcastic, so please take it that way.)

[72valiant]

Originally posted by weezer6
revolution! yeah! let's all turn off our imperialist computers, put down our coffees, cancel our cable, walk directly out of our houses or places of employment, and go live in the woods. fuck supporting a system that you loathe, support yourself naturally: eat some berries.

hey, this sounds cool. who wants to start up a commune of 97xers. we could raise chickens and grow broccoli, homeschool our kids, and dance nekkid around the bonfire to the pulsing rhythms of our drum circle. who's wit' me?

[peedub]

Originally posted by 72valiant


hey, this sounds cool. who wants to start up a commune of 97xers. we could raise chickens and grow broccoli, homeschool our kids, and dance nekkid around the bonfire to the pulsing rhythms of our drum circle. who's wit' me?

i'm in charge of chickens...

[bluelupis]

Originally posted by weezer6
revolution! yeah! let's all turn off our imperialist computers, put down our coffees, cancel our cable, walk directly out of our houses or places of employment, and go live in the woods. fuck supporting a system that you loathe, support yourself naturally: eat some berries.
HAHAHAH!
http://people.clemson.edu/~reamj/mcds.jpg

[Duemellon]

so no tech, except for the sacred computer with a sattelite feed for the WOXY from space?

hmm...
dancing naked around a campfire to "Bitchin' Camero" sounds interesting.

[yoshomon]

sigh.

[bluelupis]

Originally posted by yoshomon
sigh.
come now Yosh, a bit of fun keeps people from fighting like cats and dogs. That is all that was meant there. Smile!

"The human race has only one really effective weapon, and that's laughter. The moment it arises, all our hardnesses yield, all our irritations and resentments slip away, and a sunny spirit takes their place."
Mark Twain

[peedub]

Originally posted by bluelupis

come now Yosh, a bit of fun keeps people from fighting like cats and dogs. That is all that was meant there. Smile!


yeah...if nothing else, you educated me and made me re-examine my own values. i have nothing but admiration for anyone that is willing to die for their beliefs.

[classicgrrl]

Originally posted by yoshomon
sigh.

ah, c'mon Yosh! you know if they are poking fun they are paying attention.

you are loved!
...come to the board bash...

[yoshomon]

See about the boardbash... I have a quiet evening of WOXY listening planned with a really close friend of mine.

but...

Everyone come to Global2 (http://www.geocities.com/cincyglobal/global2)! I'm going to have a table and will be doing a workshop on anti-authoritarian organizing. My table will be the one with After the Fall, Green Anarchy, HeartAttack, etc on it. My workshop is called "Building Autonomous Collectives" and will be at 2:15 on April 4th.

[slow-dog]

Originally posted by peedub
yeah...if nothing else, you educated me and made me re-examine my own values. i have nothing but admiration for anyone that is willing to die for their beliefs.

You really mean that you can't come up with a single person who was willing to die for beliefs that you don't admire?
Or even that you loathe?

[weezer6]

it's a shame this chick died, but technically, at least according to the stories i read, she wasn't exactly willing to die. she was trying to beat feet out of there, and didn't make it. sounds more like a whoops.

[Duemellon]

whether she intentionally martyred herself or if it was that she couldn't get out of the way, she lived her protest to a point that put her in danger. I admire that courage.

Secondly, I admire some of the views she holds.

I, however, am not getting on the next plane to Palestine. I think that her death was really ineffectual at this point and couldn't imagine that emulating her life would bring about the solution she sought.

Of course if a hundred more emulated her life then that's a diff story.

[The Mad Hater]

honestly, though, priveliged white girl goes to war-torn nation and gets killed. is anyone really surprised? why do so many take our freedoms for granted? yoshomon, you have the freedom to set up booths that protest imperialist suppression. rachel corrie had the freedom to burn flags, put Bush on "trial", live in whatever town she wanted, and with whoever she wanted. did she hate that freedom? did she hate her privelage? in America- at least now before we succumb to global terrorism- if you stand in front of a bulldozer, the driver stops, the cops come, and you get arrested. maybe stay in jail a night or two. if you stand in front of a bulldozer in Palestine, you damn well might be packing a vest full of dynamite. anyone who is outraged by her murder needs to understand that over there, it's kill or be killed.

