So, do you want to riot tonight or tomorrow? [Archive]

Duemellon

01 Dec 2003, 05:14 PM

skip this post if u'v already read it...
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/20.../loc_loc1a.html

Monday, December 1, 2003
Man dies after brawl with city police officers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Brenna R. Kelly
The Cincinnati Enquirer

A 41-year-old man died after a violent struggle Sunday morning with Cincinnati police officers outside a North Avondale fast-food restaurant.

...
But Roger Webster, Fraternal Order of Police president, said that after the incident the officers were treated like suspects. He said they were questioned for hours, read their legal rights and only allowed one phone call.

"My question to the police administration is, what criminal act are you investigating? You are accusing these cops of being criminals," Webster said angrily outside police headquarters. "That is why they don't want to work, because they are treated worse than the criminals they arrest."
...
Police officials, radio transmissions and the video give a picture of how the circumstances unfolded at the White Castle at 64 W. Mitchell Ave., just west of Vine Street.
... [read all the details as given by the reporter] ...
Jones had a pulse when EMS arrived, but he died within minutes of arriving at University Hospital, Janke said.
...

------------------------------------------------

1st = The guy had a problem, somewhere, in his head. Being that morbidly obese and still hanging around White Castles proves it.

2nd = Did police do something wrong or not? Maybe, maybe not, but someone died. Treating them like a "criminal"? No, if we were treating them like criminals they'd be in jail, not on administrative leave. When someone dies, especially with our police-community relations the way they are, the police are gonna be scrutinized until we, the general citizens of Cincy, believe we can trust their judgements again. So, them being immediately questioned in a manner resembling an arrest is appropriate.

3rd = I'm so glad the reporter was able to give us a full account with proper details about the incident. That leaves no room for misrepresentation of the facts now... right? ugh. Who needs the legislative and judicial branches since we have the media?

4th = I will bet dimes to pennies, that this is gonna create a temporary racial rift. Why? Because the media wants to stir it up and the Po-po will feel persecuted because of it and will throw up the "it wasn't race" defense. Race? Dude was 400 pounds and eating White Castles, he was probably gonna have a heart attack that night. It's not just about race, it's about how our constables on patrol handle situations in general. Yeah, there's a touch of race in there, but IMO I ready to forgive that detail in lieu of knowing what really happened.

Duemellon

01 Dec 2003, 05:20 PM

in other thoughts:

The guy was probably a diabetic at that size, and his rather bizarre behavior could be attributed to an insulin-shock related fit. They become combative.

While watching the vid (which I didn't get to see before the last post) I don't doubt that the police needed to respond with force. That's a duh, but in the same, they weren't using proper force and, after that, they were using excessive force because they weren't using it properly.

I mean, for real, the guy is obviously crazy, or something, and much stronger than his foes, and they're gonna try subduing him with baton blows to his shoulders, back, and legs? Shoulders? Backs? The places on our bodies desiged to take the most blunt-trauma?

When someone is hopped up on drugs; fearing for their life; in insulin shock; or in some psychotic state (as I do believe this guy was) pain is not a concern of theirs. That's why, if you're in a fight for you life, don't ever kick someone in the balls, it's pointless, break their leg; neck; arm; whatever. If you kick them in their balls after they're done rending your intenstines out and flaying them on the ceiling, they'll feel the ever-so-crushing blow from your Ian Stenerud impersonation.

I never once assumed the perp died from his wounds or mishandling, because I didn't know the facts. But it's clear they didn't use the right force &, therefore, were using the wrong force excessively.

72valiant

01 Dec 2003, 05:39 PM

i don't understand the club thing. did they try anything else like pepperspray or stun guns. maybe they should take a lesson from the rodeo and learn to hogtie. now, that would get me to watch Cops (maybe just once).

Orestes

01 Dec 2003, 05:42 PM

according to the enquirer article (of which Due only posted portions), the first two officers to respond radiod a request for an officer with a stun gun, but i am not sure if one ever showed up. they did use pepper spray.

they also requested an officer with experience in dealing with mentally unstable people, but that officer was on another run...

the article in its entirety:

Man dies after brawl with city police officers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Brenna R. Kelly
The Cincinnati Enquirer

A 41-year-old man died after a violent struggle Sunday morning with Cincinnati police officers outside a North Avondale fast-food restaurant.

The fight, which included the nearly 400-pound man hitting officers and police repeatedly striking him with nightsticks, was caught on tape from a camera in an officer's patrol car.

Nathaniel Jones, from 1998 police booking photo.
(AP photo)

RELATED LINKS
Latest video - Includes in-cruiser video showing the incident
Sunday 9News video

Coroner's Statement Regarding Suspect's Death

Within minutes of the struggle ending, Nathaniel Jones was dead.

The six officers involved were placed on administrative leave while several agencies, including police homicide and internal affairs units, the Citizen Complaint Authority and the Hamilton County Coroner's Office investigate.

Assistant Police Chief Richard Janke said the police video shows that the officers followed their training and were justified in using force to subdue Jones.

But Roger Webster, Fraternal Order of Police president, said that after the incident the officers were treated like suspects. He said they were questioned for hours, read their legal rights and only allowed one phone call.

"My question to the police administration is, what criminal act are you investigating? You are accusing these cops of being criminals," Webster said angrily outside police headquarters. "That is why they don't want to work, because they are treated worse than the criminals they arrest."

In June, the Citizen Complaint Authority cleared a police officer of any wrongdoing in the Feb. 9 shooting death of a burglary suspect in Northside.

Of the officers involved Sunday, authorities identified the two who responded first: Baron Osterman, who has one year on the force, and James Pike, a seven-year veteran.

Police officials, radio transmissions and the video give a picture of how the circumstances unfolded at the White Castle at 64 W. Mitchell Ave., just west of Vine Street.

About 5:50 a.m. a White Castle employee called 911 to report that a man had passed out in the grass outside the restaurant.

"He's breathing, but he keeps hollering 19," she told the call taker.

When emergency medical personnel arrived, Jones was awake and "becoming a nuisance" at the restaurant, according to a tape of radio transmissions in which firefighters ask police to respond.

In the video, Jones walks toward an officer, who yells, "Stay back."

Jones then lunged, swinging at the officer's head before he stumbled into the officer, taking him down.

The two officers, Osterman and Pike, jabbed Jones in the torso with nightsticks as they repeatedly yelled, "Put your hands behind your back."

But Jones continued to fight, flailing his arms and grabbing one of the police batons. The officers called for backup, asking especially for someone with a stun gun. Eventually, six officers responded, many of them also using their batons to strike Jones. After a struggle with all six, they got Jones on his stomach and his arms behind his back.

The officers turned Jones over after he was handcuffed over and realized he needed medical help, Janke said.

"He looked to be in enough distress that the officers immediately called for a fire company," Janke said.

Jones had a pulse when EMS arrived, but he died within minutes of arriving at University Hospital, Janke said.

Why Jones behaved as he did is not yet known, Janke said.

During the struggle, officers tried to call for an officer trained to deal with people with mental health problems, but the officer was on another call.

Police did not use a stun gun, but did use chemical spray in addition to the batons. Janke did not know how many of the officers hit Jones.

Police estimate that Jones, who was 5 foot 6 inches tall, weighed 400 pounds. They did not release a current address for Jones.

According to court records, Jones pleaded guilty in 1998 to possessing cocaine and was given three years probation, which included inpatient treatment at Talbert House. A month after his sentencing, Jones violated his probation and was sentenced to a year in jail, records show.

---

SteelTown Boy

01 Dec 2003, 05:54 PM

i'm surprised that the cocaine didn't kill him entirely,that stuff will fook up a heart-just ask Len Bias.

yoshomon

01 Dec 2003, 06:44 PM

I think the title of this thread is bullshit.

Phreon

01 Dec 2003, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by yoshomon
I think the title of this thread is bullshit.

I agree.

And I'm impressed that all I've heard so far are holding their judgements until the facts are in.

Phreon

Duemellon

01 Dec 2003, 09:09 PM

And I'm impressed that all I've heard so far are holding their judgements until the facts are in. it depends on what you're expecting us to judge. I threw out some judgements already.according to the enquirer article (of which Due only posted portions), the first two officers to respond radiod a request for an officer with a stun gun, but i am not sure if one ever showed up. they did use pepper spray. "Again, Leon can't do everything"

Really tho', I didn't exactly take snippets and leave you to guess where I got it from, or made it difficult for you to read. It's called "bringing focus to points". Go ahead, read the entire article, that's what I wanted you to do. You can even see my attempt to use elipses (...) to denote when I skipped spots.*

anyway... as I said...

Someone in a rage doesn't give a damn about pain (pepper spray), so you gotta stop them through the proper force. They weren't using the proper technique, so they used the improper techinique excessively

* if you weren't trying to insinuate that I was "hiding the truth", then I apologize. If you were suggesting that I was attempting to railroad readers by limiting what they read, you're overlooking the clear efforts I made to make sure they got ALL of the article in question

Phreon

01 Dec 2003, 10:38 PM

It took SIX cops to take this guy down. SIX!

I'm not saying one way or the other about weather they used excessive force, but imagine how hard it is to judge "proper" force when you're wrestling with a 400 lb. madman.

Attacking a police officer is asking for trouble. You will not win.

Phreon

IPrayForSound

01 Dec 2003, 10:52 PM

Well, they're showing the whole video right now, and it looked to me like a coupla cops trying to take down a guy who wasn't going down. Too much force? I dunno, 'cause I haven't been trained in the right amount to use. But the video does show that when the cop with the spray showed up, the beating pretty much stopped instantly. After that, it was 3, then 4, then 5, then 6 cops holding him down with sticks while they tried to get enough cuffs together to connect his wrists, followed by an EMS squad from the FD trying to help the guy. I'm not sure what my opinion is. Hmmm...

Bronzetree

01 Dec 2003, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by Duemellon
Someone in a rage doesn't give a damn about pain (pepper spray), so you gotta stop them through the proper force. They weren't using the proper technique, so they used the improper techinique excessively

1) Pepper spray was used and deemed ineffective. 2) The guy got hold of an officer's baton, a weapon that could be used against them, after he'd already clotheslined one cop and showed that he was more than willing to duke it out with them. 3) An officer with a stun gun, as well as one specializing in dealing with mental disabilities, were both called for and neither could make it to the scene quickly enough.

Given all of these variables and considering your apparent expertise, please inform me as to the proper technique and amount of force necessary as outlined by the Cincinnati Police Department and considered acceptable.

I'd typed up a response to this situation earlier, long before any other responses to this thread appeared, but lost it because of my shitty computer and didn't feel like retyping. So my opinion of the situation is and has not been at all influenced by anything said here. I'll retype at least part of my intial response after I hear about the proper technique and amount of force, because my original post actually posed the same question, but was very specific.

Smoker29

02 Dec 2003, 12:52 AM

I spoke with a member of the APD (Airport Police Dept) today. He knew more about the case than I did and told me that the guy reached for one of the cop’s guns. I don't know about Ohio, but in the state of Kentucky, use of deadly force is allowed if they go for your gun. (And they didn’t use it)

People are so quick to denounce those who protect us. Sure, cops can be pricks, but so can we. So what?

The cops did their job.

I saw CNN air the clip over and over today at the airport.

What are they trying to do? All they’re doing is instigating more unnecessary racial turmoil. Will they be held responsible for the beatings or murders if a riot ensues? You know the answer….

alternachild

02 Dec 2003, 01:17 AM

I think the media can be blamed for most of the reason we have such "racial tension" in the first place.

Orestes

02 Dec 2003, 06:59 AM

[i]if you weren't trying to insinuate that I was "hiding the truth", then I apologize. If you were suggesting that I was attempting to railroad readers by limiting what they read, you're overlooking the clear efforts I made to make sure they got ALL of the article in question[/B]

I absolutely was not trying to insinuate that you were hiding the truth, but I love the fact that you automatically assume I was. Really, that's pretty shitty, and, I think, that says a lot about you.

I was pointing out the fact that you did not post the entire article, because obviously, people didn't realize that, didn't have all of their questions answered by what you posted, or didn't bother to click the link you provided. If you were trying to "railroad readers" you wouldn't have posted the link, would you?

Since some people had clearly missed some information from your post, I was trying to make it easier for them to realize that the whole thing was not posted, so here it is for you.

Try to help people out and Due jumps on your shit. I love it. :rolleyes:

Duemellon

02 Dec 2003, 07:15 AM

I absolutely was not trying to insinuate that you were hiding the truth, but I love the fact that you automatically assume I was. Really, that's pretty shitty, and, I think, that says a lot about you. hey, let's escalate some more why don't we?!?

I mean, reading the rest of your post sounds more like you originally meant to imply it than the one before it. But u'kno what? U'r just escalating it. Damnit man, just say "I meant #1" and let it die. G'damnit, now you have to prove some friggin' point. Petty.I'm not saying one way or the other about weather they used excessive force, but imagine how hard it is to judge "proper" force when you're wrestling with a 400 lb. madman. again, if proper force was used, they would not have had to use improper force excessively.

- stun gun
- non-cosmetic blows
- unecessary blows when the individual was down

etc. etc.

the guy was "large and in charge" and crazed, why were they just beating him with their nightsticks?

I mean, when you go and fight a tiger, you don't bring a club.

Why didn't they have non-lethal force available? why didn't they have the basic training on how to deal with mentally unstable people?

It goes back to training, and lack thereof. I'm not disputing their lives were in danger, but I'm disputing their reaction to it was improper. The next part to be shown is that they were, in fact, following CPD procedure, WHICH ILLUSTRATES THE PROBLEM!

Our cops are routinely untrained in many situations, unable to fall back on proper reactions b/c... well, they're taught improper reactions.

IPrayForSound

02 Dec 2003, 08:16 AM

Dear Orestes,

Originally posted by Duemellon
if you weren't trying to insinuate that I was "hiding the truth", then I apologize.

Sincerely,
IPFS

Bronzetree

02 Dec 2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by Duemellon
G'damnit, now you have to prove some friggin' point. Petty.

I could swear I've seen someone else do this, but I can't for the life of me think of where.

again, if proper force was used, they would not have had to use improper force excessively.

- stun gun
- non-cosmetic blows
- unecessary blows when the individual was down

etc. etc.

the guy was "large and in charge" and crazed, why were they just beating him with their nightsticks?

I mean, when you go and fight a tiger, you don't bring a club.

Why didn't they have non-lethal force available? why didn't they have the basic training on how to deal with mentally unstable people?

It goes back to training, and lack thereof. I'm not disputing their lives were in danger, but I'm disputing their reaction to it was improper. The next part to be shown is that they were, in fact, following CPD procedure, WHICH ILLUSTRATES THE PROBLEM!

Our cops are routinely untrained in many situations, unable to fall back on proper reactions b/c... well, they're taught improper reactions.

See, man, now you're just redefining "proper" force. the CPD has deemed what was done proper. I'll go ahead and retype part of my initial response now.

My question was what is the protocol for this type of situation? Especially as it concerns a 400 pound man, who is quite a bit meatier than the average perp. Meaning, what it might take to bring down a 180 pound perp isn't necessarily gonna work on a man more than twice his size, so are the police given leeway to use more excessive force? Example: the one cop was jabbing with the nightstick more than slapping. I'd go as far as to say bludgeoning. I'm not up on procedure, but I have to assume this technique is used to take the wind out of the perp. Is the jabbing technique used more on a larger man because he's got more cushion or is this standard for a perp of any size?

It's been said that the things you call for in your previous post WERE called for on the scene, they just weren't immediately available or didn't make it there in time. Your solution is that each cop is trained to handle mentally unstable perps and that things such as stun guns and other non-lethal weapons be readily available. First, the nightstick and pepper spray were used ineffectively. I have to assume stun guns, tasers, rubber bullets and the like aren't available to every single cop immediately. There's simply probably not room enough in the trunk for everything you're asking for. Or maybe it's a question of cost, because I'm sure all this stuff isn't cheap. Second, I'd guess all cops have at least a minor amount of training with mentally unstable perps, but again, money and time are probably factors in being able to train every single cop in this manner.

I feel your frustrations with the police force in asking what you're asking for, but with past posts as well as the one above, I think you're asking for machines. People who are never struck with fear or doubt, people who don't make mistakes, people who have every possible resource available to them to handle every situation in a reasonable and logical manner. Well, not every situation is reasonable or logical, and seeing as non-cops are continually taking shots at cops, sometimes for no apparent reason, these guys are most likely on edge these days and prone to fits of random humanity. It happens. But in this case, procedure was followed and the guy died, most likely NOT as a result of anything the cops did. Looks like they were actually doing what they're supposed to and are still villified.

Who the hell would want to be a cop these days? Oh yeah, that's right, my cousin just completed police academy training (Orestes, this would be Mark). The family is proud of him, but some of us secretly worry. Maybe I should ask him about procedure and training and such.

Stine

02 Dec 2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Bronzetree

Given all of these variables and considering your apparent expertise, please inform me as to the proper technique and amount of force necessary as outlined by the Cincinnati Police Department and considered acceptable.

I'm with BT. I haven't heard yet that they were using "improper" force.

monkey neck

02 Dec 2003, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by alternachild
I think the media can be blamed for most of the reason we have such "racial tension" in the first place.

That was the reason for the title of the thread. Sorry if it was in bad taste. I'm just tired of how the media will overhype everything almost as if they're just foaming at the mouth just waiting for a riot to erupt.

monkey neck

02 Dec 2003, 09:01 AM

By the way, if they used excessive force, they would have shot him. Did you notice they didn't beat him in the head with the sticks? They followed procedure and they did a good job. I would have shot him. But that's why I'm not a cop.

Golden RV

02 Dec 2003, 09:31 AM

They did exactly what they were supposed to do.....PERIOD!!!!

The maniac came at them and they took him down the best they could.....it was nothing like the Rodney King beating and they stopped once they had backup come in. The dude had PCP (angel dust) and cocaine in his system.......I can tell you what, you weren't going to stop his ass any other way. He didn't die from the blows the cops gave him, hell he probably didn't even feel the shit seeing as how he was all chalked up and had 20 layers of fat cushioning those blows.

And like Monkey Neck said, if it would have been excessive force they would have shot his ass or beat him in the head with the nightstick, which they did not.........so with that, let's quit making excuses for the dude. I don't like to see anyone die but you don't go rushing after a cop and if you do, expect to get your ass beat until you calm down. I don't care if the guy was black, white, hispanic or Cambodian for that matter, he would have gotten the same beating no matter what his race was.

peedub

02 Dec 2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Golden RV
They did exactly what they were supposed to do.....PERIOD!!!!

The maniac came at them and they took him down the best they could.....it was nothing like the Rodney King beating and they stopped once they had backup come in. The dude had PCP (angel dust) and cocaine in his system.......I can tell you what, you weren't going to stop his ass any other way. He didn't die from the blows the cops gave him, hell he probably didn't even feel the shit seeing as how he was all chalked up and had 20 layers of fat cushioning those blows.

And like Monkey Neck said, if it would have been excessive force they would have shot his ass or beat him in the head with the nightstick, which they did not.........so with that, let's quit making excuses for the dude. I don't like to see anyone die but you don't go rushing after a cop and if you do, expect to get your ass beat until you calm down. I don't care if the guy was black, white, hispanic or Cambodian for that matter, he would have gotten the same beating no matter what his race was.

amen...

yoshomon

02 Dec 2003, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by alternachild
I think the media can be blamed for most of the reason we have such "racial tension" in the first place.

The media has made it worse, but it's not the "main reason".

And sorry to repeat myself, but this thread's title is still bullshit.

Stine

02 Dec 2003, 10:29 AM

"White boy - redneck."

BigSugar

02 Dec 2003, 11:19 AM

First, let's clear one thing. Police video units are keyed to the emergency lights/sirens. When the lights are activated, the video goes active and records. it can also be turned on manually/remotely, which apparently was done when the officer realized after the first minute that it wasn't recording.

you hear the officer talking to another cop while the EMS is working on the guy after it's over and he says something to the effect of "yeah, it's recording, but i turned my lights off when i got to the scene". when the lights are deactivated, the video goes off and has to be turned on via a remote that the officer carries.

since it's quite clear that this wasn't a "sinister" plot with the "missing" minute of video, we move on.....

The use of force training and guidelines in this case were followed to a T. No excessive baton hits were used. The "jabbing" method used by the officer who wasn't being wrestled to the ground and choked by this guy is designed to hit trigger points that cause pain, but not injury. kinda like a more violent form of accupressure. you'll notice in the video that when they actually swing the batons and hit his back or legs or arms, they aren't using full force. the batons are held loosely and are allowed to bounce off reletively easily. Not once did they go for the vital head/heart, per proper police protocol. They weren't trying to hurt the guy, just subdue him and make him realize his behavior wasn't proper. They were effecting a felony arrest once he decided to try and beat down the officer, and i didn't see any abuse of force.

so due, your insinuation that it was improper force used excessively is 100% incorrect. it was directly according to the police guidelines approved by the courts, the justice department and the BUF/CFJC in the various lawsuits.

PCP and cocaine. bad mixture for a 400 pound guy with hypertension. add in the stress of trying to beat down a bunch of cops, and the heart is bound to pop. that's exactly what happened here. i'm just glad we've got video of most of it so that there is no question the police acted properly.

oh, and to the NAACP guy who did the news conference....go fuck yourself you race baiting fuck. and to the Right Reverend Jesse "gimme some money and i'll go away" Jackson....you too can go fuck yourself you money grubbing, don't care about anyone but myself, wanna get my hand in the honeypot pig.

monkey neck

02 Dec 2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by yoshomon
And sorry to repeat myself, but this thread's title is still bullshit.

*crying* Look, I said I'm sorry, all right.:rolleyes:

Stine

02 Dec 2003, 11:35 AM

It was interesting to see Matt Lauer play Devil's Advocate this morning - asking NAACP feller if he isn't being influenced by past incidents and Matt also pointed out how the officers *repeatedly* told the man to put his hands behind his head. NAACP man didn't have a solid response to that.

yoyo

02 Dec 2003, 12:55 PM

I say let the toxicology reports come in and then we will have a majority of the answers.

The cops were just doing their job.

We (atleast, I think) don't know how to do their jobs. We are merely arm chair analysts interpreting the video and making our own judgements. Whether correct or not.

BigSugar

02 Dec 2003, 01:02 PM

Dammit Frost, if i can't count on you for a decent conspiracy theory, then who can i count on!?? geez!!!!!

ok, maybe i jumped a little, but i sensed it was coming. :)

no statements will be released for a few days i'm sure, and witnesses will continue to be interviewed. you see in the initial tape (before the lights/video were shut off) that the dude was standing in front of a car as the officer pulled up....he was facing away from the cruiser and making some sort of motions or gestures. my guess is that the pcp/cocaine, combined with his health problems had him totally disoriented. as for what happened in that minute or so, we'll have to wait for the witnesses statements i suppose. but when the video comes on, neither officer is making violent moves, and neither have their batons out yet, until big man started swinging.

donetrawk

02 Dec 2003, 01:14 PM

I'm thinking that this is the kind of national publicity that your town certainly does not need.

classicgrrl

02 Dec 2003, 01:42 PM

I think the bigger problem picture is the fact that we dont have anywhere in our society for mentally ill folks to be other than at White Castles hopped up on cocaine.

And well hell, the dude was black, male, and probably poor so really the police killing him was probably a mercy considering all the money that would've been wasted trying to treat his supposed diabetic problem which was his fault to begin with consdering his obesity, poverty, and apparant drug problem.

But oh, I'm off topic, the real issue is whether the police used the right kind of force in the right manner. The other issues are mute points.

I always think about the wrong things...silly me.

classicgrrl

02 Dec 2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by monkey neck

*crying* Look, I said I'm sorry, all right.:rolleyes:

hey monkey neck, dont worry about the righteous boarders who never get misinterrpreted nor ever, ever make a mistake.

we cant all be perfect.

foolsgold

02 Dec 2003, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by classicgrrl
we cant all be perfect.

*ahem*

Yeah-huh, I am. My mom tells me so all the time.

So there. :p thhhhhpppppt

c-lando

02 Dec 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by classicgrrl
And well hell, the dude was black, male, and probably poor so really the police killing him was probably a mercy considering all the money that would've been wasted trying to treat his supposed diabetic problem which was his fault to begin with consdering his obesity, poverty, and apparant drug problem.*speechless*

yvette7ica

02 Dec 2003, 02:10 PM

foolsgold

02 Dec 2003, 02:12 PM

(pssssst...I think C-girl is being sarcastic...)

*or at least I hope she is...gulp*

That said, I saw on the morning news that Cunningham was on that Hannity & Colms show last night. I was surprised to discover that actually seeing his weasely, no eyed face speak is worse than just hearing his awful and grating delivery.

classicgrrl

02 Dec 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by foolsgold
(pssssst...I think C-girl is being sarcastic...)

well dammit. if I had known that everything I was saying was being taken literally I would've been having alot more fun...

A suggested reading:
Jonathon Swifts' A Modest Proposal

yvette7ica

02 Dec 2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by foolsgold
(pssssst...I think C-girl is being sarcastic...)

*or at least I hope she is...gulp*

That said, I saw on the morning news that Cunningham was on that Hannity & Colms show last night. I was surprised to discover that actually seeing his weasely, no eyed face speak is worse than just hearing his awful and grating delivery.

I saw the show last night. (Hence, the comment.) I never knew how uneducated and stupid Cunningham was until last night. The man's pathways from his brain to his mouth don't seem to transmit properly. I was embarrassed for him. Way too go, Bill!! Thanks for helping to propel the image of Cincinnati being a bunch of racist, conservative, yokels.

classicgrrl

02 Dec 2003, 03:36 PM

Who's Bill Cunningham? Doesnt he have a radio show or something?

yvette7ica

02 Dec 2003, 03:54 PM

Yeah, he's got a show on 700 WLW out of Cincinnati. He's kind of like a grade B (or C or D) Bill O'Reilly. (Even though I think he's been around longer than O'Reilly). He's loud, far right-wing, and never wrong.

Smoker29

02 Dec 2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by yvette7ica
Yeah, he's got a show on 700 WLW out of Cincinnati. He's kind of like a grade B (or C or D) Bill O'Reilly. (Even though I think he's been around longer than O'Reilly). He's loud, far right-wing, and never wrong.

Your sarcasm isn't being noted lately C-girl. If I were you I'd give it up.

butter_of_69

02 Dec 2003, 04:22 PM

Tomorrow. I'm having my nails done tonight.

foolsgold

02 Dec 2003, 04:42 PM

Bill Cunningham is a horrible radio announcer not even taking into account his politics. To get an idea of his delivery, shout this next statement out loud, pausing a second or two when you reach a "...":

I'm Bill Cunningham...and I...was on...the television...last night...and...am...representative of all...this great city...of ours...buy McKinley Mortgage...I'm an asshole.

Image a louder, more nasal Wildman Walker and you are in the area.

God, that man is like nails on a chalkboard.

classicgrrl

02 Dec 2003, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Smoker29
Your sarcasm isn't being noted lately C-girl. If I were you I'd give it up.

according to Swift however, that is the best time to be sarcastic...:p

doctort13

02 Dec 2003, 05:30 PM

I am glad that I do not listen/watch/read "the news".

I like living in a daydream, it smells better.

lawdog

02 Dec 2003, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by foolsgold
I'm Bill Cunningham...and I...was on...the television...last night...and...am...representative of all...this great city...of ours...buy McKinley Mortgage...I'm an asshole.

Oh, that's who he is. Thanks. I seriously think that WLW commercial is sponsored by the competitors of McKinley Mortgage.

classicgrrl

02 Dec 2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by doctort13
I am glad that I do not listen/watch/read "the news".

I like living in a daydream, it smells better.

you and me both.

Duemellon

02 Dec 2003, 06:00 PM

And well hell, the dude was black, male, and probably poor so really the police killing him was probably a mercy considering all the money that would've been wasted trying to treat his supposed diabetic problem which was his fault to begin with consdering his obesity, poverty, and apparant drug problem. that was, by far, the most sarcastically true statement. I simultaneously dispised you and laughed. You're amazing.See, man, now you're just redefining "proper" force. the CPD has deemed what was done proper. I'll go ahead and retype part of my initial response now. again, I go back to saying they were trained how to do it, but the TRAINING sucks. Of course they followed CPD procedure, heck Roach did, that guy who killed Owensby did, and so did those who surrounded and fired on that mental-guy who had a brick.

They all followed procedure. Why isn't anyone but me questioning these procedures? God, you guys are accepting this as proper. That breaks my heart.

As for "waiting for the guy with the stun gun &/r the guy trained in mental cases" yeah, that's procedure again. Ever wonder why they only had 1 available? or that stun guns were so unavailable? Oh, procedure again. God, you guys don't understand that those cops had to rely on techniques which were not proper for the situation because they were underequipped (mentally & physically) to deal with the situation.

Really ppl, am I blaming these cops as being the worst? No, for the one-ba-zillionth time, I'm blaming the CPD for making bad cops out of well intentioned suckers.these guys are most likely on edge these days and prone to fits of random humanity but it's the rule, and not the exception, and that is what is at issue. It'd be different if this was an isolated case, but it's not.By the way, if they used excessive force, they would have shot him. Did you notice they didn't beat him in the head with the sticks? yeah, b/c Owensby was shot & beat in the head. And Rodney King was shot too. Excessive force isn't necessarily head-bludgening or lead poisoning. It is exactly that "excessive".And like Monkey Neck said, if it would have been excessive force they would have shot his ass or beat him in the head with the nightstick, which they did not.........so with that, let's quit making excuses for the dude. ok, I'm asking, who here is making "excuses for the dude"? someone speak up? Anyone? anyone? ... Beuller? ... Beuller?I agree with Peedub and GRV - the cops did their job to the best of their abilities given the situation - and color/race/creed does NOT come into it one little damned bit amazing how you're agreeing with PW and GRV but not the rest of us who also say "race is not important in this case". Tunnelvision dude, no one's talking about race in this thread, or at least debating it's relevence, so I do believe you agree with everyone.btw, the mental image of Duemellon being beaten up by a 400lb crazy is not supposed to make anyone smile. k? k ah, like a glass of pure air: tasteless. Thanks Cock for keeping that good ol' "hate" going.if you weren't trying to insinuate that I was "hiding the truth", then I apologize. no apology from you needed. Thanks for playing Orestes.

In other news:
BT made 2 posts in this thread. He just can't stay away. I win.

I'm glad to see no one is upset b/c the police were being investigated and questioned about the incident for improper procedure &/r killing the guy. There were several knuckleheads saying the cops were being grossly mistreated, and all i can think of is what do they expect? Did they expect these cops to be in this scuffle, make a police report, and work the rest of their beat that night as if it didn't happen? Someone died in their presence, somoeone FUCKIN DIED, they at LEAST need counselling, but b/c there was a death of someone who appeared clearly alive, they need to be investigated for wrongdoing.Or maybe it's a question of cost, because I'm sure all this stuff isn't cheap. Second, I'd guess all cops have at least a minor amount of training with mentally unstable perps, but again, money and time are probably factors in being able to train every single cop in this manner. cost & time. Yep. Again, I was initially upset with Roach, as an individual, but it didn't take too long to see the bigger picture and realize there were lots of Roaches running around. Blame it on the queen, and the nest. Undertrained, underequipped, undermanned, underpaid, and unresponsible to the city's leaders.

davepurcell

02 Dec 2003, 06:06 PM

Originally posted by BigSugar oh, and to the NAACP guy who did the news conference....go fuck yourself you race baiting fuck.

Do tell -- how exactly is Calvert Smith a "race-baiting fuck?"

Here's Smith's main point, in his own words:

"If proper police procedure means that you can use that kind of force to clobber people who are clearly disarmed, there is something wrong."

I have a real hard time seeing how anyone, right or left, could disagree with that.

Stop by Concord Cleaners on the way home, Sug -- your hood's ready.

dp

Smoker29

02 Dec 2003, 06:25 PM

Wrong.

When a person attacks a Police officer, they are considered armed. People seem to forget that an officer is wearing a side arm.

If you were in a fistfight and you had a gun on your hip, wouldn't you be worried?

It comes down to a life or death situation if you're rolling around on the ground with a guy who may or may not go for your gun.

Especially if the person is 350 lbs and on Angel Dust…

I broke up a fight one night and one of the guys was all drugged up on something. It took two of my arms to hold one of his arms down and this guy was a skinny little fucker. Certain drugs make you crazy man. Crazy strong too...

Also...can't you tell that these guys are not hitting him with full force? No skull shots...

I would think that anybody left or right would see clearly that this is an open and shut case. The Police were doing there job.

doctort13

02 Dec 2003, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Smoker29
The Police were doing there job.

Bob is right. Why do people feel the need to go on and on about this?

Wait...the liberals were right. Let's tell the police that they should all find jobs elsewhere (how about retail?). Then we can let ALL the "knuckleheads" do whatever they want, wherever they want, and to whomever they want.

Tell all the "knuckleheads":
-They can now piss and shit in front of your business/home.
-Break into your house and steal your DVD player.
-Get really drunk (or high) and run into your car, hurting you and your wife.
-What the heck, they can even rape/shoot/knife/beat whomever they feel like.

I am sure the world would be a safer & happier place if the POLice would just stop doing their job.

Have a nice day.

Duemellon

02 Dec 2003, 08:06 PM

Mike Brown was doing his job too, but he was doing it poorly.

Why is he getting the credit since he mae the announcement, last year, that Katie Blackburn (his daughter) was taking over the team?

I mean, just because someone was "doing their job" doesn't mean they were doing it RIGHT, or can't do it better.

davepurcell

02 Dec 2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Smoker29 I would think that anybody left or right would see clearly that this is an open and shut case. The Police were doing there job.

I'll ask the same question Dave Davis asked over on CincyMusic: is it unreasonable to ask the police force to have a better way to handle large, mentally unstable people than to beat the fuck out of them with sticks?

Nurses and orderlies handle large, drugged-up, unstable people in mental hospitals and ERs all the time, and while I'm no expert, I suspect they have methods other than beating the fuck out of them with sticks.

But no one wants to talk about policy, because it's apparently more fun to argue about blacks who deserve to die because they made a mistake vs. lookit what racist pig cops we have.

dp

Duemellon

02 Dec 2003, 08:49 PM

I'll ask the same question Dave Davis asked over on CincyMusic: is it unreasonable to ask the police force to have a better way to handle large, mentally unstable people than to beat the fuck out of them with sticks?
vs.again, I go back to saying they were trained how to do it, but the TRAINING sucks. Of course they followed CPD procedure, heck Roach did, that guy who killed Owensby did, and so did those who surrounded and fired on that mental-guy who had a brick.

They all followed procedure. Why isn't anyone but me questioning these procedures? God, you guys are accepting this as proper. That breaks my heart. sounds like YOU think you're alone and I thought I was alone. I guess we weren't.

They followed procedure, which is the saddest part. The procedure sucks, but no one is reviewing that are they?

JohnnyRoyale

02 Dec 2003, 09:22 PM

I'm tired and don't feel like reading thru 4 pages of responses (I made it thru about 1.5).

This shit happened right by my house so I'm hoping some ignorant assholes don't begin to riot as an excuse to show the world that they are stronger than the "man" and can rebel. I don't want my stuff (or me) messed up over all this.

I'll be the first in line to admit I hate racists, but had the guy been 4oolbs and white, do you really think this would be escalated as much as it's getting? It's a shame that the guy died, but, in my eyes, you get what you deserve when you attack an officer. And Due, as far as proper force, a friend of mine is a 5' female about to join the force and you can bet your ass she'll use whatever means are necessary to take a person down if she is in danger from the individual. They probably didn't hit him in his chest and head because they didn't want to kill the guy, which is why he was hit in the legs and arms and legs. I bet that hurt.

Prediction: The cops are let go (as they should be) and a mild riot will take place. It's too cold out to get the same effects from the warm-weather "riots" that spring.

JR

Bronzetree

02 Dec 2003, 10:46 PM

Edited to say nevermind. I'll post more later.

dcXhc

02 Dec 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
anyway... what happened with the missing 96 seconds??

It's probably just a coincidence that Rose Mary Woods currently lives in Ohio.

Bronzetree

02 Dec 2003, 11:14 PM

The missing 97 seconds showed nothing so far. "More analysis to come." Anybody ever notice how the word anal is part of analysis? I'm not implying anything here, it just struck me for the first time as I was typing the word. Weird.

Anyway, I really have not much more to say on the issue. I've said my piece. Procedure was followed. Some are questioning those procedures. I don't have a simple answer, because well, I just don't. Sure, the procedures could be changed, but would they be as effective (as DP mentions) as what nurses are trained to do in hospitals? These are two completely different situations, so I don't really know.

What I do know is that cops are trained to react with force when attacked. How beating the shit out of someone who's attacking you is wrong, I can't say. This is why I'm not a cop. I don't want that responsibility. I have the utmost respect for those that choose to accept it, though. Shame there are a few dickhead cops that give the profession a bad name.

Smoker29

02 Dec 2003, 11:20 PM

paranoidandroid

03 Dec 2003, 12:02 AM

That said, I saw on the morning news that Cunningham was on that Hannity & Colms show last night. I was surprised to discover that actually seeing his weasely, no eyed face speak is worse than just hearing his awful and grating delivery. [/B]

I used to work at 700WLW...even ran the audio board for Willie Cunningham's show afew times. By his estimate, over 70% of his big ratings.....and he does get big ratings...are from listeners who hate him and his views. Call it the Howard Stern factor. The same people that bad mouth him are most likely the same ones tuning in everday.

As for the riot factor? If you call 13 year olds walking around trying to break windows and overturning hot dog vendors...then Cincinnati is in for a long winter...oh wait a minute...no mob in their right mind would riot in the winter....let's just go and drink a forty and this thing will blow by.

As for the Police factor? They're all from Elder aren't there? So we know they can't be that smart. Give me ten Hail Mary's and all will be forgiven.

Duemellon

03 Dec 2003, 06:41 AM

As far as the Nurses in mental hospitals, I don't think they're dealing with people on PCP. there's a wide range of hospitals and patients. Your generalization doesn't do it justice. Furthermore, cocaine & PCP doesn't increase the muscle density of it's users when in a rage, it has the same effect as any psychotic episode, chemical, natural, or otherwise induced.Alternate methods? Well...these guys were caught a bit off guard, but if you have time to think of alternate methods while a 350 pound PCP freak is attacking you, feel free to use them. and we go back to it...

People are trained to do this job. We give them too much leeway too often to react the way we would've reacted. They aren't us. They aren't simply BT, BS, Due, and CGrrl, walking around with a gun, they are trained to face these intense and hectic situations. If we want to hold them to our standards of behavior, then we're in serious trouble.

Oh wait, we are holding them to those standards.

It takes a special person with special training to do this job. Train them right, and that "what do we do now" question goes away, replaced by the correct reaction.

It begins in training kiddies. In training.

4 posts and counting, from BT.

davepurcell

03 Dec 2003, 06:43 AM

Originally posted by Smoker29 Alternate methods? Well...these guys were caught a bit off guard, but if you have time to think of alternate methods while a 350 pound PCP freak is attacking you, feel free to use them.

Bob, that would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Caught off guard? They're fucking police -- they're supposed to be trained to handle ANY situation.

If you don't think any reasonable alternate methods are available, methods that could be used even if cops are "caught off guard," then why doesn't any other major metropolitan area in the U.S. have a problem with police beating mentally unstable black men to death? Why aren't mentally unstable people on PCP who show up to emergency rooms -- and it happens -- beaten to death?

Blaming it on the media is just idiotic. It's a huge story because it SHOULD be a huge story. There's a problem with the Cinti police force that needs to be fixed.

Love your level of compassion. I've seen so many people be arrogant about people getting "what they deserve" until something bad happens to them...

dp

Smoker29

03 Dec 2003, 08:42 AM

Pathetic...idiotic? Thanks for resorting to name-calling. That is exactly the way I feel about your posts most of the time. So same to ya buddy...

You obviously have your opinion and I've got mine. I agreed with you that maybe there could be some alternate training, but you just overlooked it.

As far as my level of compassion, screw you. My heart sinks when I hear him yelling Moma! It's a very unfortunate situation. It's sad that his life deteriorated to lying around on fast food floors all drugged up. But just because I feel sorry for him and his family doesn't mean I'm going to find somebody else to blame.

You are obviously on another planet because I can't and won't understand how the police are at fault on this one.

yoyo

03 Dec 2003, 08:50 AM

I heard that today the reports are being released.

Let the proof be in the pudding.

foolsgold

03 Dec 2003, 09:17 AM

Just out of curiosity, for everyone who says that the procedure should be changed or is too extreme, what do you suggest as an alternative, effective and realistic way to subdue a criminal who is attacking you or presenting a hazardous situation to those around him/her?

monkey neck

03 Dec 2003, 09:24 AM

They should have calmed him down with loving, comforting words.

davepurcell

03 Dec 2003, 09:36 AM

Bob, I'm not calling *you* idiotic or pathetic, but I think those particular arguments are. I'm quite sure I have plenty of opinions others find pathetic or idiotic (chime in here, Sug), but I don't take it personally.

As for compassion, saying this -- "It's a very unfortunate situation. It's sad that his life deteriorated to lying around on fast food floors all drugged up. But just because I feel sorry for him and his family doesn't mean I'm going to find somebody else to blame"

...is a far cry from saying this "it's unfortunate that he died, but I believe the fault lies with him."

The guy fucked up, so it's his fault he's dead? Sorry, that's cold. Put him in jail, yes. Get him treatment for his problem, yes. But hold him down and beat him until he dies? No way, not when better methods should be available (and Christian, I'd be happy to look up what those alternative methods are, but I've already wasted too much time on this...I have to believe that other methods are available, otherwise why doesn't this happen in any other major city, especially ones with racial tensions just as bad as they are here?).

And sorry, blaming it on the media is, yeah, senseless and idiotic. I'm as big of a critic as anyone and media criticism will likely be a part of my dissertation, but in this case, they've gone out of their way, IMO, to not be inflammatory (and least on Channel 9 and in the Post and Enquirer). I've not seen anyone in the media express an opinion and they've gone out of their way to say, essentially, "we can't come to judgement until all the evidence is in."

Yes, you and I are on different planets, because I don't believe a guy's mistake -- especially an unarmed guy -- should result in his death. The fact that I know people who don't care otherwise is unsettling and if that means I'm on a different planet from you, I'm glad to be there.

You and I both know people who've fucked up on drugs and done stupid shit (there's one guy in particular, but I'm not going to use his name -- think long-haired bassist). But they managed to straighten up and I'm glad they're alive. This guy never got the chance. Good thing for my pals they're not poor and black.

dp

IPrayForSound

03 Dec 2003, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by davepurcell
If you don't think any reasonable alternate methods are available, methods that could be used even if cops are "caught off guard," then why doesn't any other major metropolitan area in the U.S. have a problem with police beating mentally unstable black men to death? Why aren't mentally unstable people on PCP who show up to emergency rooms -- and it happens -- beaten to death?Not taking any sides here, just trying to keep people objective....DP, I'm assuming you agree with MoveOn's stance that Cunningham shouldn't be telling people that he "died from being fat" because he doesn't have all of the facts. Well, if Billy C. shouldn't blame the death on victim, you shouldn't call the cops murderers until you know how Nathaniel died.

davepurcell

03 Dec 2003, 10:09 AM

IPray, I agree with MoveOn's stance, which is that Cunningham "deceived viewers about the facts of the case, repeatedly claiming Jones had died due to his obesity though the coroner's report has not been released." They also state that "Fox News treated Bill Cunningham as a reasonable local expert instead of a race-baiting ideologue. Then they let him get away with making outrageous claims without any evidence."