[yoshomon]

Originally posted by weezer6
it's a shame this chick died, but technically, at least according to the stories i read, she wasn't exactly willing to die. she was trying to beat feet out of there, and didn't make it. sounds more like a whoops.

Sounds more like the bulldozer intentionally ran her over with intent to kill.

The sad part is, so many people dun even look up and take notice when thousands of palestinians die. But then when a white american dies, they take notice. The hope is that folks will see her death and then look into the story behind it (why was she there? why was that bulldozer there?).

[yoshomon]

Originally posted by The Mad Hater
honestly, though, priveliged white girl goes to war-torn nation and gets killed. is anyone really surprised? why do so many take our freedoms for granted? yoshomon, you have the freedom to set up booths that protest imperialist suppression. rachel corrie had the freedom to burn flags, put Bush on "trial", live in whatever town she wanted, and with whoever she wanted. did she hate that freedom? did she hate her privelage? in America- at least now before we succumb to global terrorism- if you stand in front of a bulldozer, the driver stops, the cops come, and you get arrested. maybe stay in jail a night or two. if you stand in front of a bulldozer in Palestine, you damn well might be packing a vest full of dynamite. anyone who is outraged by her murder needs to understand that over there, it's kill or be killed.

See, it's this kind of thing that really gets me angry. Not everyone in America is priveleged and well-to-do. But on a deeper level, just because someone is worse off elsewhere, doesn't mean we can't make our lives better here.

Confronting capitalism in the "first" world is opening the door to those who are confronting capitalism in the "third world". It's a global struggle - those of us in America, priveleged as we often are, are a part of it.

[Fitz]

i think it is funny

after serving in the military

i support the burning of the american flag. it is a freedom i preserve, respect and will protect and think it is part of the ideals that this country was founded on.

sug. doesn't. he is offended by it.

as for rachel...her death was just one of thousands of needless deaths in that area of the world. is she more visible to us b/c she was american?

[BigSugar]

Originally posted by Fitz
sug. doesn't. he is offended by it.

nice of you to put words into my mouth. wrong ones at that. i don't support burning the american flag. but i sure as hell believe in everyone's right to show their ignorance by doing that if they so feel it. burn baby burn, it just lights my path.

[supra-genius]

"...any flag worth a shit was wove from fire in the first place."

[RichmondVA]

The one thing I don't think you can say is that she took freedom for granted. Perhaps she picked the wrong side and possibly her anti-American views were replaced.

But even in the best of situations, things are tougher over there than they are here. Her willingness to go there is proof of her understanding that freedom is something that requires (and is worth) considerable hardship.

I think it is those of us who sit safely behind our computers and say "What was she doing over there anyway?" that are more at risk of taking our freedoms for granted.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by RichmondVA
I think it is those of us who sit safely behind our computers and say "What was she doing over there anyway?" that are more at risk of taking our freedoms for granted. agreed. Well put. Right-o. Word. Tru-dat. Yeppers.

[The Mad Hater]

Originally posted by RichmondVA
The one thing I don't think you can say is that she took freedom for granted. Perhaps she picked the wrong side and possibly her anti-American views were replaced.

But even in the best of situations, things are tougher over there than they are here. Her willingness to go there is proof of her understanding that freedom is something that requires (and is worth) considerable hardship.

I think it is those of us who sit safely behind our computers and say "What was she doing over there anyway?" that are more at risk of taking our freedoms for granted.

agreed. I don't have issue with the fact that she went. it's the sentiment of outrage at her death that I think is just silly. I was reading up on this the other night, and I came across some message boards in which some people pondered the unfairness of it all, and accused our government of failing her. that's what I find ridiculous. she went of her own accord, and I should hope she of all people understood that she was putting herself in harm's way. anyone who was shocked by her death/murder is living a fantasy.

buy anyway, good point. maybe my own sentiments should be redirected at those pointing fingers, and doing nothing. the people on the street, walking out of Starbuck's, who mindlessly hate Bush, and who ceaselessly criticize our government. I once questioned a co-worker about his hatred for Bush. he couldn't quantify his answer. he brought up the Florida ballots, and he said that Iraq was a mistake. why? he said that we should just mind our own business, and not worry about what's going on elsewhere in the world. I asked him why, then, would he vote for Carrey. because he's not Bush, he says. in a nutshell, this guy's a coward. he doesn't have the slightest clue why he hates Bush. he gets all of his information from soundbytes on the 6 o'clock news. people around him hate Bush, so he should too. it scares me to think how many bandwaggoners like him will be going to the polls in November and making a decision based on what they hear OTHER PEOPLE SAYING. if you want to vote against Bush, it's your right to do so. just know what you're voting for. know your allies and your enemies. don't do it as a fashion statement.

[Smoker29]

Good for you Tobedawg. You are an informed voter. Call ahead and they'll give you a gold star sticker after you vote.

By the way, nice overdramatic response Tobe. I don't think Mad Hater was telling you who to vote for. He was just stating the truth that there are a lot of uninformed voters out there. Jeesh...

Edited to add: In case you're wondering what I was talking about, Tobedawg removed his post.

[Duemellon]

well I'll tell you who vote for:

Kerry.

I wont bother to quantify it, I just wanted to tell you what to do. That simple.

[solomon]

Kerry. Ha!

[The Mad Hater]

Originally posted by Duemellon
well I'll tell you who vote for:

Kerry.

I wont bother to quantify it, I just wanted to tell you what to do. That simple.

well at least now I know who to vote for. thanks Due. I knew you'd come through for me. :)

[weezer6]

i would actually like to see how you "quantify" it.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by weezer6
i would actually like to see how you "quantify" it. (Kerry x 3.1465) + x**2 = Presidency

that's how I'd quantify it.

[The Mad Hater]

if I could quantify on Due's behalf, I would say that he was being a smart-ass.

edited to remove sarcastic comment about Carey. will use said comment in a different thread some other time.

[IPrayForSound]

I'm not voting for Carey 'cause I don't like the way he's screwing up Who's Line Is It Anyway....it was so good back in the day. And really, he looks more like a Dilbert/Babe the pig mix than a donkey.

[The Mad Hater]

IPrayForSound (or again, if I may, IPFS), I don't get it. it was funny, but I don't get it.

I don't know who killed this thread, but I'll accept some of the responsibility. sorry yoshomon. I know that you take the original topic seriously.

[IPrayForSound]

Sorry for any confusion. First off, yes, IPFS is quite fine (heh heh....if I may say so myself....anyway). So, uh, yeah...you can call me that. Secondly, I was referring to Drew Carey as opposed to John Kerry, just 'cause of the spelling. I'm not very funny, though, so the joke didn't work. Sorry.

[weezer6]

Originally posted by Duemellon
(Kerry x 3.1465) + x**2 = Presidency

that's how I'd quantify it.

thank you. i had used 3.1465 r squared, and it came up some dude named rufus funderburk, from west virginia.

[BigSugar]

i used pi (3.14159....) to the 7000th digit, and low and behold, it came back Bush. Jenna Bush. holy crap!!!

[DudeMan]

3.1465
Someone remind me not to board a rocket ship designed by Due.

[Duemellon]

Originally posted by DudeMan
Someone remind me not to board a rocket ship designed by Due. whoever said it was supposed to be Pi anyway?

[slow-dog]

I bump the thread so Yosh doesn't have to! Parents sue maker of bulldozer. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/216218_dozer16.html)

[Orville Wrong]

I bump the thread so Yosh doesn't have to! Parents sue maker of bulldozer. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/216218_dozer16.html)
They're suing Israel, too. Like any suicide survivors, I feel very bad for these people.