(As a related note, I'd like to think we can all agree that Bill Cunningham doesn't represent the views of Cincinnati, and that he's far from an expert on anything.)

I'm not calling the cops murderers (yet), though you're right, I shouldn't have said "kill him." Do I think they're at fault? Yes and no. If the individual cops followed department procedures -- and most seem to think they did -- then they're not at fault, they're doing what they were trained to do. The larger issue is police department policy, which apparently doesn't have an appropriate method for dealing with mentally unstable individuals.

Believe it or not, I'm not anti-cop, though I do believe there's a serious racial problem among the police force. Hell, I've had enough run-ins over the years for just looking like a hippie. When I had hair down to my ass, weighed an emaciated 120 lbs and drove a 74 VW van, I got pulled over all the time. I'm not exaggerating. Cops see a skinny kid who looks like he's on heroin driving a VW bus at 3am and they assume something must be up. One cop actually checked my backpack when I explained that I'd just left the 10th floor of Crosley Tower and the reason I looked like hell is that it was exam week and I hadn't slept in 24 hours.

When I was in high school, I used to get pulled over in Ft. Thomas all the time, mainly because it was obvious I wasn't from there (I was from Newport and drove a beat-up Chevy Nova). One cop made me go thru the DUI tests because I was drenched in sweat and he didn't believe that anyone was out playing basketball at 2am, even though I was in shorts and a tee-shirt and had my fucking basketball on the seat next to me!

A friend of a good friend of mine is a district attorney in New York. Duane was driving back to NYC from Columbus and got pulled over by a state trooper because if you're a black man driving a Benz after midnight, you must be a dealer. The cop admitted he wasn't speeding, but started pulling this "boy, you'd better keep your mouth shut" crap. Duane pulled out his DA badge and the guy started backing down and saying, "it's just a little misunderstanding." When Duane got home, he tracked the guy down and had him reprimanded.

And I could tell you story after story of how my black friends in Chicago were harrassed repeatedly by the cops for doing nothing.

This board is 99% (maybe 100%) white and so people seem to find it shocking that the police might actually do something because of the color of a man's skin. But it happens every single day.

dp

Bronzetree

03 Dec 2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Duemellon
4 posts and counting, from BT.

Dude, seriously, let it go. You've won nothing other than some fantasy game you've cooked up in your head.

And you can't figure out why people don't like you.

Bronzetree

03 Dec 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by davepurcell
The guy fucked up, so it's his fault he's dead? Sorry, that's cold. Put him in jail, yes. Get him treatment for his problem, yes. But hold him down and beat him until he dies?

Whoa, whoa, whoa. No one held this cat down and beat him til he died. At least we don't know that yet. It would seem the combo of drugs and exertion over the confrontation is what did him in, but we'll know soon enough. If the coroner says the beating is what did it, I'll be right there crying foul with you, but you're doing the same thing you're coming down on others for doing: jumping to conclusions.

Typically, yes, I'm of the mind that if you don't comply and start taking swings at cops, you have no one to blame but yourself for what results. He was unarmed, yes, but it's possible to kill someone with your bare hands. It's also possible for someone to snag your gun or baton in a melee and kill you where you stand.

Yeah, I'd like to hear what was said that ignited this confrontation as well, but even the people working at White Castle said the guy was unruly BEFORE the cops got there, so maybe their presence escalated it. I'm sure the details will start to trickle in as we get further into this. Regardless, the guy attacked officers and they defended themselves. If they stepped over the line, then we go from there.

Megs79

03 Dec 2003, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Smoker29

As far as the Nurses in mental hospitals, I don't think they're dealing with people on PCP. They have people drugged up on heavy sedatives etc. If people are violent, they get strapped down.

But the nurses and other mental health workers do, from time to time, get assaulted by their charges. What happens before they're strapped down? There's usually a struggle. A friend of mine was in a neckbrace and missed a ton of work from being beat up by a 13 year old girl at her job. Usually they try to restrain these kids using blankets to immoblize them because they're not allowed to beat the patients up.
The police are allowed to use force, and that is what they did to restrain Jones. Had Jones not had a heart condition, he probably would not have died, since the autopsy found that his injuries weren't the cause of death.

monkey neck

03 Dec 2003, 10:30 AM

If a guy has arms and hands, he's armed. You can kill a man with your bare hands, ESPECIALLY if you have 400 pounds behind you to help you out.

Edited: Dangit BT, stop reading my thoughts. It's not pretty in there.

Bronzetree

03 Dec 2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by rightstarter
And this is pathetic-- so there are no more unarmed people in confrontations with police?? okay !!!

Everybody Write that down. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the police to have a confrontation with an unarmed person. do NOT say unarmed and police in the same story. It can't happen!!!

Well, I can't vouch for monkey neck, but that wasn't what I was saying. I was simply saying that you can kill with bare hands, or get your hands on a cop's weapon. It's not an invitation to use deadly force when attacked by an unarmed perp, but it is an invitation to defend yourself.

dcXhc

03 Dec 2003, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by rightstarter
And this is pathetic-- so there are no more unarmed people in confrontations with police?? okay !!!

Everybody Write that down. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the police to have a confrontation with an unarmed person. do NOT say unarmed and police in the same story. It can't happen!!!

r0x0r

While it may seem laughable on the surface, there is a lot of truth to that statement. From what I've gleaned from the "experts" on the news, in a situation in which a suspect is not just resisting arrest, but attacking the police as well, the police have to assume that he will go for a gun if he can. Thus, they are trained to take whatever action is necessary at that point to keep the suspect from getting the gun.

BigSugar

03 Dec 2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by davepurcell
I'll ask the same question Dave Davis asked over on CincyMusic: is it unreasonable to ask the police force to have a better way to handle large, mentally unstable people than to beat the fuck out of them with sticks?

Nurses and orderlies handle large, drugged-up, unstable people in mental hospitals and ERs all the time, and while I'm no expert, I suspect they have methods other than beating the fuck out of them with sticks.

But no one wants to talk about policy, because it's apparently more fun to argue about blacks who deserve to die because they made a mistake vs. lookit what racist pig cops we have.

dp

first Dave, lovely hate-baiting by talking about me being in the Klan (assuming that's what you meant by your "hood" comment). I expect better from you b/c of your education, regardless of your politics. nice. (if you bother watching the full news conference with your favorite NAACP fella, his comments and comparisons of this event were ridiculous and uncalled for. He was unwilling to separate the situations from the past, despite the clear differences, and lumped it all together with his racist view of white cops....that's race-baiting, plain and simple....he might as well have said "don't trust white cops....let's go riot/boycott solely b/c a black man died and cops were involved." I notice he's backed off since the drug information came out.)

second, talk to my sister michele about what they do in ER's when 400 pound people freak on drug or just plain go crazy. they either administer heavy doses of narcotics (which the police can't do), or they have the police officers who are in the ER subdue the person with force. I've heard many a story of exactly that happening. So, know of what you speak before you make such random incorrect statements. Violent people get beat down in the ER too.

to many here, any force is "excessive". I'm sure the police would have loved to wait for a stun gun, but in the meantime, this violent fucker attacked a cop, grabbed his baton, and allegedly grabbed for an officers gun in the scuffle. He deserved way more of a beat down than he got, and it has nothing to do with his race.....it has everything to do with the fact that he assaulted a cop, and then his fat stupid heart stopped b/c he hadn't had that much of a workout since grade school. He was responsive and struggling the whole time they tried to cuff him, and only after the cops had him under control and released him did he stop breathing. Then the "racist pig cops" as you so eloquently called them Dave, could be seen on video to call for and guide the paramedics to their position to help the man. stupid racist pig cops trying to cover their murderous trail, right?

Does it matter to any of you that each of the 6 suspended cops had perfect personnel jackets.....not a single problem with any of them, and most especially, no issues with racist complaints or assaults.

but who cares, right? let's side with the cop assaulting, drug using dude solely on race issues. sounds just.

BigSugar

03 Dec 2003, 11:36 AM

I'm gonna point out one more thing:

if indeed the cops suffocated this man to death by kneeling on him in subduing him, and he indeed died from asphyxiation, then how on earth was he crying, sobbing, and calling for his "mama" up until very near the time they got him cuffed and the cops let go of him?

positional asphyxia (what is alleged here by some), according to the Kentucky Coroner, takes 3-5 minutes for death to occur. Any time short of that, and recovery is very likely. I had the coroner on the stand for half a day explaining this very thing, and did about a month of research on this for a murder trial years back. So, while i'll wait for the coroner's report, the video and sound from the incident tell me that this was not an asphyxia situation....what confuses me though, is that he still had a pulse but wasn't breathing. if his heart caused this problem, then he shouldn't have had a pulse, right?

well, i guess that's why they have autopsies. maybe he had a pulmonary embolism, which is quite likely considering his weight, and the fact that i'm sure he had clogged arteries somewhere in his body. if one of the clots released and hit his lungs, he was fuct from the go.....

yoyo

03 Dec 2003, 01:59 PM

Officers used both chemical irritant and pepper spray on Jones, Streicher said. And, he said, it took three sets of handcuffs, linked together, to get Jones' arms to reach behind his back.

• A Taser - which administers an electrical current meant to temporarily debilitate a suspect - was not an option because the department took them off the streets, Streicher said, because they found them ineffective and inaccurate.

• Officers are trained to use their batons, called PR-24s, as jabbing tools to cause pain and force a suspect's compliance, said Ted Schoch, training academy director.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/12/03/loc_fatal03.html

BigSugar

03 Dec 2003, 02:48 PM

Here's the full story on the Coroner's news conference:

Reported by: 9News
Web produced by: Liz Foreman
Photographed by: 9News
Last updated: 12/3/03 1:51:19 PM

The Hamilton County coroner said Wednesday that a struggle with police was the primary cause of the death of a suspect this past weekend in Cincinnati.
Dr. Carl Parrott added that if suspect Nathaniel Jones hadn't been using cocaine and other drugs, and if he hadn't had heart disease that may have resulted from drug use, he probably would have survived the struggle.

"An event caused his death. It was a purposeful effort on the part of the police officers to subdue him. That resulted in the struggle that resulted in the death. I don't really have a choice other than to call it a homicide," Parrott said.

Parrott added that Jones' death has been ruled a homicide by his office, but was quick to point out that the term is strictly clinical.

"This word should not be implied as inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police. The word does not imply hostile intent," Parrott said.

"We have four options and we have to pick one," said Parrott, indicating that the death did not fall in the classifications of suicide, accident or natural cause.

A police cruiser videotape shows a violent confrontation between officers and Jones, 41, in the parking lot of a fast-food restaurant. Jones was repeatedly beaten with nightsticks as officers try to subdue him.

Jones, who weighed 350 pounds, had an enlarged heart and hypertensive heart disease, coroner Carl Parrott said.

Toxicologists also found "intoxicating levels" of the illegal drug PCP (angel dust,) which was taken approximately five hours or less before death and "intoxicating levels" of cocaine, which was taken approximately three hours or less before death.

Methanol, a frequent constituent of embalming fluid, was also found in Jones' system. Methanol is sometimes found in PCP-spiked cigarettes, Parrott said.

in summary: dude was whacked on coke and pcp to intoxicating levels. dude had heart disease and high blood pressure. dude fights cops who are trying to arrest. dude's heart gives out and he dies. No findings of any abuse/mistreatment by the police which contributed to the death. They did their jobs. Nat resists. Nat basically kills himself in doing so.

Coroner says that had he not been this size, been on pcp and coke, and not resisted, he would be alive. Despite the "homicide" title, i think the report clears the police of any wrongdoing in the death.

thoughts?

butter_of_69

03 Dec 2003, 02:58 PM

Sug, it's not up to the coroner to clear the cops of wrongdoing in this death any more (unless he had found it a death due to "natural causes", which he did not). The coroner clearly says that the report makes no finding of wrongdoing involving the death of the man, but the fact that it is a homicide means that we will be hearing more about this. Plus, the coroner makes it clear that he wants to stay out of saying whether or not excessive force was used.

And for the record, I think the cops did what they had to do to protect themselves in this case.

BigSugar

03 Dec 2003, 03:17 PM

actually wrong. it is up to the coroner to determine if the police, by their infliction of force, caused the death of the person. He found that none of the blows which have been alleged to be excessive caused the death, and ruled that the struggle itself was one of the causative factors, along with the intoxication by PCP and cocaine, and the heart disease and high blood pressure. In fact, the coroner ruled that it was likely that had nathaniel jones not been on the drugs, he likely would have survived the struggle.....if i was to use legal terms, it means the actions of the police were not the "proximate cause" of the death, but their attempts to subdue this man were a factor in the death.

this rules out the force issue in the death, but doesn't stop the inquiry into whether the force used was per the CPD guidelines.

and for those that have trouble with these guidelines, please start blaming the Justice Department, the Black United Front, and the Coalition for a Just Cincinnati.....they helped develop these rules and signed off on the policies used in this situation.

where can i see the white castle security footage? can't seem to find it.

Megs79

03 Dec 2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by BigSugar
where can i see the white castle security footage? can't seem to find it.

WCPO has a slide show of stills from the white castle security cameras.

butter_of_69

03 Dec 2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by BigSugar
this rules out the force issue in the death, but doesn't stop the inquiry into whether the force used was per the CPD guidelines.

But won't that be where the real ruling of wrongdoing will occur? In front of a grand jury?

paranoidandroid

03 Dec 2003, 03:51 PM

...who thinks Valerie Lemmie just made herself sound like she is 10 years old?

BigSugar

03 Dec 2003, 03:52 PM

nope. the proper degree of use of force is an internal matter, not a criminal matter. it would only go to a grand jury if the force was ruled to have caused the death.

BigSugar

03 Dec 2003, 04:11 PM

so we issue the police with stun guns/tasers. only problem is that running 50,000 volts through an overweight drug user with hypertension is more likely to kill him than a couple dozen baton hits to the knee and back.

so next.....rubber bullets. only problem is that you have to aim center mass when you discharge a weapon...meaning that a rubber bullett travelling at 200 miles per hour is going to hit the heart area of an overweight drug user with hypertension. result: heart attack most likely.

maybe you'd like if we issued super soakers to the cops so that the "victims" being arrested just get wet?

maybe we should require citizens to tattoo their entire medical history and history of drug use and abuse on their foreheads and everyone has to take a timeout when an encounter occurs so that the police can read the history and make a medical determination as to how much force, if any, can be tolerated by the "victim to be".

you saw the cop backing away from Jones, right? you saw Jones charge the cop right? you saw Jones tackle the cop, right? it's at THAT POINT that the cop has to make a decision on the use of force....not a lot of time to ask medical histories and make determinations of what drugs the person is on and whether they'll react badly with their medical/drug history.

that's why the CPD guidelines say no head or heart shots with the baton. that's why the cop didn't pull his fucking gun and shoot the dumbass. everyone on that scene was under stress, but only one person died from the stress, and lo and behold, it was the PCP/coke freak! shock of shocks. those people involved not 200 pounds overweight and not on pcp and coke survived the obviously stressful situation.

i feel terrible for his family and his sons. it's tragic, but Jones chose the wrong night to do drugs and fight the police. Jones bears 100% of the fault in his death.

matt

03 Dec 2003, 04:37 PM

FACT: Coroner rules fight with police primary cause of death.

"Absent the struggle, however, Mr. Jones would not have died at that precise moment of time."

I read this two ways:
1) You resist arrest and assault a cop, you risk losing your life.

2) He died because he resisted arrest.

Cause, meet effect.

And that is my opinion on that.

BigSugar

03 Dec 2003, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
additionally, you positing ridiculous arguments is so disrespectful. if I'm supposed to like those things, I bet you'd like it if cops could just kill all black men they came in contact with, with no repercussions ever, since I'm sure they've done SOMETHING wrong in the past, and really, since the deaths of the last 7 or 8 cops have been at the hands of black men, aren't all black men immediately threats?

I'm sure that's what you'd love to see, all black men dead, at the hands of police, and the police all innocent of any charges.

since we're positing ridiculous arguments I just thought I'd throw some your way

well, you chose a doozy. compared to your idea, super soaker toting cops is pretty sane.

davepurcell

03 Dec 2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter Don't cops go through rigorous training? aren't they supposed to be in shape? don't they chase suspects? You mean to tell me an in shape, highly trained person couldn't back quickly away from a 350 pound 5-6 guy???

come on, i'm not even in that great of shape and I guarantee you I could have gotten out of fat alberts way right there.

The Fat Albert line is the first thing that's made me laugh all day. "Hey hey hey, got cops on their way."

I couldn't agree more rightstarter. One hand, people arguing that the cops didn't kill Jones because he was a walking heart attack waiting to happen. And at the same time, they're acting like dude is some PCP-supercharged cross between Lawrence Taylor, Muhammad Ali, and Bruce Lee...LT Ali-Lee! Oh, and they were "caught off-guard" too, even though cops respond to situations like this all the time and, one would think, ought to be prepared since that's their job.

But saying anything like this makes you automatically anti-cop.

Fat Albert...I'm still laughing.

dp

BigSugar

03 Dec 2003, 05:43 PM

c'mon dave. the "caught off guard" comment was a random comment someone above made about the initial swing/attack, not the situation as a whole. right? i thought i read that in one of the previous posts, and someone latched onto it to mean that the police were caught off guard by not being prepared to handle a drugged up big man. not the case in my humble opinion.....

the fact is that PCP makes one irrational, gives a person what has been termed "super human" strength, and a tolerance to pain that is abnormal. Combine that with a 350 pound man of some strength already, and it's not pleasant for anyone to deal with, muchless a cop in the middle of trying to a) find out what's going on, and b) protect themselves from random attack by those they're trying to talk to.

to say that anyone else could have easily dodged this charging, swinging man is pure speculation, and only serves to inflame the situation. the fact is, noone here knows what they would have done, or how they would have reacted. what we do know is that this guy charged/swung on the cop. the cop dodged the brunt of the attack and countered. another cop came to his aid. within minutes, they had Jones subdued, handcuffed and he then stopped breathing. Coroner's determination that he died from stress related to the fight with police, in direct combination with the PCP and coke in his body, further exacerbated by the heart disease, obesity and high blood pressure.

and for the record, i thought the fat albert thing was pretty rude.....although, actually saying "hey hey hey, cops on their way" out loud did make me laugh a little.

davepurcell

03 Dec 2003, 05:52 PM

I watched Afterschool Special too, I know all about the realities of PCP. The "caught off guard" thing is not a random comment -- I'm not picking on Bob, because I've seen and heard other people make it today. Cops shouldn't be caught off-guard by much of anything, let alone a fucked-up guy outside of White Castle (what are the odds?).

On a related note, I just remembered this. I was unloading after a gig at York Street Cafe on Sept 5. It was a good crowd, and there was some kid at the bar who got royally fucked up while we were playing. He passed out at one point, then woke up -- the bar cut him off, he got pissed, starting yelling and annoying everyone (I missed all this, I was off getting paid, etc.). The staff called the Newport cops, who came in and got him.

In the meantime, I packed up and was loading out. I hear a scuffle and lots of people yelliing -- the Newport cops are trying to get the kid to, guess what, put his hands behind his back and he wouldn't. He was fighting back, big time. All of his friends were yelling and urging him to calm down. There were five or six cops there by that point.

Guess what...no batons drawn, no one thrown on the ground, no hits. They patiently wrestled with the kid until they finally got him in cuffs. I'm watching this whole thing and one of the cops yells at me to back away (I was ten feet away). I told him I was just observing (at this point, I didn't know the whole story and didn't know the kid has been a jackass in the bar). The guy screams at me to back away or "I'll fucking arrest you too." Yeah, I'm standing there wth a guitar and an amp in my hand, I'm a real nuisance (though by some folks' estimation, I would be armed at that point).

Point being: white kid. Fucked up. No batons. No beating. No death.

dp

IPrayForSound

03 Dec 2003, 11:15 PM

Okay, I've got an opinion now (and the crowd goes wild, as they've been waiting for this with bated breath). If Nathaniel hadn't been obese and on drugs and beligerent, he'd likely still be alive. What? That's not an opinion? Shit...sorry. Nah, I really don't have an opinion yet. If it turns out that it was ruled a homicide because the police beat him too hard (and I mean too hard for anyone, not just an overweight intoxicant), I'll be in favor of punishing the police. If it turns out that it was ruled a homicide because any serious physical exertion would've blowed up the dude's heart, I gotta say that it's a shame but no else's fault but Mr. Jones'.

PS...Due, did I just see you on Channel 12 news?

Duemellon

04 Dec 2003, 07:49 AM

PS...Due, did I just see you on Channel 12 news? yes you did. I went to the council expository chat & spat in Walnut Hills last night. I was able to see 2 different videos of the incident, and also the still-photos of the various White Castle videos. What I saw bothered me, and I urge you all who read my statement, to read it with intent of understanding what I saw from my perspective. (oh, and what I did I say? After the meeting I hung out with a few peeps... kinda an impromptu board bash)

Overall:
The initial incident was minor. It got out of hand quickly, and major errors were made in judgement by the civil services after the initially bad judgement by "Skip" (Nathaniel Jones) which greatly contributed to seal his death.

Things I saw:
The initial vid shown was the WC stills. It gave a timeline of events from about 5:44 - 6:01a. There were a few things in there which made the WC vid incomplete, and because there is no audio, it doesn't properly fill in for the time missing in the various cruiser's vids. However, it does remove a few other questions.

Skip was being a nuisance. His actions were scaring & concerning patrons, but he was not a "stranger" there as he met someone he knew. EMS was called but they initially addressed the wrong individual, who began hyperventilating for some unspecified reason. The EMS then turned their attention to Skip who wasn't being cooperative, but not being violent. He was not acting "normal".

EMS or WC called the cops. I'v forgotten this detail, but it was important to note that the cops were unaware of EMS's reasons for being there, and EMS appeared confused as to why the CPD was there.