[Handy Smurf]

Its tragic what happened, but the bulldozer lawsuit is ridiculous. If they win that one, it could open up a big ol can of worms. Sue Israel if you want, don't know what good it would do, I wish it would accomplish something.

[Orville Wrong]

Its tragic what happened, but the bulldozer lawsuit is ridiculous. If they win that one, it could open up a big ol can of worms.
I don't know the first thing about international law, but suing Cat because they sold dozers to Israel that they knew would be used to harm private property and civilians seems iffy. We sell attack helicopters to Israel legally.

Sue Israel if you want, don't know what good it would do, I wish it would accomplish something.
Failing to evade a bulldozer is almost as bad as being crushed by continental drift. Tectonic plates aren't fast, but they're quick!

[yoshomon]

She stood in front of a bulldozer to prevent it from destroying someone's home. The bulldozer driver saw her and ran her over twice. That's murder.

[supra-genius]

She stood in front of a bulldozer to prevent it from destroying someone's home. The bulldozer driver saw her and ran her over twice. That's murder.

To play the devils advocate, she saw it coming and chose not to move, that means she chose to end her life. But no matter who is the responcible party, suing Cat is nothing more that trying to grab publicity. I dont think they are able to Isreal but hey, here is a large US company that will pay through the nose to avoid bad publicity, let go after him.

[markalot]

This thread was started in order to provide a place for flames.

What a bunch of bullshit.

Oh, and road kill.

[InstantSoup]

She stood in front of a bulldozer to prevent it from destroying someone's home. The bulldozer driver saw her and ran her over twice. That's murder.

And I don't think Catepillar was driving said bulldozer. The lawsuit is rubbish.

[purple_octopus]

My steel-toe work boots are Caterpillars. They're pretty comfy.

I think this is just as stupid as sueing gun manufacturers because a gun was used in a crime.

[Handy Smurf]

It was murder and its a crime what Israel is doing to the homes of Palestinians, but at that same time, there is a slight difference because she did choose not to move
the whole devils advocate thing here, its still murder

[Duemellon]

It wasn't murder b/c she didn't move?

WTF?

that's not even close to a valid argument. That's like sayin someone on a gun range who's steadily taking aim at a bullseye, then, sees someone standing right in front of them FOR 30 SECONDS CLEARLY STATING THEY WILL NOT MOVE wasn't committing murder.

?? how's that??

That was the lamest attempt at victimhood turnaround evah!

[supra-genius]

It wasn't murder b/c she didn't move?

WTF?

that's not even close to a valid argument. That's like sayin someone on a gun range who's steadily taking aim at a bullseye, then, sees someone standing right in front of them FOR 30 SECONDS CLEARLY STATING THEY WILL NOT MOVE wasn't committing murder.

?? how's that??

That was the lamest attempt at victimhood turnaround evah!

To counter your analogy, someone intentionallly steps out into the street in front of moving garbage truck. The driver sees the person but cannot/didnt stop. Is the garbage driver a murderer? The person has put themselves, knowingly, into a very dangerous, possibly deadly situation. I didnt say they driver is absolved of all responcibility and I did not say that thier actions were justified. Murder, means planning, forethought and intent. The driver was not trying to run her over, he was trying to run over a house. Call it criminal negligence, call it manslaughter, call it vehicular homicide, yo can say its alot of things but not murder. Unless you can show me where the bulldozer driver planned to run over Rachel, it isnt murder. A tragic death, but not murder.

[Orville Wrong]

It wasn't murder b/c she didn't move?
Leaving aside the IDF's finding that it was an accident, it was suicide because she didn't move. It is impossible for a conscious, ambulatory person not to evade a bulldozer. The ISM had been (and continues) to perform these actions without other injury, and with an unblemished record of not stopping a single demolition. Corry knew the bulldozer would raze the house, as they had every other time. This time she chose to martyr herself as a publicity stunt.

Also, she was not run over twice. She was not run over once. She was pinned beneath the blade and dragged. She sustained head injuries, but was not crushed, and died at the hospital.