CPD enters WC and tries to assess the situation. Skip still acts erratically (not to be mistaken for erotically, his dancing was in no way intoxicating). The CPD approach him, have a quick talk with him, and Skip walks away. The CPD return to their cruiser and Skip approaches them. At this time the officer clicks back on the cruiser to begin videotaping the incident when they realize that Skip has come back and this might get "interesting".

They ask Skip, in a relatively calm manner, but from a close proxitimy, "what is going on" in an attempt to understand the situation (so far so good coppers). However, Skip breaks into a rage. Seemingly unprovoked by CPD's mannerisms or question.

After that you can watch the rest of the video.

Things I didn't realize/know before:
1: EMS was there during the scuffle, which took place from 6:58 - 6:01, and left at 6:01 when the scuffle was ending.

2: The coroner still states that bruises were only located on the right side of Skip's body, on his legs, thighs, and shoulder. However, in the vid, it is clear the CPD struck him mainly on his left side all over his body.

3: A few blows did strike his head (2, to be specific)

4: When the other cops arrived, Skip was basically "winded" or at least no longer resisting. They secured him and after a few minutes (6:02 - 6:04 or so) they realized he wasn't breathing

Disturing things from video:
The EMS left at 6:01 under no direction from the CPD, under no policy or procedure saying they should've left.

When CPD discovered Skip was not breathing, they didn't not administer CPR. Instead they "panicked" and froze up. One individual did attempt some rescuscitory measures, but they were clearly inadequate, improper, and tentative. The CPD, after noticing Jones wasn't breathing, stood around and waited for the EMS to return.

My conclusion is:
Nathaniel Jones used horrible judgement and attacked the CPD relatively unprovoked. The initial response by the CPD was improper. However, their actions will most likely fall under "proper policies and procedures" and they will be exhonorated and the procedures will not be reviewed for modification.

Other statements:
I comment city council for holding themselves accountable to some degree by participating in that PR event last night. I appreciated everyone who came there and I felt saddened by the way the event began to degrade into a venting & accusatory event.

oh...

I was interviewed by several papers after the event, Post, Enquirer, AP Wire, and such. You might not have heard the last of me.

monkey neck

04 Dec 2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by rightstarter
the point here is lets get a policy that better insures people like this father of two live to get treatment instead of getting buried 6 feet deep.

That's his responsibility, not the public's. There are plenty of people and organizations that can help with addiction.

And, honestly, I don't buy your argument about white people pointing guns at cops and not getting shot. If anyone points a gun at a cop, they're going to be shot. I'm sure there's no stats on this type of thing, but I'm sure both of us are right some of the time (if that makes any sense).

Did anyone see this guy's family on Good Morning America this morning? Of course they're going to be a little bit partial, but they skirted around the issue that he was strung out on drugs and out of control. They said something about how cops should treat mentally challenged people differently. I didn't see Mr. Jones wearing his "Don't arrest me because I'm high/mentally challenged" shirt on and neither did the cops. These people had no argument at all.

yoyo

04 Dec 2003, 09:42 AM

Due, thanks for your insight. It was pretty fair, all things considered.

monkey neck

04 Dec 2003, 09:44 AM

I've seen the footage of the guy on the chair, too. I am curious about the procedure there. If there is some distance between the suspect and the cop, and the cop is able to take cover if shots are fired, maybe that's why. But if the suspect is in point blank range and there is no cover, there's going to be a dead perp.

What situations do you know of that are similar except the suspect is black and they were shot?

BigSugar

04 Dec 2003, 10:37 AM

first, to clear the record, it was my genius and insight that mentioned the breathing had stopped before the pulse had stopped. so, someone pat me on the back.....

that being said, it's real easy to mistake the pulse in your own fingers for the pulse in someone's neck, especially if your heart rate was just racing from a conflict. it's possible that the cop was feeling his own pulse as he felt Jones' neck. how probable, i don't know, but it's possible.

everything Due mentioned up until Jones took a swing indicates that the police did nothing wrong and did nothing to provoke Jones into his attack. i'll accept that, as i'm sure that's the case. as for the "head shots" that were mentioned, i didn't see them, but apparently they left no bruising or marks on Jones according to the coroner's report, so they couldn't have been very hard shots if they occurred at all.

and Dave, as for the white drunk kid at York, it's a big step from a 150 pound drunk indie kid to a 350 pound PCP/Coke intoxicated person. i'm sure that had the kid been harder to control, then you would have seen much more force....the Newport cops aren't known for their restraint....i've got several beaten clients to prove it (white and black, for the record.)

as Martin said, the truth shall set you free.....and the truth is, the police didn't kill this man...they didn't use "excessive force" either. the tragedy is that he died from heart failure and his two sons and sweet grandma are without their "Skip". everyone should step back and take a lesson from this instead of blaming and pointing fingers. peace out.

Smoker29

04 Dec 2003, 10:44 AM

In response to the women above who made the statements...

1) He should have put his hands behind his back and not resisted arrest and he wouldn't have been beaten.

2) The cops at the time had no idea what this guy was on. When you've got any perp including ones who are out of control, the first thing you need to do to control the situation is to get them in cuffs. As you've seen from the video, this was not working too well.

Also, something else that hasn't been brought up is the cops had no idea whether or not he had a knife or a gun on his person.

Bronzetree

04 Dec 2003, 10:48 AM

Originally posted by Duemellon
Disturing things from video:
The EMS left at 6:01 under no direction from the CPD, under no policy or procedure saying they should've left.

This one bugs me, too. It makes no sense.

My conclusion is:
Nathaniel Jones used horrible judgement and attacked the CPD relatively unprovoked. The initial response by the CPD was improper. However, their actions will most likely fall under "proper policies and procedures" and they will be exhonorated and the procedures will not be reviewed for modification.

I read through the entirety of this post, and for perhaps the first time, I found myself nodding at your words. In agreement. You presented the known facts in a clear and precise way, enlightening me to a few things I was unaware of. Call the calendar people so they can mark this down as the official end of civilization.

However, when you got to the quoted section above, you lost me. It seemed to me like the rest of your post was saying the cops were reactive and not proactive. That Jones was unprovoked and the cops reacted. Could you be more specific on how you feel the "initial response" was improper? By initial response, do you mean the clubbing, or do you mean the manner in which they first approached him? I'm not trying to snipe or discredit you here, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean.

I know that you feel the beating the cops administered was improper given the circumstances (though considered proper by CPD), and I honestly can't say I disagree 100%. Maybe just 90%. A small part of me thinks things could have been done differently, but at the same time, as has been stated, there were no telltale signs that the guy had heart problems or a history of mental problems (did he?). The police saw a large man who appeared to be on drugs attacking them and responded by defending themselves. When you're being clotheslined to the ground, there's really not time to assess whether he's mentally ill or that his heart might give out in the struggle. You have to defend yourself.

I do indeed feel for his family and regret that he died in a struggle that shouldn't have happened, but I'm not ready to come down on police for doing what they needed to survive. After seeing the video a number of times now, though, I think some of the blows delivered were unnecessary. He was down and trying to get up, but not having much success. They could have probably let him get up and tried to calm him down. The blows themselves didn't contribute to the death, but they may have on someone far smaller than Jones.

*edited to add that I was typing this as righstarter and Smoker's posts were apparently being typed, so it wasn't influenced by the women who came forward story or anything thereafter.

davepurcell

04 Dec 2003, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by BigSugar and Dave, as for the white drunk kid at York, it's a big step from a 150 pound drunk indie kid to a 350 pound PCP/Coke intoxicated person. i'm sure that had the kid been harder to control, then you would have seen much more force....the Newport cops aren't known for their restraint....i've got several beaten clients to prove it (white and black, for the record.)

Your assumptions speak volumes. Where did I say he was a 150 lb indie kid? Dude was at least 6'2" and cut, and the cops had a VERY hard time controlling him. The reason one of his friends was so upset about his fighting back is because he knew the kid could do some damage. If he weren't big and threatening, I suspect the York Street staff would've called the police. I guarantee this kid was more dangerous than a seemingly out-of-shape Nathaniel Jones.

You're a big MLK fan, are you?

Originally posted by rightstarter I've long believed that part of the reason for the differential treatment black people receive from society in general and thus also the police department, is because officers *generally* are white and *generally* I think they don't have the same feelings and emotions they do when interacting with whites as they do with blacks...<snip>....But when they come into contact with a black person, that person is an extreme "other" and there is no "form" to use those old philosophy ideas for them to refer to, because often they've had little non-police-job-related social contact and personal interaction (not seeing people in malls or something) with non-whites.

Well said. There is a ton of research on this, not with police in particular, but society in general. It's very compelling, but based on the responses in this thread, I don't suspect too many people here would be swayed by it). The lack of meaningful interracial contact (i.e., not seeing someone in a shopping mall, as you said) is a huge problem in our society in terms of race relations and general social cohesion. It's the topic of my current research and so far, the picture is pretty grim.

More fun with the Cinti police & race -- anyone remember when Primetime, on the corner of Vine & Calhoun, was open in the mid-90s? I used to get dragged there back in the 80s by college friends and saw some of the most wicked bar fights I've ever seen there. Saw one dude's eye literally get gouged out by a guy's cowboy boot. The police were never there. Once it turned into Primetime and became a mostly-black club, the cops were there every night. They would block the intersection of Calhoun Street & Vine to force cars down to Jefferson, and they would funnel the black folks leaving the club like cattle, one way or another, regardless of where they wanted to go.

My wife and I were driving back to our apt in Clifton and got hung up at the roadblock. I parked the car, grabbed a notebook from my backpack, and told cops I was an AP reporter (I wasn't). Two cops -- one black, one white -- both told me off the record that there was no question they were only there because it was a black club. They agreed with me that there was more violence at mostly-white clubs -- including Flanigan's down on Second Street at the time -- but that they were ordered to go there by their superiors. So every weekend night, if Primetime was crowded, they would essentially shut down part of Clifton to funnel the black kids out of the club.

But really, I'm wasting my time here, because folks have shown a remarkable ability to dodge the facts or rationalize behavior others find deplorable. People are going to believe what they want to believe and until racial stereotypes are broken down by meaningful interpersonal interaction, the status quo will remain. Unfortunately, given patterns of residential, occupational, and cultural segregation, that's not going to happen anytime soon.

dp

weezer6

04 Dec 2003, 12:03 PM

i've seen plenty of cops episodes where they squash the shit out of some cracked up white prostitute. generally it's two 150 lb. and up dudes, kneeling on her back and doing their best to pop her arms out of the sockets. they don't horse around, if the chick resists, she goes to the ground, in what looks to me like a very harsh manner. she doesn't even have to try and hit the cops, she just has to resist getting cuffed. i'm guessing the cops would have loved for the take down, arm twist method to work, but they weren't dealing with a 100 lb. chick who was just trying to get away, they were dealing with a big dude who was actually attacking them.

the example of the white guy outside the club, the 6'2" dude, was he trying to clobber the cops, or just resist being taken away? most drunk dudes i've seen are just trying to get away and run, not actually trying to beat the shit out of the cop.

and this cpr issue. why would someone risk getting in close contact with someone who was just trying to beat their ass, and administer cpr? maybe he'll come to while i'm helping him out and try to bite my lip off, maybe not, bygones are bygones, forget about when you tried to do me in, that's in the past.

what the clear solution to this problem is that every scenario possible, that a cop might encounter, is investigated. reaction plans and specific procedures can be put in place, and then the cops can spend their entire career in training, not on the job, in training, so that no situation will exist that doesn't have an approved procedural response. prior to arresting anyone, a questionairre will be administered, regarding the suspects medical history, personal relationships, political beliefs, etc., and then maybe a consent to arrest form can be signed by the person about to be arrested. maybe the potential suspects can attend some classes, so that they can better understand the police. they can be instructed to announce their intent. things like "i only plan to resist!", or, "i may try to hit you, but not that hard, officer!" and "officer, i'm out of shape, so when i try to beat your ass, don't make me get out of breath when you take me in to custody!" yeah, shit like this should clear it all up, and i'm sure everyone will cooperate, cops and crooks alike.

Bronzetree

04 Dec 2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by davepurcell
More fun with the Cinti police & race -- anyone remember when Primetime, on the corner of Vine & Calhoun, was open in the mid-90s? I used to get dragged there back in the 80s by college friends and saw some of the most wicked bar fights I've ever seen there. Saw one dude's eye literally get gouged out by a guy's cowboy boot. The police were never there. Once it turned into Primetime and became a mostly-black club, the cops were there every night. They would block the intersection of Calhoun Street & Vine to force cars down to Jefferson, and they would funnel the black folks leaving the club like cattle, one way or another, regardless of where they wanted to go.

Dude, they used to do this shit outside Bogart's after metal shows right around the same time, so it may well have been racially motivated, but it might have had to do with large crowds of people who the police think might become unruly. I didn't exactly dig the fact that I, as a long hair exiting these shows on a pretty regular basis, was herded around and treated like a piece of shit, but Primetime wasn't alone. Hell, the only cop in the area that treated me with any respect was a guy named Mike who worked the security detail at the Hardees up on Calhoun that I worked third shift at. The others in the area had me pegged as a druggie troublemaker. Funny, because I'd never taken a drug in my life and never caused a bit of trouble. Regardless, the police weren't discriminatory in their discrimination if that makes sense.

But really, I'm wasting my time here, because folks have shown a remarkable ability to dodge the facts or rationalize behavior others find deplorable.

You mean the way Ken Lawson is dodging facts in the press? He claimed on Good Morning America that the missing footage was erased. The evidence Due presented above (and that we've seen repeatedly on the news) shows that the camera was cut off for a legitimate reason and came back on when the situation began to escalate. Seems to me a cop with something to hide wouldn't do such a thing.

Or by behavior that others find deplorable, do you mean a civilian attacking a cop, seemingly unprovoked? I find that deplorable, but it's somehow negated due to the other extenuating factors of this case.

I don't see anyone here dodging any facts. People are absorbing the evidence being shown and giving their personal opinions of the situation. Since none of us were there, we're all basing our OPINIONS on what we've seen and read in the news. Every single one of us.

Rightstarter and Due are most concerned with what was said in that missing 97 seconds of footage that may have provoked Jones, with RS also wanting to know why he stopped breathing but his heart was still pumping, suggesting asphyxiation. I'm curious about this as well as both pieces of evidence may shed more light on the situation. Monkey Neck, Smoker, Sug, IPFS, myself and others are of the mind that the police were rightfully defending themselves, that it was unfortunate that Jones died, but the blame doesn't lie with the police. The confrontation killed Jones, not the police. There's a huge difference there, and the coroner even admits it.

But I don't see anyone dodging facts. We all just have our personal opinions and feelings of how this thing went down.

People are going to believe what they want to believe and until racial stereotypes are broken down by meaningful interpersonal interaction, the status quo will remain. Unfortunately, given patterns of residential, occupational, and cultural segregation, that's not going to happen anytime soon.

Well, at least on this much, we agree. Unfortunately, yes, there is a great deal of all of the above going on, but it comes from all sides, not just white folks. Like you said, people are going to believe what they want to believe and there's little hope of changing anyone's feelings on how they feel about racial interaction, so it's doubtful anything significant is going to happen in our lifetime to clear up this divide. Especially considering racists of all colors usually pass that shit on to their children, making it an endless cycle. I just have to hope that the way I educate my child is the same way others are doing with theirs and they can continue to bridge the gap. Otherwise, it's never gonna happen.

weezer6

04 Dec 2003, 02:25 PM

rightstarter, i did miss that episode. did the guy try to fuck george up right before he fell over?

i haven't seen the entire footage, but from what i recollect from duemellon or somebody's post, some aid was administered. it sounded to me that those administering were being a little cautious, and for good reason.

from what i understand, there are a fair amount of people posting that are of the opinion that the cops shoulda done this, shoulda done that, shoulda been trained for this and that specific situation, and are basically dissecting every move the fuzz made, but days after the fact. the fuzz had to make their decisions right then, they didn't get to rehearse, do a walk through of their exact circumstances, or review any videotape.

now if everyone nit-picks the shit out of every detail, my previous post referring to excessive training is what you'll get. or you'll get nothing. no response. why worry that you'll not be able to remember the exact procedural response for how to react to an apparently overweight, disoriented, and irritated 41 year old black man that may or may not like white people, in a split second. fuck it, go get a doughnut and some coffee.

so my earlier post isn't that much of an exaggeration.

also, in comparing skip to the ho, it was meant more as an example of size comparison. they were able to successfully squash the shit out of the woman because of her size. if skip was a small black dude, we probably wouldn't be talking about this. he woulda got squashed and cuffed just like the chick on cops.

weezer6

04 Dec 2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=138-12032003

"Amnesty International is concerned that the death of Nathanial Jones could have been prevented; the Cincinnati police have a responsibility to know the consequences of their reported use of pepper spray. Amnesty International has documented the deaths of numerous people with heart conditions, and/or high quantities of alcohol and drugs in their system-specifically PCP- when pepper sprayed by the police. Additionally, our reports cite examples of individuals with asthma, diabetes, sickle cell anemia and a host of other medical conditions who have died in police custody after being exposed to pepper spray or teargas or being shocked with stun guns or tasers."

put this on the pre-arrest, pre-confrontation questionairre.

monkey neck

04 Dec 2003, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by weezer6

put this on the pre-arrest, pre-confrontation questionairre.

Um, it is. It's clearly asked in the question on page 24, column B on the questionaire.

dcXhc

04 Dec 2003, 02:37 PM

More support for implanting microchips under everybody's skin. The chip would hold personal health information as well as a flash toxicology screen. Police could scan this information from a safe distance with one of those UPC bar code readers. It would interface with the SCMODS database in the cruiser which would cross-reference the data with the dynamic procedure manual and spit out a case-sensitive course of action.

weezer6

04 Dec 2003, 02:45 PM

right after the question asking potential suspect if he would be offended if given direct orders from a police officer, and if the answer is yes, what method of instruction is acceptable and least likely to agitate.

weezer6

04 Dec 2003, 03:34 PM

i suggested that they don't even show up to the call.

as far as standard procedure, i think that was what i was talking about also. i have a question. what is your personal recommendation for procedural change for this situation? will that procedure apply to all suspects, or to only some of them. and if it doesn't apply to all suspects, what is the procedure for the rest of the suspects. i'm curious.

i can tell you one thing, if the cops have to tip toe around someone who looks like they might not be able to handle some exertion, then they better have to tip toe around me, even if it looks like i can take it. i don't want to be descriminated against.

Bronzetree

04 Dec 2003, 04:27 PM

Due's been absent from this discussion all day. Should we assume he's in the trenches, so to speak?

monkey neck

04 Dec 2003, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by Bronzetree
Due's been absent from this discussion all day. Should we assume he's in the trenches, so to speak?

No, he's just still typing.:p

weezer6

04 Dec 2003, 04:59 PM

i'm not dumb enough to think nothing can be done. here's what needed to be done.....don't get all torqued up on illegal substances, and then try and take down a cop!

so let's see, you're not allowed to kneel on anyone, so did you think past that statement? what is your suggestion for taking in the rather large, irrational suspect, especially right after and during his attempt to knock your block off. i'm curious, maybe if i ask the right questions, you can enlighten, we'll email your suggestion to the fuzz, and the problem will be solved.

davepurcell

04 Dec 2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter I just refuse to believe you are Dumb Enough to think that nothing reasonable can be done in the future to prevent these deaths.

It's either that or believe you're just flippant and could give a fuck about the life of this man.

That seems to characterize about 80% of what I've read on the matter...

dp

yoshomon

04 Dec 2003, 05:15 PM

I'm been following all of this since the beginning, and (surprise) I'm putting the blame on the cops.

Sunday, city hall 2pm - come out and say no to another bullshit move by the CPD.

I could explain why I'm taking this view, but I'm sure (w/o reading the thread) that someone already voiced it - or else the thread wouldn't be so long.

BigSugar

04 Dec 2003, 05:25 PM

it's pretty clear from the evidence and the coroners report that if any kneeling or sitting on Jones occurred, it was non-contributory. he did not asphyxiate. he was not cyanotic. he was responsive just seconds before, AFTER the police had subdued him and most had gotten up and walked away.

so frost, changing that policy wouldn't have done a damn thing here.....

the pepper spray issue is pretty interesting, and one that AI has been pushing for a couple years....of course, AI is pretty much opposed to any use of force, even most non-lethal. maybe we should just get rid of all the non-lethal sprays, stun guns, bean bags and rubber bullets.....then all we'll have left is regular old bullets and a bunch more dead people. sounds reasonable AI, right?

in a related story, AI has now boycotted Dominoes Pizza b/c they serve crushed red pepper with their pizza, and some fat guy got heartburn....story at 11.

and Dave, yes....i'm a Martin fan....but i'm also practical. i do agree with you on the basic problems of race relations....we are most comfortable with that which with we are familiar. new/different things scare us. we're animals and have to have this trained out of us. it's not a quick process, and it'll never be universal. glad you're out there helping study/ameliorate the problem. i knew we could count on the long haired hippies for something!! :D

Duemellon

04 Dec 2003, 07:47 PM

To clarify, I am concerned about their initial reaction to Skip's attack. Everything before that seemed honky-dory.1) He should have put his hands behind his back and not resisted arrest and he wouldn't have been beaten. there are several issues surrounding this that make most people wonder about his mental capability to comply and, during the subdual, his physical ability to do so in that situation.

5'6", 342lbs, he's not all that "nimble". He can't just stop, drop, and touch his shoulderblades. Again, he didn't initial resist, he initially ATTACKED, but when he was subdued they did not give him ample time to respond nor reduce their use of force.

We will never know for sure if he was trying to get back to up thank them with a warm handshake, or "smash-Hulk-smash".

Policies and procedures, well, there were several points made last night which are important to reiterate:

1 Substance Testing After Event
One audience member suggested that every cop who is in an incident of this magnitude immediately and mandatorily take a substance-abuse test. Striecher's immediate reaction was to say that all CPD & city employees are given a drug test as part of employment & that all city employees are expected to remain off drugs.

That was one suggestion that Streicher clearly squashed.

2 Discipline for Abuse of Policy
A former Hamilton County police officer from the audience expressed concern over seeing the manner and viciousness in which the police subdued Skip. He mentioned that he was never trained to use the nightsticks in that fashion (referring to the stabbing motion) and that it seemed apparent the melee was coming to an end but the police on the scene did not let up for some measureable time afterwards. Furthermore, he demanded that the policies for subdual & self defense be reviewed on a blow-by-blow basis and the individuals be held accountable for each blow according to those standards.

Streicher made some statements that seemed to imply the police may have been overzealous, or using their sticks improperly, and furthermore stated they will be held accountable on a blow-by-blow basis.

3 The Coroner's Report
The coroner has stated that Skip's injuries were to his legs, thighs, and butt, on his right side and that no other injuries were present of note. The coroner further said that those bruises were the result of the scuffle with police and the police's use of force.

Most of the visible blows in the tape occur from Skip's left side. The cop who does most of the swinging clearly lands several blows on his shoulders, back, lower body, and it is important to note the 2 strikes to the head area. However, the coroner found no physical evidence of this.

Go fig.

4 Administration of Compression After the Recognition of Skip's Distress
At 6:01, the scuffle was over. Skip was no longer resisting, the two cops initially there were on him. One was on his back, the other to the side, but they were no longer swining and they seemed not to be moved by Skip anymore. At 6:01 the other officers arrive and surround Skip. At 6:03-4 one officer notices Skip appears in distress and investigates. Skip, at this time, is on his belly. At 6:01-2 the cop alerts others of his concern and the other cops begin to stare at Skip.

Their stare lasts some considerable time. (seconds, almost a minute).

The officer who was concerned about Skip's condition pushes him on his side in an attempt to clear up his airways and begins compressions.

With one hand.

No attempts at mouth-to-mouth

No other cops helping, just stunned, watching.

And, I can best describe the officer's compression attempt as looking like someone was sticking their hand in a toilet. He was that tentative & unsure. His mannerisms certainly did not suggest someone who was well trained in CPR &/r committing themselves to rescicutation.i haven't seen the entire footage, but from what i recollect from duemellon or somebody's post, some aid was administered. it sounded to me that those administering were being a little cautious, and for good reason. this statement leaves me concerned for your view on people you perceive as criminals in general. This statement breaks my heart. Looking at the video he was already handcuffed, beaten, and unable to be resistant any further. The suggestion that the cops shouldn't've done it and the EMS should've reminds me of someone being defensive about the police, not realistic about the situation.from what i understand, there are a fair amount of people posting that are of the opinion that the cops shoulda done this, shoulda done that, shoulda been trained for this and that specific situation, and are basically dissecting every move the fuzz made, but days after the fact. the fuzz had to make their decisions right then, they didn't get to rehearse, do a walk through of their exact circumstances, or review any videotape.unfortunately if they look at this as an impossible task to accomplish, nothing will be changed.

Yes, we MUST analyze every blow, every word, every action and reaction. We must take a look and second guess ourselves...

SOMEONE FUCKIN' DIED in custody. I really hope that wasn't lost on you.

Realistically speaking there will never be a training manual as detailed to explain what kind of approach you make against a 5'6" 342lb man versus a 5' 7" 340lb man, but right now our guidelines for use of force are horrifically vague.

Have you even read the DOJ's recommendations that Streicher continues to tout as his savior & tennants? I've read a good portion of it and it leaves a lot to be interpreted. The difference between threatening & excessive force, judgement calls and what is lethal, I mean, there are so many ambiguuities that everything the cops did on that tape were well within guidelines set forth by the DOJ (except the lacksidaisical non-CPR maneuver). This is Streicher's defense and he paraded that around like a Get-Out-Of-Heat-Free card. In fact, if the audience there knew 1/2 of what has been done/w the Collaborative & DOJ, they'd've realized Streicher was baiting them, teasing them, saying "You wanted it, you got it... you silly bastards."

But back to the idea that cops are human too.

They are and they aren't.

The occassional lapse in judgement should be reserved for rookies. You do realize that it is more likely that a cop faces a personal & intimate life-and-death situation than the bulk of personell in the armed forces? Do the math, we have 1200 or so police in Hamiton County, there have been 60+ murders, and a large handful of shootings. Yet we train our soldiers more frequently, more earnestly, than our police, to handle stress situations and being independent and consistent in judgement. Most police careers are much longer than the average military career (I think) but we identify with them more as "human" and are more forgiving to them for their indiscretions.

That mentatility needs to change.

Look, if we're going to hold police to the same standards we hold ourselves to, then why do we have them at all? Just start passing around the cuffs & guns and we can take care of ourselves. We can't hold them to the same standards because they are expected to be in these situations and they must be prepared, mentally, physically, and materially.

Things That Got All "Stupid" In the Session:
After the first 30-45 minutes of practical and reasonable questions, personalized accusations and ventings began.

One individual made the statement to Luken that they were ashamed to have graduated from the same HS as him. Another made the statement that he'd be ashamed if he was a black police officer. And another suggested a conditional threat on Streicher's life (come for me & I kill you).

In those personal attacks there was a message that must be heard. The boardmembers reacted calmly, red-faced, and attempted to respond with composure when it was necessary to respond. However, because of the attacks most people become defensive and tend to approach emotional attacks with either more emotion or dismissive logic (ie: I'm ashamed to be a fellow alumni... mentally rebutted with... That has nothing to do with anything we're talking about. The emotion is diffused, the logic dismissed)

The big lesson to learn about was the emotions this stirred up. They have to walk away with an understanding of the huge emotional impact this incident has caused. Approaching emotions with calmness and coolness, is great when attempting to make laws to govern behavior, but there's betrayal, resentment, distrust, and insubordination, festering in the hearts of many people. Those emotions must be addressed or any and all legislative actions taken will be usurped by these same emotions.No, he's just still typing. now that was funny.

and yah, for some reason I must've been one of the most quotables there, or something. I've been in the Enquirer, on Channel 9, and the AP Wire. Different parts of what I said too.

I'll start working on Hallmark cards now.

Oh, and FYI, I have long posts to start of the night b/c when I get home I have a lot to say. You'll notice they'll start off big, but get smaller after I've said my initial piece.

monkey neck

04 Dec 2003, 08:34 PM

See? I told you he was typing that whole time!! :D

weezer6

04 Dec 2003, 08:52 PM

why do the people blaming the cops refuse to blame anyone else but the cops. why not rant and rave about the son of a bitch that supplied the mind altering drugs to mr. jones. that step of the chain of events is most definitely illegal, but it is ignored, so far, by seemingly everyone. where is the outrage? sounds like some kind of manslaughter charge, but i'm no lawyer, so feel free to correct me.

i am also impressed with the amount of police policy experts, hand to hand combat experts, and those skilled and quailified in the art of submission present on this board. with the qualifications and experience that abounds, well, it's just damn impressive.

Bronzetree

04 Dec 2003, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Duemellon
One audience member suggested that every cop who is in an incident of this magnitude immediately and mandatorily take a substance-abuse test. Striecher's immediate reaction was to say that all CPD & city employees are given a drug test as part of employment & that all city employees are expected to remain off drugs.

I'm with Streicher. Why would any of the cops be tested because of this incident? Seems to come a bit out of left field.

A former Hamilton County police officer from the audience expressed concern over seeing the manner and viciousness in which the police subdued Skip. He mentioned that he was never trained to use the nightsticks in that fashion (referring to the stabbing motion) and that it seemed apparent the melee was coming to an end but the police on the scene did not let up for some measureable time afterwards. Furthermore, he demanded that the policies for subdual & self defense be reviewed on a blow-by-blow basis and the individuals be held accountable for each blow according to those standards.

Streicher made some statements that seemed to imply the police may have been overzealous, or using their sticks improperly, and furthermore stated they will be held accountable on a blow-by-blow basis.

Now see, this was one of the questions I had earlier. I thought the jabbing with the nightsticks seemed a bit excessive, but I wasn't sure. We can't ignore the fact that the coroner found that the beating portion of the incident had nothing to do with Jones's death, but if the cops were indeed using improper nightstick techniques, they'd should be called to the mat for it. Thanks for this info, Due.

The coroner has stated that Skip's injuries were to his legs, thighs, and butt, on his right side and that no other injuries were present of note. The coroner further said that those bruises were the result of the scuffle with police and the police's use of force.

Most of the visible blows in the tape occur from Skip's left side. The cop who does most of the swinging clearly lands several blows on his shoulders, back, lower body, and it is important to note the 2 strikes to the head area. However, the coroner found no physical evidence of this.

Go fig.

Just because he was struck there doesn't mean he's going to bruise there. I know it's a weird comparison, but my daughter smacked the hell out of her face on the coffee table last week. Really fucking hard. So much so that I panicked a bit. After she (and I for that matter) calmed down, I thought for sure there was going to be a nasty bruise on her face. There was nothing. She kept licking the inside of her lip, but there wasn't even anything on the inside.

I know this seems like reaching, but it's an honest view. He may have been clubbed on his left side quite a bit, but it might not show visibly, especially considering his extra bulk.

At 6:01, the scuffle was over. Skip was no longer resisting, the two cops initially there were on him. One was on his back, the other to the side, but they were no longer swining and they seemed not to be moved by Skip anymore. At 6:01 the other officers arrive and surround Skip. At 6:03-4 one officer notices Skip appears in distress and investigates. Skip, at this time, is on his belly. At 6:01-2 the cop alerts others of his concern and the other cops begin to stare at Skip.

Are you sure these times are correct? You say that an officer notices Jones not breathing at 6:03-4 and relays that to the others at 6:01-2. Should that be the other way around?

Their stare lasts some considerable time. (seconds, almost a minute).

The officer who was concerned about Skip's condition pushes him on his side in an attempt to clear up his airways and begins compressions.

With one hand.

No attempts at mouth-to-mouth

No other cops helping, just stunned, watching.

And, I can best describe the officer's compression attempt as looking like someone was sticking their hand in a toilet. He was that tentative & unsure. His mannerisms certainly did not suggest someone who was well trained in CPR &/r committing themselves to rescicutation.

Okay, I'm with you that more should have been done to resucitate him, but is there a procedural reason they may not have moved in to help him more quickly? A reason they wouldn't have done mouth to mouth, such as the potential for AIDS transmittal? If not, then there is no excuse for not stepping in to help him sooner.

Duemellon

04 Dec 2003, 09:24 PM

why do the people blaming the cops refuse to blame anyone else but the cops. that statement is truly ignorant if you are referring to anyone who has posted in this thread so far. You have truly gone beyond making a well-thought-out post and started making some defensive stance in favor of the police.

Point out the person who has continued saying that if Skip didn't swing at the police he'd still be dead? Who even implied it? Those people who implied that Skip would be dead anyone support the cops.

You need to appreciate what others are saying here instead of just assuming it's all an attack on your precious sensibilities.that step of the chain of events is most definitely illegal, but it is ignored, so far, by seemingly everyone. really? have you been reading the same thread? Anyone else wondering where his astute observations are coming from?i am also impressed with the amount of police policy experts, their policy of use of force is public record. You want to be an expert too? Read it.

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/pages/-5960-/
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/pages/-5122-/
more specifically: http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/downloads/police_pdf5112.pdf

now stfu and read, stop ranting and read. And you TOO can be an expert in police force policies JUST LIKE ME.

Duemellon

04 Dec 2003, 09:43 PM

I'm with Streicher. Why would any of the cops be tested because of this incident? Seems to come a bit out of left field. nah, not just because of THIS incident, I'd like to see it implemented for all similar incidents. With the degree of scrunity the Po-po are under right now I'd consider this a good-faith gesture. It would only involve the cops at the scene and only when an event escalates to this level of danger.

I think it's necessary b/c of the amount many people distrust the police's judgement.We can't ignore the fact that the coroner found that the beating portion of the incident had nothing to do with Jones's death, but if the cops were indeed using improper nightstick techniques, they'd should be called to the mat for it. let me respecify... he "implied" they may have been overzealous after being confronted by this guy, but I'm sure he wished he didn't say that. and...Just because he was struck there doesn't mean he's going to bruise there. you are correct, but to imagine his right side reacted while his left side didn't at all is curious indeed. Obviously bruising is something unrelated to neurological impulses so it could develop well after his death. Although you have a good argument for no bruising, I find it odd that there were no notable abrasions elsewhere.Are you sure these times are correct? You say that an officer notices Jones not breathing at 6:03-4 and relays that to the others at 6:01-2. Should that be the other way around? other way around. Without stating specific times, this is the sequence I saw:

When the fight concluded, one officer was on top of him, the other to the side. Simultaneously the backup arrived and joined in. They struggled with securing Skip's arms behind his back with handcuffs, and stood up and took a breather. A cop, on the far side away from Skip, but still in camera view, made the observation and moved in to examine Skip. When he got there he realized Skip was in distress made a mention, and the surrounding cops did nothing. The investigating officer attempted his ackward compressions and someone suggested he gets moved on his side. All of the officers participate in rolling him on his side, but then they just "watch" and look amazed and confused that the EMS had left during the scuffle. They waited measurable minutes, while Skip lay restrained without CPR, for EMS to arrive. EMS arrives and immediately begins administering CPR.

That's the sequence to the best of my memory.but is there a procedural reason they may not have moved in to help him more quickly? A reason they wouldn't have done mouth to mouth, such as the potential for AIDS transmittal? Streicher never specifically addressed concerns about CPR by the police. It was mentioned by several others that there are sanitary masks for administering CPR to hazardous victims.

The only thing I could see was confusion, hesitation, and freezing-panic during that moment. I'm sure the full length vid is out there somewhere. There is audio, it's rather clear. There's a 2nd vid, which you might not find, but it basically shows a cruiser pointed at the fire engine as it pulls away at 6:01 with one of the firemen watching the frakas.

Someone from a FD called into a talk station and said they have a directive to leave a scene when the scene becomes perilous from something the police should be handling. This person suggested the CFD were following this directive and driving to a "safe distance" which is equivlent to 1 block away.

however, before that statement, at the meeting last night, CFD Chief Wright acknowledged that there is a directive in place that the CFD will not leave a scene where an individual is incapacitated without taking proper action.

I am really concerned the powers involved are going to place the entire blame on the CFD's shoulders and wash their hands of all the other concerns within this incident. There's plenty of blame to go around, folks, puff-puff-pass.

weezer6

04 Dec 2003, 10:54 PM

due, come on. you are an expert at reading about policies and all that shit, but are you an expert at implementation? how many people have you cuffed and stuffed? you've read about it, but have you actually performed? have you been in any fist fights? where is your basis of knowledge, besides reading and watching video, movies or whatever?

in response to your post directed at me, you're trying to tell me that somewhere in your cut and paste masterpieces that you have focused on the drug supplier as the one ultimately responsible for mr. jones death? i'll admit, when i see one of your megaposts, it is discouraging, not that i can't read, they just aren't very brief and to the point, so i kind of scan over them. it is possible that i may have missed your blaming of the pusher man. actually, it has to be back there some where, because it is the perfect opportunity for you to bust out a big batch of your social analysis.

keep up the good work, young fella.

matt

04 Dec 2003, 11:35 PM

Can't we all just get along? UGH!

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha"

Obviously everyone has their own opinion and point of view. Thank God for Isaac Newton. Y'all can debate it as long as you want, I'm all about it, but sheesh...

Now, for my random $.02: Maybe I haven't watched "the video" 500 times and scrutinized it frame by frame (as a matter of fact, I've watched the entireity of the raw footage exactly once), but I don't recall ever seeing below the horizon of the front of the cop car from which "the video" was shot. None of us were there, in their shoes, to know exactly EVERYTHING that went on. The Rodney King video was fairly obvious. But with as much as "the video" does show, there is just as much that it does not. Which is where questions are raised by those who were not there and did not witness it first hand. Y'all can argue about policies, procedures, make assumptions and dispute facts that have been confirmed by the investigators and officially released to the public, but unless you were there with the cops, the perp (before or during this disastrous morning), the paramedics, the White Castle employees, the hopped up girl-friend or the driver of that car creepping by in the background, you won't know what really happened.

There are several things about this video and this incident that concern me, but there are also several viewpoints that many of you have that also concern me. You can study this case all you want, you can gather as many facts and debate, or shall I say bicker, all you want. But in the end, where does it leave you? Most likely in the same place you started in and are now: with your own opinion.

Goodnight.

weezer6

05 Dec 2003, 12:28 AM

due, you seem a little riled up. i'm sure that an expert in police policy, specifically in the proper use of force during aprehension of a subject doesn't need me to explain that there is a difference between reading about properly conducting what is basically a fight (hence my question about whether you've been in fight), and actually conducting and participating in said activity.

i'm curious as to whether you have actually been in a fight? you haven't answered. it isn't that big of a deal, is it?

Duemellon

05 Dec 2003, 07:02 AM

i'm curious as to whether you have actually been in a fight? you haven't answered. Dear Weeze,

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner, unfortunately I decided to sleep before checking for your responsive post and your current follow-up, I do hope this reaches you in time.

That, clearly, is a ridiculous question to ask. What type of answer are you looking for. "Yes, I've been in a fight, TO THE DEATH no less, with maces, bleu cheese, and a rabid monkey." or "No, every time a fight occurs I call the cops; run and hide in my green Gremlin, and wait for the mean people to go away."

Really, what relevence is it as to whether or not I've ever been involved in a melee? I grew up in Bond Hill, I went to highschool downtown, draw your own conclusions.

Now, back to an observation you made which isn't as "loaded":due, come on. you are an expert at reading about policies and all that shit, but are you an expert at implementation? no, the trainers are. And that, there, dearest Weeze, is what must be reviewed.

Y'see, because of the language used in the DOJ & policies and procedures (which I still suggest you read, or at least give a cursory glance for keywords) is quite ambiguous. It has to be. Manuals and guidelines should be more principle driven, otherwise they'd be rewritten every second of every day.

Due to the way the guidelines are written we get this response already:
====================
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/12/05/loc_fatalstreicher05.html
...
"Even though it's ugly, even though it looks terrible, when I compare it to our policies, I don't see anything wrong there."
...
====================

No one can argue with him about that when referring to the procedures and guidelines as set in the DOJ & use of force policy. That, my uptight and tunnelvisioned associate, is what I have issue with.

I believe the guidelines are reasonable, but the actual training is non-standardized and trainees are not held responsible for adherence to those training sessions. It's kinda like me showing you how to handle a situation my way, pointing out that it's according to procedure, then, when you are out in the field you do it your way, which could be completely independent of what I showed you, and you won't be held accountable for your deviation from my training because your actions still fall within the broadly stroked guidelines.

As an analogy:
Most k-12 schools have a "no cursing" rule. Some have very specific words on that list, some simply let words fall under "cursing" dependent on context. I could exclaim "you're a fag" at Taft and no one cares, but if I say it at Moeller, I get suspended. Both fall under the same principle, it's implementation varies, even though both administrations submit themselves to the same training & oversight system.

So, as you're defending their actions by claiming adherence, or trying to goad me into revealing personal information about my pugilistic past, realize, as I do and I hope others can conclude, that if the po-po aren't held accountable to follow the specifics in training they are given, then it's the same as not having training at all.but I don't recall ever seeing below the horizon of the front of the cop car from which "the video" was shot that, unfortunately, is true. There is a lot of actions going on especially near the end, when Skip's condition is only known by the reaction of those around him. There are things that are clear in that one cop was on his back, another cop noticed his distress, and such, but I never said, and I really want to know if anyone else can, that "Skip looked like he was in trouble while that cop was on him." Yeah, this video is giving many people a false sense of knowledge about the event.you're trying to tell me that somewhere in your cut and paste masterpieces that you have focused on the drug supplier as the one ultimately responsible for mr. jones death? no, i couldn't care less about the drug-dealer. The drug dealer may have supplied him with the drugs, but he didn't say "For the ultimate buzz, go dance at a WC and when the cops get there, take a swing!" You're the only one hunting for the dealer. You should really be looking for the person who let him drive the car, after all, without that he may have never been there, or been able to get the drugs, or, if he had walked, perhaps he would've sobered up en route. Wait, a better idea, let's get on the person who taught him how to dance. His dance wasn't particularly erotic, but it should be known as the "harbringer of death-dance" from now on. Ban it.when i see one of your megaposts, it is discouraging, not that i can't read, they just aren't very brief and to the point the post this was in: 178 words, the post I specifically responded to you with 152 words.

My post immediately after my response to you (the response I had to BT) 541 words.

BT's post that I responded to 314 words.

I have 2 "megaposts" but they are sectioned off with headings and stuff, like a book. Skip around to points of interest, read just the headings to get the jist. When I post big, I try to use conventions that allow it to be easily digested. Go fig.

due, you seem a little riled up. yeah, riled up. More because of your tone & dismissals done in personally insulting ways. Me and BT were having a discussion, not attacks. In fact, it appears that most people were having a discussion. Go fig.

weezer6

05 Dec 2003, 08:30 AM

due, you get on the board and spout off as the all knowing, don't freak out if some people like to give you the business. in this instance, you choose who you want to blame, the police, and then you proceed to analyze and point out everything that the police did wrong, matter of factly, as if you are the expert. you're not the expert, and in my opinion, not fit to render verdict. therefore i give you the business.

and frankly it is sad to hear that you don't care about the drug dealer, but not suprising, since you didn't initially suggest it.

weezer6

05 Dec 2003, 08:50 AM

i just realized that i posted a response to rightstarter's post at the top of the page, thinking it was a duemellon post. my bad, you two kind of meld together.

weezer6

05 Dec 2003, 08:56 AM

Originally posted by rightstarter
there are 2 things that are ludicrous.

1 is the suggestion that we seek out the drug dealer to be angry at (as if there aren't a million places to get drugs from, and one guy is the problem). that has squat to do with squat. that's just way way off.