[Duemellon]

To counter your analogy, someone intentionallly steps out into the street in front of moving garbage truck. The driver sees the person but cannot/didnt stop.if the implication is that the bulldozer person couldn't stop due to mechanical limitations of the bulldozer, then yes, but that's NOT the situation here.

The driver had the full capacity to stop but didn't.

As for it being found as an "accident", well I would surely label something that could bring embarassment to me & my govnt as a label. Even if it wasn't the truth (ie: Steven Roach's conflicting testimony that wasn't the focus of his court case but somehow came out after he left the dept & the police internal investigation came out)

[Orville Wrong]

if the implication is that the bulldozer person couldn't stop due to mechanical limitations of the bulldozer, then yes, but that's NOT the situation here.

The driver had the full capacity to stop but didn't.

This was not a day-laborer, and this was not a construction site. It was a military operation in a war zone. She shouldn't have been there. She should have moved. She chose not to. That is so blindingly apparent, I'm going to stop arguing it.

Rachel Corrie committed suicide. It's a selfish and shameful act, and she was a reprehensible and shrill person.

Edited to reduce crassness quotient.

[IPrayForSound]

she was a reprehensible and shrill person. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
That's just all kinds of fucked up.

[Orville Wrong]

That's just all kinds of fucked up.
Now with 30% less fucked-upness!

[jd1]

As someone who has actually operated a bulldozer... When you're driving one, you're deaf & blind. You can't see ANYTHING in front of you, just off to the sides. If you're moving any heavy equipment like that around, you're supposed to have ground guides out on foot to either side who can wave you to stop if you have to for some reason.

What's more, the engine noise drowns out all sound. You wear hearing protection so that you don't go deaf from it. Even if Rachel Corrie had a megaphone, there's no way the driver could have heard her.

This Israeli bulldozer had been modified to have an an armored cab--metal plating with narrow little vision slits. The operator could see & hear even LESS than normal. And the Israelis don't use ground guides because of snipers.

That said, I see no evidence that this was suicide either. My guess is Rachel tripped, or got her foot caught, or waited too long, or just didn't realize that the operator didn't know she was there and expected him to stop. MAYBE she had a deathwish and killed herself... But I think it far more likely this was just a horrible combination of circumstances that resulted in a needless death.

From what I've read about Rachel, she seems like a person who carried around a lot of hate. Ultimately it got her killed. I feel sorry for her.

--JD

[Duemellon]

This was not a day-laborer, and this was not a construction site.that supports my point.It was a military operation in a war zone. She shouldn't have been there.but the Palestinians that lived there shouldn't've been there either because the war was against who? Oh, that's right, when the war is against the Palestinians they should hang around, but any non-Palestinian should GTFO!She should have moved. She chose not to.The military doesn't need to kill unarmed pacifist ppl to get them to move. She wasn't a 275lb American Pro-Football player hopped up on PCP.That is so blindingly apparent, I'm going to stop arguing it.the blindingly apparent thing to me is that they could've simply dragged her away.

It was not officially a war zone, it was military personnel in a police action. They typically arrest pacifist protestors, not run them overEdited to reduce crassness quotient.good move there.

*whew*

U were finta catch all Holy Hell for that one.

[Orville Wrong]

The ISM are not pacifists. They are not peaceniks. They infiltrate the Occupied Territories illegally, after entering Israel under false pretenses. Investigative journalists have taped their meetings wherein they instruct their "commandos" (their term) in methods to deceive Israeli customs to obtain tourist visas.

Members have been caught assisting Hamas in excavating and concealing weapons smuggling tunnels, and assisting terror suspects evading the Shin Bet and Mossad. I think they're scum. I protested their recruiting drives at Ohio State as a student, and can assure you they are dispicable in word and deed.

[Duemellon]

The ISM are not pacifists. They are not peaceniks. They infiltrate the Occupied Territories illegally, after entering Israel under false pretenses. Investigative journalists have taped their meetings wherein they instruct their "commandos" (their term) in methods to deceive Israeli customs to obtain tourist visas.

Members have been caught assisting Hamas in excavating and concealing weapons smuggling tunnels, and assisting terror suspects evading the Shin Bet and Mossad. I think they're scum. I protested their recruiting drives at Ohio State as a student, and can assure you they are dispicable in word and deed.Our police hav been known to sell drugs to kids.

Our CIA has been shown to give weapons to street gangs.

Our govnt has been known to sell terrorists weapons which were used in terrorist acts.

Again, I'm back to the point, r these zones, where the Palestinians r being pushd around, killed, & disenfranchised, only supposed to b occuppied by the Palestinians? Is that some sort've "rule"? To say that someone is a criminal for goin to a place where somethin as morally dubious as this is going on makes me wondr how someone could say "It's okay to treat the Palestinians like that, but we must bar all othr nationalities from enterin the area."

What kind've thought process is that? It's okay to treat the Palestinians like that but we must protect the othrs?

[Emperor Wog]

They infiltrate the Occupied Territories illegally, after entering Israel under false pretenses.

So you agree....infiltrating occupied territories under false pretenses is bad?

[Handy Smurf]

Our police hav been known to sell drugs to kids.

Our CIA has been shown to give weapons to street gangs.

Our govnt has been known to sell terrorists weapons which were used in terrorist acts.

Again, I'm back to the point, r these zones, where the Palestinians r being pushd around, killed, & disenfranchised, only supposed to b occuppied by the Palestinians? Is that some sort've "rule"? To say that someone is a criminal for goin to a place where somethin as morally dubious as this is going on makes me wondr how someone could say "It's okay to treat the Palestinians like that, but we must bar all othr nationalities from enterin the area."

What kind've thought process is that? It's okay to treat the Palestinians like that but we must protect the othrs?

I need clarification here Due, I didnt really follow
Mostly clarification as to how it relates to OW's last post, if in fact it is intended to

[jd1]

Our CIA has been shown to give weapons to street gangs.Wow, source please? Because I'm pretty sure this never happened.

--JD

[Duemellon]

I need clarification here Due, I didnt really follow
Mostly clarification as to how it relates to OW's last post, if in fact it is intended tohe's talking about how the ISM rn't pacifist do-gooder, but I'm askin the question about how is someone a criminal for goin to a place where somethin as this is going on but "It's okay to treat the Palestinians like that b/c they live there."

Basically, his statement that the ISM is a criminal/terrorist organization isn't a point I want to bothr arguin b/c the issue seems biggr than that to me.

Why is he complainin that she wasn't supposed to b there but somehow the Palestinians were?

[Orville Wrong]

Why is he complainin that she wasn't supposed to b there but somehow the Palestinians were?
Good point! Who is she? Does she relate to this thread in some way? Can't imagine what led me to even bring her up.

Sorry.

[Handy Smurf]

Well I totally agree with that. I think that situation is totally messed up, and the fact that Israel (after being there for what, 55 years?) is telling anyone who has a right to what in the region
All the violence there is just sickening to me
Furthermore, I cant understand how followers of a religion can place that kind of importance on a particular area of dirt and sand and have any credibility. Its all superstition if you ask me. Of course the religion remarks don't apply to Palestinians who want to live there simply because their family has lived their for generations...

I would agree that she was asking for trouble going there in the first place, regardless of how noble her intent was. You reap what you sow. I also can't say that she was murdered if in fact the driver was unable to see her in the way

[yoshomon]

Leaving aside the IDF's finding that it was an accident, it was suicide because she didn't move. It is impossible for a conscious, ambulatory person not to evade a bulldozer. The ISM had been (and continues) to perform these actions without other injury, and with an unblemished record of not stopping a single demolition. Corry knew the bulldozer would raze the house, as they had every other time. This time she chose to martyr herself as a publicity stunt.

If I stand in front of a car and refuse to move, can the driver of that car choose to drive into me and kill me?

Rachel Corrie refused to move because she thought that the bulldozer driver would choose to stop. She put her body between the bulldozer and the home because she felt that even someone who destroys homes and ruins people's lives would not be heartless enough to run her over. She was wrong.