#2 is the suggestion that the cops undergo drug testing. I've never known drug abuse to be rampant among cops and they already submit to drug tests(per info from posts in here)... I don't think they should get tested after incidents like this unless *they* are dancing around and yelling out numbers randomly. That also seems way off base to me. And their poor judgement doesn't count as that

why is option 1 ludicrous? they go after bartenders at times when they serve someone, and then that person kills themselves driving home drunk. it isn't that much different.

weezer6

05 Dec 2003, 09:17 AM

so the dealer is not at fault, since the service he provides is illegal. wow. i wouldn't have guessed that the mere fact that his actions being illegal would exonerate him.

Megs79

05 Dec 2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Duemellon
4 Administration of Compression After the Recognition of Skip's Distress
At 6:01, the scuffle was over. Skip was no longer resisting, the two cops initially there were on him. One was on his back, the other to the side, but they were no longer swining and they seemed not to be moved by Skip anymore. At 6:01 the other officers arrive and surround Skip. At 6:03-4 one officer notices Skip appears in distress and investigates. Skip, at this time, is on his belly. At 6:01-2 the cop alerts others of his concern and the other cops begin to stare at Skip.

Their stare lasts some considerable time. (seconds, almost a minute).

The officer who was concerned about Skip's condition pushes him on his side in an attempt to clear up his airways and begins compressions.

With one hand.

No attempts at mouth-to-mouth

No other cops helping, just stunned, watching.

And, I can best describe the officer's compression attempt as looking like someone was sticking their hand in a toilet. He was that tentative & unsure. His mannerisms certainly did not suggest someone who was well trained in CPR &/r committing themselves to rescicutation.

Yeah, I find this problematic. First of all, he was going about it all wrong. CPR/chest compressions are only to be used on someone who has no pulse. If you give chest compressions to someone whose heart is still beating, you usually cause more problems. Rescue breathing/mouth to mouth should have been given. Alone. This is to keep the blood oxygenated until or if the person starts breathing again on their own.

weezer6

05 Dec 2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by rightstarter
diversionary. secondary. almost completely irrelevant. You're clearly off of any pertinent arguments here. realize it.

thank you, expert.

Shimmercore

05 Dec 2003, 03:00 PM

Man. This has caused quite a controversy based on all the responses. I've never been a fan of cops, but it seems that the 400 lbs. fellow on PCP could have just surrendered to them and he could have possibly been alive today. Fighting back at cops will only get your ass kicked or your ass shot!

- Mike

vinegurl

05 Dec 2003, 07:58 PM

I am going to make a statement and I am ready for any rebuttle and arguement and whatever may be thrown my way for it, but I will state it anyway.
We are spending so much time arguing with one another about if it was reasonable or not, but if that was a white man no one would say a thing they would call him a fat a** redneck druggy and that would be the end of it. Unfortunately in Cincinnati we have an obsession with our own racism, we love to be racist we love to hate the other and be afraid of someone, it gives us a reason to complain and not have to make a difference in others lives. The whites need to be afraid of blacks because they might riot and burn their buildings and say something to them on the street so they dont go downtown anymore, the blacks are afraid of the cops because they kill and beat and pick out only blacks, because they are racist pigs and we train our cops to be killers. Where do we get these ideas from? How do they manifest in our children's and young peoples minds? Is it all true, or do we make this true because we are taught to fear or is no one out there that wants to show us that we really do care about each other, and it has nothing to do with color.

yoshomon

05 Dec 2003, 08:16 PM

Like to give the info once more:

City Hall, Sunday 2 pm. If you're going, drop me a PM.

I'd like to add that of all the people I've talked to about this, radicals and people of color (or radical people of color as it may be) all sympathized with Jones and were critical of the police - while liberals and all shades of non-radical white people sympathized with police. Obviously, some of us have had different experiences with cops.

I'm coming from a different perspective than most in that I defend his attack against the police.

Duemellon

05 Dec 2003, 08:29 PM

Unfortunately race has taken a back seat to the rest of this discussion. Most people are focusing on the procedures used. I feel that most people recognize the pattern, but this incident, veiwed independently, further highlights a concern for anyone who deals with the cops:

their training, procedures, and equipment.

Yeah, VG, I think you're right that racism is a self-perpetuating/self-fulfilling prophecy. I haven't talked about it in this thread b/c I really don't think that's the most important issue in this incident.due, you get on the board and spout off as the all knowing, don't freak out if some people like to give you the business. b/c I know my stuff when it comes to the policies and procedures on PAPER for the CPD, and the DOJ's recommendations. You could to, if you stopped accusing me of being a "fake know-it-all" and became one yourself.in this instance, you choose who you want to blame, the police, and then you proceed to analyze and point out everything that the police did wrong, matter of factly, as if you are the expert again, watch the vid, tell me what you see when they start stabbing him with the Pt-23's, fail to give him chest compressions, and swing those things about his torso, head, and such. If you come away with a different view, then I have the elephant's trunk and you have the elephant's tail. Did I say the cops are the only thing to blame? No. In fact, I listed what I felt were the biggest mistakes in the event:

1st EMS leaving at 6:01
2nd Skip taking swing/lunging
3rd CPD panic/freeze when discovered Skip not breathing
4th Policies & procedures regarding use of force & effectiveness

Ah, but it seems that whatever I write you think I'm diametrically opposed to your opinion. Open you mind.i just realized that i posted a response to rightstarter's post at the top of the page, thinking it was a duemellon post. my bad, you two kind of meld together. so you're saying we all look alike? racist.[b]*The fifth category would be "police intervention." I feel this is appropriate.and frankly it is sad to hear that you don't care about the drug dealer, but not suprising, since you didn't initially suggest it. this argument does not seem particularly crucial to the outcome of this incident. Granted, if the dealer wasn't there Skip might not have been high, but how far back do you want to go? The incident's script calls for 1 psychotic 342lb black man, 2 EMS: 1 black, 1 white, 2 police officers: both white, and a bit role played by 4 others officers, 1 black, rest white. The scene is a WC parkinglot in the early morning.

We could blame the fact that the police showed up at all (which someone else suggested), we could even blame it on Sadam for supplying the oil that finally reached the the gas station where Skip filled his car.

I miss BT's posts, there was at least dialogue happening, not just accusations of "omniscence" and assumptions of "blaming the cops first" out of some prejudice towards my posts.

vinegurl

05 Dec 2003, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Duemellon
Yeah, VG, I think you're right that racism is a self-perpetuating/self-fulfilling prophecy. I haven't talked about it in this thread b/c I really don't think that's the most important issue in this incident.

But it is intresting how many other people think this is the issue, conviently this is the only issue, and thus calling for riots. I call for a ban against the media and those who are controlling our government, because they are controlling our police. If we are not happy with how this city and how the police are run, get in there and do something. (Like you are by going to the meetings) Riots and Boycotts for 5 years are not solving the problem, if anything they are deeping it. But I am only stating the obvious.

Duemellon

05 Dec 2003, 09:05 PM

I call for a ban against the media and those who are controlling our government, because they are controlling our police. unfortunately media gives us what we want to see. They do polls and meetings to determine we want to know about the possibly racist event than the robbery on 12th street, or the removal of the steel tarriff.

I blame the media in the same way us "indies" blame mass-production music. We know they're at fault, but so are the consumers for eating shit and naming it sugar.

As for the government, unfortunately, our local government does not control the police. Luken cannot fire Streicher, he can't even hire a replacement. Taft can't touch him either. I can't help but think someone thought that was a great idea to inhibit wide-spread corruption & conflicts of interest, but it's manifesting itself in having the police controlled by the FOP.

yes, I have made that claim that the FOP is more powerful & influential than Streicher, Luken, or Taft. Corrupt? How would we know if they were? Responsible? To who and why would they be?Riots and Boycotts for 5 years are not solving the problem, if anything they are deeping it. But I am only stating the obvious. when cleaning a particularly disorganized or messy place, you tend to temporarily make more of a mess trying to fix it.

The crucial upswing only happens after the worst downswing has occured.

Before riots & boycotts there was no action, no attention, no change. After the riots & boycotts there has been an increase of pressure.

vinegurl

06 Dec 2003, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by Duemellon

Before riots & boycotts there was no action, no attention, no change. After the riots & boycotts there has been an increase of pressure.

does that make it right to riot does that make it right to boycott? It shouldnt have gotten to that point, it did so what are they doing so it doesnt happen again? What is happening to heal the problem not just place a bandage over it and hope the stickiness doesnt wear off before it can heal its self?
I only ask these questions because I care, and I want to help solve a problem not just rename it, or move it, or cover it.

Duemellon

06 Dec 2003, 12:35 AM

does that make it right to riot does that make it right to boycott? right? in respect to the ends? the means? morality or natural consequence?

Personally, I agree/w u that boycotts & riots are symptoms of the bigger problem. Boycotts and riots can be catalysts for improvement (as Louis XVI's French subjects, Early U.S. colonists, and others).

Do I think they're part of the solution of the current state of affairs? No. With the police being the enforcers of the peace (ie: first ones on the scene of a riot), there's no independent party to mediate a spontaneous conflict and the cops will simply roll over the rebellious citizenry and martial law will be declared again.

The problem, waaaaaaaay at the bottom of this, is racism. Riots and boycotts are tools to attempt to bring resistant parties to the table for new discussions. Without these tools, what other tools are effective enough to bring the city's leaders into a discussion with a sense of urgency?

Lawsuits, marches, public outcry, and poignant questions have been easily ignored, deflected, and diminished. As much as the city hates to admit it, when the riots happened there was some motion. They had a sense of urgency. They did something different than just coming back and saying the police followed the prescribed policies and procedures.

It's hard to argue against a prescedent such as that.

vinegurl

06 Dec 2003, 09:06 AM

why do we have such a problem with the statement the police followed procedures? Are we making fault where we want? are we trying to convict those who have convicted us as means to "get back"? I am not stating whether what happened was right or not, but if I was a police officer and I was assulted or one of my fellow police officers were assulted by a 400 pd man who was going out of control, mind you by a PCP mix - I would be scared to death, and from what I saw there was not over use, I have seen 100 pb kids all screwed up on acid mix and its taken 5 cops to try and control them. As far as giving CPR from an outsiders standpoint I say WHY? why didnt they do it, but then I put myself back in that position, and he had already gotten up once, to take him out of the cuffs and give him CPR, I would have feared my life. Now killing a kid in an alley who was unarmed, there are questions to be asked but that was wrong. And the out cry was needed, outcries are needed on lots of things, but some are more comfortable turning their heads.

Duemellon

06 Dec 2003, 09:28 AM

The fact that they found these cops were operating within procedures, and have continued to find that cops have been operating within procedures in all of the major controvertial incidents:

Carpenter
The mentally challenged man with a brick, in an open field, surrounded by more than 5 cops, shot down for brandishing this brick from many feet away. All the cops who shot (multiple cops) were found to be following procedures.

Thomas
The young unarmed man chased down an alley and shot when cornered. Roach, despite not allowing Thomas time to comply, running down the alley with his finger on the trigger, and lying about the incident, was still found to be following procedures.

Owensby Jr.
The ex-military man intercepted by Jorg & partner in front of a convenience store and died in custody after a one-sided struggle involving chemical irritant, nasty words, kneeling on the back, and being left unattended while having trouble breathing. After review Jorg was following procedure.

There are many many more, but these are the biggest ones. They all fall under "following procedures". When you read the procedures and policies, you'll see that they do fall under "following procedures" because the written procedure is, as a necessity, ambivalent. However, none of these were held accountable for their actual in-house combat training techniques, lifesaving techniques, or pressure-situation decision making. None of these cops were rookies.but if I was a police officer and I was assulted or one of my fellow police officers were assulted by a 400 pd man who was going out of control, mind you by a PCP mix - I would be scared to death, I don't agree with that statement because we are not police. It should take a special character and demeanor to be a police officer as well as the ability to think rationally and react in a way which is not the way you or me would react. If they are to be held to the same standards as you and me, then we really should be handing out cuffs, guns, & badges, at the library every time a book of law is loaned out.

analogy time
At work, if a customer calls me, in a panic, about his credit issue, upset, horrified, whatever, I am not expected to react to him as a "human" I'm to react according to procedures. I remain calm, I find the problem, I get the tools to help his situation and apply them, and watch the consequences of my decision, in real time, to adjust my actions so the desired consequences occur.

In retail & customer service you know that if we were to react "human" there'd be a lot more cussing, fights, hangups, and damaged goods.

My job's possible outcomes in now way challenges the severity of the possible outcomes in a cop's daily work. However, if you're out of your mind and you call me, you expect me to follow procedure, training, remain calm, and not be "human" back at you.to take him out of the cuffs and give him CPR, I would have feared my life. you don't really need to take him out of the cuffs to perform CPR. The EMS team didn't when they arrived, and, for whatever reason, the EMS didn't hesitate to admnister it at all.Are we making fault where we want? are we trying to convict those who have convicted us as means to "get back"? I can only speak for me. I don't want vengence. If I wanted vengence I'd be in the streets causing destruction. I want someone to notice the preposturous situation that it appears that any reaction by the cops will fall under policies and procedures. If they puched, kicked, shot him, whatever, it'd fall under procedures. As was mentioned before, all the cops needed to say was they "felt" Skip was going for their gun and he'd've been shot.

Bronzetree

06 Dec 2003, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by yoshomon
I'd like to add that of all the people I've talked to about this, radicals and people of color (or radical people of color as it may be) all sympathized with Jones and were critical of the police - while liberals and all shades of non-radical white people sympathized with police. Obviously, some of us have had different experiences with cops.

As I mentioned before, I had many a run in with police back when I had long hair, so I know a little bit what it's like. I was never beaten, but I was treated like a steaming pile of shit, pulled over for no reason, harassed, etc. I sympathize with Jones's family and those who cared about him because he ended up dead during a confrontation that should never have happened. However, there are two factors here. 1) If Jones had not intiated a struggle, he would be alive. 2) If the officers on scene had administered CPR when it was clear he was in distress, he would be alive. This is where things get fuzzy for me. The only constant in the case, for me, is that he shouldn't be dead.

As for your experiences with police, I think it's plainly obvious why you have the troubles that you do.

Case in point:

I'm coming from a different perspective than most in that I defend his attack against the police.

I want to lash out at you, but it's really a waste of time.

yoshomon

06 Dec 2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Bronzetree
I want to lash out at you, but it's really a waste of time. [/B]

True.

...

Another problem I have, why didn't the shit the Miami PD pulled during the FTAA meetings make the news nation-wide? Nobody was killed - but I know one man was in intensive car unit at the hospital and many protestors were beaten and raped in jail (after being beaten and shot in the streets). Pigs have to be held accountable for their violence (and hopefully we'll get a victory at the RNC in September, cuz I'm sick of losing in the streets).

yoyo

08 Dec 2003, 08:11 AM

Bring on the Tasers. Maybe that will make it all better. Maybe it will end this thread.

BigSugar

08 Dec 2003, 11:58 AM

i'll repeat. if Jone's heart couldn't stand the "stress" of a struggle, it certainly wouldn't have survived the 50,000 volts of a taser. we'd be right here making the same "use of force" complaints/arguments, only over use of taser v. use of batons.

good old Malik Shabazz sure has his head up his ass though....nice "call to violence" you fucknut. that's what we really need....

stupid people should not breed.....

power to the individual. a salam alekum.

monkey neck

08 Dec 2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by BigSugar
a salam alekum.

Gesundheit.

Duemellon

08 Dec 2003, 05:01 PM

i'll repeat. if Jone's heart couldn't stand the "stress" of a struggle, it certainly wouldn't have survived the 50,000 volts of a taser. it's not the volts, it's the volts + ampage. we'd be right here making the same "use of force" complaints/arguments, only over use of taser v. use of batons. this isn't an argument only about "use of force" it's about policies and procedures and how the police are found to be within their boundries, but at the same time outside:

Roach: didn't give Thomas 3 secs to respond. Was running with his finger on the trigger. Lied about the events within the alley.

Jorg: didn't administer CPR. Didn't reduce his use of force when Owensby was restrained.

Carpenter: The police approached a mentally disturbed & deficient man threatening them with a brick and shot him. Why did they get within range of his 'brick'?

Jones: They did not administer CPR nor any other life saving technique they were trained in with the degree of effort they are expected to.

It's not the use of force, it's the fact they aren't following procedures and we let them be "Human" behind a gun in a role that does not call for the average Joe like you and me.

davepurcell

08 Dec 2003, 07:43 PM

Non-lethal restraint nets (http://www.xtek.net/catalogue/hrrequipment/als03.shtml)

BigSugar

09 Dec 2003, 10:35 AM

sweet. i'm gonna go buy one of those nets, put on my spiderman suit, and go capture Kirsten Dunst!!! mmmmmmmmm........kirsten dunst.......(can i get an amen?!)

i like the net idea, but it has limited capability/use. and in this situation, it would have had to have been used immediately when the officers pulled up, b/c they didn't have the time/distance to deploy a net like this (had they had one) when Jones charged them and swung. and i don't like the idea of taking the "talking the person down" aspect out of policing....if the first response of police is to use nets or tasers to control unruly people, then they change from a police unit to a goon squad. Policing is about community and safety, not "net first, ask questions later".

davepurcell

09 Dec 2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by BigSugar

i like the net idea, but it has limited capability/use.

What does it have limited capability and use?

and in this situation, it would have had to have been used immediately when the officers pulled up, b/c they didn't have the time/distance to deploy a net like this (had they had one) when Jones charged them and swung.

Quite possibly, with nets and different procedures in place, they would not have put themselves in a position for Jones to charge at them.

and i don't like the idea of taking the "talking the person down" aspect out of policing....if the first response of police is to use nets or tasers to control unruly people, then they change from a police unit to a goon squad. Policing is about community and safety, not "net first, ask questions later".

This is silly. How can it be argued that more peaceful means of restraint would take that aspect out of policing? Why would nets or tasers be their first response and turn them into a good squad? (It's hard to be any more of a good squad than they already are when the standard procedures are to beat the tar out of someone.)

Who proposed any of that? No one.

It's funny to see more peaceful means proposed and see someone attempt to argue them down with weak rhetoric. Hey, if you just prefer to see cops beat the fuck out of people, just say so.

dp

dcXhc

09 Dec 2003, 02:06 PM

Cincinnati introduces its newest Chief of Police

http://www.sierratimes.com/02/images/spiderman.jpg

BigSugar

09 Dec 2003, 02:41 PM

the net has a 20 foot minimum effective range. inside 20 feet, the net cannot fully deploy, which means it's not going to work very well. so dave, is your suggestion that police maintain at all times a 20 foot perimeter from the citizens just in case someone freaks and charges them? it's not feasible, hence why it has limited capability and use. read your link, look at the diagrams. i watched the same Discovery Channel special on non-lethal force that you did i'm sure.

tasers likewise require a minimum distance to deploy. what will happen in any policing situation is that police will arrive with tasers drawn, thereby potentially inflaming a situation they otherwise may have been able to work through peacefully....i like the idea that cops will be armed with tasers, but there still needs to be use restraints/requirements and lots of training.

i'm not poo-pooing your fancy net.....just realize that they all have limitations and aren't going to be the end all/be all of law enforcement.....it's just as likely that Jones got netted and in the struggle to free himself, died. or that he got tasered, and his heart stopped due to the large amount of electricity. non-lethal pepper-spray and non-lethal baton hits were used in this case versus pulling a gun and shooting him, but look where we still wind up.

and i still think Malik Shabbazz is a jackass....for the record.

btw...how about our boy Due getting his quote in the USA Today article yesterday....he's hit the big time!

Duemellon

09 Dec 2003, 05:14 PM

Quite possibly, with nets and different procedures in place, they would not have put themselves in a position for Jones to charge at them. let's review the incident:

Jones came back to the car, either under verbal direction from the police or of his own decision, and the cops began talking to him. Before the punch is thrown the cops can be heard telling him to "back away/stay away" as Jones closes the gap.

They were obviously uncomfortable with the distance either they chose to start at but ALSO maybe how Skip was closing the gap.

Me personally would feel insulted in our midwestern in-your-face-space conversational style to have the cops stand at least 15' away.

However, their reaction to Jones' attack was unacceptable.

Furthermore, after talking with a few weighty people they were sure to inform me that they simply cannot lay on their stomach because they simply cannot breath like that.

period.

davepurcell

09 Dec 2003, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by BigSugar and i still think Malik Shabbazz is a jackass....for the record.

And the point is? Do you think Shabazz represents the black community -- not that there is a single black community, though whites like to think that -- any more than Bill Cunningham represents the white community?

Interesting that you felt the need to call out Calvert Smith, Jesse Jackson, and Malik Shabazz. Did any white leaders or spokespersons act like jackasses during this whole mess?

dp

BigSugar

09 Dec 2003, 07:11 PM

LOL. i've personally called Bill Cunninham a prick right here on these boards.

But Calvert decided the day after the death that this was exactly like the Thomas case and that he and his followers were ready to abandon the agreement. Shabazz has directly....DIRECTLY said that violence in the streets must occur as a result of Jone's death. that's fucked up Dave, and you have to admit that. i thought you were an anti-violence guy (despite wanting to take a bat to Willie's head;)

as for Jesse, he's just out to see which pocket he can get into....same as always. I don't respect the man, and never will....i don't care how many times he repeats stories of his marches with MLK in the 50's and 60's. in 2003, he's a sham huckster.

as for my post about Shabazz....i'll take every chance i get to disparage that fucknut. i've never once said anything about him "representing the entire black community". i don't care if he purports to represent little green men from mars. i simply said he was a fucknut. fucknut. fucknut. fucknut. there, i've gone and said it again. fucknut.

davepurcell

09 Dec 2003, 07:25 PM

You just confirmed my point. Well done.

I didn't say I agreed with Shabazz. Was just curious why you felt the need to criticize the extreme statements of a black man, but not the extreme statements of a white man.

And you're wrong about Jesse Jackson. He's had some missteps like any public figure, but he's done overwhelmingly more good than harm, both domestically and internationally.