That the IDF ruled it an "accident" means nothing. Do you really think they would admit to intentionally killing an american citizen?

[markalot]

If I stand in front of a car and refuse to move, can the driver of that car choose to drive into me and kill me?

Rachel Corrie refused to move because she thought that the bulldozer driver would choose to stop. She put her body between the bulldozer and the home because she felt that even someone who destroys homes and ruins people's lives would not be heartless enough to run her over. She was wrong.

That the IDF ruled it an "accident" means nothing. Do you really think they would admit to intentionally killing an american citizen?


What I find even more amazing is that you think some blue collar bulldozer driver would choose to murder someone.

[jd1]

If he knew she was there, and kept going anyway, that's a horrible crime. But I just don't think he knew she was there. I also don't think the IDF did this on purpose... It's a PR nightmare for them. If the driver did it on purpose, I'm sure they'd cheerfully scapegoat him.

--JD

[postfeminist]

i knew it was going to be ugly in here, which is why i didn't pop in sooner.

What I find even more amazing is that you think some blue collar bulldozer driver would choose to murder someone.

i don't think it's fair to call them a blue collar bulldozer operator?? it was a MILITARY operation.. and our class labels don't really work outside of our borders, IMO.

[yoshomon]

What I find even more amazing is that you think some blue collar bulldozer driver would choose to murder someone.

Oh give me a break.

[JSpaceman]

will i forgive her for burning the flag....no. am i glad she's dead? no.


Maybe you oughta make yourself a little bit more clear next time, as I'm sure someone responding simply "or forgive" to a thread about someone's murder can be misconstrued. Pretty simple.

[JSpaceman]

Oh, and road kill.
How insensitive and prickish.

[Plunkster]

It's great when nobdy knows ya. You can just drop in, survey the prickish shit, and drop out.

[postfeminist]

How insensitive and prickish.

i concur fully.

[markalot]

I am an insensitive prick.

[markalot]

http://www.conspiracyworld.com/index0066.htm

If you believe this site it looks like I was wrong, it was the army driving. Pretty horrible stuff, but then there is no verification that any of this is true.

But it must be true, right, cause we all hate fucking Israel.

[classicgrrl]

It's great when nobdy knows ya. You can just drop in, survey the prickish shit, and drop out.

my bullshit detector is going off...

[markalot]

This and the Scott Peterson thread are the only good ones going. Can't someone bring up another topic we can all yell at each other about?

[Duemellon]

This and the Scott Peterson thread are the only good ones going. Can't someone bring up another topic we can all yell at each other about?u'kno, u could start one that is just some form of manifesto or whatever. I'm sure we'd all luv to critique it.

[foolsgold]

God help me, but every time I see this thread title, I get Simon & Garfunkel stuck in my head.

[Handy Smurf]

God help me, but every time I see this thread title, I get Simon & Garfunkel stuck in my head.

Every time I see your avatar I get this mental image of Clyde Gray riding on Kit Andrews back as she gallops along the track at the Kentucky derby.
Its really freaky too, because Kit has these super long arms and legs and she looks like one of those things from the movie The Dark Crystal

[JSpaceman]

u'kno, u could start one that is just some form of manifesto or whatever. I'm sure we'd all luv to critique it.
Speaking of manifestos, aren't you due/Due? :p

[Duemellon]

she looks like one of those things from the movie The Dark Crystalthe Skexies (I'm sure I misspelled it)

[purple_octopus]

the Skexies (I'm sure I misspelled it)
I thought he meant those horsie things that they rode through the desert... :confused:

[Handy Smurf]

the Skexies (I'm sure I misspelled it)
I thought he meant those horsie things that they rode through the desert...

its been a long time since I've seen that movie, but I think you are correct there purple...of course I dont remember them being ridden through the desert
Anyway, skexies does sound like it could be right. Was anyone else frightened of those things? I've talked to several people who were. Anyone older than I was when I first saw it probably would react differently.