I'm done. I know that debating with you is like hitting my head against a wall, but I didn't want to let erroneous statements go unchallenged.

Good night, everyone.

Duemellon

09 Dec 2003, 07:26 PM

violence can be the answer, but not some suicidal mob-violence.

it appears that you only know the side of Malik Shabazz (Malcolm X, I assume you're talking about, after all, Malik Shabazz is as common as George Bush as a name, u'kno...) that popular white culture wants you to know.

I feel sorry for you because you can't seem to imagine that someone could genuinely have more than one facet in their lives.

After his expulsion/suspension from the Nation of Islam lead by Elijah Muhammed, he went on a Hadj. When he returned his eyes had opened and he began seeking integration alongside of MLK. However, that only lasted for a little bit because once insert dubious power that you feel assassinated him realized that him pairing/w MLK would make an unstoppably charismatic and powerful leadership towards integration did him in.

I have this feeling you readily dismiss his actions as a feint, or a straight-out-and-out lie, perhaps even a bit of revisionist history, but he wrote that.

Yep, he did. Why would he write the first bit in his book talking about how he sought segregation but then go into depth about his transformation and new dedication to integration? What a silly ploy if he was really seeking to keep them separated.

Silly.

RichmondVA

09 Dec 2003, 07:53 PM

I *think* they were talking about the Malik Shabazz of the New Black Panther Party, not Malcom X.

Duemellon

09 Dec 2003, 08:22 PM

Well, if that's so, I don't know enough about Malik Shabazz, leader of the latest self-titled New Black Panther party (I'm sure there are a dozen or so of these entities floating around) to say anything about him.

If you weren't talking about Malcolm X BS, then disregard my interjection. Unless of course it's still pertinent to you regarding your views of Malcolm Little/Malcolm X/Malik Shabazz.

postfeminist

10 Dec 2003, 07:47 AM

okay, so i really only skipped about 4 pages to reply; i just got bored and offended reading all this crap.

it looks like i came to cincinnati at the right time for all of this...it happened right after i got back.

So much to say; i know that most of you don't read long posts so i'll be as succinct as possible.

1. Classic's misread sarcasm on page 2 or 3 of this thread was the most intelligent comment i've read yet.

2. I'm appalled by the blatant disrespect for Nathaniel Jones that has been rampant in this thread. he was a person, not a "fat albert" or "dude" or a druggie or whatever. he was a person, with a family, and a life. something happened that made him choose to do drugs that night.

3. what about the way of the world that has caused folks to turn to drugs/alcohol/etc for escape? a) what was it about living here that made Mr. Jones need an escape? b) what happened to him that night that he chose to take PCP & cocaine? c) what in his life contributed to his obesity and other health problems? All of these factors came together in the ending of his life. why don't we ever take these opportunities to ask the questions, He was more than some guy the cops beat.

My problem with every one of these men who have died in police custody, is that in their deaths, they have been made martyrs or wrongdoers. what about who they really were? Nathaniel Jones had a family who loved him; they were all so shocked to see him acting violently--they didn't know him that way. Timothy Thomas was a young father who went out at 3 a.m. for a pack of smokes. These men have been reduced to facts & figures, statistics, bad examples. In death, they are somehow more important than they were in life, which i see as wrong--where was the NAACP when Jones decided to take drugs? When Thomas was up all night with a crying baby? When a group becomes reactionary in nature, and never proactive anymore, they have failed their constituents. Maybe the police have the same problem.

edited to add color.

weezer6

10 Dec 2003, 10:41 AM

living in dayton, and having some internet blocks limiting me here at work, could someone tell me the time elapsed from when the cops realized mr. jones was in distress to when the emt's arrived. thanks.

BigSugar

10 Dec 2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by davepurcell
You just confirmed my point. Well done.

I didn't say I agreed with Shabazz. Was just curious why you felt the need to criticize the extreme statements of a black man, but not the extreme statements of a white man.

And you're wrong about Jesse Jackson. He's had some missteps like any public figure, but he's done overwhelmingly more good than harm, both domestically and internationally.

I'm done. I know that debating with you is like hitting my head against a wall, but I didn't want to let erroneous statements go unchallenged.

Good night, everyone.

what have i confirmed?? that bill cunningham is a dingleberry or that Malik Shabazz (New Black Panther Party) is an equally big or bigger dingleberry? have i confirmed that violence isn't the answer? i appreciate the sarcastic "well done"....but what are you really talking about, since i wasn't trying to shoot your point down.....sorry that you feel like your "beating your head" here....that's not the purpose....i have strong opinions on some topics....sorry if you feel put upon.

and my opinion of the right reverend Jesse is an opinion based upon my experience and knowledge of the man and his actions. it can't be "wrong". i think he's a money-grubbing putz. that's what "I" believe and know in my heart to be true. i never said he didn't do good somewhere at some time....after all, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then...but my "opinion" of Jesse is no more wrong than your "opinion" of Bush. we both believe equally strongly on those topics, and no amount of hand wringing on here will change that....i'm not trying to change your opinion. there are things we simply have to agree to disagree.

BigSugar

10 Dec 2003, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by rightstarter
due probably has precise information, but I thought it was 4 minutes

the tape was only 6 minutes long....it was more like 2, but i haven't watched the tape recently enough to confirm.

davepurcell

10 Dec 2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by BigSugar

and my opinion of the right reverend Jesse is an opinion based upon my experience and knowledge of the man and his actions. it can't be "wrong". i think he's a money-grubbing putz. that's what "I" believe and know in my heart to be true.

Based upon your experience? You have personal experience with Jesse? Do tell.

Or did you just read "Shakedown," the hatchet job the reporter from the American Spectator did on him?

i never said he didn't do good somewhere at some time....after all, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then

- Spends over 30 years with Operation PUSH, an organization that has helped millions of poor, inner-city blacks with issues of employment, empowerment, education, voter registration, health, and AIDS prevention.

- Helps win the release of a captured American pilot in Syria, over 500 foreign diplomats captured by Hussein, and three US POW's in Kosovo.

- Aids the battle against apartheid in S. Africa by successfully getting American business and banks to divest their investments there.

- Tours the continent of Africa as a special US envoy to work on the spread of democracy.

Now, I'm really done.

Duemellon

10 Dec 2003, 05:36 PM

Now, I'm really done. good luck DP on that "being done" bit since you started a fiery discussion with the BS. He'll find a way to jab & poke you just right. It actually becomes an endearing feature after 50-55 of 'em.could someone tell me the time elapsed from when the cops realized mr. jones was in distress to when the emt's arrived.

&

the tape was only 6 minutes long....it was more like 2, but i haven't watched the tape recently enough to confirm. now my mental information is old. The video we got to see was much longer as it also included the trip of the cruiser to that WC and the arrival of CPR to the point where they were placing him on the gurney. I think, last time I said it was something like 3-4 minutes. The fight was over at 6:02, the cops realized something was wrong, and the EMS showed up at around 6:05 or later.

As for JJ vs. MLK, it's the same as Jimi Hendrix & JFK vs. Aretha Franklin & Nixon.

JH & JFK died when they were at the top of their game or just starting to decline, they reached instant martydom, or at least sainthood. Aretha & Nixon stayed around long enough to fizzle, fuck up, and attempt comebacks, they will die with notice for their later life more than for their immediate impact.

JJ is what MLK would've become if he had lived, sure not word-for-word, but MLK was going along the same way. I think to villify JJ, ignore Shuttlesworth, and sanctify MLK, places too much emphasis on "what have you done for me lately" and is not a good reflection of what contributions they made which were sweepingly positive & lasting and definitely is not overlooking their less impactful and temporal failings & misadventures.

BigSugar

10 Dec 2003, 07:26 PM

Dave....agree to disagree. that's all. i read more than most any other 5 people combined. all sources. i have a rather broad base of knowledge on which i've formed my opinions and beliefs. at 34, i'm pretty set in my ways for sure. the "blind squirrel" comment was more tongue-in-cheek than maybe it should have been....and i recognize that he has done some good in many areas.....it doesn't change my overall opinion of Jesse. and yes. i've shaken the man's hand. we didn't chat and all that shit, but if you have to actually meet and hang out with someone before you can form an opinion of them, then i guess everyone here should just be quiet about Bush, right? (who btw i met as well at the Inaugural Ball...nice fella.)

agree to disagree. that's all. still love you, love the hair.

Sovrana

10 Dec 2003, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by BigSugar
i read more than most any other 5 people combined.

I truly doubt this since your response to EVERY single current events/political article linked on these threads clearly indicates that you fail to read much beyond the first paragraph. After the first few sentences you try to wow the rest of us with your attempts to deduce what the rest of the article is about and argue against it.

*whisper* psst....just for the record, when you do this you appear to be an illiterate arogant fool to those of us here who actually read the articles in their entirety.

so much for a "broad base of knowledge" unless of course you compare yourself to that "nice fella" Bush :rolleyes:

but hey! I'm just one of those intellectual liberal types...so what do I know?

slow-dog

10 Dec 2003, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Sovrana

*whisper* psst....just for the record, when you do this you appear to be an illiterate arogant fool

Well then you two should get along splendidly. ;)

Actually, I don't think you're illiterate. But if you're going to make the accusation, at least spell-check the rest of your post.......

That's sheer "arogance".

BigSugar

10 Dec 2003, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Sovrana
I truly doubt this since your response to EVERY single current events/political article linked on these threads clearly indicates that you fail to read much beyond the first paragraph. After the first few sentences you try to wow the rest of us with your attempts to deduce what the rest of the article is about and argue against it.

*whisper* psst....just for the record, when you do this you appear to be an illiterate arogant fool to those of us here who actually read the articles in their entirety.

so much for a "broad base of knowledge" unless of course you compare yourself to that "nice fella" Bush :rolleyes:

but hey! I'm just one of those intellectual liberal types...so what do I know?

LOL. just like you Sovrana. bringing a knife to a gun fight. i thought we got over name-calling in the 3rd grade sweety. i guess you were left behind. why don't you try and wow me with something substantive instead of personal attacks. then we can chat. i'll bet you are a really nice person once you pull that gigantic stick out of your ass....

ps: not to be a dick (*well, ok, just a little), but it's "arrogant". as in "I'm an arrogant asshole, and you Sovrana are a fucknut." see.......isn't that so much better? love you. :)

Duemellon

11 Dec 2003, 06:48 AM

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Bronzetree

11 Dec 2003, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Sovrana
I truly doubt this since your response to EVERY single current events/political article linked on these threads clearly indicates that you fail to read much beyond the first paragraph. After the first few sentences you try to wow the rest of us with your attempts to deduce what the rest of the article is about and argue against it.

*whisper* psst....just for the record, when you do this you appear to be an illiterate arogant fool to those of us here who actually read the articles in their entirety.

so much for a "broad base of knowledge" unless of course you compare yourself to that "nice fella" Bush :rolleyes:

but hey! I'm just one of those intellectual liberal types...so what do I know?

I'd pretty much removed myself from the conversation because I had nothing more to say...until this post. Wow. What a huge load of crap.

First, I don't know if we're reading the same posts, but Sug generally comes to the table prepared, his OPINION just happens to differ from yours.

Second, your insult in paragraph two was way off base. Arrogant? Maybe. An illiterate fool? I don't think so.

Third, I'm not exactly a Bush supporter, but just because someone like Sug doesn't feel the need to snipe every single thing the man has done since day one of his tenure in office is no need to make him out like some knuckle-dragging mongoloid who blindly follows his Commander in Chief.

And last but not least, intellectual liberal type, huh? Maybe I'm reading into it a bit, but it appears you feel this label brings some kind of air of superiority with it. Sorry, but intellectuals can usually state their case without personal insults. Looks like you failed.

weezer6

11 Dec 2003, 11:37 AM

i'm still confused on some issues. it has been mentioned by some that they feel the cops did not start cpr soon enough, and at one point in time it seems to me that during a Megs post, it was mentioned that his heart may have been still beating, and that chest compressions would have been a bad thing. i don't recall, and haven't found yet, anything that clears all this up. are there published accounts of the police statements as to what they determined was the problem? i think i've read all the links posted in this thread, and i was pretty sure that the cause of death was an irregular heart beat, most likely brought about by the stress of the situation. i'll look back through some stuff, but if there is confusion as to whether mr. jones was breathing, having trouble breathing, or whether he had a faint heartbeat, irregular heartbeat, or no heartbeat after the fact, i'm sure it may have been hard to diagnose at the time it all happened.

Stine

11 Dec 2003, 12:11 PM

Holy shite this thread is still going?

weezer6

11 Dec 2003, 12:21 PM

reread my post and show me where i said it was ok to sit there and watch someone who has stopped breathing. without typing the whole thing over, i'm pretty sure that i stated there seems to be different versions of what happened. is it stated, proven fact that mr. jones completely stopped breathing at a certain time? i'm not saying it is or it isn't, i just want to know. is it proven that his heart STOPPED beating at a particular moment? is it stated and proven that the police were able to clearly determine all this at the instant it all happened. the reason i ask this is because knowing how to perform cpr is different than knowing when it is appropriate to use it. i've had cpr training numerous times, and you don't just start performing it on anyone lying on the ground. if it was hard to tell what was going on with mr. jones' condition, the cops, thinking that it would be a minute or two until the resue team was there, might have decided to let the professionals handle it, instead of doing something wrong.

now before you say that i'm full of shit and uncaring, let me tell you that i'm not saying the cops did everything right, nor everything wrong. i'm just stating all kinds of things can factor in to what went down that night. when i see people on this thread put the blinders on, pick who they want to blame, and then selectively use information to prove their point, while ignoring other factors, it irritates me.

also, before some one rips me about the video or my facts, i'm websensed at work, live in dayton, and have dial up at home, so none of the video links i've found work on any computer i currently use. all i've seen is what is on dayton news. i don't have cable either.

IPrayForSound

11 Dec 2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
there's golf to be played and tennis to be served up.Oh sure...rip on the "whitest" sports out there.*

*I realize that men's golf and women's tennis are pretty much being dominated by black folks, but I like stereotypes...or something like that

IPrayForSound

11 Dec 2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
lol, silly boy. I was doing the whole sam wyche quote thing Ah, how quickly we (try our damnedest to) forget Sam Wyche...my bad.

BigSugar

11 Dec 2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
lol, silly boy. I was doing the whole sam wyche quote thing

The next person who throws anything onto the boards, i want you to point them out and i want them tossed outta here!! You're not on the Cincymusic boards, YOU'RE ON THE WOXY BOARDS!!!!

weezer6

11 Dec 2003, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
how about this-- i'll let you find your own information and you can draw your own conclusions.

from what i saw, one of the policemen yells "he's not breathing" (but he has a pulse).

go from there, i guess, i dunno, whatever.

whatever man. there's golf to be played and tennis to be served up.

and about the "ignoring evidence" thing...oh you don't even want to get me started.

at any rate, find out as much information as you can, then try to discern what you feel was appropriate and what wasn't.

peace

i'll look up and find what i can, i just figured that, you know, since it was a foregone conclusion that the police are to blame, the system and procedures and all that need changing, that those facts are readily available, and actually known by the resident authorities posting on the subject.

from what you saw, did another police officer verify, and say something to the effect of "yes, you are right, he's not breathing," or did you just conclude that since someone said it, it is correct? it is kind of nitpicking, but hey, isn't that what we are supposed to be doing to get to the bottom of this?

weezer6

11 Dec 2003, 02:38 PM

according to this article, http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/12/02/timeline.pdf
only 1.5 minutes elapsed from the time mr. jones' vital signs were taken and when the paramedics arrived. only 1 minute from their declaration regarding mr. jones' breathing. it also stated that the paramedics started cpr within a minute, not immediately, within a minute. is this procedure, and if it is, can this procedure be blamed for mr. jones' death?

weezer6

11 Dec 2003, 03:27 PM

so you are off the cops?

Fitz

11 Dec 2003, 03:56 PM

um, not one but many things can be blamed for his death.

the socio-economic conditions that are the main cause for obesity, drug use, crime, the media view on these topics, the police tactics used in criminal cases, etc.

trying to blame one force for these incidences is useless and gets no where.

want to solve the problem, try pushing for healthcare, affordable housing, adequate policing, treatment instead of jail, reliable and useful public transportation, responsible city planning, quality education, etc. (the list can go one, pick one and work towards it).

looking at this one incident and seeing what we can do about the police, the paramedics, etc is like giving a cancer patient Tylenol for the pain.

Duemellon

11 Dec 2003, 05:42 PM

when i see people on this thread put the blinders on, pick who they want to blame, and then selectively use information to prove their point, while ignoring other factors, it irritates me.When I see peole on this thread put the blinders on, pick who they want to defend, and then selectively use information to prove their point, while ignoring other factors, it irriatates me.

Your chosen stance implies that you're searching for ways to say the police followed appropriate procedures, acted responsibly, or at least should be forgiven for proletarian mistakes. I refuse to hold the police, the guys with guns, lights, tickets, and the right to kill, to the same standards of behavior, decision making, and pressurized decision making as you or me.the reason i ask this is because knowing how to perform cpr is different than knowing when it is appropriate to use it.and the CPD are trained for these life saving techniques coupled with the expecation of being able to determine those differences. It's not enough to look at them and say "Hey, maybe they couldn't tell the difference. I'm aware of the difference, but maybe they weren't." and then absolve them of guilt, or state they were performing at the same level of life-saving technique competence as you or me Ah, how quickly we (try our damnedest to) forget Sam Wyche...my bad.I liked Sam. Always have. Sure, he was emotional and headstrong, but as well as being a detriment it was also a feature. I miss the ever-quotable coaches. Who silenced them? Where are the Yogi Berras, Tommy LaSordas, and Maddens now? from what you saw, did another police officer verify, and say something to the effect of "yes, you are right, he's not breathing," or did you just conclude that since someone said it, it is correct? it is kind of nitpicking, but hey, isn't that what we are supposed to be doing to get to the bottom of this? From what I saw, no. No one verified. No one else acted for a few seconds. When it was suggested they turn him on his side many assisted, but then returned to a stance of onlookers. This continues to demonstrate how unprepared the cops were for the situation.

As for that 1-2 minute response, I guess that depends no when you start the stopwatch. As I said, I saw that vid more than a week ago now. I do remember them being done with the scuffle, recognizing something was wrong, and the EMS showing up considerable time afterwards 2-4 mintues.

Fight over 6:02, EMS at 6:05. Maybe that's when I noticed EMS actually attending. I guess you could say they got there at 6:04, meaning the time their vehicle rounded the corner, and maybe start counting at the time the 1st cop finally stated "He's not breathing".

You can see the cop's reaction and why he became concerned on the video at around 6:03.

weezer6

11 Dec 2003, 08:22 PM

well if i'm defending, than you must be the accuser. i'm reacting to your action, which in this case, is blaming the system, mainly the police. if your accusations were logical and were based on the accumulation of all the facts, i wouldn't be giving you shit.

riddle me this: the professionals, the paramedics, show up. they are trained in assessing these type situations. yet they chose not to immediately begin cpr. why would they do that? according to you, the police should have started right away, than why not hold that standard to the pros? i don't get it. why aren't you blowing the paramedics out of the water? you seem to be predisposed to blaming the fuzz.

Duemellon

11 Dec 2003, 09:24 PM

riddle me this: the professionals, the paramedics, show up. they are trained in assessing these type situations. yet they chose not to immediately begin cpr. uhm... i am not aware of when I said this, and if I ever did it was surely a typo. They immediately administered life-saving measures.is blaming the system, mainly the police. and what part am I blaming the cops for?

fighting back? or the WAY they were fighting back?

checking on him? or not doing near enough to try to save him?

They reminded me of that Ewok in RotJ that, after the explosion, their buddy died. Did that Ewok try to save him? No, he just shook him a few times and began to mourn.

Stupid fuckin furball, try saving his life, not shaking him awake. He's injured, not taking a nap.
if your accusations were logical and were based on the accumulation of all the facts, i wouldn't be giving you shit. where is my errant fact?

Cops saw he was in peril and basically stood there with minimal reaction and no considerable life-saving techniques were administered.

Are you still going to claim that they did all they should have to try to save Skip's life?

EMS left the scene at about 6:01a, did not return and begin assisting Skip until 6:04-05.

Again, are you going to say that EMS did all they could to save Skip's life?

It is well known by anyone who is seriously overweight that they cannot breath when laying on their stomach especially if their hands are placed behind their back, and if someone was kneeling on their back, they're done for

another fact.

how can you overlook these clearly demonstrated actions in the video and seem to say the police are faultless, or, at most: "human"? These aren't just Average-Joe citizens/w badges, and their responsibilities and their training should match their position of power. Our expectations should be proportional to their accountability and responsibilities.

weezer6

11 Dec 2003, 10:20 PM

i didn't bother to read past your opening statement. your super cool yellow type doesn't help either. my statement regarding time comes from the timeline the cinci enquirer laid out, that i linked to in an earlier post. i never claimed you said it. according to their timeline, they stated that within a minute of arrival, the fd started cpr. now since they were breaking down their timeline to 30 second intervals, had it happened within the first 30 seconds they would have put up that time. had it happened immediately, they would have said immediately, one can assume. now your resources may be better than that of the paper, i don't know. i'm more inclined to buy their timeline.

so to sum it up, the last time i checked, within a minute does not equal immediately. get your shit straight and try again.

Duemellon

12 Dec 2003, 07:01 AM

so to sum it up, the last time i checked, within a minute does not equal immediately. get your shit straight and try again. so not only am I full of shit, but it's not even together?

I gotta see the Dr.i didn't bother to read past your opening statement. your super cool yellow type doesn't help either. wow, arguing before you even hear the case.

u said:why would someone risk getting in close contact with someone who was just trying to beat their ass, and administer cpr? then I noted EMS did not hesitate to begin life-saving measures. They assessed him, and did what they could to attempt save him. They didn't uncuff him, they didn't worry about him biting, they just dove in when they decided what to do.

I noticed that after I noted that, your stance about "not risking it" stopped.it sounded to me that those administering were being a little cautious, and for good reason. instead you went back to it. Even though the non-law-enforcement team dove right in. Do you bother reading other's rebuttals?i didn't bother to read past your opening statement. your super cool yellow type doesn't help either.oh, that explains it.

I'm done, if you toss out a claim, or especially a rebuttal to something specifically that I've said, and then don't even read what I have to say why not make the "Weezer's One-Sided Rhetorical Rant" thread? That way we know you aren't interested in a discussion, you're just interested in trying to convince others by fillabustering or steamrolling the conversation with accusations of lies and bias.get your shit straight and try again. and for the record, I did not get this personal with you. And when I did say that were emotional, I at least had the decency to read your original post as well as your response to it.

weezer6

12 Dec 2003, 07:58 AM

due, people stop trying to explain stuff to you, or as you would put it, take a stance, because generally, it's a waste of time. if i was to sit here and type up a response to your statements below, that would be a waste of time.

i was discussing some of this stuff with my wife, and it made me think of how i would describe you. i told her, you're the kind of dude that would tell me my preference of McDonald's over Burger King is due to my "inner racist", and all part of GWB's secret plan with oil industry top dogs to take over the world.

you should be able to dissect this post into about 3-4 quotes. but prove me wrong, make it 2 or 5.

Duemellon

12 Dec 2003, 09:44 AM

due, people stop trying to explain stuff to you, or as you would put it, take a stance, because generally, it's a waste of time. yeah, that must be why me and BT had a discussion in this thread. What came of it? Bitter words tossed about and dissmissive claims of being single-minded or biased? Nope. He said his, i said mine, I told him what I saw, he said what he feels, and, well, we aren't saying:
get your shit straight and try again.

if your accusations were logical and were based on the accumulation of all the facts, i wouldn't be giving you shit.

when i see people on this thread put the blinders on, pick who they want to blame, and then selectively use information to prove their point, while ignoring other factors, it irritates me.You, however, are still under the assumption that all I want to do is be dismissive of you. You're the one who won't even review the FACTS that I'm basing my opinion on. originally posted by Stine
Holy shite this thread is still going? nope, not anymore because of Weez's decision to become belligerent and dismiss any attempts at expressing a point. Thanks Weez.

weezer6

12 Dec 2003, 10:22 AM

due, you fail to understand why i give you the business, in particular. i give you the business because you get on the board, and TELL US ALL HOW IT IS. For you to accurately tell me how it is, i personally would be more receptive if it came from someone with some experience in the particular situation at topic. To the best of my knowledge, you aren't a trained police officer. you have never been in a fight as an adult. you have seen one or some in high school. have you personally had your life threatened? not that you've told me. for you to get on this board and determine that what a police officer or officers did or should have done, in a situation you've only read about, and then pass judgement on them, well, i think you are overstepping your bounds. you know what? why don't you join the force? change it from the inside. they need someone to show them how it's done. if you're as concerned and as dedicated as you seem to be, that would be the ticket.

now you do raise good questions, that need to be answered. but most of the time you answer your own question. in this case, have you personally interviewed each police officer, to see what he was thinking? i also notice you make no distinction between rendering first aid on someone who just falls over and someone who falls over after attacking you. one would think more caution would be used in the latter. maybe you see no difference because you lack the experience, if no one has ever attacked you, you haven't had the chance to get scared shitless in that situation. i could go on and on.

dcXhc

12 Dec 2003, 10:32 AM

After 13 pages, 243 posts and over 3,300 views....has anybody decided whether to riot tonight or tomorrow?

BigSugar

12 Dec 2003, 10:36 AM

i've been rioting all week! where the crap have you been.....

weezer6

12 Dec 2003, 10:38 AM

i'm going on vacation in 53 minutes, so i'll probably miss it.

Duemellon

12 Dec 2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
clearly one doesn't have to have the experience to criticize things.

because yall aren't black but I see no lack of comments about how I should act and how things affect black people.

peace ouch.for you to get on this board and determine that what a police officer or officers did or should have done, in a situation you've only read about, and then pass judgement on them, well, i think you are overstepping your bounds reversed "ditto", if you want to point fingers, face the mirror kid.

Would you have shot some randomly picked out lady in a parking lot with a sniper rifle just to watch them die from hundreds of feet away?

or are you going to crawl back into your hole about "I never experienced brainwashing, growing up outside of the US, or being trained as a sniper, so I'm unqualified to make that judgement call."

How's about:
Would you have driven your car directly into a Chinese fast food resturant when you're going 40mph?

Oh, again, you can't make that call b/c you don't own a LaSabre, you aren't 5'8", and you have no experience living in Los Aladina, California.

vinegurl

14 Dec 2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by rightstarter
yeah, cause we know juries who often determine the fate of young black males in court cases are *neeever* made up of middle aged white people who haven't the slightest bit of knowledge about the black experience.

are you saying middle aged white people only know their world, and do not care to try and understand or sympathise with another race or age or culture? Then you just as well should say that young black males do not have the slightest bit of knowledge about the white experience. If these are true statements as you deem them to be well it sounds like segregation is in order if it is not already.

Duemellon

14 Dec 2003, 10:54 AM

It's a shame we're told by popular society, historical episodes, and the common idioms, that we can't relate to someone of a different race when a situation involves even the slightest bit of race.

BigSugar

14 Dec 2003, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
Take an animal that lives on land part of the time and in the water part of the time. Compare with an animal that stays on land all the time and never goes in the water and only occasionally sees it. The first animal can obviously make better judgements about what's going on on land, than the second animal can make judgements about what's going on in the water.

unless of course that land animal has a whole cadre of land/water animals posting on music message boards telling them how they should think and act about things. :)

wait.......we are talking about internet-ready platypuses (or is that platypussies?;) here, right?

now i am confused.

davepurcell

15 Dec 2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by vinegurl
Then you just as well should say that young black males do not have the slightest bit of knowledge about the white experience.

Not true. Our society is still predominantly white, statistically, socially, and culturally.

Statistically: whites make up about 77% of the US population, blacks about 13% (2000 Census). And even that doesn't get at the degree of segregation -- most urban centers are highly segregated. Cinti, for example, was the sixth most segregated large metropolitan area in 2000. One of the main measures used is the dissimilarity index, on which Cinti was 8th. In short, 74% of the Cinti population would have to move for each neighborhood to have the same racial breakdown as the city overall.

Socially, our daily lives, via our neighborhoods and social networks, are structured such that we have very little interracial interacdtion. Ask yourself how often you have meaningful interaction with someone who's not white. Most Americans can go through their entire lives without having significant interraction with a black person (and given the patterns of housing segregation -- aka white flight -- it's not accidental). One of my nieces, who grew up in a Northern Ky suburb, had NEVER interacted with a black person until she went to the U of Kentucky.

Culturally, despite the influences of hip-hop and such, American culture is still predominantly white.

In sum, it's a white world and blacks learn to live in it. Blacks have to learn to negotiate a white world in order to get by in the US -- but whites can get by with no problem without ever learning the first thing about blacks.

If these are true statements as you deem them to be well it sounds like segregation is in order if it is not already.

Segregation *is* the order, not in legal/official ways ("blacks can't eat here") but certainly in social and cultural ways.

dp

BigSugar

15 Dec 2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by rightstarter
love you, dave.

easy now, that'll start a whole "homosexual rights" thread, and we can't even stay cordial on this one! :)

donetrawk

15 Dec 2003, 01:15 PM

Yeah, I've probably said this before, but Dave "gets it"...

BigSugar

15 Dec 2003, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
drum-drum-drum-CYMBAL

more like kick - snare (flam) - CRASH :D

Yeah, I've probably said this before, but Dave "gets it"...

there you go with the gay jokes again....geez!! :rolleyes:

just because dave's smarter than all of us combined doesn't mean we can't still give him shit for being a goddamned hippie! a hippie with a masters and soon to be PhD, but still a sweaty damn hippie. :) (ps dave....i love you too....platonically....mostly....).

Bronzetree

22 Mar 2004, 08:29 PM

I actually caught the live press conference on TV. Allen went through a pretty detailed video presentation using the camera on the police cruiser as well as the White Castle surveillance cameras, reconstructing an accurate timeline of events.

I'm not remotely happy that Jones died as a result of this confrontation, but the evidence clearly shows that his attack of the officers was unprovoked, and that officers struck in the areas they were supposed to (there was a procedural chart that showed where officers were to strike if they were only trying to inflict minimal damage, and it's consistent with the bruises on Jones's body).

The only major thing I found fault with in Allen's presentation was that he shows examples of Jones allegedly going after a gun and a baton. In both instances, Jones was definitely the underdog in the conflict and it appears his actions were merely instinctively defensive. Whether I was right or wrong, I'd likely stick my hand up to block a baton hitting me in the back as well. Allen's insistance on making sure everyone knew that Jones had committed the crimes of "attempted robbery" (which is how the alleged going for the gun and baton are viewed) was silly.

They kind of glazed over the fact the cops sat there while Jones was thought to not be breathing. I don't think they can reconstruct that portion enough to exonerate or charge the officers, unfortunately.

I'm on the fence. The timeline shows Jones was unprovoked, but there's no real accounting of the officers' negligence when they thought he might not be breathing.

72valiant

22 Mar 2004, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
i love you.

not because you're on the fence, cause that'll put wire marks in your balls after-while.

but because you're actually thinking through the situation, and not coming in with a pro or anti-cop attitude, or a pro or anti-black attitude.

I used to kid about spooning with you, but I'm serious now.

awww. er, i mean ewww. well, i am on the fence on this one.

monkey neck

22 Mar 2004, 09:16 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter
i love you.

not because you're on the fence, cause that'll put wire marks in your balls after-while.

but because you're actually thinking through the situation, and not coming in with a pro or anti-cop attitude, or a pro or anti-black attitude.

I used to kid about spooning with you, but I'm serious now.

Uh, well I was on the fence on this, but I'm clear off of it now. Thanks RS for helping me make up my mind...and in a hurry!:p

Duemellon

22 Mar 2004, 10:28 PM

As I have always been saying about this one...

the police were following their procedures.

When are we going to realize that our procedures suck?

Bronzetree

22 Mar 2004, 11:35 PM

Originally posted by Duemellon
As I have always been saying about this one...

the police were following their procedures.

When are we going to realize that our procedures suck?

I can't say that I agree. How else are the police supposed to defend themselves in close quarters? Sure, the tasers they're carrying around now are shown to be effective when they've got some distance between themselves and the perp, but when you're attacked head on, it's the club. There's no time to dig anything out of the trunk. Pepper spray might work, but if you're taken by surprise, it's probably more difficult to pull that out of its holster than the baton.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Duemellon

23 Mar 2004, 07:45 AM

Sorry, but when the procedures allow the blows that I saw in the entire video, then the procedure sucks.

When procedures instruct you to beat a guy when he's down, it sucks.

When it says "get on top of a guy who ain't moving & who's so round even YOU can't get his hands behind his back" the procedure sucks.

It's like telling the officers they have the right to get ill in any way they want and when they do get crazy-ill on someone we simply say "Look, it was in the rules because there are no rules."

Hey, ppl will say I'm bashing the officers. Dudes & dudettes, I'm not. I'm bashing the policies and culture. Always have been. Black cops, white cops, and Hispanic cops, all do the same. Why? Because they're cops and they get the same ambiguous training.

Hey, shit fell apart when Skip swung. The cops needed to do something, but if you saw the entire video you'd see moments when you're like WTF mate?

Dilly Pho

23 Mar 2004, 08:01 AM

I was just wondering what happened with ole Nate Jones the other day. Is it just me, or have most people already swept this under the rug? All in all, I think it was a sad, unfortunate turn of events, but I don't think that anyone (except, yes, maybe the police standard procedure) is too blame.

So, in short, no big surprise.

By the way, some African-American rights group was going to conduct their own independent autopsy. Anyone know how that turned out?

Bronzetree

23 Mar 2004, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Duemellon
Sorry, but when the procedures allow the blows that I saw in the entire video, then the procedure sucks.

When procedures instruct you to beat a guy when he's down, it sucks.

When it says "get on top of a guy who ain't moving & who's so round even YOU can't get his hands behind his back" the procedure sucks.

Okay, this is not me trying to be a smart ass. I'd like an honest answer, because I have difficulty understanding those with your stance. What do you suggest? How should the procedures change so that the police are still able to protect themselves and subdue the perp at the same time? When a policeman is attacked without warning, in close quarters, how should he defend himself without killing the perp and being able to subdue him at the sme time?

RS, I know and feel where you're coming from, I just have a hard time believing there's a vast conspiracy to hold down black folks by white folks. I think there is definitely racist activity taking place in America and that it needs to cease, but I think it's more ignorance and holdover racism than a conspiracy. I don't think police procedures were written in order to benefit white cops beating down black suspects. They were written so police can defend themselves. If Nate had not lunged at the officers and we ended up with the same result, I'd be right there with you (Roger Owensby comes to mind).

I know the Nate Jones case is just one. Whether you agree with me or not that he was in the wrong and police did what they should have (excluding police procedures, but doing what they SHOULD have), I know for you it's about the alarming rate of dead black men during police confrontations. We've seen far too much of it in this area and I don't have an easy answer. I don't think procedural changes will make it stop. Would placing more black police in areas populated heavily by blacks help, do you think? I know it seems like a band-aid, but do you think it might at least help curtail what we've been seeing?

Duemellon

23 Mar 2004, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by Bronzetree
Okay, this is not me trying to be a smart ass. I'd like an honest answer,
...
When a policeman is attacked without warning, in close quarters, how should he defend himself without killing the perp and being able to subdue him at the same time?already been covered in this thread specifically. I invite you to peruse it, again... [sigh]I just have a hard time believing there's a vast conspiracy to hold down black folks by white folks.its been my argument that it's not a vast conspiracy. That's ludicrous to imagine actually. Heck, even those ppl in power aren't drawing up a blueprint on how to keep the "Black Man down." However, it's not something that just happens.

The conspiracy took place long ago, and was put into our actions between one another. We fight and argue, judge and react, based on inconsequential characteristics and that skews the results.

That's how we are still being racist towards the black man even though we claim we're enlightened. It's those small things that ppl overlook and claim is "just the way it is" or stopped asking for details and why.

BigSugar

23 Mar 2004, 12:26 PM

i think i have a solution: I think the police just need to kill about 15 white people to even things out......every time a black man dies in a police confrontation, the police should just randomly shoot the first white person they see. that way, no racism.

damn, i knew i'd come up with a solution if i just drank enough whiskey. <hic>

Duemellon

23 Mar 2004, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by BigSugar
i think i have a solution: I think the police just need to kill about 15 white people to even things out......every time a black man dies in a police confrontation, the police should just randomly shoot the first white person they see. that way, no racism.

damn, i knew i'd come up with a solution if i just drank enough whiskey. <hic> nope, not proportionate, u'll need to kill about 8 whites per black killed in a way that averages 8.333.. whites/black.

Furthermore, they'll have to kill them in a fashion that appears dubious to whites but clear-cut and agreeable to blacks.

You have your work cut out for you Gabby Johnson.

eyeball

23 Mar 2004, 01:50 PM

see I know how to fix it.

FUCKING STOP IF THE COPS YELL FOR YOU TO! don't run. don't think about it. just fucking stop!

hey I bet most people wont' get beaten to the ground or shot if they stood the fuck still.

I said most. not all!

Duemellon

23 Mar 2004, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by eyeball
I said most. not all! nice qualifier. An important qualifier.

do you like to gamble?

do the odds influence whether or not you gamble? or the stakes?

For me it's the stakes. I don't want to gamble my life. Even if the stakes are at 99% in my favor.

eyeball

23 Mar 2004, 02:05 PM

all I know for sure....and this for absolute sure...I will stop if a cop tells me to.

I will probably get to go home eventually rather than the morgue that way. there is no gamble involved really.

Duemellon

23 Mar 2004, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by eyeball
all I know for sure....and this for absolute sure...I will stop if a cop tells me to.

I will probably get to go home eventually rather than the morgue that way. there is no gamble involved really. r u white? or pass as white more often than not?

really, a rhetorical question.

"The pot is being stirred but the cook pretends not to know"

bluelupis

23 Mar 2004, 02:37 PM

Yes, because we all know that there is a biological stigma in a person of color's (like that? :D) ear that makes them think the word "stop" means "run faster". That's why I always beat my neighbor at red light green light when we were kids. :rolleyes:

Duemellon

23 Mar 2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by bluelupis
Yes, because we all know that there is a biological stigma in a person of color's (like that? :D) ear that makes them think the word "stop" means "run faster". That's why I always beat my neighbor at red light green light when we were kids. :rolleyes: yah see now, that's comedy.

weezer6

23 Mar 2004, 02:58 PM

regardless of whether you are black or white, i wonder what actually makes someone think that running and/or fighting the fuzz works out well? i could see taking the chance to run, but fight the cops? when does that ever have a favorable ending for the civilian? i've never heard anyone, anywhere, bragging about what a great idea they had, instead of complying with the fuzz, they punched him. things went great. he fell down, they walked away, no problems since. does that ever happen?

even if you thought you might get beat down while complying, the odds are still far greater that you won't than if you take a swing at a cop.

daphne

23 Mar 2004, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Duemellon
r u white? or pass as white more often than not?

really, a rhetorical question.

"The pot is being stirred but the cook pretends not to know"

what the hell does any portion of this post mean??????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Duemellon

23 Mar 2004, 07:08 PM

8Originally posted by daphne
what the hell does any portion of this post mean??????? :confused: :confused: :confused: let context be your guide

daphne

23 Mar 2004, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Duemellon
8let context be your guide

okay, well at least now I know what RVA meant by this:

It's that you somehow also know expect us to know exactly what you mean without any explanation on your part-- and that when we don't it's our fault.

Duemellon

23 Mar 2004, 07:39 PM

7Originally posted by daphne
okay, well at least now I know what RVA meant by this: c'mon, this isn't a huge jump of logic here...Originally posted by eyeball
see I know how to fix it.

FUCKING STOP IF THE COPS YELL FOR YOU TO! don't run. don't think about it. just fucking stop!

hey I bet most people wont' get beaten to the ground or shot if they stood the fuck still.

I said most. not all! Originally posted by Duemellon
nice qualifier. An important qualifier.

do you like to gamble?

do the odds influence whether or not you gamble? or the stakes?

For me it's the stakes. I don't want to gamble my life. Even if the stakes are at 99% in my favor. Originally posted by eyeball
all I know for sure....and this for absolute sure...I will stop if a cop tells me to.

I will probably get to go home eventually rather than the morgue that way. there is no gamble involved really. Originally posted by Duemellon
r u white? or pass as white more often than not?you don't know where this one is going?

daphne

23 Mar 2004, 08:01 PM

actually i was more talking about the rest of the post. should have been more clear

Duemellon

23 Mar 2004, 08:36 PM

5Originally posted by daphne
actually i was more talking about the rest of the post. should have been more clear really, a rhetorical question.

"The pot is being stirred but the cook pretends not to know"Why are we going through this exercise? are you trying to make some point? I mean, really. You understand. If you don't understand the metaphor of "the pot is being stirred but the cook pretends not to know" I'll be surprised that you're focusing on that. U'see,... context.

weezer6

23 Mar 2004, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by rightstarter

it's an act of defiance.

now, in nates case, he was defying michael jackson cause he was performing part of the dance from the "Thriller" video, but in other cases, it's defiance.

and of course, context comes into play.

As I so frequently say, disagree if you want, disbelieve if you want, but if you want to understand, and have the answers to these questions, you should listen to me.

um...okay, so i've never actually said that before, but ANYWAY, here it is:

fuck tha police. why? why on earth would a black male have a feeling like that? what in the history of this country would make him say that?

would growing up and having you and people who look like you, and the art forms people who look like you practice, spat on, disrespected and treated as valueless crap,

would that make you hate this society?

and when some supposed dispenser of justice arrived, who himself (or herself) is the doing so as a descendant of those who stole this land from it's inhabitants, ON that land itself, then preached for centuries that it was "discovered", to proclaim that you were "in the wrong"

well do you go quietly? no, fuck that.

and while you might scoff and think, no way is that going through every person's head when they get arrested- well of course it's not.

it's already an instinct, taught by living in this society, from people, black and white, from the racist structures and from a lot of things.

many many many many people do go quietly.
they stop when ordered.

the prisons are full of living uninjured black men who did just that.

the prisons are overflowing with them, so don't get it twisted.

but for some, the bile of resentment rises and they just view it like it's war.

I bet if your daughter, weezer 6, had a granddaughter who was disenfranchised, who was living under a rule(read:government by, structures by) by black people who treated her like shit, had taken this land from both you and the natives whose land it really is,

if the black cops came to get her, YOU would want her to fight.

you and people with that "i don't care" bill o'reilly attitude would fight.

Americans are the fuckin fightinest people around. or rather, people who seem to understand the least why someone would run or fight the cops, seem to be the same people who want to attack other countries when they see fit.

you see cops and probably yourself as this harmless thing.

but you, and they, are not.

no personal attack. i'm just telling you, if you want to understand.

i realize it is an act of defiance. i only posed my question as a response to duemellon, with his weird, new fangled ways of communication, insinuating that the odds for danger were worse for a black man who actually cooperates with police instructions, as oppposed to a black man who fights.

i don't see cops as harmless, either. i actually see them as people who are looking for an excuse to bust my chops. i have to watch my mouth, when i refer to them collectively, around my daughter.

in reference to my daughter, granddaughter or however that went, i wouldn't want them to openly, physically fight. that opens the door for the cops to win. you give them a reason to beat the shit out of you, therefore, they win. what good does that do to anyone's cause? what good did it do for the big fella that had a heart attack. none. he's dead. should we claim he fought the good fight? well, no. he picked the wrong time and occasion and method to "fuck the police". the police didn't attack him, he attacked the police. wrong way to make the statement.